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Darwins's Legacy

The effect of survivalof the

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#81 mike the wiz

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 12:45 PM

 

Piasan: BTW, I noted your list of some  68 references claiming Hitler had made statements showing he was an "evolutionist."   The problem is not one of those was a direct comment from Hitler himself.  At best they were "second-hand" or inferences.  On the other hand, the comments showing Hitler used the "almighty" or "Lord" or "God" to justify his actions were direct quotes of Hitler ... mostly from his most famous publication.  I don't know about you, but when I do research, a statement from the primary source (Hitler) is much better than a secondary reference (someone saying Hitler said/meant something).

 

With regard to the responsibility of evolution for the Holocaust.... shouldn't over 1900 years of Christians holding Jews responsible for the death of Jesus get some consideration here?

 

So Piasan would rather protect evolution than Christianity, by helping to bolster codswallop claims that Hitler and other wolves in sheeps clothing, were Christians and Christianity is a better target for Piasan.

 

Hitler's actions contradict Christianity by definition. It is his actions, not his words, which line him up with unbelief and sin and certainly those actions were some sort of simulation of evolution undeniably.

 

Piasan, your credence at EFF as a Christian, is already stretched thin. It is very, very, very difficult to not see you as someone 100% equivalent to an atheist, especially when you would rather muddy the name of Christianity than let evolution take a bad rap.

 

No genuine Christian holds the Jewish as responsible for Christ's death, because such a belief directly contradicts the scriptures, where Christ says He laid down His life of His own volition.

 

You can name as many things as you like that were done in the name of Christianity, but everyone knows that Hitler's actions were the actions of an unbelieving madman. "You shall know them by their fruit."

 

So Piasan - was Jesus wrong?

 

It's one thing when you agree with the evolutionists about evolution, but if you are even willing to muddy the name of Christianity by pretending that people saying they were of Christian belief, qualified them as Christians, then you are basically in line with the atheists even on issues of Christianity V atheism. So then what does that make you? Not hard to figure out the answer to that one.


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#82 driewerf

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 01:41 PM

So Piasan would rather protect evolution than Christianity, by helping to bolster codswallop claims that Hitler and other wolves in sheeps clothing, were Christians and Christianity is a better target for Piasan.
 
Hitler's actions contradict Christianity by definition. It is his actions, not his words, which line him up with unbelief and sin and certainly those actions were some sort of simulation of evolution undeniably.

Mike the Wiz, you are making the same mistake as Mike Summer: You are associating creationism with christianity (and this error has been pointed out at least two times in this thread).

For clarity: creationist =/= christian.

There are muslim creationists (like Harun Yahyah), jewish creationists, pagan creationists etc.

It doesn't matter how far Hitler diverged from christianity, his vision as expressed in Mein Kampf -- his political statement of faith-- is clearly tainted by (a flavour of) creationism. Pointing this out is not attacking christianity. It is acknowledging a clear truth.



#83 driewerf

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 01:45 PM

 

You can name as many things as you like that were done in the name of Christianity, but everyone knows that Hitler's actions were the actions of an unbelieving madman. "You shall know them by their fruit."

 

 

madman? yes. Unbelieving? No:

I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work."

[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

“What we have to fight for…is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.”

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 125]

 

“Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.”

[Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf” Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

 

“A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape.”

[Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf” Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

 

http://www.greatwar....f/meinkampf.pdf

p59

And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord.

 

p182

What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfil the mission assigned to it by the Creator.

 

 

p214

But if for reasons of indolence or cowardice this fight [against syphilis and prostitution]  is not fought to a finish we may imagine what conditions will be like 500 years hence. Little of God's image will be left in human nature, except to mock the Creator.

p238

The act ["race mixing"] which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged.

 

p317

To undermine the existence of human culture by exterminating its founders and custodians [ the Aryans] would be an execrable crime in the eyes of those who believe that the folkidea lies at the basis of human existence. Whoever would dare to raise a profane hand against that highest image of God among His creatures would sin against the bountiful Creator of this marvel and would collaborate in the expulsion from Paradise.

