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Atheism & Satan


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#1 Mike Summers

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 08:36 AM

Atheism And Satan
 
As a Christian, I believe the essence of God is good--that Satan is the creator of evil--lies and such.  It occurs to me that Atheism never seems to mention the non existence of Satan. It is hard to understan why those that allege Atheism would not also be Asatan.  Why the obsession with a good God not existing but no mention of the father of evil--Satan not existing?



#2 piasan

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 09:27 AM

At the risk of speaking out of turn, I think there are two factors in play:

 

1)  Atheists deny the existence of all supernatural entities.

2)  There are a lot of people preaching and trying to convert others to (their) belief in God.  We've all been approached by many or had some come to our door to persuade us of their specific vision of Him.  Never have I had a satanist try to convert me.  Not once.



#3 Goku

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 09:38 AM

I hear atheists reject the existence of Satan all time with statements like "there is no Heaven or Hell". Personally Satan and Hell, as commonly depicted in our society, was one of the first religious doctrines I rejected because I found it so absurd. You'd think after all this time a literal entity named Satan as described by Christians would have read the ending to the Bible by now.

 

Atheism rejects all Gods. "theism" = "god" and the prefix "a" being the negation of theism/god. At least in my culture Christianity is the dominant religion so most discussions of religion/atheism focus on the Christian God Yahweh. I imagine if the Satanists became the dominant religion atheists would naturally shift their tone to address that specific religion.



#4 eddified

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 11:10 AM

Who is the father of lies? Who is the father of the lie that there is no God? Considering that denying God is something Satan desires very much, it kind of makes sense that Satan has influenced (tempted) many to do just that. However, Satan doesn't have nearly as much incentive to spread the lie that he himself does not exist. .. though there is some of that, too. http://www.theblaze....e-doesnt-exist/

#5 mike the wiz

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:31 PM

While atheists believe God and Satan absurd, their own beliefs about how life and the intelligible and designed laws and forms created themselves, is also absurd, and perhaps more so depending on how you look at it, for nobody would ever believe that the inferior design of a car or helicopter, would create itself, so the superior design in life creating itself is even more absurd, given it is superior.

 

This is the trick - when you think it through WITHOUT God, or considering Who God is, then you are bound to predictably come to the conclusion that natural human reason gives you because God is "in none of their thoughts". What seems absurd to you, or what seems wrong, you conclude is without considering what God has said because you have already dismissed God as one of those absurd things.

 

That is exactly what Satan wants, he said it in Genesis, when he basically in so many words described atheism and said, "think it through for yourself and ignore what God has said, choose to question God's authority, become your own god where you make your morals, your choices, etc." Okay, those weren't the words, but if you read it through Satan was clearly trying to convince them to be atheist.

 

What atheism is as a technicality, matches what it is to be Godless, as described in the bible, by playing God, by doing what Satan said to - deciding for yourself, and ignoring what God says, and basically forgetting God.

 

Whether you believe in Satan or not, you are matching what he said to do in Genesis - by doing what he said to do - which was basically to be your own god, which is what atheism is. "You will be as gods". 

 

If Satan is fiction, why did he effectively give a message of atheism? To ignore God, ignore His authority, not consider Him in your thinking, and think that you are cleverer, and know better, and do things your own way?

 

Effectively Satan did give a message which was Godless, which is a life lived without God, which is what atheism is.

 

To say God is absurd, is a decision of the type of thinking Satan endorsed, and approved of.

 

It is a decision in the thinking, to say, "God is absurd and false", there is nothing objectively absurd about that which exists, if it exists. If you had never known that a squid existed as they had never found one but they were still in the monster movies, you would think a squid an absurd monster from a fictional movie.

 

Ask yourself a question, here it is; "why do I think God is absurd. If I suppose for one moment God exists, then it must be my conception of the absurd which is faulty, rather than God."

 

But atheists can't get past themselves, because they have went so far down the path of being their own puny god, that it's a matter of WILL.

 

By WILL, they refuse to acknowledge God or the possibility. They WILL not think it through differently, not because they don't understand logic or reason but because it is a matter of will. 

 

This is why it all hinged on FREEWILL, in the garden, because the creation of neurotic agreement is only caused by the changing of one's mind, the decision to believe or disbelieve X.


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#6 driewerf

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:46 PM

Atheism And Satan
 
As a Christian, I believe the essence of God is good--that Satan is the creator of evil--lies and such.  It occurs to me that Atheism never seems to mention the non existence of Satan. It is hard to understan why those that allege Atheism would not also be Asatan.  Why the obsession with a good God not existing but no mention of the father of evil--Satan not existing?

Of course we, atheists don't believe in Satan's existence. It is just that the few satanists around are really the fringe, and much lesser vocal than christians.

Satanists 

  • don't try to impose any teaching of creationism in school
  • don't go mad during s@x education lessons
  • don't block stem cell research
  • don't try to defund planned Parenthood
  • don't try to block same s@x marriage or any other equality before the law.
  • Don't try to get Harry Potter books or the Anne Frank diaries removed from school libraries. http://www.csmonitor...of-a-good-thing

they just don't cause much trouble.



