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Refuting Annihilationism


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#1 Dave

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 07:20 PM

 

This and many other subjects are ridiculously easy to understand so long as the student is

willing enough to do so through a intellectually honest and diligent study of the Holy Bible.

 

Unfortunately, the problem will only persist as there are people too lazy to research

the matter to its logical conclusion, as is evident in (for example) some of the posts in this

thread.

 

So, please research the matter instead of misrepresenting God by posting misleading information

such as "punishing the wicked by torturing them throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity" non-

sense.

 

--Bmaxdlux from the Value of a Human Being topic in the Miscellaneous forum with a challenge to rightly divide scripture concerning eternal torment in the lake of fire.

 

This essay is my answer to the challenge posed by Bmaxdlux (hereinafter, Max) concerning eternal torment of the unsaved, which came up in the thread titled, Value of a Human Being, in the Miscellaneous forum.

 

Max holds to the annihilationism interpretation of scripture that says that the wicked are cast into the lake of fire where they are completely burned up, once and done, hence the term annihilated.

 

I hold to the clear meaning of God’s word in scripture that the wicked suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire.

 

Both views appear to be supported by scripture. But I will show why the doctrine of annihilationism is a false doctrine, and that the holders of that doctrine misinterpret the scripture that they believe upholds their view.

 

To begin:

 

In order to fully understand and interpret scripture used by both sides in this debate one must accurately parse the expressions used. The problem is that although a word in English might render itself with one meaning that we associate with it in common usage, it might, and very likely will, have a different, but distinctly precise, meaning in the biblical languages of Greek and Hebrew.

 

It is the misinterpretation of many of the key expressions in scripture that leads to many of the false doctrines floating around in the church today.

 

The one that is pertinent to our discussion is misinterpreting the meaning of the words death, die, dead, etc.

 

In English common usage when somebody dies, from our earthly perspective he or she ceases to exist … is non-existent, or annihilated, so to speak. One can’t be faulted for thinking this is so when seeing this word in print.

 

But someone who preaches what he believes to be an important doctrine must be sensitive to varied usage of words in scripture, and must discern that the common-usage meaning might not be God’s meaning, and interpret it correctly.

 

In the Greek language of the New Testament, and biblically speaking, death is never defined as extinction, annihilation, non-existence or unconsciousness.

 

You must let this sink in before proceeding: Death in the Bible is always pictured as the separation between two things.

 

I’m going to dwell on this for a bit because if one has a clear understanding of the different kinds of “death” in scripture, and which state of the person that experiences the death, most of the problems with annihilationism simply go away.

 

Also, keep in mind something that is related to this, and that is extremely important: Make sure you recognize whether scripture concerning death refers to death of the body, death of the soul or death of the spirit. Anyone who is confused about which of the states of man has experienced death simply will never be able to understand the verses in which death appears.

 

Also, fixing the correct time of events referenced in scripture is vitally important to not misinterpreting.

 

For example, Max referenced Malachi 4:1 as one of his examples of scripture that supported annihilationism.

 

 

Malachi 4:1

 

“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” (Max’s bolds)

 

Max’s comment on this verse:

 

This verse clearly indicates that there is a particular day (future tense, meaning it's not happening right now) in which the wicked will be introduced into the Lake of Fire and that fire will destroy them completely. (His emphases)

 

The problem with Max’s interpretation of this verse is one of context and timing. Malachi 4:1 does not refer to the wicked being cast into the lake of fire. That comes much later.

 

What Malachi 4:1 does refer to is the Day of the Lord, which is Christ’s second returning at the end of the seven-year tribulation. That return involves the burning up of the earth, and the cleansing of the earth of the wicked who survived the tribulation. It ushers in the 1,000-year earthly reign of Christ, called the millennium, in which only the saved in Christ can enter.

 

The wicked do indeed get burned up. Their bodies! Let that sink in. Not their souls nor their spirits. Those will be dealt with later during the second death. Their earthly bodies will indeed cease to exist on earth. But they, meaning their souls and spirits, have not been annihilated.

 

Do you see how important it is to fix the right time referenced in scripture as well as to whom or what is being acted on?

 

Malachi 4:1 is simply and clearly not a supporting verse for the false doctrine of annihilationism.

 

To continue with the explanation of death meaning separation:

 

Before I start, I’ll remind of what most already know. A person’s body is his or her physical presence on this earth. The soul is a person’s mind, will and emotions … basically what makes up a person’s consciousness, which can live on beyond his or her physical death. And a person’s spirit is the part that connects one to God, which also can live on without a body or soul. These short definitions will be important later.

 

In short:

 

Physical death is a separation of the body and soul, as in Eccl 12:7.

Spiritual death is a separation of man from God, as in Isa 59:1-2

Second death is a spiritual separation of man from God, as in Rev 21:18, 22:14-15

Dead to sin is a separation of Christians from sin, as in Rom 6:2, 11 and Heb 7:26

Dead to law is a separation of Christians from law, as in Rom 7:4

Marriage dissolved by death is separation of man from woman, as in 1 Cor 7:39

 

Note that of the six examples of death only two involve a physical death of the body. It’s important for annihilationists to keep that in mind when parsing scripture to support their view.

 

For example, they are quick to jump on death of the wicked anywhere in scripture as total extinction of a person’s body, soul and spirit.

 

With that in mind, how do they deal with the event in Gen 2:17?

 

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (My bold)

 

They did eat of the tree in Gen 3:6. They didn’t die, but lived on for centuries and populated the earth.

 

Did God lie? Did God change his mind? Is God capricious?

 

No. They did surely die a spiritual death that day, banished from the garden, forever outside of God’s presence.

 

Annihilationists would say, “That’s obvious!” And it is. But they then fail to provide the same depth of meaning to other scripture that would be equally as obvious to them were it not for the built-in annihilationism bias they bring to their reading.

 

The lesson here is that one must strive to understand the relationship between death and the state of person that is subject to that death. A totally misconstrued view of doctrine results from not doing that properly.

 

Here’s another verse where refusing to correctly parse a death event results in much confusion.

 

 

Rev 21:8:

 

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

This verse is often used to support the annihilationist’s view. On the surface, it seems to.

 

However, the word for death here is thanatos in the Greek.

 

Here is Strong’s Concordance translation for thanatos in context:

 

“The misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after death of the body in hell. The miserable state of the wicked dead in hell. In the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin …” (My bold)

 

I’ll have a section on the second death below, but suffice it to say that Rev 21:8 does not support the annihilationist’s view, as it was never intended to.

 

Another example provided by Max:

 

 

Matthew 25:46

 

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

Max’s comment on this verse:

 

(The results of the punishment are eternal): but (only) the righteous into life eternal.  

Only the righteous get eternal life NOT the wicked, they (the wicked) only get death.

 

I hope everyone is starting to get the (above and beyond obvious) point. (Max’s emphases)

 

Aside from the fact that everlasting and eternal are virtually synonymous, convey the same meaning, and are the same word in Greek, there is one other serious issue with trying to morph this verse into an apologetic for the annihilation view.

 

If we go to 1 John 4:18, we see the phrase “because fear hath torment.” What’s interesting is that the word for torment here is the same Greek word for punishment in the Matthew 25:46 verse above, kolasis.

 

One of my favorite Bible teachers has a saying that if you submit the data to enough torture it will confess to anything you want it to.

 

That is the case here. In the Greek, it is difficult to wrap one’s brain around the false notion that the result of everlasting torment is eternal, but the torment itself is not eternal. Everlasting torment is not a once and done thing. Torment is an ongoing, continuous process, as is shown elsewhere in scripture.

 

OK. Enough with death. There are a lot more, but I believe I’ve provided enough examples to show that one can’t just assume that death and all its derivative words in scripture can automatically be taken to mean totally ceasing to exist … body, soul and spirit.

 

I’m hoping those examples would prompt one to keep in view the body, soul and spirit and the six or more kinds of death that could be possible when reading any verse about death in the Bible. Math says there could be 18 difference combinations of possibilities in each verse … even more in verses with two or more usages.

 

If I may digress for a final example, here's one from Max’s post illustrating this:

 

 

Ezekial 18:20

 

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

 

Max’s comment:

 

The bold and underlined part above does not say the wicked get eternal life, it flatly states that sinners DIE!!!

 

Max, what dies? Look at it again.

 

It’s what I mean by being careful to not equate the body with the soul with the spirit. God is always very clear, even if one has to look carefully for it, about which state of man’s existence he is talking about.

 

Now, I want to talk about fire.

 

This is important because fire figures heavily in judgment, and is very prominent in the final days judgments as well as in the eponymously named lake of fire.

 

One of the big problems that annihilationists have with the lake of fire that never quenches is that they believe fire always burns up, and things being burned simply disappear into nothing or into ash.

 

However, God has provided us with at least three instances of a fire that never quenches.

 

An example that every kid in Sunday school learns about is the fiery furnace in Daniel. There, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were cast into the fiery furnace, and were seen walking around unscathed from the flames; except for their rope bindings, which were burned off.

 

Another example would be Moses twice meeting God as a flame of fire that did not consume the bush.

 

Could not the God who has the power to prevent the men from being burned up in the fiery furnace, and prevent the bush from being consumed while on fire also have the ability to preserved the bodies of the wicked from being consumed in the lake of fire?

 

I don’t want to be the one to pronounce a limitation on God like that.

 

But, what twisted machinations would the annihilationists use to deny the clear telling of the fire that is not quenched that we see here?

 

 

Mark 9:47-49

 

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. (My bold)

 

Let's not play games with doctrinal bias here. The plain meaning of the text is:

 

The … fire … is … not … quenched. Period. End of story.

 

What figure of speech could be dredged up that could undermine the absolutely, perfectly, unquestioning clear meaning of those words?

 

And, just in case anybody wants to try to deny that God means what he said, he put in a little zinger for them. Salt is a preservative. God tells us that those cast into the lake of fire will be salted with fire, which means the fire will be preserved from going out. But, that little tit bit would only be available to someone looking at scripture deeper than just into the surface meaning.

 

“But, Dave,” I can hear the annihilationists say, “I’ll accept that the fire never goes out, but that doesn’t prove the wicked won’t be immediately killed by the fire.”

 

Fair enough. Let’s look at these two verses taken together.

 

 

Rev 19:20

 

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

Rev 20:10

 

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (My bolds)

 

I believe at this point, the reader should be able to discern for himself that this scripture is crystal clear that:

 

1. The beast and false prophet were both cast alive into the lake of fire …

 

2. 1,000 years later, they are still alive in the lake of fire when the devil was cast into it with them.

 

3. And -- this is absolutely crystal clear -- they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

And, as God often does, he anticipates those who would corrupt his word by providing a proof text:

 

The devil, the antichrist and the false prophet will endure torment in the unquenchable fire along with all those in Rev 14:11 who will be cast in there and  “have no rest day or night.”

 

Have no rest day or night for ... what ... two days, two weeks, 90 days? No. For ... ever.

 

It’s interesting that torment here is translated from a different word in Greek than the other torment. The word is basanizo.

 

The translation for this word in context gives me shivers:

 

To question by applying torture, to torture, to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment, to be harassed, distressed

 

Is there any expression in scripture that could possibly be less ambiguous in meaning than what God told the author of Revelation to write what he is planning for the unrepentant sinner who dies outside of Christ?

 

OK. Now to address Max’s comment on this verse.

 

 

Max’s comments:

 

Before anybody jumps up and says "SEE, SEE I TOLD YOU SO!!! THAT MEANS IT BURNS FOREVER!!!!!"

 

First off, for the sake of brevity I only provided a few verses of scripture (out of a multitude available) that indicate the lake of fire doesn't last forever since, as stated above in Revelation Verses 20:15 through 21:1 Earth gets a rebuild after the lake of fire does its job.

 

Therefore, when taken in context of the entire Bible, the Lake of Fire cannot literally last forever, it only burns until there is no sin left for it to burn. (Max’s emphases)

 

What Max’s comment does is very handily point out why I believe that any serious student of the Bible should thoroughly study, understand and master the book of Revelation.

 

The fact is that the lake of fire is not located on the earth. Max is correct in stating that the present earth will be destroyed by fire after the millennium and before the new heaven of New Jerusalem descends to be our final heaven.

 

Look it up. The beast and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire before the earth’s destruction, whereas the devil will be cast into it after the destruction. This couldn’t happen if the lake of fire burned up and was no more.

 

Nobody knows where the lake of fire is presently. But it is the same place right now where it will be in the future and forever. Some conjecture it will be in the outer darkness which is referenced throughout scripture.

 

In any event, it most definitely will not be destroyed along with everyone in it during the last days of planet earth as we know it.

 

Max and others might be getting confused by the several different hells, hades, Abraham’s bosom, bottomless pits, abyssos, etc., referenced in scripture, which do indeed exist somewhere in the earth. Again, I recommend an in-depth study of Revelation.

 

Finally, I’d like to address the second death since it figures heavily in annihilationism doctrine … mainly in that they believe that any mention of second death equates to an annihilation death of body, soul and spirit.

 

However, in each use of the term second death in scripture, all in Revelation by the way, it refers to a spiritual death, and is reserved for those wicked who die outside of Christ.

 

Think of it this way. You know about the first birth, and being born again. Are you like those who questioned Jesus about how someone could exit their mother’s womb again as an adult?

 

No. You of course understand that the first birth is the physical one of the body, and that the second birth is a spiritual one. Right?