 

p329

Thus for the first time a high inner purpose is accredited to the State. In face of the ridiculous phrase that the State should do no more than act as the guardian of public order and tranquillity, so that everybody can peacefully dupe everybody else, it is given a very high mission indeed to preserve and encourage the highest type of humanity which a beneficent Creator has bestowed on this earth.

p335

Why should it not be possible to induce people to make this sacrifice if, instead of such a precept, they were simply told that they ought to put an end to this truly original sin of racial corruption which is steadily being passed on from one generation to another. And, further, they ought to be brought to realize that it is their bounden duty to give to the Almighty Creator beings such as He himself made to His own image.

p354

The bourgeois mind does not realize that it is a sin against the will of the eternal Creator to allow hundreds of thousands of highly gifted people to remain floundering in the swamp of proletarian misery[...`].



#84 Goku

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 01:56 PM

"You shall know them by their fruit."

 

I have brought this up before, but I see it as a glaring double standard. You and other creationists like to say that certain people are not genuine Christians because their fruit does not align with the teachings of Jesus. If Christians want to say that I think there is a decent argument to be made in that regard, but if you go down that path you can't turn around and say that Hitler was some great evolutionary hero because Hitler's fruit was detrimental to our species' overall fitness.

 

All Mike S. has is a play on the words "survival of the fittest" and pivoting off of that and other common phrases to say Hitler was doing a great thing for evolution by killing others irrespective of what the actual ToE says would be beneficial for a species, or what the phrases he uses actually mean beyond his surface caricature. He all but explicitly admitted that he doesn't care what ToE actually says; he is going to peddle his caricature irrespective of facts because his hatred and hostility towards ToE does not allow him to think rationally on the subject. To use your language it is nothing more than opportunism that misrepresents the actual facts.

 

You and the other Mike can't have your cake and eat it too.



#85 mike the wiz

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 02:37 PM

Goku, the only real thing I myself have said about Hitler is there seems to be a resemblance that can be drawn between natural selection and artificial selection

 

When you say, "detrimental" to our species overall fitness, how is, "overall fitness" defined? It seems to me that Hitler was saying that there were certain individuals who were superior to others in fitness. All this really means is that Hitler was acting as a kind of artificial-selector, he wanted to breed an arian race.

 

The rhetoric he used pertaining to God and Christianity, is so childishly simplistic that in my view only a retarded person could not see through it. For example when Hitler says; 

 

What we have to fight for…is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.

 

What an absolutely an irrelevant statement that is. A child could see that to link the, "creator" to something you state needs to be done, is transparent beyond belief. It is a clear use of God's name to justify a motive.

 

And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord.

 

Again, scripture says there is "no greek or Jew" for we are all one in Christ Jesus. To STATE you believe your conduct is in accordance with God's will, is a statement that anyone could make and only a retard could not see that anyone can say they believe it is the handiwork of God, but if that handiwork directly contradicts the message in the scriptures, then it is transparent, rhetorical codswallop. I could have refuted Hitler right there and then, his rhetoric is so appallingly arbitrary and vague that it is hard to believe even one person would have bought it.

 

 

 

Goku: I have brought this up before, but I see it as a glaring double standard. You and other creationists like to say that certain people are not genuine Christians because their fruit does not align with the teachings of Jesus. If Christians want to say that I think there is a decent argument to be made in that regard, but if you go down that path you can't turn around and say that Hitler was some great evolutionary hero because Hitler's fruit was detrimental to our species' overall fitness

 

But in purely objective terms, isn't that a subjective comment? If someone BELIEVES they are choosing the fit-genes and want to have a super-race and act as natural selection by use of artificially selecting, surely you can see some resemblance to evolution as a philosophy? That the strong must dominate the weak. It is not so much the theory itself and what it says, but what people believe can be justified by buying into evolutionary-philosophy.

