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A Riddle Using Deductive Reasoning


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#121 wibble

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 04:05 PM

Aww aren't you two sweet ;)



#122 what if

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 06:19 PM

Nobody can solve your neurotic anguish except you. I propose that it is a CHOICE that is your problem, not the data you have. You haven't made a CHOICE as to what the data really means.

what does the data mean to me?
as crazy as it sounds, it sounds as if the cell has a mind of its own.
therefor one of my sources is wrong.
genetic regulatory networks apparently do not follow a strict logic

You're right, it can't be random any more than a computer program is random. The answer sits under your nose every day, and every day you don't see it sitting there.

i believe that some randomness must be allowed because you cannot explain the human mind with a set of equations, no matter how complex.

But don't be confused - your confusion isn't my confusion. While you are forever juggling with these issues, I am not, because I have made a CHOICE that I am certain that God created the overtly miraculous. I am confident He did. I am not insecure over it like I used to be. That's what I sense from you, "What If", and invitation. An invitation to come with you and wrangle over these issues, mentally. But how can I when I am sure of the answer, but you aren't? That is why when you stir the hornets nest, nothing is roused in me.

hornets nest?
what hornets nest?
it doesn't matter to me what the outcome is.
what matters is the data and how it's interpreted.
right now the data looks pretty thin for abiogenesis, and science has no plausible scenario for how it could happen.

But ultimately I believe only God Himself can give this to us, by revelation, where He basically just gives you 100% assurance that He created the universe, so it's not all a matter of intellectualism.

i believe god is directly related to intellectualism, intelligence is impossible to define with science.
even if science does recreate life, there is still the matter of intelligence.
this is the primary reason i say one of my sources is wrong.

For example mostly I believe in creation because of my walks in it. When I walk in the country, I stand in the paths there, absorbing the light and colours of the trees, gazing at each leaf, marvelling at what I am seeing, which is impossible, and yet it exists. Nobody can take that reality away from me by merely showing me data. Can't you see in the wonderful little agile birds, where if you blink you will miss them, a marvelous set-up between the branches of the trees and the birdems? Their little perching feet that wrap around the branches like a little vice.

bask in the glory son, it's yours for the taking.

Don't waste time on the data, and miss the point of it all.

nay, nay, tycho brah.
check out what this dude did.

The data in the cell is just a means to an end.

you know, i bet if the data processing capabilities of each cell of the human body was combined, it would be at least 3 orders of magnitude over the worlds current computing capability.

#123 mike the wiz

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 03:35 AM

Baba luv 4 Wibble! ;) :D



#124 mike the wiz

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 03:54 AM

 

 

What If: bask in the glory son, it's yours for the taking.

 

That's very kind of you Sir. I shall leave a leaf or two for you to absorb. ;) 

 

 

 

What If: as crazy as it sounds, it sounds as if the cell has a mind of its own.

 

It doesn't though, it has no brains, and if it does who made them? It's turtles all the way down.

 

You are trying to put the intelligence inside the creation itself, IMHO. For surely I could say the same of a computer - my laptop runs and does all sorts of things on it's own, does it have a mind of it's own? No it doesn't, the mind isn't inside it, the mind is outside it.

 

The cell has no mind, it is organic parts which you yourself confess are found in nature, molecules made from common atoms.



#125 Mike Summers

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 09:28 AM

It doesn't though, it has no brains, and if it does who made them? It's turtles all the way down.


When they mapped the gene genome, they were expecting one gene for every protein. They assumed they would find 100,000 genes. They were the very much taken aback when they only initially found arround 30, 000 genes. At last count it was down to around 19,000. They were perplexed. How could the cell "create" 100,000 genes with such a small amount genetic code?

\Moreover, they discovered there were some plants and had more genes thanm humans. Additionally same genetic code coded for entirely different functions in different species.

A blurb in a recent symposium on life featuring several famous scientists concluded that there were 14 or so "genetic languages." As you may know there are over 5000 human languages that we can learn. Nevertheless, all humans share the same information. We would not be able to translate languages into other languages without the constant of information. We may speak and write different code but it all gets associated to the same information in all of us--so we can understand. We canunderstan only because information or meaning is the same in all our "minds".

As I have said on several occasions in my posts, Claudie E. Shannon and his seminal mathematical theory of information (he is the reigning guru of information theory) ambiguously defined information and code as the same thing. They are not. Code is physical, such as black and white on paper or audible sound. Information is entirely mental. I have asked for the physics of information. No one has yet to point out
the physics of information--how much a unit of information weighs
its color, its width, height or length? We cannot "see" information. Only things that are alive and intelligent can detect and process information.

You aru are trying to put the intelligence inside the creation itself, IMHO. For surely I could say the same of a computer - my laptop runs and does all sorts of things on it's own, does it have a mind of it's own? No it doesn't, the mind isn't inside it, the mind is outside it.

But you would be wrong. There is no intelligence inside the computer because it is not alive. You are correct saying that computers process data (code). We then interpret the code the compuiter processed to which we have (in a prior mental process associated information).

While most people have forgotten the learneing process they went through to be able to process code (A is for Apple, B is for ball. This is a dog. This is a cat. This is the color blue. This is my my mom. This is my dad. This is a house etc.)