 

God promised that “it is appointed unto men once to die.” –Heb 9:27. That applies to those who die in Christ.

 

However, those who die outside of Christ will face a second death … of their spirits when they are thrown into the lake of fire.

 

As stated earlier here, the second death means the unsaved are to be forever separated from the presence of God.

 

 

Rev 20:14

 

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

This is a strange phrase until you realize that it refers to those who have already died once, and who must be dispatched to the lake of fire to die again.

 

It begs the question: Who have already died once? With a few exceptions everybody who has ever lived and not been raptured or caught up without dying, will die once.

 

But, who will die again … the second death? Only those who died outside of Christ.

 

The important factor here is that this second death is not a physical death, which is manifested on earth by decaying into nothingness. It is a death of the spirit to God, in which those resurrected bodies of the unsaved are tormented forever in the unquenchable fire.

 

I’m done. I’m tired.

 

Max, I’m betting that neither you nor anybody else on this forum will ever say to me again:

 

 

Unfortunately, the problem will only persist as there are people too lazy to research the matter to its logical conclusion, as is evident in (for example) some of the posts in this thread. So, please research the matter instead of misrepresenting God…

 

I did as you asked. To great length, I believe much to the detriment of those who hold the belief in annihilationism.

 

You might pick at minor points, swatting at gnats while the elephant flies around the room. But, scripture is extremely, intricately, soundly clear about the doctrine of eternal torment in the lake of fire for those who die outside of Christ.


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#2 Bmaxdlux

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 09:13 PM

You put a lot out there so it'll take me a little while to respond to it.

Give me a couple days as work keeps me pretty darn busy.

I have read it and to be honest I expected more from you.

In the meantime I suggest you start taking some anti-embarrassment pills and begin supergluing a real soft pillow to your behind. ;)

 

Max :)



#3 Dave

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 09:53 PM

You put a lot out there so it'll take me a little while to respond to it.

Give me a couple days as work keeps me pretty darn busy.

I have read it and to be honest I expected more from you.

In the meantime I suggest you start taking some anti-embarrassment pills and begin supergluing a real soft pillow to your behind. ;)

 

Max :)

Honestly? That sounds pretty confrontational. I hope you can do better in your next post.

 

I'm hoping that in your rebuttal you keep in mind the main theme of my post ... the difference between physical, soul and spiritual death, and use them properly in context, as well as correctly interpreting the several different kinds of death that are mentioned in scripture. If you can do that I'm interested in seeing what you can do.

 

But, to tell the truth, I'm not going to be interested in a drawn out debate about the Greek word aion. Or any argument for that matter that is straight out of the Universalist or Annihilist playbook. Been there, done that. It's a waste of time.

 

Plus, I'll be watching for context in every scripture that you quote. Stick to the main theme of the integration of end times scripture throughout the whole Bible, and you'll be fine.

 

Take your time. My work takes me away from home for several days at a time, and I don't always have a computer handy.



#4 Bmaxdlux

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Posted 21 March 2016 - 09:40 AM

Dave,

 

I agree... I haven't the time or the patience to deal with a long drawn debate either.

 

Therefore I've decided (after prayerful consideration and by the prompting of the Holy Spirit) to strike at the very

heart of the false doctrine of "God burning the wicked throughout eternity".

 

So here we go.

 

Your contention, simply put, is that at some point God will burn the wicked (literally) forever.

 

So lets take a look at where that dangerous doctrine began shall we?

 

 

God says,

Genesis 2:17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for
in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

Satan says,

Genesis 3:4

And the serpent said unto the woman,----> Ye shall not surely die:<----

 

 

And right there's the rotton core of your argument.

 

Do you see it?!? I sure hope so because it's as "plain as the noonday sun".

 

You see, your argument is founded entirely ( literally ) upon that very first lie.

 

In order to burn the wicked forever God would need to give them eternal life, which

is the exact opposite of what God just plainly stated above.

 

God doesn't lie, nor does He contradict Himself and He most certainly does not mince words.

 

 

When God says:

 

Psalm 37:20

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs:

they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

 

you had darn well better believe it.

 

I could go on but I certainly hope that by now you're getting the point.

 

I also hope you recognize the value in prayerfull, diligent study of Gods word (especially considering I've managed

to completely obliterate your argument with only three verses of scripture).

 

Now you're perfectly free to believe whatever you wish, after all God DID give you free will.

 

However, I very much hope you'll spend more time in Gods word, get to know Him better in

order to cultivate a deep and meaningful relationship with Him... one that lasts forever.

 

As for me and my household... I will stand on the word of God.

 

Kindest regards

 

Max :)

 

By the way, if you're really interested in answers regarding the 1000 years, 1st and 2nd

resurrection, 1st death, 2nd death and so on, pm me and when I get the chance I'll

send you links to resource material.

That'll take a major workload off my back as those subjects are quite involved and require

you first establishing the proper foundation upon which to build from.

 

God bless :)



#5 Dave

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Posted 21 March 2016 - 12:07 PM

God says,

Genesis 2:17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for
in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

I’m surprised you are trying to use this again as an example of a verse that supports annihilationism. I don’t think you remembered my admonition to be careful to assess which state of the person does which kind of dying.

 

To refresh:

 

Is it death of the body, soul or spirit?

Which kind of death is in view here?

 

In scripture, death is a separation of two things:

   Physical death is a separation of the body and soul, as in Eccl 12:7.

   Spiritual death is a separation of man from God, as in Isa 59:1-2

   Second death is a spiritual separation of man from God, as in Rev 21:18, 22:14-15

   Dead to sin is a separation of Christians from sin, as in Rom 6:2, 11 and Heb 7:26

   Dead to law is a separation of Christians from law, as in Rom 7:4

   Marriage dissolved by death is separation of man from woman, as in 1 Cor 7:39

 

Rather than state the obvious myself, I’ll ask you to answer which death was experienced by Adam on the day which he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

 

Hint: Remember, God does not lie. Adam did die on that day.

 

Continuing:

 

 

Satan says,

Genesis 3:4

And the serpent said unto the woman,----> Ye shall not surely die:<----

 

And right there's the rotton core of your argument.

 

Do you see it?!? I sure hope so because it's as "plain as the noonday sun".

 

You see, your argument is founded entirely ( literally ) upon that very first lie.

 

In order to burn the wicked forever God would need to give them eternal life, which

is the exact opposite of what God just plainly stated above.

 

God doesn't lie, nor does He contradict Himself and He most certainly does not mince words.

 

This was an interesting interpretation from you because it bolsters my argument and hinders yours.

 

The reason why Satan’s lie was effective with Eve is because he said “shall not surely die” knowing that God did not intend die in the physical sense, but in the spiritual sense. And Satan was right, wasn’t he? Adam and Eve did not “die” on the day that they ate the fruit.

 

That’s why Satan has been an extremely effective, prolific liar ever since. He got away with twisting words and making God out to be the liar.

 

 

In order to burn the wicked forever God would need to give them eternal (spiritual) life... (My add)

 

True, all who are born have eternal life: Some to eternity with God, others to eternity in the lake of fire. The latter experience spiritual death, which is separation of man from God.

 

So, I'll ask you, rather than state the obvious myself, when God promised they would die, did he lie? Or did they die? Which death did they die?

 

Wow! You couldn’t possibly have given me an easier proof against your annihilationism view. Thank you.

 

 

When God says:

 

Psalm 37:20

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs:

they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

 

you had darn well better believe it.

 

I could go on but I certainly hope that by now you're getting the point.

 

Like most of the psalms, meaning can be taken from the time of the writing and also from the prophetic. As David is being hounded by the wicked in the land he prays to God for his judgment on them.

 

In context then with David’s plea, “Lord, can you remove these wicked from me?” (my paraphrase), God promises that he will indeed make them perish from the land that should rightly be inhabited by those who shall inherit the earth. This will happen both in David’s time and in the future during judgment.

 

Also, let’s look at a nearby verse to put it in context:

 

Psalm 37:22 -- For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.

 

Note: Blessed will inherit the earth, cursed shall be cut off from the earth.

 

What is in view here? In the future, there will be a time when the righteous in Christ will exist in a land where the wicked will exist no more because they will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

I know you’ll put a lot of importance on the “into smoke shall they consume away.” But if you go to the Hebrew, you’ll discover that the translation of the word for smoke, ashan, could be used figuratively as well as literally.

 

Likewise, the Hebrew word for consume, kalah, can also be translated as accomplished, completed, be finished, etc.

 

All this, when examined without an annihilationistic bias, clearly points to the utterly consistent promise that the wicked will be taken out of the world in the future and severely dealt with, which is what a huge portion of scripture is all about, not that the wicked will be burned up and exist no more.

 

Here’s the thing, Max, virtually every verse that you can provide that massages scripture to illustrate your annihilationistic doctrine can be explained away to not support it, using solid, biblical doctrines like eternity, judgment, lake of fire, etc., that enjoy widespread continuity throughout the whole Bible.

 

These doctrines are integrated throughout scripture, whereas your attempts to misuse perish, destroy, burn, etc., in scripture to prove your false doctrine each fall as individual failures with no widespread, integrated support from God’s word. It's only a matter of chipping away at each of the annihilationists' misinterpretation until what's left is God's intended word.

 

If you want, you can continue to try to prove God a liar, I'll go along with refuting you each time as time permits. But I think we’ll both agree that it will be a waste of time, and a poor testimony for others to see two brothers having a fist fight in public.


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#6 mike the wiz

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 04:40 AM

Guys, there's no need to be so divisive. Example, "you are utterly refuted, Hammer-head". I mean for goodness sake!

 

Let's not try and see it as such a personal thing. even when we feel strongly about something, I know there is a tendency to almost make it personal. "Are you not still in the flesh?" Paul would ask us. 

 

Apart from that personal wrangling which I cannot approve of, I think the last post by Dave was a very strong argument. Max, I appreciate you feel strongly about this, but I would say you need to give a fuller understanding of your position.

 

​Let us not see that as a personal war but a mutual effort to understand what the Lord is truly saying to us. Have you guys never been to a bible-study? Do you seriously think the Christians that discuss these matters peaceably, end up arguing with each other, like the world does?

 

Repent now, in dust an ashes, or I borrow Enoch hammer and C4. ;) :D


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#7 Bmaxdlux

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 09:32 AM

Guys, there's no need to be so divisive. Example, "you are utterly refuted, Hammer-head". I mean for goodness sake!
 
Let's not try and see it as such a personal thing. even when we feel strongly about something, I know there is a tendency to almost make it personal. "Are you not still in the flesh?" Paul would ask us. 
 
Apart from that personal wrangling which I cannot approve of, I think the last post by Dave was a very strong argument. Max, I appreciate you feel strongly about this, but I would say you need to give a fuller understanding of your position.
 
​Let us not see that as a personal war but a mutual effort to understand what the Lord is truly saying to us. Have you guys never been to a bible-study? Do you seriously think the Christians that discuss these matters peaceably, end up arguing with each other, like the world does?
 
Repent now, in dust an ashes, or I borrow Enoch hammer and C4. ;) :D


Thanks, and yes I agree.
I just have a very different style of humor that is perplexing to the rest of the world.
And daves argument isn't as strong as you might think.
Since Daves last post I've been busy preparing a lengthy series of posts detailing my reasons for my position and exposing Daves fallacies and inaccurcies.
Try to imagine Gilbos walls of text times 1000.

Since I'm booked solid with work till August my normal 10-12 hour workday has increased to a 15-16 hour 6 day per week schedule.
Obviously that restricts the time available to spend on this matter.
But in no way, shape or form have I given up.

Be back as soon as I can.
Until then, God bless all of you.

Max :)

#8 mike the wiz

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Posted 23 March 2016 - 09:44 AM

Max my work day is down to one hour a day, I cannot accept that you have to work that much. Are you trying to feed an army? ;)

 

Lol. 

 

 

 

Bmax: exposing Daves fallacies and inaccurcie

 

I think this is an example of what I mean though, Max. It seems like an unfair assertion. It can only serve to further inflame your opponent, as obviously Dave would disagree there are any fallacies in his post. To be fair his argument so far seems a pretty strong attempt.

 

I appreciate you have a theology you have probably ere long stuck to but these discussions should not involve incitement/inducement. Some incitement is taking place. I am not attempting to take sides here, I just think a more docile discussion would be better.

 

Let's get back to a mature discussion now, friends, before the atheists laugh at us, thinking we make a great noise about the peacable Christian way, but argue with each other more than a rambunctious rabble of rhetorical rats! (all the, 'R's) ;)


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#9 Dave

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 08:02 AM

I appreciate you have a theology you have probably ere long stuck to but these discussions should not involve incitement/inducement. Some incitement is taking place. I am not attempting to take sides here, I just think a more docile discussion would be better.

 

Let's get back to a mature discussion now, friends,

Again, I agree.

 

And, honestly, Max, If you posted a "wall of text" with the kind of contentious language that you have hinted you would be using, I would just ignore it as a time-waster and move on.

 

On the other hand, if you posted one verse at a time that you think solidly illustrates your position I would definitely take the time to examine each of them in turn and reply. That would save both of us a lot of time.

 

Fair enough?



#10 Bmaxdlux

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 09:07 PM

Post 10

 

So very, very sorry for the delay everybody, I tried so hard to get this posted by August, unfortunately not only does my "day" job keep me hyper busy but being the owner of rental property serves to really complicate my life, especially since a large piece of my property is now planned to become part of a road widening project by the county in which I live.
On the up side it has provided Dave with more than enough time to reconsider and/or correct his nonsense... which he hasn't done, so now he's stuck.