 

Those who have studied Hitler's policies and goals have written thus;

http://creation.com/...-race-holocaust

 

 

 

 CMI: the application of Darwinism to society, called eugenics

 

 

CMI: As early as 1925, Hitler outlined his conclusion in Chapter 4 of Mein Kampf that Darwinism was the only basis for a successful Germany and which the title of his most famous work—in English My Struggle—alluded to. As Clark concluded, Adolf Hitler:

‘ …was captivated by evolutionary teaching—probably since the time he was a boy. Evolutionary ideas—quite undisguised—lie at the basis of all that is worst in Mein Kampf —and in his public speeches …. Hitler reasoned … that a higher race would always conquer a lower.’20

And Hickman adds that it is no coincidence that Hitler:

‘ … was a firm believer and preacher of evolution. Whatever the deeper, profound, complexities of his psychosis, it is certain that [the concept of struggle was important because] … his book, Mein Kampf, clearly set forth a number of evolutionary ideas, particularly those emphasizing struggle, survival of the fittest and the extermination of the weak to produce a better society


#86 mike the wiz

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 03:02 PM

Of course I am not arguing that if you ARE an evolutionist that you would agree with evolutionary-moralities. Most people don't get their morality from what evolution says, unless they are perhaps psychopaths or close to it. I believe you (Goku) and the other evolutionists here, believe that evolution is a theory to describe and explain the facts of how life came to be here. I think like you have said, your morality is based on empathy. BUT - the problem isn't those who are not like Hitler, the problem is always one of potentiality. 

 

POTENTIALLY, atheists can murder if they choose to believe it is okay, because to their minds they don't answer to God. (Remember Ray Comfort's video on Lennon? He asked atheists if they could get away with murder for millions of dollars, they would do it.)

 

The real danger Mike is expounding I think, is the dangerous philosophies that can and do come from evolution, and a materialistic worldview which has no foundation or basis for morality and in which the individual is the god that decides that which is right or wrong morally. So then if they choose to believe murder is okay, and call it, "abortion", to them it becomes okay. If they choose to put people in death-camps, who is to say they are, "wrong" if there is no such thing as right and wrong, ultimately? It would be a matter of opinion.

 

True morality comes from conscience and the conscience functions correctly when it is connected to the one Who made it. That is what the manual says. (Bible = Basic instructions before leaving earth). :D


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#87 Mike Summers

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 05:19 PM

Goku said:

I have brought this up before, but I see it as a glaring double standard. You and other creationists like to say that certain people are not genuine Christians because their fruit does not align with the teachings of Jesus.

Duh! Yeah! Do you know the differene between love and hate?

If Christians want to say that I think there is a decent argument to be made in that regard, but if you go down that path you can't turn around and say that Hitler was some great evolutionary hero because Hitler's fruit was detrimental to our species' overall fitness.

Cauton make sure brain is engaged before ptting mouth in gear. Read my lips. You say you don't believe in God or Chrsitianity? Right? What's left but evolution? Are you a materialist or not? Do you believe in free choice? Please clear that up for us!

I didn't say he was an evolutionary hero. I said he was acting on the evolutionary axiom "survival of the fittest"-- eliminationg over 9 million miscerants from the gene pool (so he thought). It's your theory. Sorry you don''t like its implication--you could always repent! lol

You claim Hitler's action was detrimental to the species. Evolution has no feelings. It's blind! You say it's detrimental. That's you talking not evo. Where is the evidence that what he did was detrimental to our species? We have 7 billion people on the earth today. Get real!

All Mike S. has is a play on the words "survival of the fittest" and pivoting off of that and other common phrases to say Hitler was doing a great thing for evolution by killing others irrespective of what the actual ToE says would be beneficial for a species, or what the phrases he uses actually mean beyond his surface caricature.

Like I said you don't believe in your own theory. The reality is Hitler and the Nazis killed lots of folks. That's evo in action, whether you choose to admit it or not!
Now you put words in evo's "mouth". You are its puppeteer--you speak for it! Meanwhile evo marches on disregading your imagnary rules for it.