#7 Dave

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 08:30 PM

I get what Mike the Wiz is saying. In a nutshell he's saying that although atheists might deny they believe in a satan they, nevertheless, whether they realize it or not, bow to him and willingly do his bidding.

 

A favorite Bible teacher likes to say that all of us have a god-shaped hole in our heart. The only difference is what we choose to fill it with. And "nothing" is not an option. Everyone chooses something. If it isn't the God of the Bible, the author of everything that's good, it's going to be the prince of this world, the one who rules over all that is bad ... in other words Satan, by whatever name one chooses to give him -- humanism, atheism, the many non-Christian cults, and yes, satanism.

 

Personally, I'm one who believes that there is no such thing as an absolute true atheist. I've known many professed atheists ... some who were even aggressively so ... but once I got to know them I would discover that underneath their rebellious shell they would occasionally let slip a faint hint that they know deep down in their subconscious that there is a God.

 

It's like a person who absolutely does not believe in the boogyman, but keeps an eye out looking over his shoulder while walking through a cemetery on a dark night.

 

To the topic, I'd say that atheists do believe in a satan. They might vehemently deny it, but in their deep subconscious they know he is real.



#8 Galileo

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 05:43 AM

At the risk of speaking out of turn, I think there are two factors in play:

 

1)  Atheists deny the existence of all supernatural entities.

I don't deny the existence of supernatural entities, I don't have a belief in them.
Couldn't an atheist that doesn't believe in a God, believe in elves and fairies?

 

To the topic, I'd say that atheists do believe in a satan. They might vehemently deny it, but in their deep subconscious they know he is real.

I don't believe in satan as it under the umbrella of a god to me.
As I probably don't know what is deep in my subconsious, I don't see how you can say that you know what is. I don't know satan is real as no one has provided evidence that it exists.



#9 mike the wiz

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 07:06 AM

 

Driewerf: Of course we, atheists don't believe in Satan's existence. It is just that the few satanists around are really the fringe, and much lesser vocal than christians.

Satanists 

  • don't try to impose any teaching of creationism in school
  • don't go mad during s@x education lessons
  • don't block stem cell research
  • don't try to defund planned Parenthood
  • don't try to block same s@x marriage or any other equality before the law.
  • Don't try to get Harry Potter books or the Anne Frank diaries removed from school libraries. http://www.csmonitor...of-a-good-thing

they just don't cause much trouble.

 

Neither do Christians "cause much trouble". I for one have no idea what you are talking about, I've never done any of those things you've listed there which shows how stupid your argument is. I could make a list too, about what some atheists do, like Ted Bundy.

 

It's the hasty generalisation fallacy you've very clearly commited here, because not all Christians do those things you have mentioned yet you indict us all, and secondly, you have no right to act as the moralising judge anyway, so who is to say your charges against those that do such things, are valid anyway?( begging the question fallacy)

 

An appalling lack of intellectual acuity, IMHO.

 

. By mentioned SOME Christians, you then jump to, "Christians", as though these actions are from, "Christians" generally. I for one, as a Christian, have never tried to teach creationism in schools or vote for it, or block marriages, but even those actions aren't sins or morally wrong anyway, so what is your argument, that because SOME Christians do things you don't like, you fight against the God of Christianity? That is like rejecting Einstein because you dislike his followers/fans.

 

By what measure are these listed things, "wrong" under relative-atheism that teaches the world is an accident? Under such a system, why is what some Christians fight for, "wrong", and why are you "right" for listing these things? Because you listed them? Does that mean they are crimes, because Driewerf, chief-of-morality, listed them? Who says you are right just because you place yourself as the moraliser, and list things?

 

Satanists would approve of murder. (abortion), but instead you complain about Christians that say, "it is wrong to murder a child".

 

So then you think SAYING SOMETHING is worse than killing an unborn child? I am evil if I say, "abortion is wrong", but it's okay for the murderers in white suits, who are atheists, because they aren't on your list, and don't, "cause trouble".

 

If we were under a nazi-regime does this then imply that if we don't fight against the nazis by, "causing trouble", that we are "right" and those that fight against what the nazis do, are, "wrong"?

 

You're going to have to flesh out just what you precisely mean in this post you mean. You are not expressing conclusions, you just tend to be saying things. What precisely is your argument then, against Christianity? Where does your prejudice stem from? I propose it stems from the fact that you know that the Lord God of Christianity, IS God, which you don't like because you don't want to answer to Him.


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#10 Goku

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 10:34 AM

Neither do Christians "cause much trouble". I for one have no idea what you are talking about, I've never done any of those things you've listed there which shows how stupid your argument is. I could make a list too, about what some atheists do, like Ted Bundy.