 

Destruction of the Wicked

 

Introduction:

I put this super short "essay" together more for the benefit of those who "stumble" onto this site through a google search as well as address most of Dave's nonsensical, nay... slanderous (and surprisingly amateurish) butchering of Gods Holy word. Careful reading of this post combined with some honest research will enable anyone to see Dave's fallacies, deceit and gross (seemingly willful) misunderstanding of scripture.
My greatest problem was trying to decide how much information is "too much" and how little is "too little"... I hope I found a suitable balance considering the time spent, which by the way, took a lot longer than I expected.
For those who may be curious, it took me about three hours to look up most of the information and another (roughly) nine hours to type out what you see here in just this post alone. I then spent about a month and a half going over and over everything, editing this or cutting that... I left a lot on the "cutting room floor" which, although useful, would have been sheer overkill to include. What you see here in this post alone represents roughly a meager tenth of what I planned on posting.

With that in mind, the reader is encouraged to consider carefully what I've written in this post and to study the Bible honestly which will result in the blessing of discovering the whole truth of this particular matter.

Afterwards, I would like the reader to re-examine Daves "argument" and take note of his attempted "militant neo darwinstic" debate style approach towards what I previously posted and be aware that his position is not something that can be supported with idle rhetoric or vain sophistry. The fact that he thinks he can "debate" this matter to his advantage is the first clear indication he hasn't a leg to stand on.

For the record... I don't hate Dave.

Fact is... I genuinely feel sorry for him, as well as everyone else who've been duped by the false teachings so prevalent in our world. There was a time when I too was of the belief that God would torture the wicked throughout eternity, but after honest fervent study I could no longer, in good conscience, adhere to such a satanic, deeply pagan, profoundly stupid and biblically unsupportable doctrine.

******************************************************
God is The Supreme Ruler over a Kingdom.
Because God is omnipresent, His Kingdom begins with God and extends to literally everywhere.
There is no place, anywhere, that isn't a part of Gods Kingdom.
Gods Kingdom is governed by laws thereby infering a judical system by which to deal with social issues as well as the criminal element.
Thus, as one begins to study the Genesis account and then continuing throughout the Bible, one quickly becomes cognizant of the establishment of laws and precedents which are directly pertinent to the dealings with those who transgress Gods laws.
Continued study throughout the Bible provides us with a large body of evidence that, when taken in the overall context of the Bible, reveals the details of the process involving the issue of sin all the way through to its final conclusion.

******************************************************

I've been wanting to write volumes on this and other Bible topics to be used in a series of books intended for advanced Bible students for quite some time now. However, time greatly limits how "in depth" I'll be able to persue the matter in this thread by reason of the vastness of this particular subject, especially since it involves a deep understanding of parallel subjects such as the state of the dead, the "thousand years", the manner of Christ's second coming, the significance and processes involved in the Old Testament sanctuary (and so on). However, understanding some basics will easily enable anyone with a serious interest to quickly get to the truth of this and many other Bible subjects.


Part 1.
Basic Definitions;

Death:

From http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/die.html we find;
KJV Dictionary Definition: die

die:
DIE, v.i. See Day.

1. To be deprived of respiration, of the circulation of blood, and other bodily functions, and rendered incapable of resuscitation, as animals, either by natural decay, by disease, or by violence; to cease to live; to expire; to decease; to perish; and with respect to man, to depart from this world (see *note* below).
All the first born in the land of Egypt shall die. Exodus 11.
The fish that is in the river shall die. Exodus 7.
This word is followed by of or by. Men die of disease; of a fever; of sickness; of a fall; of grief. They die by the sword; by famine; by pestilence; by violence; by sickness; by disease. In some cases, custom has established the use of the one, to the exclusion of the other; but in many cases, either by or of may be used at the pleasure of the writer or speaker. The use of for, he died for thirst, is not elegant nor common.

2. To be punished with death; to lose life for a crime, or for the sake of another.
I will relieve my master, if I die for it. Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5.
Christ died for our sins. 1 Corinthians 15.

3. To come to an end; to cease; to be lost; to perish or come to nothing; as, let the secret die in your own breast.

4. To sink; to faint.
His heart died withing him, and he became as a stone. 1 Samuel 25.

5. To languish with pleasure or tenderness; followed by away.
To sounds of heavenly harps she dies away.

6. To languish with affection.
The young men acknowledged that they died for Rebecca.

7. To recede as sound, and become less distinct; to become less and less; or to vanish from the sight, or disappear gradually. Sound or color dies away.

8. To lose vegetable life; to wither; to perish; as plants or seeds. Plants die for want of water. Some plants die annually.

9. To become vapid or spiritless, as liquors; mostly used in the participle; as the cider or beer is dead.

10. In theology, to perish everlastingly; to suffer divine wrath and punishment in the future world. (notice that it states punishmment, it doesn't say punishing).

11. To become indifferent to, or to cease to be under the power of; as, to die to sin.

12. To endure great danger and distress.
I die daily. 1 Corinthians 15.
To die away, to decrease gradually; to cease to blow; as, the wind dies away.


Thanatos:
From http://biblehub.com/greek/2288.htm we have;

2288. thanatos
Strong's Concordance

thanatos: death Original Word: θάνατος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: thanatos
Phonetic Spelling: (than'-at-os)
Short Definition: death
Definition: death, physical or spiritual.

 

Perish:
From http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/perish.html we find;

KJV Dictionary Definition: perish

PER'ISH, v.i.L. pereo, supposed to be compounded of per and eo, to go; literally, to depart wholly.

1. To die; to lose life in any manner; applied to animals. Men perish by disease or decay, by the sword, by drowning, by hunger or famine, &c.

2. To die; to wither and decay; applied to plants.

3. To waste away; as, a leg or an arm has perished.

4. To be in a state of decay or passing away. Duration, and time which is part of it, is the idea we have of perishing distance.

5. To be destroyed; to come to nothing. Perish the lore that deadens young desire.

6. To fail entirely or to be extirpated.

7. To be burst or ruined; as, the bottles shall perish.

 

Extirpate:

From http://www.dictionary.com/browse/extirpated?s=t we find;

verb (used with object), extirpated, extirpating.

1. to remove or destroy totally; do away with; exterminate.

2. to pull up by or as if by the roots; root up: (to extirpate an unwanted hair).


Pay particular attention to this next definition.

Destroy:
From http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/destroy.html we find;

KJV Dictionary Definition: destroy

destroy:

DESTROY, v.t. L. To pile, to build.

1. To demolish; to pull down; to separate the parts of an edifice, the union of which is necessary to constitute the thing; as, to destroy a house or temple; to destroy a fortification.

2. To ruin; to annihilate a thing by demolishing or by burning; as, to destroy a city.

3. To ruin; to bring to naught; to annihilate; as, to destroy a theory or scheme; to destroy a government; to destroy influence.

4. To lay waste; to make desolate. Go up against this land, and destroy it. Is. 36.

5. To kill; to slay; to extirpate; applied to men or other animals. Ye shall destroy all this people. Num. 32. All the wicked will he destroy. Ps. 145.

6. To take away; to cause to cease; to put an end to; as, pain destroys happiness.


Destruction:
From http://biblehub.com/greek/3639.htm (definition same in hebrew) we have;
3639. olethros
Strong's Concordance

olethros: destruction, deathOriginal Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Short Definition: ruin, doom, destruction
Definition: ruin, doom, destruction, death.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

 

******************************************************

*Note*;
According to the Bible if you perish or "cease to live" then you most certainly have departed from this world. It does not say or even infer, a state of consiousness, limbo or relocation... more on that later. Death is, simply stated, nothing more than the creation process in reverse resulting in the cessation of conscious existence whether it be the first (temporary) or second (permanent) death.

Also notice the term annihilation popping up in reference to the word "destroy" which is used frequently throughout the Bible as it pertains to the demise of the wicked.
Gee, I wonder why?

Punishment:

From http://biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm we have;

2851. kolasis
Strong's Concordance

kolasis: correctionOriginal Word: κόλασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-as-is)
Short Definition: chastisement, punishment
Definition: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation.

The Term "Forever":

All too often this term "forever" is misused by those who simply don't know any better... in spite of the fact that its meaning, when taken in general context, couldn't be any less ambiguous.

From http://biblehub.com/greek/165.htm we have;

"165. aión

Strong's Concordance

aión: a space of time, an ageOriginal Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Short Definition: an age, a cycle of time
Definition: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity."

Since the primary definition refers to "a cycle of time" especially since its contextually attached to the wicked (because they don't receive eternal life) its not surprising Dave doesn't like the definition of aión. The term "forever" is used consistently in the Bible to mean a specific time period. When used in the general context of those eternally lost it always denotes a specific (short) period of time. When used in general context of the eternally saved it always denotes a never ending or consecutive period(s) of time.
To clarify, in speaking of the punishment of the wicked, the New Testament uses the terms "everlasting" and "eternal." These terms translate the Greek word aionios, and apply to God as well as to man. To avoid misunderstanding, one must remember that aionios is a relative term; its meaning is determined by the object it modifies. So when Scripture uses aionios ("everlasting," "eternal") of God, it means that He possesses infinite existence... for God is immortal. But when it applies this word to mortal human beings or perishable things, it means as long as the person lives or the thing exists. If the saved get eternal life then they will be allowed by God to exist literally forever, sadly the wicked are never granted eternal life so the outcome for them should be obvious even to the most simple minded.



Part 2.

Life.

What life is requires an understanding of where life comes from, what a "soul" actually is and how it is biblically described . Once understood, the subject of death quickly comes into focus.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

"God formed man from "the dust of the ground", using the pre-existing matter He created when He formed the earth. After God had formed every intricate detail of man, He introduce the "breath of life" that made man a living soul. This breath of life is "the breath of the Almighty" that gives life (Job 33:4), the spark of life. The scriptural equation is pretty straightforward: a body constructed of the dust of the ground (earth's elements) + the breath of life (spirit) = a living being, or living soul.

The Hebrew term in Genesis 2:7 that has been translated "living being" or "living soul" is nephesh chayyah. Nephesh, translated as "being" or "soul," comes from naphash, meaning "to breathe." Its Greek equivalent in the New Testament is psuche.

It is important to note that the Bible says that man became a living soul. There is absolutely nothing in the creation account (or anywhere else in the Bible for that matter) that would indicate man was given a soul or some kind of separate conscious entity. Everyone attempting to support the notion that man inherently possesses an "immortal soul" have always failed to produce any supportive scripture and thus resort to regurgitating pagan traditions.

As already mentioned, in the Old Testament "soul" is a translation of the Hebrew nephesh. In Genesis 2:7 it denotes man as becoming a living being after the breath of life (spirit) entered into a physical body formed from the elements of the earth. When used in this sense nephesh (soul) is not a part of the person; it is the whole person, and, in many instances, is translated 'person' (see Gen. 14:21; Num. 5:6; Deut. 10:22; cf. Ps. 3:2) or 'self' (Lev. 11:43; 1 Kings 19:4; Isa. 46:2; etc.).

The Biblical evidence indicates that sometimes nephesh and psuche refer to the whole person but at other times to a particular aspect of man, such as the affections, emotions, appetites, and feelings. This usage, however, in no way shows that man is a being made up of two (or more) separate and distinct conscious entities.

Whereas the Hebrew word nephesh translated soul, denotes individuality or personality, the Old Testament Hebrew word ruach, translated spirit, refers to the energizing spark of life essential to individual existence. It stands for the divine energy, or life principle, that animates human beings.

Ruach occurs 377 times in the Old Testament and is most frequently translated 'spirit,' 'wind,' or 'breath' (Gen. 8:1, etc.). It is also used to denote physical vitality (Judges 15:19), courage (Joshua 2:11), temper or anger (Judges 8:3), disposition (Isa. 54:6), moral character (Eze. 11:19), and the seat of the emotions (1 Sam. 1:15).
The ruach of man leaves the body at death (Ps. 146:4) and returns to God (Eccl. 12:7; cf. Job 34:14). Ruach is used frequently of the Spirit of God, as in Isaiah 63:10.
Mat 27:50 "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

But never in either in the Old Testament nor the New Testament does ruach or pneuma refer to an intelligent entity capable of existence apart from the body.

 

Part 3.

Immortality.

Immortality is the state or quality of not being subject to death.
The translators of Scripture used the word immortality to translate the Greek terms athanasia, "deathlessness," and aphtharsia, "incorruptibility."

Scripture reveals that the eternal God is immortal (1 Tim. 1:17).
In fact, He "alone has immortality" (1 Tim. 6:16).
He is uncreated, self-existent, He has no beginning and no end.
The immortality (continuation of existence) of created intelligences such as angels and humans is dependent only on obedience to God.

To find out when the righteous receive eternal life (immortality) see Part 5.
And if your waiting for me to present any scripture stating the wicked get eternal life you might as well forget it... such texts don't exist.

 

Part 4.

Death: of Adam and Eve.

The Hebrew phrase in English is more literally:
"Tree knowledge good evil eat day eat die (dying) die".
Confused yet? Keep reading.

The Hebrew is, literally, die-die (muwth-muwth) with two different verb tenses (dying and die), which can be translated as "surely die" or "dying you shall die." This indicates the beginning of dying, an ingressive sense, which finally culminates with death.