He all but explicitly admitted that he doesn't care what ToE actually says; he is going to peddle his caricature irrespective of facts because his hatred and hostility towards ToE does not allow him to think rationally on the subject. To use your language it is nothing more than opportunism that misrepresents the actual facts.

The facts is Hitler was a pawn of evo accrding to your rational.

Haven't you fgured out yet that I don't believe in evo? It seems like you don't believe in it either! I don't do hate. I do think ToE is a stupid idea that an intelligent beng called Darwin created1

You and the other Mike can't have your cake and eat it too.

I can do anything I want just like you! And evo can't stop me! :) I am so afraid of what big bad evo will do to me! I am trembling! Maybe it won''t select for me! LOL


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#88 driewerf

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Posted 13 June 2016 - 10:57 PM

 

 

Cauton make sure brain is engaged before ptting mouth in gear. Read my lips. You say you don't believe in God or Chrsitianity? Right? What's left but evolution? Are you a materialist or not? Do you believe in free choice? Please clear that up for us!
 

It doesn't matter what Goku believes. What matters here is what Hitler believed. You made the claim on page 1 that Hitler was inspired by Darwin. Multiple quotes have been presented to you in which Hitler was referring to a creator, an almighty lord or "created in his image". It is very clrear that Hitler was a creationist.

 

It should be useful if you reread the entire thread.



#89 mike the wiz

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 03:25 AM

 

 

Mike Summers: I am so afraid of what big bad evo will do to me! I am trembling! Maybe it won''t select for me! LOL

 

Lol. Nice one Mike. :D appreciate this humour. 

 

Mike I've got some good news for you friend. Jesus Christ is the selector. That means all blind, crippled, and diseased are at the top of his list; "for the first shall be last and the last first".

 

Unlike Hitler, a balrog of hell, those who believe in the Lord and love Him, obey Him. "If you love me,you will obey me" - Christ. (paraphrase)

 

All of the evil doctrines that come from the bowels of hell such as replacement theology, where the catholics pretend the bible is saying that, "holy mother church" is now Israel, to the EVIL anti-semitic doctrine that the Jews are to blame for Christ's death, are just that - evil twistifications of truth. The point of Christ dying on the cross was that He laid down His life for the sins of mankind, so how can the Jews have caused that, when it was God's plan since before, "the foundations of the earth" were laid? The lamb slain since before time, the bible tells us. Christ also predicted His own death. 

 

The STUPIDEST argument, isn't the complaint that milk has been spilt, but it is the complaint about milk that was not even spilt.

 

When they argue the Jews were to blame for Christ's death, one of the premises of that argument is to believe that Christ's death means something temporal, and is a tragedy that can't be undone. In other words, you have to believe the resurrection did not happen, in order to accept that argument, meaning that you don't accept what the bible says to begin with or understand anything about the cross and why it happened, which the NT explains.

 

When Christ was resurrected what did He say in the bible? Did He say this; "now go and get revenge on all Jews and build the Fatherland".

 

Grow a brain atheists! You are DEFENDING Hitler as a Christian. What you are doing is no different to defending him had he stated he was innocent. Think about it - if I said to you, "Hitler was guilty of mass murder" would you provide quotes of all of the things he said which you believe would make him innocent? Would words make him innocent? So then if he claimed to do things for God and Christianity, do his words make him innocent? Right now that is what I see Driewerf doing - he seems to be defending Hitler's claims. Perhaps Driewerf can clarify that for us. Are you saying Hitler was a Christian genuinely, simply because he said things and pretended to have God's interests at heart? If you are, have you noticed that a real Christian (me), can actually SHOW YOU what God has really said in the scriptures so as to show you that Hitler's claims contradicted those scriptures?

 

The argument that the Jews killed Christ, is perhaps one of the silliest arguments in history, it is not even technically, "wrong" because it does not yet qualify as a wrong argument YET. LOL!

 

Think about it, it would be like complaining about milk that has not been spilt. Heck that isn't even a wrong argument it's so false. In order for an argument to be wrong, first it has to qualify at the basic level of "comprehensible". It depends as an argument, on not knowing what the bible has explained. It would be like me making an argument that you can't be an evolutionist because evolution states that brains can't contain any sentience.

