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#21 what if

what if

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 07:25 AM

I'm coming in late to this conversation, but it is an important one. The issue of genetic information and the capacity of mutations to "write" novel genetic code, should be looked at more closely. There is more to be said.

yes, it does seem that mutations can potentially increase information in the cell.
our nerve/brain network seems to be acquired information.

it could also be that the cell itself is "manufacturing" the needed sequences.

one thing seems certain though, the boundary of body plans (phyla) has not been breached.
this, in itself, is certain proof that mutations aren't "random"

the ability of DNA to repair itself probably swamps out the overwhelming majority of these "random mutations".
the fact that 98% of DNA is "non coding" in combination with the self repair mentioned above probably makes "random mutations" completely irrelevant.

#22 Blitzking

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 08:36 PM

 

I'm coming in late to this conversation, but it is an important one. The issue of genetic information and the capacity of mutations to "write" novel genetic code, should be looked at more closely. There is more to be said.

yes, it does seem that mutations can potentially increase information in the cell.
our nerve/brain network seems to be acquired information.

it could also be that the cell itself is "manufacturing" the needed sequences.

one thing seems certain though, the boundary of body plans (phyla) has not been breached.
this, in itself, is certain proof that mutations aren't "random"

the ability of DNA to repair itself probably swamps out the overwhelming majority of these "random mutations".
the fact that 98% of DNA is "non coding" in combination with the self repair mentioned above probably makes "random mutations" completely irrelevant.

 

 

"the fact that 98% of DNA is "non coding""  

 

UNFORTUNATELY FOR THE "JUNK DNA" MYTH

 

"Non coding" DNA sequences have IMPORTANT biological functions, including the transcriptional and translational regulation

of protein-coding sequences, origins of DNA replication, centromeres, telomeres, scaffold attachment regions (SARs), genes

for functional RNAs, as well as other yet to be discovered functions because man's knowledge is too JUNKY to figure it out yet!...   :cry:

 

 

 

"I believe that one day the Darwinian myth will be ranked the greatest deceit in the history of science. When this happens, many people will pose the question, "How did this ever happen?"

(Dr. Sorren Luthrip, Swedish Embryologist)

 

 

 

evolution-happening-in-lab.jpg


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#23 Gneiss girl

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 07:56 PM

 

I'm coming in late to this conversation, but it is an important one. The issue of genetic information and the capacity of mutations to "write" novel genetic code, should be looked at more closely. There is more to be said.

yes, it does seem that mutations can potentially increase information in the cell.
our nerve/brain network seems to be acquired information.

it could also be that the cell itself is "manufacturing" the needed sequences.

one thing seems certain though, the boundary of body plans (phyla) has not been breached.
this, in itself, is certain proof that mutations aren't "random"

the ability of DNA to repair itself probably swamps out the overwhelming majority of these "random mutations".
the fact that 98% of DNA is "non coding" in combination with the self repair mentioned above probably makes "random mutations" completely irrelevant.

 

 

What if, I agree with most of your comment, but would like for you to explain more on this statement: "yes, it does seem that mutations can potentially increase information in the cell. our nerve/brain network seems to be acquired information."



#24 what if

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 09:23 PM

What if, I agree with most of your comment, but would like for you to explain more on this statement: "yes, it does seem that mutations can potentially increase information in the cell. 

our nerve/brain network seems to be acquired information."
the cell doesn't have nerves or brain.
the question really is, where did these needed sequences come from.
were they always present and switched on by epigenetics, an HGT event, or the result of transposons.
maybe i should have said "could be acquired information" instead of "seems to be acquired information".
the only "acquired" information would be an HGT event, and it certainly couldn't be random because it would require a coordinated effort genetically.

#25 Blitzking

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Posted 24 July 2017 - 11:27 PM

What if, I agree with most of your comment, but would like for you to explain more on this statement: "yes, it does seem that mutations can potentially increase information in the cell. 

our nerve/brain network seems to be acquired information."
the cell doesn't have nerves or brain.
the question really is, where did these needed sequences come from.
were they always present and switched on by epigenetics, an HGT event, or the result of transposons.
maybe i should have said "could be acquired information" instead of "seems to be acquired information".
the only "acquired" information would be an HGT event, and it certainly couldn't be random because it would require a coordinated effort genetically.