There are primarily two ways people translate: one is literal or word for word (formal equivalence) and the other is dynamic equivalence or thought-for-thought. If this is translated word for word, it would be "dying die" or "die die," which is difficult for English readers to understand, as there is no changed emphasis when a word is repeated. The Latin Vulgate by Jerome, which permits such grammatical constructions, does translate this as "dying die" or "dying you will die" (morte morieris). So, most translations rightly use more dynamic equivalence and say "surely die."

The death (or dying) process began at the exact moment when Adam and Eve chose to disobey God. It was at that instant when their innocence and purity vaporized (died), and they found themselves naked (no longer "adorned" by the Shekinah glory of Gods presence). They had stepped outside of the life perpetuating agreement (Gen 2:16-17) between God and themselves leaving them in need of a corrective solution. They became dead in transgressions, subject to not only the first death that all must face, but also the future permanent second death warned about by God (more on that later).

At that point, Adam and Eve began to die and would return to dust. If they were meant to die right then, the text should have simply used muwth only once, which means "dead, died, or die" and not beginning to die or surely die (as muwth-muwth is used in Hebrew). Old Testament authors understood this and used it in such a fashion, but we must remember that english translations can (and often do) miss much of the nuance.
As you study through the Bible you find God working out a plan of redemption by which those who choose may be reinstated back to eternal life in paradise while those who refuse are allowed to reap the fruits of their decision, which is death... the absence of life.
The Son of God intervened and offered to give His life so that humans might have one last opportunity, a "second chance" if you will. He is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8) to bridge the fatal gap of permanent seperation from God, the second death, brought about by transgression. Since God is the great lifegiver, the source of life for all then seperation from God means seperation from life, the only remaining option is death. A condition best described as non existent, in other words, no consciousness, no pulse, no body, no soul, nothing... complete oblivion.

Moreover, when we look at the Genesis account we find the formation of a distinct pattern of downward progression beginning with;
1. The entrance of sin which brings,
2. A disruption in the relationship between God and man (seperation) which lead to,
3. Banishment from the garden (and forbidden access to the tree of life) followed by,
4. The dying process which leads to death (a cessation of life) concluding in,
5. Judgement either to life everlasting or execution which results in a permanent state of non life or death.

In fact, when one studies the general context of the entire Bible, it turns out that God was talking about the second death when He warned man not to eat of the forbidden fruit. This pattern is consistently repeated throughout the bible (even in the book of Malachi) as the ultimate consequences of rebellion against God.

As darkness is the absence of light, death is the absence of life.

 

Death: The Wages of Sin.

Contradicting God's warning that disobedience would bring death, satan asserted, "'You will not surely die'" (Gen. 3:4). But after they transgressed God's command, Adam and Eve very quickly discovered that the wages of sin is indeed, death (Rom. 6:23). Their sin brought this sentence: You shall "'return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are, and to dust you shall return'" (Gen. 3:19).

These words do not point to a "never ending continuation of life for sinners" but to its inevitable cessation. Furthermore, after giving this sentence, God barred the sinful couple from the tree of life so that they could no longer "'eat, and live forever'" (Gen. 3:22).

From the entrance of sin onto our world we have God plainly indicating He has no intention whatsoever of immortalizing sin/sinners. This pattern is consistent throughout both the old and new testament. If you think He intends to change that then the burden of proof is on you to provide scripture where God explicitly states giving eternal life to the wicked.

Transgression against Gods laws results in a death penalty, it is not a life sentence.

Death: The First Death.

The first death is not (yet) complete annihilation; it is only a state of temporary unconsciousness while the person awaits one of the two resurrections, the first resurrection unto eternal life or the second resurrection unto eternal death. The Bible repeatedly refers to this intermediate state as a "sleep".

Referring to their deaths, the Old Testament describes David, Solomon, and the other kings of Israel and Judah as sleeping with their forefathers (1 Kings 2:10; 11:43; 14:20, 31; 15:8; 2 Chron. 21:1; 26:23; etc.). Job called death a sleep (Job 14:10-12), as did David (Ps. 13:3), Jeremiah (Jer. 51:39, 57), and Daniel (Dan. 12:2).

The New Testament uses the same imagery. In describing the condition of Jairus' daughter, who was dead, Christ said that she was sleeping (Matt. 9:24; Mark 5:39). He referred to the deceased Lazarus in a similar manner (John 11:11-14). Matthew wrote that many "saints who had fallen asleep were raised" after Christ's resurrection (Matt. 27:52), and in recording Stephen's martyrdom, Luke wrote that "he fell asleep" (Acts 7:60). Both Paul and Peter also called death a sleep (1 Cor. 15:51, 52; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 2 Peter 3:4).

The Biblical representation of death as a sleep clearly fits its nature, as the following comparisons demonstrate:
1. Those who sleep are unconscious. "The dead know nothing" (Eccl. 9:5).
2. In sleep, conscious thinking ceases. "His breath goeth forth, . . . in that very day his thoughts perish" (Ps. 146:4, KJV).
3. Sleep brings an end to all the days activities. "There is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going" (Eccl. 9:10).
4. Sleep disassociates us from those who are awake, and from their activities. "Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun" (verse 6).
5. Sleep renders the emotions inactive. "Their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished" (verse 6).
6. In sleep men do not praise God. "The dead do not praise the Lord" (Ps. 115:17).
7. Sleep presupposes an awakening. "'The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth'" (John 5:28, 29).

What I find most interesting is the stark difference between life and death as it's described in the Bible. Much like darkness is portrayed as the absence of light, death is always portrayed as the absence of life, never is it represented as a continuation of life in some altered form.



Death: The Abode of the Dead.
The Old Testament calls the place where people go at death sheol (Hebrew), and the New Testament hades (Greek). In the Scripture, sheol most often simply means the grave.(R.L. Harris, "The Meaning of the Word Sheol as Shown by Parallels in Poetic Texts," Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, Dec. 1961, pp. 129-135) The meaning of hades is similar to that of sheol.

English versions of the Bible frequently use the word "hell" to translate the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek hades. These terms generally refer to the grave where the dead, both righteous and wicked, await, in a state of unconsciousness, the resurrection (see Part 5). Because today's concept of hell differs so greatly from what these Hebrew and Greek terms imply, a number of modern versions avoid the word "hell," simply transliterating the Hebrew word as "Sheol" and the Greek as "Hades."

All the dead go into this place (Ps. 89:48), both the righteous and the wicked. Jacob said, "'I shall go down into the grave [sheol]'" (Gen. 37:35). When the earth opened "its mouth" to swallow the wicked Korah and his company, they went "'down alive into the pit [sheol]'" (Num. 16:30). Sheol receives the whole person at death. When Christ died, He went into the grave (hades) but at the Resurrection His soul (the whole person) left the grave (hades, Acts 2:27, 31, or sheol, Ps. 16:10). When David thanked God for healing, he testified that his soul was saved "from the grave [sheol]" (Ps. 30:3).

The grave is not a place of consciousness.( The only exception is when sheol is used figuratively (see Eze. 32:21) or hades in a parable (Luke 16:23). Sheol occurs more than 60 times in the Old Testament, but nowhere does it refer to a place of punishment after death. That idea was later attached to gehenna (Mark 9:43-48), not to hades). Since death is a sleep, the dead will remain in a state of unconsciousness in the grave until either the first or second resurrection when the grave (hades) gives up its dead (Rev. 20:13).

 

Part 5.

The Two Resurrections.

Christ taught that there are two general resurrections: a "'resurrection of life'" for the followers of God and a "'resurrection of condemnation'" for the lost (John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15). The 1000 years separates these resurrections (Rev. 20:4, 5).

 

The resurrection of life.
The receiving of immortality.

The moment of the bestowal of the gift of immortality is described by Paul: "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory'" (1 Cor. 15:51-54). This makes it very clear that God does not bestow immortality upon the believer at death, but at the resurrection, when "the last trumpet" sounds. Then "this mortal" shall "put on immortality." While John points out that we (the redeemed) receive the gift of eternal life when we accept Jesus Christ as personal Saviour (1 John 5:11-13), the actual realization of this gift will only take place when Christ returns. Only then will we (the redeemed) be changed from mortal to immortal, from corruptible to incorruptible.
Those who are raised in the first resurrection (the redeemed) are called "blessed and holy" (Rev. 20:6). They will not experience the second death in the lake of fire at the close of the 1000 years (verse 4). This resurrection to life and immortality (John 5:29; 1 Cor. 15:52, 53) takes place at the Second Advent (1 Cor. 15:22, 23; 1 Thess. 4:15-18). Those who experience it cannot die anymore (Luke 20:36). They are united with Christ forever.

To be continued...


 



#11 Bmaxdlux

Bmaxdlux

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 09:08 PM

Continued:

The Earth during the one thousand years
(short version).

There are some who think that Christ will "Rule with his saints" on Earth during the thousand years... lets see what the Bible says about that.
First, there isn't the slightest evidence in the Old or New Testament that the righteous and the wicked will live together on Earth during the thousand years after Christ's second coming.
Second (and to the contrary), in His parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus said that at His second coming the righteous and the wicked will be separated from each other "as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats" (Matthew 25:32; see also Matthew 13:40-43).
According to 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (referring to Christs second coming) "Then we (the redeemed) which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Interesting that Christ isn't even going to touch down on Earth at His second coming.
At the time of the second coming of Christ the wicked are overwhelmed with terror. Rev 6:16-17, KJV "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The Earth after the Lords second coming, according to eyewitness Jeremiah 4:23-27 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger. For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end." (the "full end" comes after the thousand years).

The wicked slain by the brightness of Christ's return and the ascension of the redeemed to heaven coupled with the fact that satan has (already) been forever cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7-9) leaves him (satan) bound by those specific chains of circumstances to the Earth during the thousand years.

The righteous, on the other hand, will be in heaven, and Revelation 20 says that they will be "given authority to judge. . . . They will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years" (verses 4, 6).

Other verses in the New Testament detail of the nature of this judgment. Paul said that "the saints will judge the world" and "we will judge (fallen) angels" (1 Corinthians 6:2, 3). Also, Jesus said that "when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matthew 19:28). In this verse, Jesus combined both the idea of reigning with Him and judging that which John spoke about in Revelation 20:4.

 

The resurrection of condemnation.
The second death.

The lost are raised in the second resurrection, which takes place at the end of the 1000 years. This resurrection proceeds to the final judgment of condemnation and execution of the wicked (John 5:29). Those whose names are not found in the book of life will be raised at this time and "cast into the lake of fire" and experience the second, permanent death (Rev. 20:15, 14).

Some have asked why does God bother to resurrect the wicked only to later destroy them?
The answer is simple.

First, God abides by the rules of judicial process when dealing with the criminal element and also demonstrates that the wicked will come out of the grave with the same rebellious nature they had when they went into the grave indicating no "change of heart".

Second, God (being the just individual that He is) cannot destroy them until He first explains to them why they must be destroyed, (here in America, a criminal deemed "mentally incompetent" need not stand trial, however, that dodge won't fly with God). In order to accomplish that task God will essentially have to "pin them down" and "ram the truth down their throats", truths that they have willfully rebelled against all their lives will be forcefully brought to the forefront of their attention. God is not doing it to force upon them a change of heart, but instead, to simply force them to understand and acknowledge the serious nature of their current situation.

There is mentioned in several places of the Bible the concept of records being kept. These are records of everything, but in particular they are the details of each and every one of our lives, try to imagine a three dimentional representation of your life in heaven for all to view.

Revelation 20:12-15 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
The "books" that are opened contain a detailed record of the lives of each and every one of the wicked while the "book of life" contains only the names of those who are saved and have been given eternal life. The names of the wicked are not found in the "book of life" so the wicked don't get eternal life, instead they are destroyed in the lake of fire and once dead there will be no one left to die. Thus, death is destroyed and the grave along with it.

God reveals to the lost that every opportunity for salvation and eternal life was offered to them back when they had the chance, and the wicked continued to demonstrate no change of heart, which in and of itself is a declaration to all that God truly is just and righteous in all His ways. And even though they are forced to understand and acknowledge the truth, and even though they declare God just and righteous, they persist in remaining rebellious towards God, leaving Him no choice but to once and for all rid the universe of sin and sinners.
Those who have not been granted eternal life will (must) be destroyed. Sin, sinners, death and the grave will never again be allowed to exist in the Kingdom of God Almighty.

The only evidence that sin ever occurred will be Christ's marks of crucifixion, He will bear those marks throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity as a perpetual reminder of the costly and destructive nature of sin.

Never forget, God is omnipresent, His Kingdom begins with God and extends to literally everywhere. The only way for sinners to "depart from His presence" is to eliminate them entirely from existence, they cannot be relocated to some other part of the universe because there is simply nowhere that God isn't. Sin is a destructive malignant cancer in Gods Kingdom that the great healer must completely eradicate in order to ensure eternal health, peace, safety and harmony throughout His Kingdom.

******************************************************************************

Part 6.

Miscellaneous Stuff:

The Bible leaves no room for ambiguity.
As darkness is the absence of light, death is the absence of life.
In unmistakable language, the word of God presents a clear distinction between living or dying. "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:12
Efforts to support the false doctrine of eternal torment require one to intentionally pull from context, twist, misinterpret or completely ignore such Bible passages as:

Psalm 37:38 "But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off."