 

For decades the Christian right in America has advocated the things Driewerf mentioned because of their Christianity, and since the Christian right has a fair amount of political power it is not something that can be ignored.



#11 mike the wiz

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 12:02 PM

 

 

Goku: For decades the Christian right in America has advocated the things Driewerf mentioned because of their Christianity, and since the Christian right has a fair amount of political power it is not something that can be ignored.

 

An appeal to potential consequences. It's the same argument as saying, "let her abort, in case she dies in child birth", but then you can't test whether she would have can you, if she doesn't give birth? Your argument seems to be this; "villify Christians in case the Christians get in." But then they seldom do get in and because of democracy, overt Christian policies have very little chance of getting through. So really your attack isn't about any bad thing that is happening or will happen - your true fight against Christians and Christianity, is because of what we stand for - a belief which is opposite to yours, and says your beliefs are wrong, and that your morality isn't righteous. You don't like the thought that you will have to answer to God, rather than being a god like Satan said, where you don't have to deal with the consequences of those decisions. You want to play god, and then be deemed innocent by God, which is why you will accept any religion except Christianity. :P

 

This is what it is really about because the true effect of a few whacko right-wingers is minimal, and comprises about 0.0000000000000001% of what Christianity is.

 

Nevertheless, Driewerf chose to mention what Satanists, "don't do" as if to imply that because a portion of Christians do those things, some of which may only be professing Christians, that, "Christians" generally are guilty, which is hasty generalisation

 

If Christians are really doing those things, why are they, "wrong" anyway? This seems to imply Satanists stand for good things. Mentioning a portion of what some Christians do, isn't enough to argue that those things listed are necessarily wrong, or evil, nor that Christians generally, act that way and that therefore Satanists are good because they don't do a few particular things Christians do.

 

It's a matter of being wrong on both counts. 1. Naming some things some Christians might do, doesn't prove those things are wrong simply because they are the things Satanists don't do. Nor does it mean Satanists are good people, because they don't do those particular things.

 

Example; "Well, I don't see Nazis doing extremist acts and trying to impose Shariah law."

 

Could we then infer that Nazis are righteous because they don't do what Islam extremists do?  (surely you see this)

 

That's a nice way of simply not mentioning the bad things nazis do. But the chances of Driewerf noticing such mistakes in his writings, are I confess, not very good. He so commonly employs error that like a bad stink in a swamp, if you live in the swamp you can no longer smell it.

 

P.S. I have made many Harry Potter toys. Albus Dumbledore is my favourite character, I have read all of the books, my favourite chapter is called, "The Only One He Ever Feared" in the book called, "The Order Of The Phoenix", but apparently as A Christian, I am guilty of somehow trying to get HP books removed from schools, because, "Christians" do those things according to Driewerf. My stance on G*y marriage which I can provide evidence to prove if you so wish, is that Christians can't enforce a Christian position on to others if they have made a freewill decision to not follow Christianity. That is to say, a Christian doesn't have the right to force someone to behave in a Christian way, which the scripture agrees with, because when the disciples asked Christ to bring down fire from heaven to destroy a town that would not repent and follow Christ, Jesus rebuked them and said; "I have not come to destroy men's lives but to save them."

 

So then, who is a Christian example, the one that carefully listens and studies what Christ taught, or the ones who are well meaning but misguided, and perhaps are simply people with a religious spirit. Don't forget, lots of "right wing" Christians are not Christian at all, so you can't base it on them just because they are the vocal few. The vocal few don't represent the silent many. The many are silent BECAUSE they have views similar to the ones I have expressed in this post. So then, Driewerf gets to say I am guilty-by-association. is that fair?

 

I just don't see the relevance of Driewerf's post. I can understand why you stick together as atheists, but it seems to me he is just venting his animosity towards Christianity and Christians. I am afraid that 99.9999999% of genuine Christians, are mostly people that fly below the radar, like the Satanists. Mentioning a few things that may seem bad to some people, that some Christians have done, is a rhetorical trick, like with the nazi/Islam extremist, example. There are many things for example, Bundy didn't do. He didn't kill children but those people that shoot up schools do. Juxtaposing the two in order to surreptitiously mislead a true comparison, doesn't prove anything. I could list all of the bad things those killers done, which Bundy didn't do but would that make Bundy a good guy?

 

In other words the motive is clear - to villify Christianity. Atheists do this a lot, in a most opportunistic way, by INFLATING these issues, and siding with whomever the opponent of the Christian is. It is mendacious when I hear atheists for example, fight against Islamaphobia. That is insulting to my intelligence, that this is the only thing they seem to mention about Islam, but they will inflate trifles pertaining to SOME Christians, as though Christians are worse.

 

Seldom will I hear an atheist on a forum, villify Islamists.

