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#21 Mike Summers

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 01:00 AM

Christ and his disciples interacted amongst themselves. Jesus did not run for political office nor did he tell his followers to do so.

Those who Goku calls the Christian right do not display the fruit of the spirit Jesus said those that follow him would display. "By this shall all men know you are my discip;;es by the love you have for one another. If my kikngdom were of this world then would my servants fight." He also said, Many would come in my name saying I am the Christ (Jesus was the Christ) and deceive many." In order to know whether someone is practicing Christianity we need to read the bible and compare what Jesus said and did He also said "You will know them by their fruit."

Jesus taught self rule. He did not tell his disciples to try and force their beliefs down another's throat. "And why do you behold will splinter in your brothers eye and consider not the beam in your own?"

One of the most famous statements he said wasm "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Jesus was logical and precise. He invited those that had ears to hear to follow him. He did not run for political office. Nor did he tell his disciples to do so.

The Bible paints a different picture than Goku paints of the true followers of Jeus Christ.

Based on biblical teaching I have conceptualized four levels of control people
attempt with each other. Christians for the most part of the stay on level and two.

I don't think it is fair to condemn an ideology because people are not correctly practicing it. "Vengeance is mine sayeth the lord I will repay." Here goes:

I constructed the following hierarchy of attempted control over others. I say attempted control
because all of us can actually only control ourselves (and even that is done imperefectly). The attmepts are as follows:

1. Someone asks you to do something. You choose to comply or choose not comply.
2. Someone asks you to do something. They choose to pay you or you reason with each other. They or you may even write a contract on paper. You choose to comply or not to comply.
3. Sommmeone demands that you do something. They renforce their demand with anger--perhaps raising their voice and/ or yelling etc. You choose to comply or not comply.
4. Someone demands you do what they tell you and threaten you with violence if you hesitate to meet their demands. They may choose to physically asault you to encourage doing what is demanded. This level is the stuff of war and terroism. Some may even threaten to kill a loved one if their demands are not met. The ultimate attempt at control is killing the being or beings who won't respond the way demand.
level three and four is the level of the control freaks and terrorists! Civil people stay on levels one and two.


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#22 Goku

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 08:37 AM

Christ and his disciples interacted amongst themselves. Jesus did not run for political office nor did he tell his followers to do so.

 

Jesus never told his followers to be doctors or engineers either. What's your point?

 

Those who Goku calls the Christian right do not display the fruit of the spirit Jesus said those that follow him would display. "By this shall all men know you are my discip;;es by the love you have for one another. If my kikngdom were of this world then would my servants fight." He also said, Many would come in my name saying I am the Christ (Jesus was the Christ) and deceive many." In order to know whether someone is practicing Christianity we need to read the bible and compare what Jesus said and did He also said "You will know them by their fruit."

Jesus taught self rule. He did not tell his disciples to try and force their beliefs down another's throat. "And why do you behold will splinter in your brothers eye and consider not the beam in your own?"

One of the most famous statements he said wasm "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Jesus was logical and precise. He invited those that had ears to hear to follow him. He did not run for political office. Nor did he tell his disciples to do so.

The Bible paints a different picture than Goku paints of the true followers of Jeus Christ.

 

I call them Christians because that is how they identify themselves as. As far as I can tell these people genuinely believe that the Bible is real and that they are following Jesus. What else would you call someone that says to ban G*y marriage because of the Bible and that Christian creationism should be taught in school? Whether or not they are "true" Christians is besides the point. Doesn't C.S. Lewis say something to the effect of if someone claims to be a Christian accept it; they may be a good or bad Christian, but if they claim Christianity then it now falls between them and God alone?

 

We can call it "Christendom" if you want, to distinguish between the worldly culture that claims the title of Christianity, and use Christian to mean "true" Christians. Either way I'm sure your intelligence will allow you to correctly insert the proper meaning into my previous post.

 

Just a point about "true" Christians. If doing the things on Driewerf's list is antithetical to Christianity and if you did those things then you are not a "true" Christian, then who exactly can claim the label of Christianity? It honestly feels that the "true" Christian is almost a kind of mythical creature that doesn't exist in the real world.

 

Can any Christian on this forum say that they do not support the teaching of creationism in public schools?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they support comprehensive s@x education in public schools?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they support stem cell research?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they do not advocate to defund Planned Parenthood?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they support same s@x marriage in the eyes of the law?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they do not advocate to ban Harry Potter or the Anne Frank diaries?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they have answered "yes" to all of the above?

 

I doubt anyone here can pass this "true" Christian test. Should I start calling everyone on EFF fake Christians?



#23 Dave

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 09:05 AM

Can any Christian on this forum say that they do not support the teaching of creationism in public schools?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they support comprehensive s@x education in public schools?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they support stem cell research?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they do not advocate to defund Planned Parenthood?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they support same s@x marriage in the eyes of the law?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they do not advocate to ban Harry Potter or the Anne Frank diaries?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they have answered "yes" to all of the above?

 

I doubt anyone here can pass this "true" Christian test. Should I start calling everyone on EFF fake Christians?