Proverbs 10:29 "The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity."

"Matt 19:29-30—"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life."

Matt 25:46—"These will go away into eternal punishment (the results of the punishment are eternal, it does not say "eternal punishing"), but the righteous into eternal life."

John 3:16—"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

John 3:36—"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (you can't have eternal life in the lake of fire if you don't receive eternal life... DUH!!!)

John 4:14—"...but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

John 5:24—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John 6:40—"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

John 6:54—"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:68—"and Simon Peter answered Him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.'"

John 10:28—"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

Rom 5:21—"so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Rom 6:23—"For the wages of sin is death (not eternal life), but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Titus 3:7—"so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

1 John 3:15—"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

1 John 5:11—"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."

There are many (many) more but I hope by now you're starting to get the point. Eternal life is only in God's son. The unrighteous (wicked) do not, in any way, shape or form receive eternal life.
It is therefore logically, physically and demonstrably impossible to live forever without the gift of eternal life.


Sodom and Gomorrha:
By now one would think the demise of the wicked would seem pretty obvious, and yet, God in His infinite wisdom knew that there would be people (just like Dave) torturing scripture passages in a foolish (self destructive) attempt to justify unbiblical teachings, perpetuating (satanic) pagan nonsense and arguing with those who endeavour to follow the Lamb.

So, to make this issue completely idiot proof, God provided us with the account of Sodom and Gomorrah, as an unmistakable example of the results of eternal judgment. I shall refrain (due to time constraints) from expounding in detail the significance of salt as it applies to the saved, the lost, its purpose and meaning in the temple ceremonies (and so on), however, since there is a connection between it, the saved, the lost and Sodom and Gomorrah I'll touch on it briefly.

Its important to notice that nobody is being endlessly tormented in either city… you can go to the Dead Sea and observe for yourself that they are not still burning, they were all destroyed, annihilated, reduced to ashes. In fact, the fertile plains where Sodom and Gomorrah were once located was transformed into a deep smouldering crater in the ground that soon after filled with water and was appropriately named "The Dead Sea"... the lowest point on Earth (6600 feet below "sea level"). Also, the salt content (which is about 33 percent salinity) of the Dead Sea and the profound devastation of the surrounding area serves as a secondary example that Gods judgement of destruction will be so complete that the wicked shall not rise again.

To make the "salt" connection one must, in addition to the demise of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, look elsewhere in scripture to find the account of a conquering king by the name of Abimelech:
Judges 9:45 "And Abimelech fought against the city all that day; and he took the city, and slew the people that was therein, and beat down the city, and sowed it with salt."

Sounds exactly like what Christ intends do to the wicked. :) 

Jesus comes as a conquering King:
Matthew 24:30-31 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Just as a conquering army would "salt" the Earth to deter their enemys from rebuilding, God intends to "salt" the wicked to prevent them from rising again. Sin/sinners will be obliterated so completely that we find in Nahum 1:9 "What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time."
Remember Lots wife? The sinner who's heart remained in Sodom and Gomorrah? How she "became a pillar of salt" when she turned her back on salvation? You think God "salted" her to preserve her? You think she's still alive?
Lots wife is dead along with the inhabitants of the cities.

2 Peter 2:6
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly"

Jude 1:7
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

I sure hope you people are starting to put the pieces of this super simple puzzle together cause... this ain't exactly rocket science.


Jesus Paid It All:

If the penalty for sin was ceaseless eternal torture, then Jesus didn't even come remotely close to paying the price. The simple fact is Jesus was put to death ("cut off") on the cross. He suffered the death penalty for the transgression of Gods law. He is not now suffering ceaseless eternal torture that many (like Dave) would try to have you believe.
When you accept Christ into your life, you accept that He lived a perfect life in place of your imperfect life, He suffered the death you deserve, so that those who accept Christ won't be subject to the second death, and He came forth from the grave to offer you life everlasting.
However, those who refuse His offer of salvation must account for their own sins and pay the penalty of the second death.
Most interesting to note is this particular sequence of events:
Starting with Matthew 26:36 we have Jesus entering into Gethsemane and the burden of the sins of the world weighing down on Him. He is afterwards betrayed, taken to "court", tormented beaten, whipped and eventually found guilty. He is then taken to be executed as a common criminal.
Matthew 27:46-50 "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (seperation from the Father) Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost (died)."

Seperation from God brings death... not life.
When seperated from the source of life you don't suddenly become immortal, that belief just isn't scriptural nor is it logically sound.

Jesus experienced everything that the wicked will experience at the time of the second death, the wicked will be tormented, brought before The Judge, found guilty and executed.
The wicked will not get a second chance and God will not force eternal life on them.
Just before the second coming the Lord declares in Rev 22: 11-12 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Translation; "The saved are saved and the lost are lost... Case closed, courts adjourned!!!"


Regarding the book of Malachi.
Malachi uses a dialectic form of writing (investigation through discussion and reasoning) wherein we find a rebuke from God towards the exiles who had returned to Judah from Babylon (538-536 b.c.). Sin had begun corrupting the worship that took place in the rebuilt temple. God gives a strong (far reaching) rebuke by pointing out the corruption and then spelling out the ultimate consequences of continuing on in corruption... annihilation.

Dave doesn't seem to comprehend that people can simply open the Bible and read for themselves what's plainly written.

Furthermore, the Bible provides several examples of God using the same warning technique when dealing with the wicked such as God, through the Holy Spirit, warning the Antediluvians of a judgement of destruction by flood, Gods warning to Sodom and Gomorrah, Gods warning to the Ninevites, and so on.
So according to Daves "logic" we're to believe those people are still being drowned, burned (or whatever), and will continue to be drowned, burned (or whatever), throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity? Yeah... right!

When the information presented in this post is considered in general context of the Bible there is no other interpretation available. The wicked are not given eternal life, they are destroyed... duh!

Remember, God is omnipresent, His Kingdom extends to literally everywhere, there is nowhere that is not a part of Gods Kingdom. Sin, suffering and death is an intruder, an enemy, a noxious cancer that must be destroyed completely, totally and absolutely, and those who choose to cling to sin will be destroyed along with it.
Never forget the precedent established by God in the garden of Eden... God barred the sinful couple from the tree of life so that they could not "'eat, and live forever'" (Gen. 3:22).
Right from the entrance of sin we have God unmistakingly declaring He has no intention whatsoever of immortalizing sin/sinners.

Part 7.
Paganism in the church:

What follows are pagan teachings that have crept into the church which, had they not, there would not be so much confusion in todays society.

The false doctrine of never ending torture for the wicked.
Here is the short version as this post is already far longer than I intended.
The teaching of an everlasting place of punishment for the wicked is the unfortunate consequence of a unsupportable belief in an immortal soul. A belief which can ultimately be traced back to the Garden of Eden, "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (Gen 3:4-5).
This lie from the "father of lies" is present throughout history.
From "After The Flood" By Bill Cooper Page 108 (http://ldolphin.org/cooper/appen2.html) we find Noahs son Ham perpetuating the lies of satanism: "1. Ham: 'Yt is observed that Cham, and his famely, were the only far Travellers, and Straglers into diverse unknowne countries, searching; exploring and sitting downe in the same; as also yt is said of his famely that what country soever the children of Cham happened to possesse, there beganne both the Ignoraunce of true godliness...and that no inhabited countryes cast forth greater multytudes, to raunge and stray into diverse remote Regions.' Thus far the comments of one William Strachey, who added to these words in 1612 the following damning indictment, accusing Ham's posterity of instigating: the ignoraunce of the true worship of God...the inventions of Heathenisme, and [the] adoration of falce godes and the Devill...' cit. Hogden, p. 262. See Bibliography. (Refs: 1DB 2:515. NBD 500. JA 1.vi.2. P 1:27)".

"These Godless teachings, carried over by Ham from the preflood Antedluvian culture eventually filtered into Babylonian mythology, which then found its way into Greek mythology where it had been taught by Plato (427-347 BC) long before the time of Jesus.
"By the end of the 2nd century Christianity had begun to blend Greek philosophy. These had come straight from Plato, the Greek philosopher, all those years before Jesus. It was taught that this is how God made us. But this idea derives from philosophy, not divine inspiration. There are no such words in the Bible. It was Athenagorus, a Christian, but whose teachings, were strongly tinged with Platonism, had introduced the teaching of an immortal soul into Christianity. In so doing, he paved the way for the introduction of eternal torment for immortal, but sinful, souls. This was a hundred years and more after the time of the apostles, and came straight from popular philosophy. The apostles had consistently taught that death is a sleep, to be followed by resurrection. The early church leaders – Clement, Ignatius, Hermas, Polycarp, and others who also believed that death is a sleep, taught that the wicked are destroyed forever by fire – their punishment was to be annihilation. These leaders did not teach of an immortal soul to be tortured by fire in hell for eternity."" http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com/documents/death/origin-of-hell-fire.php#.Vxefhkjn8qJ

Even in the parable of the rich man and lazarus, Christ condescends to the level of the pagan beliefs which had infiltrated into the pharisees teachings in an effort to demonstrate the stupidity of such a false doctrine. Here is a great video to watch wherein Pastor Stephen Bohr goes into great detail on the subject.

Had the Bible not been kept from the people during the Dark Ages, this idiotic, satanic, pagan belief would never have prospered to the extent we see today. Instead, we have that, as well as, a multitude of other pagan practices branded as Christianity and foisted on the unsuspecting public as "Tradition". Even worse is the fact that with such a vast preponderance of evidence throughout the Bible that clearly points to the obliteration of sin and sinners the advocates of eternal torment are forced to labor diligently in a futile effort to sweep it all under the rug or misrepresent Bible passages in order to perpetuate their pagan belief.



"Tormented day and night for ever and ever":
I am astonished (even flabbergasted) at how lazy people really are when it comes to interpreting scripture... it just blows me away the details they miss out on because they don't (or won't) diligently study the whole Bible.
For example, the below texts taken from the book of Revelation are frequently distorted and taken out of context and twisted to fit the false doctrine of "never ending torture" for the lost.

[ Rev 19:20-21
"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."]

This, in and of itself, is a long and detailed study, so for the sake of time I'll unpack this as briefly as I can. To learn what a "beast" is and what it means we must start with the book of Daniel.

A vision is given in Daniel 7:3 "And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another". Later in chapter eight Gabriel interprets Daniel's vision revealing that the beasts represent kingdoms (or political powers for a more modern term).
These beasts (political powers) which "came up from the sea" are the various kingdoms that (then) held world dominance down through time leading up to the antichrist "beast" power.
When you get to verse eight we find, "I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great (blasphemous) things." In Chapter 8, Gabriel explains the details/identities of the various beast powers. Which, by the way, direct us down through time to provide us with the precise identity of the antichrist beast power (papal rome).
When we get to Revelation chapter 13:5-6 "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months (1260 literal years 538ad to 1798ad also known as the dark ages of papal supremacy). And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven." and in Rev 17:3-4 "he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:"

To understand the meaning of the symbol of the water (or sea):
Revelation 17:15 "And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the "No name calling" sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." In other words, densely populated areas. Which by itself gives us a clue as to what the symbol of the Earth represents... a sparsely populated area. Rev 13:11 "And I beheld another beast (political power) coming up out of the Earth; and he had two horns like a lamb (a nation professing Christian attributes), and he spake as a dragon (a nation practicing the works and attributes of satan)." Which is a precise, unmistakable (and very unfortunate) description of the United States.

In Rev 12 we have a virtuous woman representing Gods church and, in contrast, Rev 17 portrays the great "No name calling" sitting on the scarlet beast representing a false religious system riding on the back of (controlling) a political power (a union of church and state) constituting the (antichrist) "beast" commonly known as Papal Rome, a religious/political system.

Isn't it wonderful how the Bible speaks for itself, especially when the angels spell it out in plain and simple terms what those symbols mean. So with all that in mind lets take another look at the scripture in question and see what it really says shall we?


Rev 19:20-21 Referring to the Second coming:
"And the beast (the papal system) was taken, and with him the false prophet ( the system of apostate protestantism) that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark (enforced sunday worship) of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both (the papal system and the apostate protestantism system) were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant (the wicked humans) were slain (put to death) with the sword of Him (the second coming of Christ) that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of His mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."
Remember Jeremiah 4: 25 "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled." Sound familiar? Jeremiah was shown (in vision) the condition of the Earth and the wicked (who were dead) during the thousand years after Christ's second coming.
Also, satans thousand years of torment will be nasty since, with nowhere to go, he's stuck on Earth to reap the fruits of his rebellion and to suffer the agony of knowing what's to come. Satan will have nobody to tempt, nobody to pester, all his wicked followers have been slain by the brightness of Christ's return, the redeemed have been taken to heaven... he's all alone with only his rage to keep him warm (awww... poor baby).

Rev 20:10 Referring to after the thousand years:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Anyway, the beast and the false prophet are political/religious systems working together to persecute Gods people. And once again we encounter that term "for ever" which those attempting to perpetuate the false doctrine of never ending torture keep having great difficulty maintaining context (let alone understand).
You see, when kept in proper context their "torment" (as painful as it is) does, in fact, come to an end as previously defined above in Part 2 "The Term "Forever"."
Do not misunderstand, man will only suffer for the sins of a lifetime while satan must suffer for the sins of all the redeemed, which have been transferred back to him. This suffering will take a while for sure but it will eventually come to an end.