 

That would not even yet count as an argument because evolution DOESN'T state that. The "jews killed Christ" argument DEPENDS on a false understanding of the bible.

 

When folk blame the Jews for Christ's death, an equal silliness is to not even KNOW that the bible says that Christ returned and gave His commission on earth. Notice it wasn't to, "go out into all the world and slaughter Jews in revenge". No indeed - His commission was to preach the gospel to the whole world. 

 

 It actually proves Hitler never actually understood the basics of the bible which many atheists do understand, because it appears he didn't even know that Christ spoke about the Kingdom-objective on earth AFTER He was resurrected, and his commission was a peaceful continuation of His work to preach the truth. The NT letters then shows the response to that commission, and it had nothing to do with blaming certain races of people or eliminating the weak.

 

 Hitler's argument has onion-skin layers of ignorance to it, layer after layer, Hitler didn't seem to even understand that the cross was about forgiveness ANYWAY. That is why Christ came, to die on the cross to pay the sin-debt, the second Adam. The NT letters explains this. It is one more farcical thing about the "blame the Jews" arguing - that even had the argument been correct, the gospel preaches forgiveness!!!!!

 

LOL!!!!


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#90 driewerf

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 04:01 AM

Grow a brain atheists! You are DEFENDING Hitler as a Christian. What you are doing is no different to defending him had he stated he was innocent.

Who has been defending Hitler as a christian here?

Goku? No.

Fjuri? No.

Driewerf? No.

 

And who has been defending him as innocent -- which means denying the Holocaust?

Goku? No.

Fjuri? No.

Driewerf? No.

 

Show us names -- show us quotes -- show us evidence.



#91 Mike Summers

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 05:03 AM


Driewerf said:

It doesn't matter what Goku believes. What matters here is what Hitler believed. You made the claim on page 1 that Hitler was inspired by Darwin. Multiple quotes have been presented to you in which Hitler was referring to a creator, an almighty lord or "created in his image". It is very clrear that Hitler was a creationist.

Evo doesn't know or care what Hitler thought. It superscedes him!

Hitler is dead! It's going to be hard to ask him. However, we have a history of what he said and did. He organized the slaughter of 9,000,000 people. You might think you would actually belive in evo's mighty power! "The great and wonderful evo has spoken! Millions of the unfit are dead!" Evo rules! LOL

What the Bible actually says:
"Love your enemies do good to them that curse you". Evo does nt care and so evo was served. Hey its your theory.

What part of, "thou shalt not kill don't you understsand"? Ever heard the statement talk is cheap? "Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not the things I say"!

"They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God."--John 16:2

So, if I said I was a tuba would you believe that too? Don't be so naive. Behavior is always indicative of one's cognitive constructs! Hitler was not a follower of Jesus!
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#92 mike the wiz

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 05:07 AM

Driewerf, if you are claiming Hitler was linked to Christianity because he SAID he was, that is to defend his claims to Christianity. All I am saying is that this is no different to arguing that Hitler is innocent of mass-murder by quoting things he said, in order to justify his actions.

 

Think about it. Imagine if I said, "Hitler was not wrong for what he did because here in his book he said he was doing those things for good reasons, for the, 'greater good' of humanity".

 

If I were to argue that, I would be arguing that Hitler's WORDS prove that his actions were not wrong. 

 

In the same way, if you argue that Hitler was a Christian because he SAID Christian-flavoured things, or associated himself with Christianity and God in some way, then you are saying that his WORDS are more important than his actions.

 

In my opinion it is a dangerous illogic, to say that actions can be justified by words.

 

Hitler's actions were anti-Christian. His actions were that of a mass-murderer. If you claim he was a Christian because of his WORDS, then it is also possible to use the same type of reasoning to say he was innocent because of his WORDS.

 

All I am saying is that it is our actions that truly define us, not our words, which is why Jesus said, "you shall know them by their fruit".