 

Just speaking for myself ...

 

The world would be a better place if Christians were indeed able to accomplish all those things ... with the exception of banning Harry Potter or Anne Frank. Not sure where that came from. Other than from whackjobs I've never heard of any significant effort to attempt that.

 

Here's the thing. Since the Bible and any mention of God were banned from the public school system in 1962 every single negative cultural and social indicator has shown the beginning of the downward spiral from that time period.

 

Can anyone honestly say that we are all better off for having Christianity replaced by secular humanism or downright atheism in our schools and government? 'Course the answer depends, as it always does, on a person's worldview.

 

I remember being in public school in England where Bible reading was a regular part of our daily routine. And, even back in the United States for the first few years we had a daily prayer read over the intercom every morning. That ended of course, and the world is a better place ... right?



#24 mike the wiz

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 11:49 AM

 

 

Goku: Just a point about "true" Christians. If doing the things on Driewerf's list is antithetical to Christianity and if you did those things then you are not a "true" Christian, then who exactly can claim the label of Christianity? It honestly feels that the "true" Christian is almost a kind of mythical creature that doesn't exist in the real world.

 

I've given the answer before. You have to understand what a contradiction is, properly

 

The No True Scotsman fallacy is committed if and only if the predicate doesn't truly contradict the definition. Sure, sometimes Christians may fall into that trap. Sometimes we don't know for sure if they are truly Christian. At other times it's easier to tell they were fakers, like with Jim Jones, because certain actions overtly contradict the Christian scriptures and what Christ clearly taught.

 

I assume you would agree with us that being a Christian at least means something. (you must surely have observed that a portion of anti-theists love to broaden and stretch it to new levels, just so as to implicate Christians using guilt-by-association.) You must also realise that the things that make the news usually come from the controversial, vocal minority.

 

I for one, in this thread, have not claimed that you aren't a Christian if you want Harry Potter banned or creation forced into science class, it's just that peoples true motives at heart, aren't necessarily Christian motives.

 

It is easy to conflate the two. For example, only Christians, or those professing Christianity, would try and get HP banned presumably because of the link with witchcraft. So then does it follow that because only those professing Christianity claim this, that it is a Christian thing or that they are Christian?

 

The answer is that it is certainly possible for them to not be Christian, and certainly this idea itself is not Christian.

 

The reason it only comes from those professing Christianity is because only Christianity which they propose to follow, would definitely condemn witchcraft. So then it is tautologous that an atheist would not take that position. So then is it a Christian precept?

 

The answer is a resounding "no". While the Christian bible would condemn witchcraft, clearly teaching the error of such things, it does not condemn fiction, and Harry Potter is a fictional book, not a witchcraft book.

 

So where is the error? Is it a Christian moral? No - it is an error in thinking, in those who either are, or are not Christian, because they are well meaning most of the time, and think that to take a stand for the Lord means to condemn any form of witchcraft, even the fictional form of it. 

 

By analogy imagine if an anti-evolutionist condemned a fictional story such as 2001 a Space odyssey, because it contains macro evolution, where an ape learns to use a tool as a weapon. Would this then be something that comes from all those who reject evolution? No, it would come from the relatively misguided minority.

 

Conclusion; Yes Christians can say and do dumb things, being dumb and being Christian, unfortunately seems to not be mutually exclusive even though the bible tells us to be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves. So a lot of well meaning but unwise Christians can say and do things which aren't really Christian but because they get that idea in their head, without properly weighing it against what the scripture says, then they proceed in taking action X because they have told themselves God would have them do it.


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#25 mike the wiz

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 12:05 PM

 

Goku: Can any Christian on this forum say that they do not support the teaching of creationism in public schools?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they support comprehensive s@x education in public schools?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they support stem cell research?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they do not advocate to defund Planned Parenthood?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they support same s@x marriage in the eyes of the law?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they do not advocate to ban Harry Potter or the Anne Frank diaries?

Can any Christian on this forum say that they have answered "yes" to all of the above?

 

I doubt anyone here can pass this "true" Christian test. Should I start calling everyone on EFF fake Christians?

 

I think Christians would all give different answers. Some of these, shall we say, somewhat trivial issues, seem to not have clear answers from scripture.

 

For example, the one about G*y marriage being accepted under law, that's an amalgamation of two issues in the bible.

 

1. God is clearly against G*y relationship in scripture.

2. God says to abide by the laws and authorities in place.

 

So I would say the answer is that we have to accept what God says as sin, and we can't have any part in the marriage, however because we can't judge others or force Christianity onto others, and there seems to be no criminal activity in marrying someone, that we can accept the law that there can take place a G*y marriage, which isn't really our business.

 

Some of those other questions I can answer perhaps, but only for myself. We can be guided by scripture but sometimes it is hard to fully know what God would have us say to these peculiar questions, so in that regard sometimes it is okay to be silent and not give an answer. For example what do you mean "support the teaching of creation", you would have to specify how that would be "taught in schools", do you mean in place of evolution, as creation science? I would instead prefer if both could be issued in philosophy class, given they are historical hypothetics.