For more Bible symbols and their meaning go to http://www.adventisthub.com/symbols--signs.html#sthash.dmDIIfya.HAsiGZwM.dpbs. (Or better still, just contact your local Seventh Day Adventist Chruch, they are the only organized church that I can find that will provide you with a complete, comprehensive and accurate list of Bible symbols.)


Gehenna: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Gehenna Jerusalem was the "city dump", and back in Christ's time it was, for obvious sanitary reasons, kept burning. Which is why Christ considered it a suitable example.
Gehenna was where refuse was disposed of, it also happened to be the place where animal carcass's and the bodies of condemned (executed) criminals were disposed of. The criminals were executed and their lifeless bodies were shamed even further by being tossed in the city dump as trash. Christ used this imagery of the (already dead) carcass's of the wicked being eaten on by the worms (maggots) and eventually destroyed by fire to illustrate the final destruction that awaits the wicked.
Maggots only feed on dead tissue (not living tissue) and there will be plenty to feast on until the fire burns up whats left fo the wicked. Furthermore, there will be no one to quench the fire, I don't know about you but I have no intention of trying to put out the fire and no one else will want to either. Since the wicked will be dead they won't be able to put the fire out.

More important is the fact that the source of the fire is God Himself... you think you got what it takes to put God "out"?!? Good luck with that.

Hebrews 12:29 "For our God is a consuming fire."

1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

Without the gift of eternal life, the wicked don't stand a chance, God will cease to provide continued life support (turns His back) to the wicked which will cause them to simply die resulting in His presence becoming a relentless devouring inferno that (eventually) reduces the remains to ashes.

Gehenna is not burning today... that fire went out long ago when it ran out of fuel. So attempts by Dave (and others like him) to use this illustration as an example of eternal torture are desperately grasping at straws.

Part 8
The Seven Years of Tribulation.

Dave brought it up, so here's (the super short version) how this ridiculous false teaching got started.
As Protestant reformers began studying the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation they quickly and correctly re-discovered the identity of the antichrist beast power as Papal Rome.
Papal Rome, in order to divert attention away from themselves (back around 1500AD) commissioned a Jesuit "priest" by the name of Francis Xavier to come up with an alternate interpretation. Xavier took from Daniel 9, 24-27 the prophetic week (seven literal years) of Christs ministry out of context and deliberately misinterpreted it in order to put the identity/arrival, of the antichrist into some unknown future time. The seven year tribulation doctrine concocted by Xavier didn't begin to gain popularity until about 1830 when John Darby came across documents written by Xavier and incorporated notes from said documents into his bible. Cyrus Scofield got his hands on those notes and now we have the Scofield Bible which was studied by most of the "Brimstone and Fire" preachers eventually reaching the attention of Hal Lindsey who incorporated those false teachings in his book "The Late Great Planet Earth" (1977) which quickly gained popularity and to this day is frequently repeated as "bible doctrine" in apostate churches (isn't it interesting the lengths people will go to in order to ignore Gods Holy Word just to cling to a false doctrine that came from a person who was paid by the antichrist beast power to intentionally misrepresent/misinterpret scripture).

These are just a couple examples of false teachings that are taught from spiritual "babylon" (confusion by means of false doctrine aka pagan "traditions") that we are warned about in Revelation 14:8 "And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine (false doctrine) of the wrath of her fornication." Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

I wonder:
How much longer will you remain in spiritual "babylon"?
How much longer will you grieve the Holy Spirit with your willful apostasy?
How desperate are you to "partake of her sins" and "receive of her plagues" ?
She "mystery, babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the Earth" is destined to destruction... so why choose you to cling to a sinking ship?

So long as Dave and others like him choose to remain in "spiritual babylon" by clinging to pagan traditions, then they are on the road to destruction. I don't want to see them or anyone else end up being obliterated but if that's what they really want then who am I to stand in the way?
So long as they don't drag anyone down with them.

******************************************************************************

Part 7.

Conclusions:

We're on better than solid ground to conclude that life and death are polar opposites and only the redeemed are given eternal life while the lost are completely destroyed.

The source of the doctrine of eternal torture is ultimately traceable back to the "father of lies" satan and perpetuated by godless, apostate institutions as well as parroted by poor individuals who've been duped by those false doctrines.

When pressed, adherents of eternal torment have an impossible time finding legitimate biblical support for their position and naturally resort to, attempts to redefine words commonly used throughout the scripture (aka; shifting the goalpost fallacy), arguments based on extra-biblical pagan mythology (appeal to authority, fallacy) of an apostate church, all combined with a flagrant (almost insulting) butchering of the scripture... just look at Daves posts for examples.

Studying this subject really is easy, granted, it is time consuming, but very easy (and also liberating) so long as one is willing to follow the truth to its logical conclusion.

Dave (or someone else) will no doubt want to continue to mindlessly argue this (or some other) matter, picking at every little nit they imagine to exist, but unless they can provide a direct quote from scripture where God states clearly and explicitly that He will endow eternal life upon the wicked (which would be quite a feat, since that verse happens to be conspicuously absent from the Bible), then its safe to conclude they haven't a leg to stand on.

Ah well, come what may, at least I'll have the satisfaction of knowing that some poor soul will read all that I have posted and be persuaded to persue a reasonable, honest study of the subject, by which they will discover, learn and be set free by the truth of Gods word and be properly equipped to spot and avoid the vast multitude of false teachers/teachings that plague human society.

Happy Holidays
God Bless.

Max. :acigar:



#12 Bmaxdlux

Bmaxdlux

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 09:20 PM

Dave's OP

 

Posted 20 March 2016 - 07:20 PM

Quote

This and many other subjects are ridiculously easy to understand so long as the student is

willing enough to do so through a intellectually honest and diligent study of the Holy Bible.

??

Unfortunately, the problem will only persist as there are people too lazy to research

the matter to its logical conclusion, as is evident in (for example) some of the posts in this

thread.

??

So, please research the matter instead of misrepresenting God by posting misleading information

such as "punishing the wicked by torturing them throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity" non-

sense.

--Bmaxdlux from the Value of a Human Being topic in the Miscellaneous forum with a challenge to rightly divide scripture concerning eternal torment in the lake of fire.

This essay is my answer to the challenge posed by Bmaxdlux (hereinafter, Max) concerning eternal torment of the unsaved, which came up in the thread titled, Value of a Human Being, in the Miscellaneous forum.

Max holds to the annihilationism interpretation of scripture that says that the wicked are cast into the lake of fire where they are completely burned up, once and done, hence the term annihilated.

I hold to the clear meaning of God’s word in scripture that the wicked suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire.

Both views appear to be supported by scripture. But I will show why the doctrine of annihilationism is a false doctrine, and that the holders of that doctrine misinterpret the scripture that they believe upholds their view.

To begin:

In order to fully understand and interpret scripture used by both sides in this debate one must accurately parse the expressions used. The problem is that although a word in English might render itself with one meaning that we associate with it in common usage, it might, and very likely will, have a different, but distinctly precise, meaning in the biblical languages of Greek and Hebrew.

It is the misinterpretation of many of the key expressions in scripture that leads to many of the false doctrines floating around in the church today.

The one that is pertinent to our discussion is misinterpreting the meaning of the words death, die, dead, etc.

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Max:
Read Post#10 and 11 wherin you will find both strongs and the bibles definitions of death, die and dead... etc.. These all thwart your attempt to misdirect others from the clear meaning of those simple terms.

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Dave:
In English common usage when somebody dies, from our earthly perspective he or she ceases to exist … is non-existent, or annihilated, so to speak. One can’t be faulted for thinking this is so when seeing this word in print.

But someone who preaches what he believes to be an important doctrine must be sensitive to varied usage of words in scripture, and must discern that the common-usage meaning might not be God’s meaning, and interpret it correctly.

In the Greek language of the New Testament, and biblically speaking, death is never defined as extinction, annihilation, non-existence or unconsciousness.

You must let this sink in before proceeding: Death in the Bible is always pictured as the separation between two things.

I’m going to dwell on this for a bit because if one has a clear understanding of the different kinds of "death" in scripture, and which state of the person that experiences the death, most of the problems with annihilationism simply go away.

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Max:
Then if you wish to discredit the biblical teaching of annihilationism then simply provide a direct quote from scripture where God explicitly states giving eternal life to the wicked... don't worry, we'll wait.
******************************************************************************

Dave:
Also, keep in mind something that is related to this, and that is extremely important: Make sure you recognize whether scripture concerning death refers to death of the body, death of the soul or death of the spirit. Anyone who is confused about which of the states of man has experienced death simply will never be able to understand the verses in which death appears.

Also, fixing the correct time of events referenced in scripture is vitally important to not misinterpreting.

For example, Max referenced Malachi 4:1 as one of his examples of scripture that supported annihilationism.

Quote

Malachi 4:1

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." (Max’s bolds)

Max’s comment on this verse:

This verse clearly indicates that there is a particular day (future tense, meaning it's not happening right now) in which the wicked will be introduced into the Lake of Fire and that fire will destroy them completely. (His emphases)

The problem with Max’s interpretation of this verse is one of context and timing. Malachi 4:1 does not refer to the wicked being cast into the lake of fire. That comes much later.

What Malachi 4:1 does refer to is the Day of the Lord, which is Christ’s second returning at the end of the seven-year tribulation. That return involves the burning up of the earth, and the cleansing of the earth of the wicked who survived the tribulation. It ushers in the 1,000-year earthly reign of Christ, called the millennium, in which only the saved in Christ can enter.

The wicked do indeed get burned up. Their bodies! Let that sink in. Not their souls nor their spirits. Those will be dealt with later during the second death. Their earthly bodies will indeed cease to exist on earth. But they, meaning their souls and spirits, have not been annihilated.


******************************************************************************
Max:
Read post#10 and 11 so you'll learn how the bible defines a soul and what the breath of life (spirit) is. Also note, "it shall leave them neither root (satan) nor branch (satans followers)" meaning if there's nothing left, then there's nothing left... no body=no life... duh.
Please post a Bible verse that directly states the tribulation will last seven years... don't worry, we'll wait.

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Dave:
"Do you see how important it is to fix the right time referenced in scripture as well as to whom or what is being acted on?

Malachi 4:1 is simply and clearly not a supporting verse for the false doctrine of annihilationism.

To continue with the explanation of death meaning separation:

Before I start, I’ll remind of what most already know. A person’s body is his or her physical presence on this earth. The soul is a person’s mind, will and emotions … basically what makes up a person’s consciousness, which can live on beyond his or her physical death. And a person’s spirit is the part that connects one to God, which also can live on without a body or soul. These short definitions will be important later.

In short:

Physical death is a separation of the body and soul, as in Eccl 12:7.

Spiritual death is a separation of man from God, as in Isa 59:1-2

Second death is a spiritual separation of man from God, as in Rev 21:18, 22:14-15
Dead to sin is a separation of Christians from sin, as in Rom 6:2, 11 and Heb 7:26

Dead to law is a separation of Christians from law, as in Rom 7:4

Marriage dissolved by death is separation of man from woman, as in 1 Cor 7:39

Note that of the six examples of death only two involve a physical death of the body. It’s important for annihilationists to keep that in mind when parsing scripture to support their view."


******************************************************************************
Max:
Dave is attempting to move the goal post (fallacy) by re-defining/mis-applying the meaning of death, soul and spirit (breath of life).

Read post#10 and 11 so you'll understand biblical death and how those verses tie into each other.
******************************************************************************

Dave:
"For example, they are quick to jump on death of the wicked anywhere in scripture as total extinction of a person’s body, soul and spirit."

******************************************************************************
Max:
Read post#10 and 11 so you'll learn how the bible defines the breath of life (spirit). And please provide a direct quote from scripture that explicitly states God giving eternal life to the wicked... don't worry, we'll wait. Furthermore, when God says death in regard to the demise of the wicked He's referring to the ultimate consequences of sin... Duh!
******************************************************************************

Dave:
"With that in mind, how do they deal with the event in Gen 2:17?

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (My bold)

They did eat of the tree in Gen 3:6. They didn’t die, but lived on for centuries and populated the earth.

Did God lie? Did God change his mind? Is God capricious?"


******************************************************************************
Max:
God said "You will surley die" and satan says "you won't surley die"... hmm... you sure seem intent on supporting satans position of calling God a lier. Are you a follower of satan?!? Read Post #10 and 11 Don't worry, we'll wait.
******************************************************************************

Dave:
No. They did surely die a spiritual death that day, banished from the garden, forever outside of God’s presence.

******************************************************************************
Max:
Read post#10 and 11... don't worry, we'll wait.
******************************************************************************

Dave:
"Annihilationists would say, "That’s obvious!" And it is. But they then fail to provide the same depth of meaning to other scripture that would be equally as obvious to them were it not for the built-in annihilationism bias they bring to their reading.

The lesson here is that one must strive to understand the relationship between death and the state of person that is subject to that death. A totally misconstrued view of doctrine results from not doing that properly.

Here’s another verse where refusing to correctly parse a death event results in much confusion.

Quote

Rev 21:8:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This verse is often used to support the annihilationist’s view. On the surface, it seems to.

However, the word for death here is thanatos in the Greek.

Here is Strong’s Concordance translation for thanatos in context:

"The misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after death of the body in hell. The miserable state of the wicked dead in hell. In the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin …" (My bold)
I’ll have a section on the second death below, but suffice it to say that Rev 21:8 does not support the annihilationist’s view, as it was never intended to."