"maybe i should have said "could be acquired information" instead of "seems to be acquired information"

Yes indeed, that would have avoided ambivalence and misunderstanding..

English can be very tricky as a second language, but overall you are doing a remarkable job.. You should probabaly start capitalizing the first word in sentences though. Also, the word koonin isnt generally used very often in English, so you may want to try other variants of that word as well... ;)

"After chiding the theologian for his reliance on myth and miracle, science found itself in the unenviable position of having to create mythology of its own: namely, the assumption that what, after long effort, could not be proved to take place today had, in truth, taken place in the primeval past."

(Dr. Loren Eiseley, anthropologist,

#26 Gneiss girl

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 08:19 PM

 

What if, I agree with most of your comment, but would like for you to explain more on this statement: "yes, it does seem that mutations can potentially increase information in the cell. 

our nerve/brain network seems to be acquired information."
the cell doesn't have nerves or brain.
the question really is, where did these needed sequences come from.
were they always present and switched on by epigenetics, an HGT event, or the result of transposons.
maybe i should have said "could be acquired information" instead of "seems to be acquired information".
the only "acquired" information would be an HGT event, and it certainly couldn't be random because it would require a coordinated effort genetically.

 

 

Re: "the only "acquired" information would be an HGT event, and it certainly couldn't be random because it would require a coordinated effort genetically."

 

And what would be your reasoning that an HGT event would lead to a nervous system and brain? Are you suggesting that it is an event (singular)? Or Many coordinated events? Are you favoring a UCA model? What evidence would you cite to support this?



#27 Mike Summers

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 09:30 PM

 

 
Gneiss girl:

I am curious if you have done any thinking as to the differene between information and code?

Code in human communication systems is a variable and does not store information (there are over 5,000 human language code systems).

Information is associated to code in a learning process--usally starting as a child. Information is the same in all humanns. Code has physics, aural,visual or tactile (touch). However, we use diffeent code to access it the same information. As Shakespeare said, "A rose by any other name would smell the same".

For human code systems to work, there has to be someone alive that understands the code to informattion associations of the particular code system (language system name such as French German, Spanish, etc.).

I am wondering if code serves the same function in biological life as in human communication systems? If information is the non-physical as creationists often claim, then there needs to be a mental state (life?) at work in the cell to "read" the code . Meaning is a mental function.


 



#28 what if

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 09:38 PM

And what would be your reasoning that an HGT event would lead to a nervous system and brain?

it's my opinion that genetic sequences are responsible for the construction of nervous networks.
an HGT event can provide these sequences.

Are you suggesting that it is an event (singular)? Or Many coordinated events?

it could be multiple events but i find that unlikely.

Are you favoring a UCA model?

it's logical to assume a UCA, except it appears to have been metabolically diverse.
this suggests multiple abiogenesis events.

What evidence would you cite to support this?

support what?

#29 Gneiss girl

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 09:59 PM

 
Gneiss girl:

I am curious if you have done any thinking as to the differene between information and code?

Code in human communication systems is a variable and does not store information (there are over 5,000 human language code systems).

Information is associated to code in a learning process--usally starting as a child. Information is the same in all humanns. Code has physics, aural,visual or tactile (touch). However, we use diffeent code to access it the same information. As Shakespeare said, "A rose by any other name would smell the same".

For human code systems to work, there has to be someone alive that understands the code to informattion associations of the particular code system (language system name such as French German, Spanish, etc.).

I am wondering if code serves the same function in biological life as in human communication systems? If information is the non-physical as creationists often claim, then there needs to be a mental state (life?) at work in the cell to "read" the code . Meaning is a mental function.


 

Yes, I have thought on this. It is remarkable that information and code, as we innately understand as humans, is so similar to the genetic information in cells. DNA of course, stores the information. Codons are the code. And both human language and DNA must go through a transmission or transcription/translation process. 



#30 Gneiss girl

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Posted 25 July 2017 - 10:14 PM

 

And what would be your reasoning that an HGT event would lead to a nervous system and brain?

it's my opinion that genetic sequences are responsible for the construction of nervous networks.
an HGT event can provide these sequences.