 

Juxtapose them both and think about it. All of the true harm that comes from Islam, and is genuine harm, and the atheist is silent about it, and instead focuses on contradicting Islamaphobia, but does the atheist treat the Christian the same, by preaching that Christians are largely peaceful and give to charities which is their main focus? No, they think of every politically correct trifle they can think of to focus on and ignore the majority of Christianity and what it is about. They complain that Christians are fighting to stop their rights to enjoy a Godless life, which is what really gets to them, because there is nothing worse to an atheist than people speaking against a Godless life, where you get to play god like Satan said you would.

 

Think about it - Christians don't get their bills passed, marriages aren't stopped, creation isn't in schools, h*m*sexuals aren't hanged by the neck, yet you complain about Christians anyway

 

WHY? if there is no real harm and those few vocal Christians largely don't succeed - then the true harm must be to your inner man. It is the fact that Christians SAY you are wrong, which you don't like. It's that our attack on a worldly society, is an attack on your way of life. It is an attack on your beliefs - we are saying your beliefs are wrong, and this is almost criminal to self-righteous people. Kill an atheist and the atheist will remain silent, rape an atheist if you want it seems.... but whatever you do, don't dare say their beliefs about the world and evolution are wrong!!!, because that attacks what they are all about! See - your desires are more important to you than true harm. (Islam terrorists killing you.) You would likely rather live with those terrorists than live with Christians because Christians are the ones that get your conscience fighting against your desires.

 

And that is what it is all about - it is a spiritual war, between Satan's way, which you endorse and live by, or God's way, and even when the Christians are three versus 45 million voting against the Christian, still you will focus on what the three say, because the issue is all to do with belief in God versus unbelief in God, and it is clear to you as atheists, that only the Lord God can be God, for He is the one attacking the true source of what is behind atheism. Therefore the Lord God must go! Forget the real harm, forget any real wrong-doing, and at all costs, attack Christianity, and especially the version that says God created the world, as that then puts atheism right out of the frame.

 

(you'll argue but you know a lot of what I am saying is true. I may not be totally correct about all the details and nuances of grey, but you know I have the gist of it.)

 

(Disclaimer, while I say "you" etc..in this post, as you are an example of an atheist, nevertheless I am not attacking the Goku person, personally. Please realise in what context I am making my case. I actually do like you Goku, and think that you are thoughtful, and believe it or not, I don't hold all that much against atheists. I don't dislike atheists even, to be honest. I just know the Lord in my life.)


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#12 Mike Summers

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 08:49 PM

There is an illusion of fusion. One of the things that I try constantly try to remind myself of is that I and other beings are individuals. Because of corruption in our idividual philosophies of life, we use imprecise idioms and concepts. The resultant imprecision in our thinking leads us to draw erroneous conclusions--not warranted by more precise reasoning (scientific reasoning).

Think about the term group. When we refer to a "group" of Christians, what is the locus of control of the group? Does a group have a central brain? Are we in reality individuals or can we be controlled by some etherial mass brain--hence my comment about the illusion of fusion. How does that work?

Mentally, I do not believe I can "belong" to a group. While there is a certain amount of facility in these generalized terms, they ccntribute a great deal to deception. I think their contribution to deception by far outweighs any advantages they provide. In the end we form a neurotic agreement qith others that there is indeed a mass brain that controls the group. I don't think so. No, we are cooperating with the beast.

Thus, we conclude we can hold "the government" resposible as if it were an entity (a decision-making being). I do not blame "the government" for anything because for the most part "it" (government) functions as a neurotic agreement. I realize there is human being making decisions--not some illusion called "the government." Gettinmg to the person making the decisions is where the real challen ge lies.

Humans are individuals. Therefore, we are individually responsible for our mental health and interactions with other beings. The Bible expressly forbids us to "give our power to the beast." But what does it mean by that statement? It means not to cooperate and do nefarious things that a leader (an individual) of a "group" would have us do mindlessly. Why? Because God holds us (as we ought to hold ourselves) individually ressponsible for what we do. And as the scripture infers, we are our brother's keeper.

 

I can not speak for a group because I am an idividual.


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#13 Mike Summers

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 01:49 AM

Claiming we are not religious is itself a deception. Everyone of us has a "religion"--a philosophy of life that we use to guide us in interacting with the experience we call life. Our personal philosphy (religion by another name) is eclectic and is mediated by our own self generated bias.

So, it would be helpful if, instead of blamng religion, we comment on specific beliefs (rules) we disagree with instead of being so general--less we throw the baby out witht the bath water. Blaming religion is not only too general it personfys a conmcept which is useless. All of us choose from a philosophic repitoire (religion by another name) which "belief" to use in responding to a specific stimuli.

For example, think for a moment about a couple of the Ten Comandments--Thou shall not kll, or Thou shall not steal. Are we to throw these rules out because they are part of religion and "Christian?"



#14 what if

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 04:48 AM

In other words the motive is clear - to villify Christianity
 
Seldom will I hear an atheist on a forum, villify Islamists.
 