 

I don't think it's strictly a matter of "either Christian or not", I think Mike was just saying that a lot of the things the right-wing, vocal minority tend to come out with, don't seem to have the love of God written on them, but rather the Pharisaical religiosity of the religiously legalistic, radicalist.

 

In America you have some odd activity, I see TV programs of "Christians" shouting agressive, offensive things at people. This just doesn't remind me of how Christ behaved, Goku. Do you want me to pretend they are Christ-like when they stand there with banners saying "fags burn in hell" outside of funerals?

 

Sorry but I just can't see how those people could even understand the scriptures let alone have the love of God. Not that this means I am agreeing with sin. If God says G*y activity is sin, I am not going to contradict Him. But the NT says, "judge not lest you be judged" with the same measure by which you judge.

 

Those people saying, "fags burn in hell", on judgement day will have banners shown to them saying the secret things they done wrong such as, "judgemental hypocrites burn in hell", "fake Christians that are wicked wolves in sheeps clothing, burn in hell", for those with no compassion, do not know the Lord.



#26 what if

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 05:04 PM

Couldn't an atheist that doesn't believe in a God, believe in elves and fairies?

sure they could, just like their fellow atheists have pointed out.
they don't mind the mystical world of harry potter but comes thoroughly unglued over the likes of the bible.
a fine double standard wouldn't you say?

#27 what if

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 05:33 PM

Can any Christian on this forum say that they do not support the teaching of creationism in public schools?

i support theology classes where the worlds religions are presented.

Can any Christian on this forum say that they support comprehensive s@x education in public schools?

i support teaching the dangers of unprotected s@x, and the merits of chastity.

Can any Christian on this forum say that they support stem cell research?

i support stem cell research, but none of that research should be applied to humanity.

Can any Christian on this forum say that they do not advocate to defund Planned Parenthood?

i advocate the defunding of planned parenthood.
you give rubbers to my underage child, and me and you are going to have a conversation.
there are laws that protect females when they decide to have a baby but really doesn't want it, they can give it up for adoption with no questions asked, and that female will never be contacted again over it.

Can any Christian on this forum say that they support same s@x marriage in the eyes of the law?

honestly?
i think this is the most disgusting concept i've heard in a very long time.
i couldn't care less if you are queer as a 3 dollar bill, marriage should be reserved for men and women.

Can any Christian on this forum say that they do not advocate to ban Harry Potter or the Anne Frank diaries?

and?
are you saying you wouldn't ban the bible from our libraries if you could?????
do you even know which side of the fence you are on?

I doubt anyone here can pass this "true" Christian test. Should I start calling everyone on EFF fake Christians?

a nice way of putting christians in a headlock goku.
propose a series of pseudo yes/no questions that can't be easily answered, and then when a cristian answers "the wrong way" you get to swoop in here and tell them what a bunch of hypocrites they are.

#28 what if

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 05:45 PM

In America you have some odd activity, I see TV programs of "Christians" shouting agressive, offensive things at people. This just doesn't remind me of how Christ behaved, Goku. Do you want me to pretend they are Christ-like when they stand there with banners saying "fags burn in hell" outside of funerals?
 
Sorry but I just can't see how those people could even understand the scriptures let alone have the love of God.

you are spot on dude.

#29 eddified

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 10:30 PM

I will always, ALWAYS vote against H*mos*xual marriage. Guys want to have s@x, fine. Government has a vested interest in society; and Marriage between a man and a woman is the bedrock of society. God surely doesn't "hate fags" (which is what the Westboro Baptist church teaches) -- He loves them very, very much. God wants what is best for us, and it's pretty clear to anyone not indoctrinated by the world, that what is best for us is to REPENT and stop the promotion and practice of h*m*s*xuality. h*m*s*xuality is a very great evil and it is doing a lot of harm to the individuals and their families. I FULLY agree with Russia's law that makes it illegal to promote h*m*s*xuality to the youth. (That is, I fully agree with what I understand of the law, which is admittedly not much. I do not know the punishment due when breaking the law so I can't endorse the punishment by any means.)

 

Don't get me wrong. I will treat anyone on this board that is H*mos*xual as an equal person. I will treat them kindly and with all due respect. *Every* human being is one of God's creations and is worthy of love and respect. But I will not bow down and tell that what they want to hear about their sexuality. The same goes for my children, if any of them "come out" I will love them while making it fully clear that I do not condone H*mos*xual behavior. I would *never* think of kicking a H*mos*xual child of mine out on the street (I don't have any H*mos*xual children, but supposing I did). There is a lie commonly held in the world today that to love a G*y person you must accept them as they are. This is a lie. I love my friends and family members even though I may disagree with some of their behaviors. 

 

There is a woman at work who is a lesbian. I treat her like any other co-worker. I help her out when she needs it. I treat her very respectfully and do not bring up my views on h*m*s*xuality (the workplace is almost never the place to do it.)

 

That said, I do believe in following the law. Since the law allows G*y marriage, I support it in that regard. I just mean that if given the chance, I will oppose G*y marriage, politically speaking.