Are you suggesting that it is an event (singular)? Or Many coordinated events?

it could be multiple events but i find that unlikely.

Are you favoring a UCA model?

it's logical to assume a UCA, except it appears to have been metabolically diverse.
this suggests multiple abiogenesis events.

What evidence would you cite to support this?

support what?

 

What evidence would support your thoughts on this? Specifically, since HGT is usually accomplished by something like a virus, how would a virus contain this type of genetic information? (nervous system components) Also, while I can see your point on multiple abiogenesis events, have you considered looking into current research to lend evidence to what amount of evolution is possible? Do you think LUCA's would have been single-celled? 



#31 what if

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 06:02 AM

What evidence would support your thoughts on this? Specifically, since HGT is usually accomplished by something like a virus, how would a virus contain this type of genetic information?

the following explains HGT:
Horizontal gene transfer in eukaryotes The weak-link model.htm

copy/paste the above link into your search engine to bring up the paper.
if for some reason you can't access it, let me know and i'll upload it.
also keep in mind that transposons can mimic the behavior of HGT, where a gene or group of genes can appear in the DNA strand where none was before.

Also, while I can see your point on multiple abiogenesis events, have you considered looking into current research to lend evidence to what amount of evolution is possible?

without macroevolution, what kind of evolution is there?
keep in mind that science has no evidence that phyla descended from one another.

Do you think LUCA's would have been single-celled?

it makes sense to assume such, but it appears phyla arrived here from individual groups of cells
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#32 Mike Summers

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 06:04 AM

Genesis girl

Yes, I have thought on this. It is remarkable that information and code, as we innately understand as humans, is so similar to the genetic information in cells. DNA of course, stores the information. Codons are the code. And both human language and DNA must go through a transmission or transcription/translation process.


In us that translation requires a mental state and conciousness. Think about what you said above as I am speculating that code serves the same function in us as it does in the cell.

Some questions to ask yourself? Why not store informatio as informmatttion. Is informattiom fragile? What are the physics of informmation? While code is visisble information is not.

There are over 5,000 code systems we call human language systems but a rose is a rose (raw information) is the samen all in of them.



#33 Blitzking

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Posted 26 July 2017 - 11:12 AM

What evidence would support your thoughts on this? Specifically, since HGT is usually accomplished by something like a virus, how would a virus contain this type of genetic information?

the following explains HGT:Horizontal gene transfer in eukaryotes The weak-link model.htmcopy/paste the above link into your search engine to bring up the paper.if for some reason you can't access it, let me know and i'll upload it.also keep in mind that transposons can mimic the behavior of HGT, where a gene or group of genes can appear in the DNA strand where none was before.

Also, while I can see your point on multiple abiogenesis events, have you considered looking into current research to lend evidence to what amount of evolution is possible?

without macroevolution, what kind of evolution is there?keep in mind that science has no evidence that phyla descended from one another.

Do you think LUCA's would have been single-celled?

it makes sense to assume such, but it appears phyla arrived here from individual groups of cells


"without macroevolution, what kind of evolution is there?"

BINGO... Give this man a cigar!! You got it sir.. You get it..

#34 Gneiss girl

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 04:35 PM

Genesis girl

Yes, I have thought on this. It is remarkable that information and code, as we innately understand as humans, is so similar to the genetic information in cells. DNA of course, stores the information. Codons are the code. And both human language and DNA must go through a transmission or transcription/translation process.


In us that translation requires a mental state and conciousness. Think about what you said above as I am speculating that code serves the same function in us as it does in the cell.

Some questions to ask yourself? Why not store informatio as informmatttion. Is informattiom fragile? What are the physics of informmation? While code is visisble information is not.

There are over 5,000 code systems we call human language systems but a rose is a rose (raw information) is the samen all in of them.

Sorry Mike. Didn't see your comment until just now. I don't always have time to keep up with this forum. My point regarding code and information is it requires an intelligent source. It doesn't arise naturally. Also, information itself is not physical. Although it may require a physical method with which to store, transmit, and translate it. 






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