******************************************************************************
Max:
Read post#10 and 11 so you'll learn how Strong's (source link provided so you can verify it for yourselves) and the bible define death.
****************************************************************************

Dave:
"Another example provided by Max:

Quote

Matthew 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Max’s comment on this verse:

(The results of the punishment are eternal): but (only) the righteous into life eternal. ??

Only the righteous get eternal life NOT the wicked, they (the wicked) only get death.

I hope everyone is starting to get the (above and beyond obvious) point. (Max’s emphases)

Aside from the fact that everlasting and eternal are virtually synonymous, convey the same meaning, and are the same word in Greek, there is one other serious issue with trying to morph this verse into an apologetic for the annihilation view.

If we go to 1 John 4:18, we see the phrase "because fear hath torment." What’s interesting is that the word for torment here is the same Greek word for punishment in the Matthew 25:46 verse above, kolasis."

******************************************************************************

Max:
Dave attempts a major quote mine (fallacy) above because:

From http://biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm we have:
Kolasis
Strong's Concordance

kolasis: correctionOriginal Word: κόλασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-as-is)
Short Definition: chastisement, punishment
Definition: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation.

What makes this a quote mine is Daves attempt to overlook the word "fear" in context of the quoted text. Proper context, however, indicates that the fear of coming destruction, in and of itself, is a form of punishment.

1 John 4:18 "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love."

I recommend the readers to read 1 John (the whole book) to get a better understanding of the context.

Simply put, those like myself who dwell in Gods love, have no fear of the second death (or death in general for that matter) because Christ died the second death on the cross on our behalf.
But those who reject Christ's sacrifice on the cross are without the love of God and live in fear of the second death, just as the fallen angels know that the coming inevitable deprivation of life causes them to tremble.


******************************************************************************
Dave:

One of my favorite Bible teachers has a saying that if you submit the data to enough torture it will confess to anything you want it to.

That is the case here. In the Greek, it is difficult to wrap one’s brain around the false notion that the result of everlasting torment is eternal, but the torment itself is not eternal. Everlasting torment is not a once and done thing. Torment is an ongoing, continuous process, as is shown elsewhere in scripture.

******************************************************************************
Max:
Care to provide some of that scriptural support... without quote mining or attempting to redefine the term "forever".
*****************************************************************************

Dave:
OK. Enough with death. There are a lot more, but I believe I’ve provided enough examples to show that one can’t just assume that death and all its derivative words in scripture can automatically be taken to mean totally ceasing to exist … body, soul and spirit.

I’m hoping those examples would prompt one to keep in view the body, soul and spirit and the six or more kinds of death that could be possible when reading any verse about death in the Bible. Math says there could be 18 difference combinations of possibilities in each verse … even more in verses with two or more usages.

If I may digress for a final example, here's one from Max’s post illustrating this:

Quote

Ezekiel 18:20

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

Max’s comment:

The bold and underlined part above does not say the wicked get eternal life, it flatly states that sinners DIE!!!

Max, what dies? Look at it again.


******************************************************************************
Max:
Covered in post#10 and 11.
******************************************************************************

Dave:
It’s what I mean by being careful to not equate the body with the soul with the spirit. God is always very clear, even if one has to look carefully for it, about which state of man’s existence he is talking about.

Now, I want to talk about fire.

This is important because fire figures heavily in judgment, and is very prominent in the final days judgments as well as in the eponymously named lake of fire.

One of the big problems that annihilationists have with the lake of fire that never quenches is that they believe fire always burns up, and things being burned simply disappear into nothing or into ash.

However, God has provided us with at least three instances of a fire that never quenches.

An example that every kid in Sunday school learns about is the fiery furnace in Daniel. There, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were cast into the fiery furnace, and were seen walking around unscathed from the flames; except for their rope bindings, which were burned off.


******************************************************************************
Max:
Quote mine (fallacy), attempted strawman (fallacy) from Dave.
Dilligent students who actually study the book of Daniel discover the following
;

Daniel 3:20-22 "And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace. Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flames of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego."
Hmmm... the fire "slew" the wicked men who cast Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego into the furnace.
And yet the presence of God saved His followers Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the flames.
Daniel 3:25 "He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."

Gee Dave... why did you leave out that little detail? (dishonest much?)
They (Gods people) were not harmed by the fire because God was with them... Duh!
Makes a big difference when you don't quote mine and observe proper context doesn't it?
Not only were they (as followers of the lamb) not harmed by the "trial of fire", the same fire consumed the wicked men who threw them in.
The fact is, (to your detriment) this is just another example of the presence of God protecting His people while at the same time demonstrating that His presence is a consuming inferno to the wicked.


******************************************************************************

Dave:
Another example would be Moses twice meeting God as a flame of fire that did not consume the bush.

Could not the God who has the power to prevent the men from being burned up in the fiery furnace, and prevent the bush from being consumed while on fire also have the ability to preserved the bodies of the wicked from being consumed in the lake of fire?

******************************************************************************
Max:
Already demonstrated above with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. And also serves as an example of you distorting the word of God. Especially since the bush represents Gods people and the Shekinah Glory of God preserving/protecting them.
So... as soon as you provide a bible verse wherin God specifically grants eternal life to the wicked we can bring this matter to a close. Don't worry, we'll wait.

******************************************************************************

Dave:
I don’t want to be the one to pronounce a limitation on God like that.

******************************************************************************
Max:
That's all you've been doing this whole time.
By upholding satans lie you imply that God isn't powerfull enough to destroy the wicked.
That's what I would call pronouncing a limitation on God (which happens to be outright blasphemy).
Furthermore you're calling God a lier by supporting satans first lie "you won't surley die".
At this point you'd better rethink your position because siding with satan is a sure way for you to end up being destroyed in the lake of fire.

******************************************************************************

Dave:
But, what twisted machinations would the annihilationists use to deny the clear telling of the fire that is not quenched that we see here?

******************************************************************************

Max:
We don't have to twist anything, we would start with;
From
http://biblehub.com/greek/762.htm where we find;

762. asbestos
Strong's Concordance

asbestos: unquenched, unquenchable Original Word: ἄσβεστος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: asbestos
Phonetic Spelling: (as'-bes-tos)
Short Definition: inextinguishable, unquenchable
Definition: inextinguishable, unquenchable.

Which means (as it pertains to their demise) when the wicked are cast into this unquenchable fire, no one will be able to put it out (quench it)... it reduces you to ashes (that is: it runs out of stuff to burn) as per the context of Malachi 4:1 . And since the wicked are not granted eternal life (in any form) then you have quite a problem on your hands don't you... unless you can provide a bible verse where God specifically grants eternal life to the wicked.
We're (still) waiting!!!  :kaffeetrinker:
 

******************************************************************************

Dave:
Quote

Mark 9:47-49

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. (My bold)

Let's not play games with doctrinal bias here. The plain meaning of the text is:

The … fire … is … not … quenched. Period. End of story.

******************************************************************************
Max:
Darn right... look up.

******************************************************************************
Dave:

What figure of speech could be dredged up that could undermine the absolutely, perfectly, unquestioning clear meaning of those words?

******************************************************************************
Max:
Just take a look at the nonsense you've been spewing forth and you'll have your answer.
******************************************************************************

Dave:
And, just in case anybody wants to try to deny that God means what he said, he put in a little zinger for them. Salt is a preservative. God tells us that those cast into the lake of fire will be salted with fire, which means the fire will be preserved from going out. But, that little tit bit would only be available to someone looking at scripture deeper than just into the surface meaning.

"But, Dave," I can hear the annihilationists say, "I’ll accept that the fire never goes out, but that doesn’t prove the wicked won’t be immediately killed by the fire."

Fair enough. Let’s look at these two verses taken together.

Quote

Rev 19:20

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (My bolds)

I believe at this point, the reader should be able to discern for himself that this scripture is crystal clear that:

1. The beast and false prophet were both cast alive into the lake of fire …

2. 1,000 years later, they are still alive in the lake of fire when the devil was cast into it with them.


******************************************************************************
Max:
Answered in Post #10 and 11.
Also, regarding salt, during the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah God "salted" the area as a future symbol to indicate that sin/sinners (once destroyed in the second death) shall never rise a second time and to further symbolize the purifying of the earth in preparation to recreate the "new heavens and the new Earth".
He did not do it to preserve the lives of the wicked. Salt does, however, have a cleansing effect on the righteous but that is a process that occurs before the return of Christ.
The wicked will also be "salted with fire" but since they've rejected The Lamb of God (Christ) then they've rejected the gift of eternal life, so to the wicked this "salting with fire" destroys them... completely.
Anyway, to refute annihilationism, please post a bible verse where God specifically grants eternal life to the wicked.

******************************************************************************

Dave:
3. And -- this is absolutely crystal clear -- they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And, as God often does, he anticipates those who would corrupt his word by providing a proof text:

The devil, the antichrist and the false prophet will endure torment in the unquenchable fire along with all those in Rev 14:11 who will be cast in there and "have no rest day or night."

Have no rest day or night for ... what ... two days, two weeks, 90 days? No. For ... ever.

It’s interesting that torment here is translated from a different word in Greek than the other torment. The word is basanizo.

The translation for this word in context gives me shivers:

To question by applying torture, to torture, to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment, to be harassed, distressed

Is there any expression in scripture that could possibly be less ambiguous in meaning than what God told the author of Revelation to write what he is planning for the unrepentant sinner who dies outside of Christ?



******************************************************************************
Max:
Read Post #10 and 11 especially the section titled "Tormented day and night for ever and ever"


So, when placed BACK INTO CONTEXT we have:
A description of what will happen just before Christ's return:
Rev 14: 9-14 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Followed immediately by a description of those who will be able to stand:
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
Followed by the harvest of the Earth which marks the beginning of the thousand years.

You'll find this pattern repeated over and over in Revelation.
And still, there is nothing there to indicate God granting eternal life to anyone other than the redeemed.



******************************************************************************


Dave:
OK. Now to address Max’s comment on this verse.

Quote

Max’s comments:

Before anybody jumps up and says "SEE, SEE I TOLD YOU SO!!! THAT MEANS IT BURNS FOREVER!!!!!"

First off, for the sake of brevity I only provided a few verses of scripture (out of a multitude available) that indicate the lake of fire doesn't last forever since, as stated above in Revelation Verses 20:15 through 21:1 Earth gets a rebuild after the lake of fire does its job.

Therefore, when taken in context of the entire Bible, the Lake of Fire cannot literally last forever, it only burns until there is no sin left for it to burn. (Max’s emphases)

What Max’s comment does is very handily point out why I believe that any serious student of the Bible should thoroughly study, understand and master the book of Revelation.

The fact is that the lake of fire is not located on the earth. Max is correct in stating that the present earth will be destroyed by fire after the millennium and before the new heaven of New Jerusalem descends to be our final heaven.

******************************************************************************

Max:
Dave, correcting your blunderous mistakes is quickly growing wearisome.
Pay close attention to the sequence of events contained in Revelation.


Rev 20:7-9 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Any more bold assertion fallacies up your sleeve? :kaffeetrinker: 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Max:
What Dave says next is just epic.

******************************************************************************

Dave says;
"Max and others might be getting confused by the several different hells, hades, Abraham’s bosom, bottomless pits, abyssos, etc., referenced in scripture, which do indeed exist somewhere in the earth. "


******************************************************************************
Max:
Really?!? I'm tempted to ask you to flesh that out but considering your current outpouring of foolishness I just don't have the time for it.

Seriously Dave... (sigh) you must have overdosed on laxatives to type out such a load.

It's now safe to say your above statement has sent your only remaining shred of credibility swirling down the drain.

What Dave says next is dealt with in post 10 and 11 so... no point in beating a dead horse.

******************************************************************************

Dave:
Finally, I’d like to address the second death since it figures heavily in annihilationism doctrine … mainly in that they believe that any mention of second death equates to an annihilation death of body, soul and spirit.

However, in each use of the term second death in scripture, all in Revelation by the way, it refers to a spiritual death, and is reserved for those wicked who die outside of Christ.

Think of it this way. You know about the first birth, and being born again. Are you like those who questioned Jesus about how someone could exit their mother’s womb again as an adult?

No. You of course understand that the first birth is the physical one of the body, and that the second birth is a spiritual one. Right?

God promised that "it is appointed unto men once to die." –Heb 9:27. That applies to those who die in Christ.

******************************************************************************
Max:
There you go quote mining (fallacy) again.
Heb 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment":
Why did you leave out that little tidbit?
Read Post 10 to see examples indicating a stark contrast between life (given ONLY to the redeemed) and death (a sentence of execution pronounced on the wicked).
To refute, please post a bible verse where God specifically grants eternal life to the wicked.
So far your entire argument appears to rest on the false assumption that man inherently possesses an immortal soul (or whatever). So until you produce a bible verse where God specifically grants eternal life to the wicked you would do well to stop projecting your false beliefs upon the Word of God.


******************************************************************************
Dave:
However, those who die outside of Christ will face a second death … of their spirits when they are thrown into the lake of fire.

As stated earlier here, the second death means the unsaved are to be forever separated from the presence of God.

******************************************************************************
Max:
Read Post #10 and 11 for a proper definition of "spirit" as it is applied to man.