It takes intelligence to process informattion.
Whart the computer generates manipulating code is manipulated code which must associate to in formation in by our mind. It ntelligence to read a book.

There is not enough genetic code in the cell to code for language (over 5000) nor human personality. These functions are learned and acquired after birth.

The cell has no mind, it is organic parts which you yourself confess are found in nature, molecules made from common atoms.

The cell is alive. So far we have not been able to create life as a chemical process. Scientists have assumed that life is caused by a biological chemical process. I have thought of another alternative. I suspect that life, which is common to all plants and animals, manipulates matter--causing biology (life animates matter).

Moreover the Christian faith indicates that life was not created but rather always existed as a feature of the creator God.

#126 mike the wiz

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 11:28 AM

Mike, basically I was saying that there is no intelligence in the cell any more than there is in the computer, but the intelligence is in the mind of the creator of the computer, and the software, etc... I think, "What If" is confusing where the intelligence is. It seems to him as though life on that scale is acting intelligently but I think it is programmed by God, to do what it does, so the intelligence is in God's ability to come up with DNA code, and all of the cellular machinery. 



#127 what if

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 11:28 PM

my "3 orders of magnitude" comment above was a guess, and i'm not sure if the following can be applied or not, but:
“Molecular data storage has the potential to reduce all of those requirements by up to three orders of magnitude,” says Markowitz. If information could be packaged as densely as it is in the genes of the bacterium Escherichia coli, the world's storage needs could be met by about a kilogram of DNA
www.nature.com/news/how-dna-could-store-all-the-world-s-data-1.20496

one kilogram is 2.2 pounds folks.
that is indeed one sobering thought.
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#128 mike the wiz

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 11:50 AM

That's one of the elements of intelligent design you mention, "What If". I wonder if you know which one. I usually list each feature/element of design as part of my I.D argument.

 

It's............"information storage density".

 

The most efficient, best storage device is still DNA, and it is one element of design in technology, which proves that an increase in intelligence, leads to a greater capacity of storage of information. (I use the term information but like Mike Summers, technically I speak of code, as I agree with Mike's logical finding that the information isn't there, only it's representation in the form of code.)

 

Ere long I have stemmed the flow of code that issues from Mike's mouth pertaining to the issue, for I thought he spoke too much of the issue, but now I give him permission to bore us to tears with his theory, if he so wishes. Mike knows I am being humouress, as one time I couldn't shut up the old timer about the issue. ;)

 

In regards to that all I can say is that at this present time, "the ire of the many outweighs the ire of the few" - Mr Koonin Spock. :rotfl3: 

 

On a more serious note, my point is - look back over time with technology in computers. I remember to get a game on one of my old computers, I had to use a device which broke the game into small pieces in a zip file, then with a floppy disc I was so determined to have this game, I put each piece on a floppy disk, I only had a few floppy discs, and it must have took nearly an hour to transport all of the pieces from my brother's computer to mine.

 

Now we just plug in a mass storage device into the usb, and hey presto, the burger that took 30 mins now takes 30 seconds to cook!

 

What does this PROVE? (and I emphasize the word, 'prove').

 

Logically it proves that as time goes on, our storage-density efficiency in our technology, gets closer to DNA, and why does it? What provably causes the better storage density? What is the KNOWN cause?

 

You guessed it - more intelligence and more knowledge. The more we have of both, the closer we get to DNA, so then fill in the blank, if it takes more knowledge and intelligence to get better storage, logically speaking what will it take to get something as good as DNA, which is the best?

 

You guessed it - the greatest possible knowledge and intelligence. Again, this is all provable, I am talking about the known causes of the increase. 

 

KNOWN causes.



#129 Mike Summers

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 10:08 PM

You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb



#130 mike the wiz

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 03:04 AM

Pie Riddle.

 
You have a circle, and you must find out it's circumference.
 
You also have two pies, one is a large one. 
 
One of the pies is genuine. One of the pies will give you the circumference of the circle because the genuine pie's diameter is the radius of the circle.
 
Let us now suppose that we cut the large pie in half, and measure the perimiter of that one half. The perimiter of that half is 200mm which is equal to 100 times greater than the small pie's diameter doubled if we assume that all measurements are in millimetres. 
 
(you can round your answer to the nearest number if you so wish)


#131 Schera Do

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 02:45 AM

[I want to confine my discussion to "x + y" in the source thread of this riddle.]
...

.
H-h-h-h-h-how did that work out, Schera Do?

If you mean, whether the "M-the-W 'x+y' Fallacy" has been violated since the "Use Your '2+2' Logic" thread was created, then, yes, it has worked-out quite well, thanks.

#132 Schera Do

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 02:50 AM

...
Moreover the Christian faith indicates that life was not created but rather always existed as a feature of the creator God.

.
This implies that "the Christian faith" is incomprehensible. Do you agree or disagree?

#133 what if

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 04:01 AM

Information is entirely mental. I have asked for the physics of information. No one has yet to point out
the physics of information--how much a unit of information weighs
its color, its width, height or length?

isn't this like asking what the physics of an idea are?
if so, then the answer must be the various biomolecular changes within the brain associated with this idea.
biomolecules have a height, width, length, and mass.
i'm not sure if you can assign a color to molecules.




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