 

I assume you agree that Hitler did things that could be described as, "bad fruit"? A tree is known by it's fruit. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit and a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit. 

 

Are you going to defend Hitler by saying his words made him a Christian? It seems to me you were doing that by quoting Christian-flavoured rhetoric, that he used to try and justify his policies. Con-men always try and use God's authority to justify their evil deeds, it is as a trick as old as time itself. by putting the God-stamp on their methods, simple people are fooled into believing that they are doing those things for God-reasons.



#93 driewerf

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 05:10 AM

Driewerf said:
Evo doesn't know or care what Hitler thought. It superscedes him!

Hitler is dead! It's going to be hard to ask him. However, we have a history of what he said and did. He organized the slaughter of 9,000,000 people. You might think you would actually belive in evo's mighty power! "The great and wonderful evo has spoken! Millions of the unfit are dead!" Evo rules! LOL

What the Bible actually says:
"Love your enemies do good to them that curse you". Evo does nt care and so evo was served. Hey its your theory.

What part of, "thou shalt not kill don't you understsand"? Ever heard the statement talk is cheap? "Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not the things I say"!

"They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God."--John 16:2

So, if I said I was a tuba would you believe that too? Don't be so naive. Behavior is always indicative of one's cognitive constructs! Hitler was not a follower of Jesus!

Again you are trying to obfuscate the question.

You made a claim on page 1 that Hitler was inspired by Darwin, when committing his murders.

You have to provide evidence for that. You have failed to do so until now.

 

All available evidence --as presented to you numerous times -- show he was a creationist.



#94 driewerf

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 05:13 AM

Driewerf, if you are claiming Hitler was linked to Christianity because he SAID he was, that is to defend his claims to Christianity.

 

 

All I am saying is that this is no different to arguing that Hitler is innocent of mass-murder by quoting things he said, in order to justify his actions.

 

You are wrong on both counts.

1) I have never tried to link Hitler to christianity.

2) making that hypothetical link is not equal to arguing his innocence of the mass murders he ordered.



#95 mike the wiz

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 05:15 AM

 

Driewerf: Again you are trying to obfuscate the question.

You made a claim on page 1 that Hitler was inspired by Darwin, when committing his murders.

You have to provide evidence for that. You have failed to do so until now.

 

All available evidence --as presented to you numerous times -- show he was a creationist.

 

The evidence doesn't show Hitler was a creationist, his use of eugenics shows that his ideas were influenced by Darwinism, I shown evidence from the quoted CMI link, showing that his writings were influenced by Darwinism. His policies very much stem from a survival-of-the-fittest, mentality. 

 

I think it is important to judge someone by their actions, not their words. There is no genuine link between Hitler and Christianity, there are only rhetorical statement Hitler used that were anti-Christian when studied properly. 



#96 mike the wiz

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 05:18 AM

 

Driewerf: You are wrong on both counts.

1) I have never tried to link Hitler to christianity.

2) making that hypothetical link is not equal to arguing his innocence of the mass murders he ordered.

 

You made three statements here. (three bare-assertions). You provided no reasonings to back up those assertions but I have provided lengthy explanations of my reasonings.

 

Are you here to only shout at us that we are,. "wrong" and, "incorrect".

 

About what? I mentioned so many things in those posts that it would be impossible to know what I was, "wrong" about unless you give some specific explanation SHOWING an error rather than simply STATING I made one. :rolleyes:



#97 driewerf

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 05:21 AM

Grow a brain atheists! You are DEFENDING Hitler as a Christian. What you are doing is no different to defending him had he stated he was innocent. T

 

Who has been defending Hitler as a christian here?

Goku? No.

Fjuri? No.

Driewerf? No.

 

And who has been defending him as innocent -- which means denying the Holocaust?

Goku? No.

Fjuri? No.

Driewerf? No.

 

Show us names -- show us quotes -- show us evidence.

Remember those two posts, Mike the Wiz?

Who has been linking Hitler to christianity?



#98 mike the wiz

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 05:27 AM

 

 

Driewerf: Who has been linking Hitler to christianity?