#30 what if

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 10:49 PM

I will always, ALWAYS vote against H*mos*xual marriage.

be advised i harbor no hate or detest for these types of people.
they are what they are, and has been for 1000s of years.
probably ever since there were 2 of the same s@x.
no, i do not feel like , faggots, queers, g*ys, or whatever else they're called, deserve to be in a "blessed" union.
furthermore, there is something wrong with a mans brain* if he loves another man the way i love women.

woop, there it is.

* edit:
i think maybe wired different would be better than the word wrong.

#31 driewerf

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 01:29 AM

Of course we, atheists don't believe in Satan's existence. It is just that the few satanists around are really the fringe, and much lesser vocal than christians.

Satanists 

  • don't try to impose any teaching of creationism in school
  • don't go mad during s@x education lessons
  • don't block stem cell research
  • don't try to defund Planned Parenthood
  • don't try to block same s@x marriage or any other equality before the law.
  • Don't try to get Harry Potter books or the Anne Frank diaries removed from school libraries. http://www.csmonitor...of-a-good-thing

they just don't cause much trouble.

This was a quickly written response, made with aspecially American christians in mind. All the things listed above characterizes the American christian conservative right. I did not way that all this applies to all christians, or as Mike the Wiz took it personally, that this applied to Mike the Wiz personally.

 

But yes, all the things listed above have been done by some christians, in the name of christianity --- and affects the lifes of non christians. That's the reason for the words "causing trouble". The christians imposing the things listed above are afeecting the lifes of the non christians, or even the lifes of the christians diagreeing with this.

 

I can add to that list that christians supported dictators like Franco and Mussolini. That's historically well documented. But of course this doesn't mean that all christains then did this, or that young christians now are supportive of these dictators and their regime.



#32 Mike Summers

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 02:05 AM

Golu:

I think it truly amazing that you don't seem to be aware of your own bias. I am thinking from your point of view. Creationis is a fiction according to your belief system, and so you believe "it" should not be taught in public school. You believe that "creationism" is fiction.

Magic is a euphanism for creationism. Intelligece servrs as initital cause in both magic and creationism. Do you not see that magic and creationsm are esssential the same idea?

I agree with you that HP is fiction (whatever you think that is). The point is someone creates something from nothing in both magic and creationism.. In both cases thought is the initiak cause of someting (how magic lol).

Your bias seems to infer it's OK to teach magic (creationism by another name) in shool as opposed to the "magic" of creationism. I find this incongrency somewhat amusing. What could be more "magic" than bringing something into existence from nothing (magic)? And yet intelligence does that all the time! We call the things we bring into existence by the magic of creatiivty, inventions! They are all around us.



#33 mike the wiz

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 02:43 AM

Thanks for clarification Driewerf, I apologise for my grumpy/cantankerous response, I spoke too harshly against you.



#34 Mike Summers

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 02:13 PM

Goku said:

 

Jesus never told his followers to be doctors or engineers either. What's your point?

Jesus was a carpenter but he didn't tell his disciples to be carpenters either. Some of them were fishermen. I believe there was a tax collector among them also. Jesus believed in free choice (creativity by another name). However, he did warn against creating certain things (like hate) for another creator. He followed and taught the general rule that creators were more important their creations.

 

I call them Christians because that is how they identify themselves as. As far as I can tell these people genuinely believe that the Bible is real and that they are following Jesus. What else would you call someone that says to ban G*y marriage because of the Bible and that Christian creationism should be taught in school? Whether or not they are "true" Christians is besides the point. Doesn't C.S. Lewis say something to the effect of if someone claims to be a Christian accept it; they may be a good or bad Christian, but if they claim Christianity then it now falls between them and God alone?


Not when they do (create) and say things that Jesus said not to do and say. I think he deserves some say so in his religion. It's an utter falsity to say someone that does or says something that Jesus says expressly not to say or do is following His teachings. In I am not buying that from you. I think it would be insulting to your intelligence to claim you do not understand what I'm saying. It would be more accurate if you view people as capable of multiple functions. They can do evil in and do good. While hopefully among so called Christians a predominant choice is good, that does not mean that they will always do good and . Mere observation demonstrates this is a falsity. That is the nature of the beast. I think your use of Christianity and Atheism is much too general (to black and white or dichotomous reasoning--either or). One again the bible is right. We are mixtures of good and evil. .

You may say things I would disagree with (as I am doing) but I have not created any hate for you. Nor do I think you are ignorant or unfit. I think you believe "your version" of the truth LOL Subject to contionious revision, I also do mine.

The bible is "real", I have several copies of it. Don't you believe what you think is real LOL

 

 

We can call it "Christendom" if you want, to distinguish between the worldly culture that claims the title of Christianity, and use Christian to mean "true" Christians. Either way I'm sure your intelligence will allow you to correctly insert the proper meaning into my previous post.
[quote]
I do not do hate. I don't like feeling it. I see people as individuals first and not labels. I do, however, use labels in their general sense. But, I realize that all of us are individuals and merit being treated and seen as such. So, if an individual exhibits non-Christian behavior then, I have no problem with identifying it as such.