Juxtapose them both and think about it.

you sure know how to sneak some powerhouse concepts into your posts.

and evolution isn't the only thing these people are involved with.
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#15 Fjuri

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 09:49 AM

Who is the father of lies? Who is the father of the lie that there is no God? Considering that denying God is something Satan desires very much, it kind of makes sense that Satan has influenced (tempted) many to do just that. However, Satan doesn't have nearly as much incentive to spread the lie that he himself does not exist. .. though there is some of that, too. http://www.theblaze....e-doesnt-exist/

According to the bible, Satan was the truthful one. [link:lol:

Your God is simply more powerful, according to himself.

 

Just so you know..

 

I'm curious, granting an Almighty God, do you think the Almighty God would be able lie?

Do you think the Almighty God would be able to lie about him being able to lie?



#16 Mike Summers

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 11:02 AM

Goku et al.
I would like to know what you mean when you talk of political power?- What is it?
Who or what do you think conrols us and "makes" us do anything?

Most of us tell ourselves what to do by communicatiung within ourselves using inaudible declarative sentences. Here is an example of something I mexxcept ight tell myself: " I am nearly out of food to eat and cook. So, I need to go to the store. And while I am out I need to get some medicine at the pharmacy." Since the process is TEB (think, emote, behave) I will then "do" (behave) whar I tell myself (mediated allways by free choice). I can change my choices.

Here is a belief from my philosophical repitoire--my personalized philosophy of life--you might say my religion: "Thou shalt not "should"! I do not mean that every utterance of the word should indicates a demanding commanding point of view. "Should" can mean a conditional. It can mean a preferance. It bad thing when we believe it is firm and denies reality.

Here is my belief on what reality is. :"Reality is the result of all the causes that have proceeded the current effect." So, if I see something that has happened, I remind myself that once something happens it slips irretrievably into the past and since time travel is not possible, I cannot do anything about it except accept that it happened. Perhaps I can ameliorate someof its effects. But, it's something that already happened. If I believe devoutly it should not have happened, I will trigger the emotion of anger in my mind. Since I do not like feeling angry all I have to do is accept reality that this event happened. Poof! There goes my anger. Besides one of the 10 Commandments says not to lie. If I don't lie to myself about this event by falsely claiming it shouldn't have happened I will not feel anger. Anger is always triggered by lying to myself.

Moreoverm, even though it may be from my point of view an unfortunate event, it is not a horror (awful exageration). It is at worst an inconvenience and no amount of inconvenience amounts to a horror. Once again since it has already happened and time travel is not available to use, I can do nothing about what happened in the past. I can, however, accept reality. I have figured out that forgiveness is accepting reality. By accepting reality (forgiving) I avoid putting my mind in a loop which will trigger the unpleasant emotions of anger and frustration in my mind. "It shouldn't happened but it did. It shouldn't have happeneed but it did... Etc." The above is is a conversation I have with myself. Thus it seems to me, I control myself with my thinking--not some external imaginary power called politics.

I have five senses (some think there are more). All code (sometimes confused as information) comes into my mind through those five senses. From what I understand my mind processes that code into informatio giving it meaning. Therefore, the meaning is given by me and and is not contained in the event. There is no emotion causing component to something external from my (our) mind.

The above scenario is in reference to the forbidden fruit incident in the garden of Eden to which I often refer. It wasn't being naked that triggered Adam and Eve's embarrassment, it was a change in the way they thought about nakedness. There is no emotion causing component to any event. We decide in the privacy of our mind what emotion to trigger for any circumstance (TEB). As far as I know we as autonomous individuals control ourselves. How we get the impression that somebody else can control us I have no idea. Perhaps you can enlighten me how that works?

I think it is a neurotic agreement that any one controls anyone else. Who dressed you this morning? lol



#17 popoi

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 11:39 AM

Think about it - Christians don't get their bills passed, marriages aren't stopped, creation isn't in schools, h*m*sexuals aren't hanged by the neck, yet you complain about Christians anyway.

Anymore. The people who wanted to do those things didn't stop because they changed their mind or became politically irrelevant and weren't able do them anymore, they stopped (to the extent that they actually stopped) because they were opposed. The people who want G*y marriages stopped and creation in schools and G*y children electrocuted until they're straight haven't gone away, and given the chance they'd gladly go right back to doing those things, which is why it remains important to oppose them.

#18 eddified

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 12:49 PM

I'm curious, granting an Almighty God, do you think the Almighty God would be able lie?
Do you think the Almighty God would be able to lie about him being able to lie?


He certainly is *able* to lie. However, He simply *chooses* to never lie. Is there any virtue to being Good if being Bad isn't an option? God is Good partly because He has the ability to do Bad -- in other words, Him doing bad is one of His options. If doing bad weren't an option, then how would God really be Good?

Here is a simple analogy. Let's say a human was placed on the summit of a mountain. This human is an adult in full health. This human has the ability to climb down the mountain, or to otherwise move around. Would it not be remarkable if the human managed to stay on the summit for weeks and/or months on end? The human would feel cold. The human would get bored. The human would be in misery, if placed in one single spot or not allowed to ever move. Yet if the human stayed there for weeks or months on end, *of their own accord*, wouldn't that be remarkable to some degree? Most people don't have the resolve to do something like that. A normal person would give up, go home, etc, in order to live in comfort.