Never forget, God is omnipresent, His Kingdom begins with God and extends to literally everywhere. The only way for sinners to "depart from His presence" is to eliminate them from existence, they cannot be relocated to some other part of the universe because there is simply nowhere that God isn't. Sin is a destructive malignant cancer in Gods Kingdom that the great healer must completely eradicate in order to ensure eternal peace, safety and harmony throughout His Kingdom.

******************************************************************************

Dave:
Quote

Rev 20:14

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

This is a strange phrase until you realize that it refers to those who have already died once, and who must be dispatched to the lake of fire to die again.

******************************************************************************
Max:

It's not strange, and I addressed it in post 10 and 11. :kaffeetrinker: 

******************************************************************************

Dave:
It begs the question: Who have already died once? With a few exceptions everybody who has ever lived and not been raptured or caught up without dying, will die once.

But, who will die again … the second death? Only those who died outside of Christ.

The important factor here is that this second death is not a physical death, which is manifested on earth by decaying into nothingness. It is a death of the spirit to God, in which those resurrected bodies of the unsaved are tormented forever in the unquenchable fire.

I’m done. I’m tired.

Max, I’m betting that neither you nor anybody else on this forum will ever say to me again:

Quote

Unfortunately, the problem will only persist as there are people too lazy to research the matter to its logical conclusion, as is evident in (for example) some of the posts in this thread. So, please research the matter instead of misrepresenting God…

I did as you asked. To great length, I believe much to the detriment of those who hold the belief in annihilationism.

******************************************************************************
Max:

Seriously Dave, I've had enough... at this particular point your "argument" is a joke, your "knowledge" of scripture is so far beneath "amature" level it's laughable, your research sources seem limited to anywhere but the Bible and when you actually did "quote" the Bible your (willful?) butchering of scripture only succeeded in sending your credibility swirling down the drain.

You've wasted enough of my time.

The best part is that some honest seeker of truth will "stumble" in here from a google search, read our exchange, get the bible out and research the matter thus becoming better able to spot the errors that you're perpetuating and be overjoyed by the fact that in the age to come there will in no way, shape or form remain so much as a speck of sin or sinners anywhere in Gods infinite kingdom.

So... considering you don't have a leg to stand on (and your credibility is no longer worth spit) I must say (once again)...
"Unfortunately, the problem will only persist as there are people too lazy to research the matter to its logical conclusion, as is evident in (for example) some of the posts in this thread. So, please research the matter instead of misrepresenting God…"



Note to Readers:
Much of Daves nonsense in post #5 is dealt with in post #10 and 11.
It was easier that way as addressing his foolishness has taken way too much of my time.

Also, if I were you, don't expect Dave to produce a single scripture wherin God states giving eternal life to the wicked. Instead, I suggest you beware of such false teachers, because according to Isaiah 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

I advise all to prayerfully search the scriptures for yourselves and draw your own conclusions.

I said it in post 10, and I'll say it again, I don't hate Dave (or anyone else for that matter), I just wish people would take Gods word more seriously so they don't end up as one of the "foolish virgins" to whom God declares (in Matthew 25:12) "But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not." Just the knowledge of being eternally lost (once God makes them aware of it) will be such an excruciating experience to the wicked that they will welcome the painful sting of annihilation. And I do not want anyone to go through THAT experience.


Happy Holidays to all.
God bless.
Hopefully (maybe) see you next year as time permits.

Max  :acigar: 



#13 Dave

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 04:26 PM

Like probably everyone else I only skimmed through Max’s two huge “wall of text times 1,000” posts here. I can handle only so much bloated cut-and-paste from the Internet, and arrogant, snarky, ad-hominem attack before my eyes glaze over and I completely lose interest.

 

But, for the purpose of anybody remaining who might be following this “debate” I’d like to reiterate that I stand by my OP. Basically, my refutation consists of something lacking in Max’s posts … one word, “context.”

 

Before I get into that, however, I’d like to point out I’ve come to realize in this exchange with Max that, like debates over OSAS, last days, Calvinism/Arminianism, etc., that have taken place on this board and elsewhere, Max’s doctrine is informed by his misinterpretation of Scripture … which is ultimately driven by ideology. In my experience when ideology takes precedence in people’s thinking no amount of objective truth can budge wrong thinking from their minds.

 

So then, all I ask the reader to do is consider the context when comparing and contrasting my and Max’s interpretation of Scripture leading up to the decision as to whether annihilation or eternal punishment is the lost person’s final destiny.

 

Here is a crude little matrix to aid with that. Think of it as a chart with an X axis and a Y axis:

 

                                      Body            Soul            Spirit

Physical death          |                    |                   |

Spiritual death          |                    |                   |

Second death           |                    |                   |

Dead to sin              |                    |                   |

Dead to law             |                    |                   |

 

Virtually every Bible verse mentioning any of these things can be placed into this matrix somewhere.

 

For example, when God said in Gen. 2:17 for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” which death was He referring to? Which part of Adam, his body, soul or spirit?

 

Additionally, the matrix could also be fleshed out with regard to timing and location ... both important considerations in rightly dividing the truth of God’s word.

 

Get the placement on the matrix right, and your following interpretations will begin to make more sense. Do that objectively and without clinging to an ideological bias and God’s intended purpose of eternal punishment will become crystal clear.

 

Remember, it’s all about context. And some of the greatest, longest-lasting, and most divisive debates over differences of doctrine occur because of  lack of understanding of or unwillingness to admit context.

 

Finally, something to strongly consider when thinking about this debate is that there is virtually no difference between the annihilationist position and one that an atheist would take.

 

Ask an atheist what he thinks (hopes) will happen to him when he dies after a lifetime of unbelief and sin. His answer of course is that nothing happens, he just ceases to exist. If you push him further by saying he might have to endure a moment or two of punishment before ceasing to exist he will say, “No problem.” He certainly hasn’t been given any incentive to change his ways, has he?

 

That's mighty convenient for the atheist, but hardly something that God had intended to be taken from His word.

 

But, isn’t that exactly what the annihilationist-believing Christian believes? Basically he and the atheist hold to the same doctrine. I’d certainly want to reconsider if I ever found myself in that position.



#14 Bmaxdlux

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Posted 27 November 2016 - 09:14 PM

As predicted Dave continues to spew nonsense.   

My comments in red.

Like probably everyone else I only skimmed through Max’s two huge “wall of text times 1,000” posts here. I can handle only so much bloated cut-and-paste from the Internet, and arrogant, snarky, ad-hominem attack before my eyes glaze over and I completely lose interest.

In other words your too lazy to research the matter to its logical conclusion (what a surprise)... thanks for validating my position.  :funny: 

 

 

But, for the purpose of anybody remaining who might be following this “debate” I’d like to reiterate that I stand by my OP. Basically, my refutation consists of something lacking in Max’s posts … one word, “context.”

 

Your lack of proper context was exposed in post 12. 

 

Before I get into that, however, I’d like to point out I’ve come to realize in this exchange with Max that, like debates over OSAS, last days, Calvinism/Arminianism, etc., that have taken place on this board and elsewhere, Max’s doctrine is informed by his misinterpretation of Scripture … which is ultimately driven by ideology. In my experience when ideology takes precedence in people’s thinking no amount of objective truth can budge wrong thinking from their minds.

Posts 10 and 11 show proper definitions as well as the biblical context. You'd know that if you had taken the trouble to actually read it.  :smashfreak: 
 

So then, all I ask the reader to do is consider the context when comparing and contrasting my and Max’s interpretation of Scripture leading up to the decision as to whether annihilation or eternal punishment is the lost person’s final destiny.

 

Here is a crude little matrix to aid with that. Think of it as a chart with an X axis and a Y axis:

 

                                      Body            Soul            Spirit

Physical death          |                    |                   |

Spiritual death          |                    |                   |

Second death           |                    |                   |

Dead to sin              |                    |                   |

Dead to law             |                    |                   |

 

Virtually every Bible verse mentioning any of these things can be placed into this matrix somewhere.

 

For example, when God said in Gen. 2:17 for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” which death was He referring to? Which part of Adam, his body, soul or spirit?

 

Already exposed your attempt to move the goalpost (fallacy) in posts 10, 11 and 12 so going over that again would be... :icon_deadhorse: 

 

 

Additionally, the matrix could also be fleshed out with regard to timing and location ... both important considerations in rightly dividing the truth of God’s word.

 

Get the placement on the matrix right, and your following interpretations will begin to make more sense. Do that objectively and without clinging to an ideological bias and God’s intended purpose of eternal punishment will become crystal clear.

 

Remember, it’s all about context. And some of the greatest, longest-lasting, and most divisive debates over differences of doctrine occur because of  lack of understanding of or unwillingness to admit context.
Already exposed your lack of proper context in posts 10, 11 and 12 so going over that again would be... :icon_deadhorse: 

 

Finally, something to strongly consider when thinking about this debate is that there is virtually no difference between the annihilationist position and one that an atheist would take.

 

Ask an atheist what he thinks (hopes) will happen to him when he dies after a lifetime of unbelief and sin. His answer of course is that nothing happens, he just ceases to exist. If you push him further by saying he might have to endure a moment or two of punishment before ceasing to exist he will say, “No problem.” He certainly hasn’t been given any incentive to change his ways, has he?
 

That's mighty convenient for the atheist, but hardly something that God had intended to be taken from His word.

 

But, isn’t that exactly what the annihilationist-believing Christian believes? Basically he and the atheist hold to the same doctrine. I’d certainly want to reconsider if I ever found myself in that position.

 

Red herring (fallacy) since it matters little what an atheist thinks.

 

 

I suggest you read posts 10, 11 and 12 --->VERY CAREFULLY<--- before you post again. That way you might be able to avoid further embarrassment.

 

Remember, the lurkers are out there and they love to read.

 

Max  :acigar: 
 



#15 Dave

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 10:18 AM

Max, we’re obviously at loggerheads, so I suggest we “agree to disagree.”

 

My argument is not with your scholarship. Good scholars for almost two millennia have made convincing arguments for the validity of their interpretation of God’s word. I repeat … these are all good scholars.

 

If I wanted to take the time and trouble I could refer to thousands of words directly from the writings of good scholars through millennia going all the way back to the 2nd and 3rd centuries attesting to my point of view about eternal punishment. And every word can be verified by Scripture.

 

But, that wouldn’t do any good, would it? That’s because you could fill these pages with thousands of words attesting to your point of view, which you also claim to be verified by Scripture.

 

Where’s the difference? Who is right? We are both informed by our pre-conceived ideology, a world view that biases our interpretation of Scripture, sees God's word in a different context … and we are not likely to change that view because of someone’s post on this site.

 

We’ve both said our pieces. In my experience what happens next is someone usually descends deeper into making more and more arrogant, snarky, ad-hominem posts … and then someone gets banned.

 

How about if we call it quits here. You have a chance to bow out gracefully, agree to disagree … and apologizing for your arrogant, snarky, ad-hominem remarks against me would be a nice touch too.

 

Sound like a plan?



#16 Bmaxdlux

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Posted 28 November 2016 - 11:28 AM

Max, we’re obviously at loggerheads, so I suggest we “agree to disagree.”
 

You can't produce any scripture to back up the "doctrine of ceaseless torture"... got it.

 

 

My argument is not with your scholarship. Good scholars for almost two millennia have made convincing arguments for the validity of their interpretation of God’s word. I repeat … these are all good scholars.

 

If I wanted to take the time and trouble I could refer to thousands of words directly from the writings of good scholars through millennia going all the way back to the 2nd and 3rd centuries attesting to my point of view about eternal punishment. And every word can be verified by Scripture.

The results of the punishment are eternal and yes, it's backed up by scripture. To counter all those verses where God plainly states that only the redeemed receive eternal life while others get the death penalty (which is the opposite of life) then all you needed to do was provide a single verse where God specifically grants eternal life to the wicked... a verse which happens to be conspicuously absent from the Bible... explaining why you couldn't do it.  Ok, got that too.

 

 

But, that wouldn’t do any good, would it? That’s because you could fill these pages with thousands of words attesting to your point of view, which you also claim to be verified by Scripture.

Its more than a "claim", I provided plenty of scripture along with well established definitions for support.

 

 

Where’s the difference? Who is right? We are both informed by our pre-conceived ideology, a world view that biases our interpretation of Scripture, sees God's word in a different context … and we are not likely to change that view because of someone’s post on this site.

 

We’ve both said our pieces. In my experience what happens next is someone usually descends deeper into making more and more arrogant, snarky, ad-hominem posts … and then someone gets banned.

 

How about if we call it quits here. You have a chance to bow out gracefully, agree to disagree … and apologizing for your arrogant, snarky, ad-hominem remarks against me would be a nice touch too.

You have confused my well deserved confidence as "arrogance".
You have confused my "pointing out the obvious" as "ad-hominem".
And what you perceive as "snarky" is a just response to your blatant vitriolic attack on my humble request for you and others like you to "kindly get your facts straight" post.


 

 

Sound like a plan?

Well, since you (predictably),

A. Couldn't produce any valid, coherent, scripturally tenable support for your position and

B. that your now desperately looking for an escape route...

 

Then I accept your (poorly concealed) admission of defeat.

 


I wish to point out (yet again) that I don't hate Dave, in fact I do respect him and all those who've chosen to follow the Lamb.
But with that choice comes the all important responsibility of getting to know the Lord for it is impossible to have a meaningful, long term relationship with someone you don't know.

I urge those who have followed this thread up to this point to seriously consider getting to know the Lord.

Happy Holidays and God bless you all.

 

Max B) 

 






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