The problem I have with you and your view of Christianity is that you seem to think that any behavior somebody who claims they are Christian does is okay-- that makes him or her and it Christian. I am willing to concede that all of us that attempt to practice Christianity often fail and often indulge in unchristian behavior. I think it's awfully naïve to believe because someone calls himself a Christian everything they do is Christian behavior. You seem to want to place all of person person's behavior into a single category. "They did it therefore it's Christian." Not!

I choose not to throw the baby with the bath water. You exhibit a lot of Christian behavior. You are very forgiving of people. That's mighty Christian of you. :)

[quote]

Just a point about "true" Christians. If doing the things on Driewerf's list is antithetical to Christianity and if you did those things then you are not a "true" Christian, then who exactly can claim the label of Christianity? It honestly feels that the "true" Christian is almost a kind of mythical creature that doesn't exist in the real world.
[/quote]
You make a good point. I agree with it. Therefore, from now on I am going to refer only to Christian behavior instead of someone as being a "true" Christian. It's too general and does not account for non-Christian behavior done by people who claim to be Christian.

In psychology we say beware the "is" of identity. I often corrected clients when they think they are failures. Someone can fail at a specific task one time or multiple times. But, it's hard to believe they would always faill at everything (I = I am a total failure) and still walk planet earth. lol Point taken.
[quote]
 
Can any Christian on this forum say that they do not support the teaching of creationism in public schools?
Can any Christian on this forum say that they support comprehensive s@x education in public schools?
Can any Christian on this forum say that they support stem cell research?
Can any Christian on this forum say that they do not advocate to defund Planned Parenthood?
Can any Christian on this forum say that they support same s@x marriage in the eyes of the law?
Can any Christian on this forum say that they do not advocate to ban Harry Potter or the Anne Frank diaries?
Can any Christian on this forum say that they have answered "yes" to all of the above?
 
I doubt anyone here can pass this "true" Christian test. Should I start calling everyone on EFF fake Christians?

As they say, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander."
So, by the same token, is everything you do and say done within the confines of your atheistic beliefs? As a compromise why not evaluate each behavior a person chooses-- whether it's Christian or non-Christian? That way we avoid gross overgeneralizations. Do you agree?



#35 what if

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 02:24 PM

i think we should tackle one itme ate a tim;
let's pick on birth control in our schools.
how exactly is this to be laid out?

this is basically a change where you become a man are a woman.
men and women want the same and oposites.
the guy wants his 455 hemi to put out just a tad more power, while daisy in there is more concerned if her protegee will be happy.

i challenge anyone to prove the following wrong:
as far as science is concerned, the concept of god is irrelevant.

#36 Mike Summers

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 04:16 PM


What if said:

i challenge anyone to prove the following wrong:
as far as science is concerned, the concept of god is irrelevant.

It is people that practice science not science that practices people or itsellf. Science is not a reasoing being. "It " can not be issolated from being a process only an intelligent beings can use. I defy you or anyone to do anything without thinking! Practicing science, and reasoning, or thinking attempts to answer the question, "What caused a specific effect? There is no need to make a god or being out of our reaoning process.

Moreover, I am aware of no limitations or thinking process. We can think (do science) about anything we want.

How would you like somebody telling you that you are irrelevant?



#37 Goku

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 11:50 PM

Jesus was a carpenter but he didn't tell his disciples to be carpenters either. Some of them were fishermen. I believe there was a tax collector among them also. Jesus believed in free choice (creativity by another name). However, he did warn against creating certain things (like hate) for another creator. He followed and taught the general rule that creators were more important their creations.

 

Are you saying running for political office is one of those things we shouldn't "create"? Is voting also one of those things we shouldn't "create"?

 

I was always under the impression that Christianity is usually more concerned with how you do your job rather than what your job was. So why remark about how Jesus never said to be a politician? As far as I recall Jesus never said 'yes' or 'no' to any specific career.

 

Not when they do (create) and say things that Jesus said not to do and say. I think he deserves some say so in his religion. It's an utter falsity to say someone that does or says something that Jesus says expressly not to say or do is following His teachings. In I am not buying that from you. I think it would be insulting to your intelligence to claim you do not understand what I'm saying. It would be more accurate if you view people as capable of multiple functions. They can do evil in and do good. While hopefully among so called Christians a predominant choice is good, that does not mean that they will always do good and . Mere observation demonstrates this is a falsity. That is the nature of the beast. I think your use of Christianity and Atheism is much too general (to black and white or dichotomous reasoning--either or). One again the bible is right. We are mixtures of good and evil. .

You may say things I would disagree with (as I am doing) but I have not created any hate for you. Nor do I think you are ignorant or unfit. I think you believe "your version" of the truth LOL Subject to contionious revision, I also do mine.

The bible is "real", I have several copies of it. Don't you believe what you think is real LOL

 

Dave said he believed all the things Driewerf mentioned (except for the HP stuff), does this mean Dave is not a Christian to you?

 

Which parts of the list do you think is antithetical to Christianity and why?

 

The Harry Potter books are also "real", so "real" they made many movies about Harry Potter, just like the Bible.