Contrast this hypothetical remarkable human to a rock. If a rock stays on top of the mountain for weeks or months, it is not remarkable because the rock does not have the ability to do otherwise. Same goes for an imprisoned human. If an imprisoned human were on the top of a mountain, it would be remarkable, but not in the same way, because this human did not have the option to come down off the mountain or otherwise avoid their misery.

However, IMO the moment God chose to lie or do Bad, He wouldn't be God anymore. He always chooses good on His own accord... always.
  • Mike Summers likes this

#19 Mike Summers

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 12:51 PM

Fjuri said as:

 

Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:49 AM
eddified, on 21 Mar 2017 - 1:10 PM, said:

Who is the father of lies? Who is the father of the lie that there is no God? Considering that denying God is something Satan desires very much, it kind of makes sense that Satan has influenced (tempted) many to do just that. However, Satan doesn't have nearly as much incentive to spread the lie that he himself does not exist. .. though there is some of that, too. http://www.theblaze....e-doesnt-exist/
According to the bible, Satan was the truthful one. [link] 
Your God is simply more powerful, according to himself.
 
Just so you know..
 
I'm curious, granting an Almighty God, do you think the Almighty God would be able lie?
Do you think the Almighty God would be able to lie about him being able to lie?

According to our belief you are made in his image. Do you make a point of lieing to yourself?

 

Definition of  the word lie: Something     should ought is or must be different than what it actually is.  I thought you gave up that loop? Ah the tyranny of the should! (lies by another name).

Remember cause always precedes an effect. So do we expect to pick  carrots from a tomatoes vine? Do we expect to pick ears of corn from an apple tree? "Be not deceived God is not mocked.  For whatsoever a man swath that shall he also reap."



#20 Goku

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 08:52 PM

An appeal to potential consequences. It's the same argument as saying, "let her abort, in case she dies in child birth", but then you can't test whether she would have can you, if she doesn't give birth? Your argument seems to be this; "villify Christians in case the Christians get in." But then they seldom do get in and because of democracy, overt Christian policies have very little chance of getting through. So really your attack isn't about any bad thing that is happening or will happen - your true fight against Christians and Christianity, is because of what we stand for - a belief which is opposite to yours, and says your beliefs are wrong, and that your morality isn't righteous. You don't like the thought that you will have to answer to God, rather than being a god like Satan said, where you don't have to deal with the consequences of those decisions. You want to play god, and then be deemed innocent by God, which is why you will accept any religion except Christianity. :P

 

This is what it is really about because the true effect of a few whacko right-wingers is minimal, and comprises about 0.0000000000000001% of what Christianity is.

 

Let's look at the things Driewerf mentioned:

 

1) Teaching creationism in school: Creationists have, often successfully, forced creationism into schools. In America much of what is taught and how it is taught comes down to the local school board in that particular town. Also the local culture and parents can have an impact too. The result is that many school districts across the country have creationist tendencies.

 

2) s@x education: For decades Christians have advocated abstinence only education, and entire states have adopted this view because the Christian right is politically powerful. God forbid teenagers in all their hormones learn what a c*ndom is. Ideology aside, studies show that abstinence only education is either not effective or detrimental, depending on which metric you want to look at.

 

3) Block stem cell research: Christians have successfully blocked stem cell research before. When I first got interested in politics, during the George W. Bush era, stem cells were a main topic of political discussion. Virtually all of the opposition to stem cell research came from Christians on the grounds that it was their religious belief that a clump of frozen cells in a lab was a "human" and thus it was "murder" to do research on them. For anyone who doesn't know, all of the unused stem cells in the lab get thrown away - in many cases it's either use the stem cells for research or literally dump them in the trash. Long story short the federal government refused to give any money to stem cell research, and many of the states refused to fund stem cell research.

 

4) Defund Planned Parenthood: Defunding Planned Parenthood has always been part of the GOP platform, at least since I started paying attention. For anyone who doesn't know the main reason for this is because Planned Parenthood offers abortion services, but by law no government funds given to Planned Parenthood may be used for abortion services. Many states have defunded Planned Parenthood over the years, although I am unaware of any federal defunding. But the issue is more than just money, Planned Parenthood is the target of various Christian extremists who violently attack the organization through bombs and gun shootings.

 

5) Blocking G*y marriage: Just to get a little perspective, when America was first formed it was more or less the law that G*y people were hanged. Thomas Jefferson, one of our founding fathers and 3rd President, proposed to his state the lenient sentence of castration rather than death for G*y people, but his proposal never went anywhere. The point is that it has been an uphill battle for G*y equality since the very beginning of the country. Christians have done everything in their power to keep G*y people from benefiting from the full legal rights and protections afforded to straight marriage. In America you have both federal and state laws dealing with marriage, and while the federal government in 2013 said that it will not discriminate against G*y couples, it wasn't until 2015 when the federal government said that the states had to recognize G*y marriage as well. When the law came down many Christians refused to follow the law, with the most famous incident being Kim Davis, a county clerk whose job was to hand out marriage licenses but refused to hand out the licenses to G*y people citing her religious beliefs.