 

You quoted many things Hitler said about Christianity and God.

 

You said:

 

 

 

Driewerf: madman? yes. Unbelieving? No:

 

This means you believe Hitler was a Christian-believer, does it not? And you believe that predicated on the quotes you quoted, from Hitler.

 

So you believe he was a Christian based on his words? Do you also believe he was innocent of mass-murder because of his words that it was all for the greater good of humanity?

 

:acigar:



#99 driewerf

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 05:31 AM

The evidence doesn't show Hitler was a creationist,

Really?   :kaffeetrinker: 

I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work."
[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]
“What we have to fight for…is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.”
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 125]

“Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.”
[Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf” Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

“A folkish state must therefore begin by raising marriage from the level of a continuous defilement of the race, and give it the consecration of an institution which is called upon to produce images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape.”
[Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf” Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

http://www.greatwar....f/meinkampf.pdf
p59
And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord.

p182
What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfil the mission assigned to it by the Creator.


p214
But if for reasons of indolence or cowardice this fight [against syphilis and prostitution] is not fought to a finish we may imagine what conditions will be like 500 years hence. Little of God's image will be left in human nature, except to mock the Creator.
p238
The act ["race mixing"] which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged.

p317
To undermine the existence of human culture by exterminating its founders and custodians [ the Aryans] would be an execrable crime in the eyes of those who believe that the folkidea lies at the basis of human existence. Whoever would dare to raise a profane hand against that highest image of God among His creatures would sin against the bountiful Creator of this marvel and would collaborate in the expulsion from Paradise.

p329
Thus for the first time a high inner purpose is accredited to the State. In face of the ridiculous phrase that the State should do no more than act as the guardian of public order and tranquillity, so that everybody can peacefully dupe everybody else, it is given a very high mission indeed to preserve and encourage the highest type of humanity which a beneficent Creator has bestowed on this earth.
p335
Why should it not be possible to induce people to make this sacrifice if, instead of such a precept, they were simply told that they ought to put an end to this truly original sin of racial corruption which is steadily being passed on from one generation to another. And, further, they ought to be brought to realize that it is their bounden duty to give to the Almighty Creator beings such as He himself made to His own image.
p354
The bourgeois mind does not realize that it is a sin against the will of the eternal Creator to allow hundreds of thousands of highly gifted people to remain floundering in the swamp of proletarian misery[...`].

 

his use of eugenics shows that his ideas were influenced by Darwinism,

 

Nope. It shows that he was (partially) influenced by eugenics.

 

 

I shown evidence from the quoted CMI link, showing that his writings were influenced by Darwinism.

 

CMI is an untrustworthy source. It states in it's statement of faith that it will ignore all evidence that contradicts it's preconceived ideas. That makes them unreliable.

 

His policies very much stem from a survival-of-the-fittest, mentality. 

 

 Nope. From racism.
 

I think it is important to judge someone by their actions, not their words.

 

I agree. But his actions are not in dispute here. His source of inspiration to his actions is in dispute.

 

There is no genuine link between Hitler and Christianity, there are only rhetorical statement Hitler used that were anti-Christian when studied properly.

 

How can you properly study his statements -- not his actions, we agree on that -- as anti christian?



#100 Mike Summers

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Posted 14 June 2016 - 05:33 AM


Mike the wiz said:

Mike: I'm sure all Christians have stories of how they were protected from people that wanted to do harm to us.

I remember the testimony of a christian woman in the nazi death camps. She was freed she said, because someone made a blunder with some paperwork. She also said that when she got slapped in the face by a nazi and treated badly, she said, "Jesus help me" when he was about to hit her again, and she said the soldier got very upset by that name, and could no longer touch her for some reason. Almost as if the authority of Jesus's name was enough when she asked for help.

Incredibly she later forgave the nazis that murdered her sister. I know that is what we are supposed to do as Christians but my goodness, that's pretty incredible forgiving power, IMHO.

Forgiveness is the only way to end circular reasonning, awfulizing and creating psychological misery we create for ourself when we think something "shouldn't have happened".
 