 

 

I do not do hate. I don't like feeling it. I see people as individuals first and not labels. I do, however, use labels in their general sense. But, I realize that all of us are individuals and merit being treated and seen as such. So, if an individual exhibits non-Christian behavior then, I have no problem with identifying it as such.

The problem I have with you and your view of Christianity is that you seem to think that any behavior somebody who claims they are Christian does is okay-- that makes him or her and it Christian. I am willing to concede that all of us that attempt to practice Christianity often fail and often indulge in unchristian behavior. I think it's awfully naïve to believe because someone calls himself a Christian everything they do is Christian behavior. You seem to want to place all of person person's behavior into a single category. "They did it therefore it's Christian." Not!

I choose not to throw the baby with the bath water. You exhibit a lot of Christian behavior. You are very forgiving of people. That's mighty Christian of you. :)

 

The problem is that they don't just happen to be Christian out of coincidence, but when you ask them why they are doing those things it almost always comes back to their religion which is almost always Christian (according to them).

 

Why do they want creationism taught in science classrooms - because that's what their Christian faith tells them is true.

Why do they want abstinence only education in public schools - because abstinence is their Christian belief.

Why do they want to block stem cell research - because their Christian faith tells them it is wrong.

Why do they want to defund Planned Parenthood - because they do procedures their Christian faith tells them is immoral.

Why do they want to block same-s@x marriage - because it is against their Christian faith.

 

Sure if you press Christians for secular reasons for those things they can come up with answers (doesn't mean their answers are good), but I think we all know that the primary motivator is their Christian faith.

 

And it's not like these people are part of the fringe; the above is standard Christian right talking points. At least in America it is often only the Christian right that advocates these things. Off the top of my head, based on what I recall of American demographics, the Christian right probably makes up about 1/3 of the American cultural identity. That's not to say every member of the Christian right agrees with all five statements above, or only that people from the Christian right believes in those things.

 

Gallup Poll says 30% of Americans want only creationism to be taught in school and not evolution. (source)

National poll from 2004 says 15% of Americans support abstinence only education. (source)

Gallup Poll shows 32% of Americans morally objects to stem cell research. (source)

Washington Post poll from Jan. 2017 has 31% of Americans wanting to defund Planned Parenthood. (source)

Gallup Poll has 37% of Americans opposing G*y marriage. (source)

 

Notice how a lot of these values end up around 1/3?

 

Pew Research Center breaks down the American population by religion: http://www.pewforum....andscape-study/

25% of America is "Evangelical Protestant". This is what I would consider the 'core' of the Christian right.

15% are Mainline Protestant, and probably don't agree with much of the issues above.

6% are Historically Black Protestant, and 59% of them take the Bible literally. (source)

21% are the Catholics and the only other American Christian group of demographic notoriety, and as you can see here (source) about 1/3 of Catholics are conservative.

 

If we add the conservative Catholics and half of the Historically Black Protestants to the Evangelical Protestants, 7% + 3% + 25%, we get 35%, which corresponds to this recurring theme of about 33% of people supporting the above issues. Another thing to note is that 70% of America is Christian, which means that about half of the Christians in America can identify with the Christian right. These are just quick and dirty estimates to get a feel for the numbers.

 

The point is that it is not just a few fringe people that happen to be Christian as you want to suggest, but it is about half of all self identified Christians in America which is about one third of America.

 

As they say, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander."
So, by the same token, is everything you do and say done within the confines of your atheistic beliefs? As a compromise why not evaluate each behavior a person chooses-- whether it's Christian or non-Christian? That way we avoid gross overgeneralizations. Do you agree?

 

If someone says "I do this because I'm Christian" I don't think we can dismiss it as coincidence when roughly half of the people identifying as Christian say similar things.

 

There is a difference between doing something while you so happen to hold ideology X, and doing something because of ideology X.

 

I get the point about Christianity coming down to the correct doctrine and application of that doctrine, rather than the actions of whoever claims to be Christian, but the clearest and most concise label to give this group is the "Christian right". Do you know of a better label to use? - and before you say it's about the individual not the group, I add no meaning to the word "label" and accept all its limitations in dealing with individual people, but it is still an incredibly useful concept in understanding how the world operates.



#38 Mike Summers

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 02:53 AM

Goku said:

Mike: Jesus was a carpenter but he didn't tell his disciples to be carpenters either. Some of them were fishermen. I believe there was a tax collector among them also. Jesus believed in free choice (creativity by another name). However, he did warn against creating certain things (like hate) for another creator. He followed and taught the general rule that creators were more important their creations.

Goku: Are you saying running for political office is one of those things we shouldn't "create"? Is voting also one of those things we shouldn't "create"?

Not for you no. Create whatever you want to ceate. 

Goku: I was always under the impression that Christianity is usually more concerned with how you do your job rather than what your job was. So why remark about how Jesus never said to be a politician? As far as I recall Jesus never said 'yes' or 'no' to any specific career.