 

6) Harry Potter and Anne Frank censorship: As I said before the local school board has a lot of power over their local schools, and many of them have banned or censored those books. Harry Potter is perhaps the most banned book in American schools. Just as an anecdote, I grew up during the height of the Harry Potter craze, and I knew people (conservative Christians) that believed Harry Potter used real spells and witchcraft. My response was to attempt to levitate nearby objects with the Harry Potter levitating spell to show them how silly their belief was. I was never able to get objects to levitate, and those Christians usually went silent after my 'demonstration' of the satanic powers of Harry Potter.

 

 

 

All of that to say that the things Driewerf mentioned are things that have actually happened due to the Christian right.

 

 

Nevertheless, Driewerf chose to mention what Satanists, "don't do" as if to imply that because a portion of Christians do those things, some of which may only be professing Christians, that, "Christians" generally are guilty, which is hasty generalisation.

 

The point Driewerf is making is that it is almost exclusively the Christians that are trying to get the government to support, either implicitly or explicitly, their religious ideology. You simply don't see this with other religions, so it's no surprise that atheists often focus on Christianity rather than some other religion.

 

If some other religion had the political power the Christian right has then atheists would speak out against them too.

 

If Christians are really doing those things, why are they, "wrong" anyway? This seems to imply Satanists stand for good things. Mentioning a portion of what some Christians do, isn't enough to argue that those things listed are necessarily wrong, or evil, nor that Christians generally, act that way and that therefore Satanists are good because they don't do a few particular things Christians do.

 

It's a matter of being wrong on both counts. 1. Naming some things some Christians might do, doesn't prove those things are wrong simply because they are the things Satanists don't do. Nor does it mean Satanists are good people, because they don't do those particular things.

 

Example; "Well, I don't see Nazis doing extremist acts and trying to impose Shariah law."

 

Could we then infer that Nazis are righteous because they don't do what Islam extremists do?  (surely you see this)

 

That's a nice way of simply not mentioning the bad things nazis do. But the chances of Driewerf noticing such mistakes in his writings, are I confess, not very good. He so commonly employs error that like a bad stink in a swamp, if you live in the swamp you can no longer smell it.

 

I think you are reading way too much into a simple statement from Driewerf.

 

One way to rewrite what Driewef said would be something like this: However evil the Satanists are, it is the Christians that are trying to change our laws and force their ideology on others.

 

P.S. I have made many Harry Potter toys. Albus Dumbledore is my favourite character, I have read all of the books, my favourite chapter is called, "The Only One He Ever Feared" in the book called, "The Order Of The Phoenix", but apparently as A Christian, I am guilty of somehow trying to get HP books removed from schools, because, "Christians" do those things according to Driewerf. My stance on G*y marriage which I can provide evidence to prove if you so wish, is that Christians can't enforce a Christian position on to others if they have made a freewill decision to not follow Christianity. That is to say, a Christian doesn't have the right to force someone to behave in a Christian way, which the scripture agrees with, because when the disciples asked Christ to bring down fire from heaven to destroy a town that would not repent and follow Christ, Jesus rebuked them and said; "I have not come to destroy men's lives but to save them."

 

So then, who is a Christian example, the one that carefully listens and studies what Christ taught, or the ones who are well meaning but misguided, and perhaps are simply people with a religious spirit. Don't forget, lots of "right wing" Christians are not Christian at all, so you can't base it on them just because they are the vocal few. The vocal few don't represent the silent many. The many are silent BECAUSE they have views similar to the ones I have expressed in this post. So then, Driewerf gets to say I am guilty-by-association. is that fair?

 

I just don't see the relevance of Driewerf's post. I can understand why you stick together as atheists, but it seems to me he is just venting his animosity towards Christianity and Christians. I am afraid that 99.9999999% of genuine Christians, are mostly people that fly below the radar, like the Satanists. Mentioning a few things that may seem bad to some people, that some Christians have done, is a rhetorical trick, like with the nazi/Islam extremist, example. There are many things for example, Bundy didn't do. He didn't kill children but those people that shoot up schools do. Juxtaposing the two in order to surreptitiously mislead a true comparison, doesn't prove anything. I could list all of the bad things those killers done, which Bundy didn't do but would that make Bundy a good guy?

 

In other words the motive is clear - to villify Christianity. Atheists do this a lot, in a most opportunistic way, by INFLATING these issues, and siding with whomever the opponent of the Christian is. It is mendacious when I hear atheists for example, fight against Islamaphobia. That is insulting to my intelligence, that this is the only thing they seem to mention about Islam, but they will inflate trifles pertaining to SOME Christians, as though Christians are worse.