I can hear the atheists speaking in my head Mike, I could write down on a piece of paper what they would say; "why didn't God stop her sister from being murdered?"

God loves the both the woman and the perp. He created them and will resurect them later. To him they are simply asleep. In the mean time we learn why love is better than hate. God wants us to learn there are things not to create and hate is one of them!
 

Isn't it amazing how predictable atheist arguments are. They don't understand the sovereignty of God. Christ also let Lazarus die, and it probably wasn't a fun death either. God also let Christ go to the cross. Philosophically, most atheists don't know that they are addressing a wider issue referred to in philosophy as; "The problem of evil", an extension is sometimes; "the problem of evil and suffering".

We suffer because God has built into all of us negative emotions we will feel usualy when we think or do something He does not want us to do. If we love another being then we can't enjoy them if they are dead and no longer exist because we killed them. Once again this reenforces not to create hate.

I have written answers to those problems, many years ago, I shown how evil and suffering can't be treated the same in reference to the Lord God of the bible, than it can to a general theism. With general theism, there is no sufficient logical answer for evil and suffering. If God is just a nameless, benevolent, unknown God, basically there is no reason to believe in him, as he would have allowed suffering for no reason if the world of humanism and secularism is just as valid as the world of theism. But because biblical Christianity rules out humanism/human reason, then the bible does provide answers.

We are largely self punishing beings. My role as a therapist is to give permssion to my cliennts to stop punishing themselves by forgiveness--once thy have learned their lesson!

You might want to rethink your coment on reasoning. God gave us reasoing ability for his purpose. Of course we can misuse it!

It all depends on the different premises for each. With biblical Christianity, even God and Christ themselves predict that suffering and evil will actually continue. We are told that sin brought in thorns in Genesis. We are told that in this world, we will, "have trouble". But with a general theism, there are no biblical premises. A general theism cannot explain why God allows bad things. You have to use human-reason to find answers since such a God has not given any answers. If a general theism was true, the world would be a paradise.

It will continue as long as we keep creating it (or until God intervenes).
 

That is one of the things that makes Christianity first on the list. Christianity can exist despite evil and suffering, but many other religions do not adequately answer for it. Supposedly the world how it is now, under these religions, is the same place God made it. But the bible says that God created a, "very good" world where there was no evil and suffering until mankind sinned.

Which means they abused their creativity just like Satan.

As we know God has no evil to him! He is not a mixtue of good and evil like Satan and us when we eat of Satan's tree!
 

So under false religions, there just isn't an answer. There simply is no reason to entertain those beliefs unless we assume God is dumb and makes a world of disease and suffering.

Right! We act independantlly and thus cause this world. All we need is one maverick and look at all the mahem he can do. I think of how powerul we all are and tremblle! I scare myself! LOL

I tried to tell Goku some of these things a while back.

Yep, I know. Both of us have but, he is so anti-supernaturalisticallly biased his reasoning is blocked. He can't see correct cause and effect assignmet. He claims he believes in evolution as a mindless power and yet can't accept what "it" suposedly does (as with Hitler and his Nazi buddies killing the 9,000,000).
He thnks evo is all powerful and can do all sorts of wonders! But whey I mockingly agree with him he does not want to accept the logical effect of the theory!

Evo is all powerful except when an intelligent being thwarts the mighty "it"(evo). Sounds like he thinks we are smarter and more powerful than evo to me. That's the nature of conflict--tryng to blieve yes and no at the same time! He is sitting on the fence halting between the sovergnty of intelligence and the sovereignty of evo!

I find it amusing to observe him play his mind games! LOL :) I got a chucke out of his double standard comment. I call it the "life should be fair card". "You guys are not fair! You have a double standard"! Congrats, Goku, you figured it out! Yes, from yoour point of view anyone that disagrees with you is not fair! But then evo is not fair so what would he expect? Hilarious. Think he will figure out fair is an intelligent being concept. I thought evo couldn't think or feel. Oh welll he can always personify it and call it a figure of speech or a caracature! LOL






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