He said no man can serve two masters. If I was suppose to represent the general public, what if they wanted me to work for something Jesus opposed (like abortion)? See what I mean?
Jesus was mainly concerned with indiviual converts not the masses. Quality not quanity.

Mike Summers, on 25 Mar 2017 - 4:13 PM, said:

Not when they do (create) and say things that Jesus said not to do and say. I think he deserves some say so in his religion. It's an utter falsity to say someone that does or says something that Jesus says expressly not to say or do is following His teachings. In I am not buying that from you. I think it would be insulting to your intelligence to claim you do not understand what I'm saying. It would be more accurate if you view people as capable of multiple functions. They can do evil in and do good. While hopefully among so called Christians a predominant choice is good, that does not mean that they will always do good and . Mere observation demonstrates this is a falsity. That is the nature of the beast. I think your use of Christianity and Atheism is much too general (to black and white or dichotomous reasoning--either or). One again the bible is right. We are mixtures of good and evil. .
You may say things I would disagree with (as I am doing) but I have not created any hate for you. Nor do I think you are ignorant or unfit. I think you believe "your version" of the truth LOL Subject to contionious revision, I also do mine.

The bible is "real", I have several copies of it. Don't you believe what you think is real LOL
 
Dave said he believed all the things Driewerf mentioned (except for the HP stuff), does this mean Dave is not a Christian to you?

Mike: I never said Dave was not a Christian. You don't agree that we are no lonmger going to play the game of "true" Christian and rather concentrate on what is and isn't Christian behavior?

Which parts of the list do you think is antithetical to Christianity and why?

I think this is a foolish test that I choose not to participate in.

Goku: The Harry Potter books are also "real", so "real" they made many movies about Harry Potter, just like the Bible.
  
I do not do hate. I don't like feeling it. I see people as individuals first and not labels. I do, however, use labels in their general sense. But, I realize that all of us are individuals and merit being treated and seen as such. So, if an individual exhibits non-Christian behavior then, I have no problem with identifying it as such.

Mike: The problem I have with you and your view of Christianity is that you seem to think that any behavior somebody who claims they are Christian does is okay-- that makes him or her and it Christian. I am willing to concede that all of us that attempt to practice Christianity often fail and often indulge in unchristian behavior. I think it's awfully naïve to believe because someone calls himself a Christian everything they do is Christian behavior. You seem to want to place all of person person's behavior into a single category. "They did it therefore it's Christian." Not!

I choose not to throw the baby with the bath water. You exhibit a lot of Christian behavior. You are very forgiving of people. That's mighty Christian of you.

Goku: The problem is that they don't just happen to be Christian out of coincidence, but when you ask them why they are doing those things it almost always comes back to their religion which is almost always Christian (according to them).

This is a Democracy. So people are welcome to campaiogn and vote for what they want.
I don't think you understand the nature of beliefs. You are doing what you think because of your religion (belief system by another name). What's the difference? It's all just evo in action and evo will sort it out. Don 't you believe in evo? Have faith. 

Goku: Why do they want creationism taught in science classrooms - because that's what their Christian faith tells them is true.
Why do they want abstinence only education in public schools - because abstinence is their Christian belief.
Why do they want to block stem cell research - because their Christian faith tells them it is wrong.
Why do they want to defund Planned Parenthood - because they do procedures their Christian faith tells them is immoral.
Why do they want to block same-s@x marriage - because it is against their Christian faith.

The majority rules in a democracy.
And aren 't you opposed because of your evo faith? Don't you have any faith in evo to sort it out? Teach both sides and stop trying to censor and control. That way people can make their own choice.
Why don't you want everything taught?

Goku: Sure if you press Christians for secular reasons for those things they can come up with answers (doesn't mean their answers are good), but I think we all know that the primary motivator is their Christian faith.

Mike: I gues you expect us to think you have no motive. Get real! But according to youe worldview evo is responsible. Ask it why it evolved some of us as Christians? No one can fight evo and win! I am a victime of evo just like you are? Right? Why do you keep trying to blame us for what evo did (cause us to be Christians).

Goku: And it's not like these people are part of the fringe; the above is standard Christian right talking points. At least in America it is often only the Christian right that advocates these things. Off the top of my head, based on what I recall of American demographics, the Christian right probably makes up about 1/3 of the American cultural identity. That's not to say every member of the Christian right agrees with all five statements above, or only that people from the Christian right believes in those things.

Mike: Again all this just evo in action. Shouldn't you be blaming evolution for all the mess. Since you don't believe in God and free choice am I not as a Christians what I evolved into--a victims of the process of evo? It only seems "Christians make choices but we are as Hawkings says robuts doing what our chemicals tell us to dol!
 

Goku: Gallup Poll says 30% of Americans want only creationism to be taught in school and not evolution. (source)
National poll from 2004 says 15% of Americans support abstinence only education. (source)
Gallup Poll shows 32% of Americans morally objects to stem cell research. (source)
Washington Post poll from Jan. 2017 has 31% of Americans wanting to defund Planned Parenthood. (source)
Gallup Poll has 37% of Americans opposing G*y marriage. (source)
 
Notice how a lot of these values end up around 1/3?
 