 

..........

 

Think about it - Christians don't get their bills passed, marriages aren't stopped, creation isn't in schools, h*m*sexuals aren't hanged by the neck, yet you complain about Christians anyway

 

WHY? if there is no real harm and those few vocal Christians largely don't succeed - then the true harm must be to your inner man. It is the fact that Christians SAY you are wrong, which you don't like. It's that our attack on a worldly society, is an attack on your way of life. It is an attack on your beliefs - we are saying your beliefs are wrong, and this is almost criminal to self-righteous people. Kill an atheist and the atheist will remain silent, rape an atheist if you want it seems.... but whatever you do, don't dare say their beliefs about the world and evolution are wrong!!!, because that attacks what they are all about! See - your desires are more important to you than true harm. (Islam terrorists killing you.) You would likely rather live with those terrorists than live with Christians because Christians are the ones that get your conscience fighting against your desires.

 

You may not do or advocate the things Drieweft mentioned, but enough Christians do those things to have a real impact. Ditto to everything Popoi said.

 

In Uganda (I think it's Uganda) some American missionaries went there to preach Jesus and such. And one thing the Americans did was to push for the death penalty against G*y people - I guess they take Leviticus 20:13 quite seriously. Luckily the bill never passed, but the country has seen a sharp rise in G*y hate crimes thanks to the Christian missionaries.

 

As for atheists and Islam, you need to listen to atheist Sam Harris. A lot of his stuff seems to center around how evil Islam is and that the liberals/left are ignoring the threat of Islam under the dangerous ideology of tolerance. I don't agree with everything he says on the topic, but I think he makes some really great points. Not every religion is equally bad.

 

Seldom will I hear an atheist on a forum, villify Islamists.

 

Maybe because this is a Christian forum, and there have been virtually no regular members that are Muslim?

 

In the United States about 70% are Christian, and about 1% are Muslim. Which group do you think has more influence on the day-to-day level?

 

I know London is mourning the Muslim attack right now, and my condolences for the lives lost and ruined.

 

I don't know what the statistics are in other countries, but in America the FBI came out with a report that only 6% of all terrorist attacks in America were carried out by Muslims (source). The link also links to another report that did a similar study on terror attacks in Europe. The result is that less than 1% of terror attacks in Europe are from Muslims.

 

While the press seems to focus on the Muslim threat, statistically, you are much more likely to be killed by some other terrorist plot than a Muslim terrorist plot if you live in America or Europe. That is not to detract from the closest thing to evil incarnate my life has seen, but if you live in America or Europe chances are your day to day experience is influenced more by Christians than by Muslims.

 

Juxtapose them both and think about it. All of the true harm that comes from Islam, and is genuine harm, and the atheist is silent about it, and instead focuses on contradicting Islamaphobia, but does the atheist treat the Christian the same, by preaching that Christians are largely peaceful and give to charities which is their main focus? No, they think of every politically correct trifle they can think of to focus on and ignore the majority of Christianity and what it is about. They complain that Christians are fighting to stop their rights to enjoy a Godless life, which is what really gets to them, because there is nothing worse to an atheist than people speaking against a Godless life, where you get to play god like Satan said you would.

 

And that is what it is all about - it is a spiritual war, between Satan's way, which you endorse and live by, or God's way, and even when the Christians are three versus 45 million voting against the Christian, still you will focus on what the three say, because the issue is all to do with belief in God versus unbelief in God, and it is clear to you as atheists, that only the Lord God can be God, for He is the one attacking the true source of what is behind atheism. Therefore the Lord God must go! Forget the real harm, forget any real wrong-doing, and at all costs, attack Christianity, and especially the version that says God created the world, as that then puts atheism right out of the frame.

 

(you'll argue but you know a lot of what I am saying is true. I may not be totally correct about all the details and nuances of grey, but you know I have the gist of it.)

 

(Disclaimer, while I say "you" etc..in this post, as you are an example of an atheist, nevertheless I am not attacking the Goku person, personally. Please realise in what context I am making my case. I actually do like you Goku, and think that you are thoughtful, and believe it or not, I don't hold all that much against atheists. I don't dislike atheists even, to be honest. I just know the Lord in my life.)

 

I agree people are too worried about offending Muslims and crying Islamaphobia when there is none. I also understand why this is the case. You don't want to alienate the Muslims that are here and push them into hating the West or even to pick up arms against the West. You also don't want to encourage vigilante violence against Muslims. It's also important to know that ISIS has killed more Muslims than any other religious group. If you are in a city controlled by ISIS, and you are a Muslim but refuse to convert to ISIS brand of Islam, they behead you.

 

Atheists do speak out against Islam, but because most of the people in our culture are Christian, and Christians have much more political power than any other religious group, and most atheists are from Christian backgrounds, it is no surprise that Christianity is often the focus of atheism.

 

Richard Dawkins once said that "Islam is one of the great evils in the world."






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