Pew Research Center breaks down the American population by religion: http://www.pewforum....andscape-study/
25% of America is "Evangelical Protestant". This is what I would consider the 'core' of the Christian right.
15% are Mainline Protestant, and probably don't agree with much of the issues above.
6% are Historically Black Protestant, and 59% of them take the Bible literally. (source)
21% are the Catholics and the only other American Christian group of demographic notoriety, and as you can see here (source) about 1/3 of Catholics are conservative.
 
If we add the conservative Catholics and half of the Historically Black Protestants to the Evangelical Protestants, 7% + 3% + 25%, we get 35%, which corresponds to this recurring theme of about 33% of people supporting the above issues. Another thing to note is that 70% of America is Christian, which means that about half of the Christians in America can identify with the Christian right. These are just quick and dirty estimates to get a feel for the numbers.
 
The point is that it is not just a few fringe people that happen to be Christian as you want to suggest, but it is about half of all self identified Christians in America which is about one third of America.

Mikke: But that's the reality of the situation--what evolution has wrought. So what do you want me to do about it? Accept blame for evo does?

Mike Summers, on 25 Mar 2017 - 4:13 PM, said:

Mike: As they say, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander."
So, by the same token, is everything you do and say done within the confines of your atheistic beliefs? As a compromise why not evaluate each behavior a person chooses-- whether it's Christian or non-Christian? That way we avoid gross overgeneralizations. Do you agree?
 
Goku: If someone says "I do this because I'm Christian" I don't think we can dismiss it as coincidence when roughly half of the people identifying as Christian say similar things.

According to atheism/ evolution people do what they do because their chemicals cause them to--we are all victims of evo's mutations. You act like you think we have free choice?
 

Goku: There is a difference between doing something while you so happen to hold ideology X, and doing something because of ideology X.
 

Mike: Isn't evo more powerul than all of us?

I get the point about Christianity coming down to the correct doctrine and application of that doctrine, rather than the actions of whoever claims to be Christian, but the clearest and most concise label to give this group is the "Christian right". Do you know of a better label to use? - and before you say it's about the individual not the group, I add no meaning to the word "label" and accept all its limitations in dealing with individual people, but it is still an incredibly useful concept in understanding how the world operates.

 

Like I said, in a democracy aaall people have a say.

It's all just evo in action. Evo will sort it out and only the fittest will survuve. I guess you are hoping the fittest will be your side and all the Christians will die out because they are unfit. LOL :)


 



#39 mike the wiz

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 03:07 AM

 

 

What If: i think we should tackle one itme ate a tim;
let's pick on birth control in our schools.
how exactly is this to be laid out?

 

But the problem is, sometimes Christians don't care about the world's problems.

 

Think about it this way as an analogy. Imagine if Hitler had won, and now the dicussion on the table was how to most efficiently kill people of other race, and you asked a Christian should they be hanged or shot.

 

Do the Amish have a problem with birth control, despite getting no education?

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I don't care about people, what I'm saying is that if a secular system has won out, a Godless system, then why should a Christian say anything? It is the world's problem - and all they can do is make a hash out of it. Now look at the amish, what is the abortion rate? What is the STD rate, etc....so as you can see, really these matters are discussions about the cure, but the Lord in His wisdom has provided prevention, which is better than cure.

 

Would you rather have a tooth extracted, or would you rather keep the tooth in good condition and suffer no pain or loss? Now when those who voice what the Lord has said, tell you to keep your tooth in good health, you then try and get their opinion when the tooth rots because you ignore them, and say those people are wrong and, "causing trouble".

 

Indeed no - for the true cause of the problem is in the lack of prevention. The true cause of the problem isn't the Christian. Saying, "this is the reality, you Christians are wrong as we have to deal with the problems at hand", doesn't mean we caused the problem. Those problems exist because sin is accepted as moral, by secular society, and the Amish don't have those problems, which proves God wisdom is correct and worldly wisdom is a shambles.

 

(I don't mean "you" literally of course, "What If". just how I typed my post)


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#40 Dave

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 09:40 AM

I challenge anyone to prove the following wrong:
as far as science is concerned, the concept of god is irrelevant.

Gosh, that one's easy. But it's kind of a trick question, isn't it.

 

As far as modern science is concerned, as it is corrupted by the atheist agenda, yes, God is not only irrelevant, but is something to be eliminated.

 

However, as far as true science is concerned, as it was practiced in the golden age of science, God was not only relevant but the Bible was the source of inspiration for many of the amazing advances made in science in that day.

 

Many, if not most, of the founding fathers of science were not only religious but were inspired by God's word to seek out the truth about his creation. This has been an interest of mine for some time, and I have posted about it in the past. Somewhere I've got a list of these founding fathers of faith and their accomplishments, many of which have familiar laws and theories of science named after them.

 

Did you know that Isaac Newton, for example, wrote more words about the Bible than he did about science?

 

The great tragedy of the "atheism" of science is that many, many discoveries are waiting to be made but are in stillbirth because "scientists" are wasting so much time chasing fairy tales like evolution, big bang, etc.






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