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Thought-Provoking Article On The Origin Of Life


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#1 Dave

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 01:04 PM

This is an interesting and thought-provoking article on the origin of life from a chemical point of view:

 

The Statement of Chemistry on the Origin of Life

 

The main thesis of the article is contained in a quote from the work of Nobel Prize winning Harvard Biologist George Wald's article in the August 1954, Scientific American titled, "The Origin of Life,"

 

"In the vast majority of processes in which we are interested the point of equilibrium lies far over toward the side of dissolution. That is to say, spontaneous dissolution is much more probable, and hence proceeds much more rapidly, than spontaneous synthesis."

 

Further from the article:

 

Dr. Wald proffers probability as a possible solution ("yet … I believe," because given enough time, Wald speculated, anything can happen), but time is not the savior; time leads to equilibrium, to dissolution, not to "anything," at least in this Universe. And, if Chemical Equilibrium could be overcome, naturally, where probability would then be relevant, the incomprehensible number of compounds which could be formed could never be sorted, selected to construct anything useful. Both Chemical Equilibrium and probability are absolute blocks to life.

 

I'm reminded of what Lee Spetner has calculated in his "Not by Chance" what the astronomical (literally) probability against mud-to-man evolution actually is. See this article reviewing and summarizing his massive study and conclusion.

 

And the take-away is:

 

The problem is not what we don’t know; the problem, now revealed by microbiology, is what we do know.

 

All in all, this is a very thought-provoking article laying out that the process of the origin of life through chemical means is not "unknown" to science so far as many evolutionists claim, but is virtually impossible.



#2 mike the wiz

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 05:10 AM

Dave it does astound me that everything so strongly points to such a natural origin as false. Just speaking on a conversational level for a moment rather than in debate mode, doesn't it raise a smile when you read something like this about and then at the same time in your mind, remind yourself of the Bombardier beetle, or metamorphosis, or people, and as you read such things and then compare real life to these explanations, surely it turns into a laugh, because it quite literally is so blatantly obvious that God has made men look silly. The smartest of them, the most knowledgeable of them, are chasing their tails trying to make mud out of the miraculous. But when we compare those miracles, look at all the marvels that exist, we must surely shake our heads. 

 

All of those PHDs are as discombobulated children fishing around in the dark but all of their assumptions are based on the most absurd folly imaginable - that an overtly miraculous creation could be a matter of scientific cause.


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#3 what if

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 09:32 AM

i keep raising this issue, but i haven't been able to get any kind of rational answer.

where, and what is the nature of, this pervading intelligence?

 

i absolutely refuse to believe that a loving, benevolent, all powerful, god would allow all of the nonsense that goes on.

we all would be living the good life, no worries, strife, grief, pain, all our needs met.

 

adam and eve sinned, so punish me for it, is this gods idea of justice?

 

don't get me wrong, i've wrangled with the question of god my entire life.

i have no answers, and all i can do is sit here shaking my head saying "something ain't quit right". 


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#4 mike the wiz

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 11:04 AM

 

What If: i keep raising this issue, but i haven't been able to get any kind of rational answer.

where, and what is the nature of, this pervading intelligence?

 

i absolutely refuse to believe that a loving, benevolent, all powerful, god would allow all of the nonsense that goes on.

we all would be living the good life, no worries, strife, grief, pain, all our needs met.

 

And yet the miraculous is clearly unavoidable. It seems to me you are confronted with an example of a disjunctive syllogism here, where you have two mutually exclusive options which hold some inconsistencies that must be reconciled;

 

1. Either God does exist because there is clearly no answer to what surely must be miraculous, and if so from a human perspective the facts that seem inconsistent must be reconciled somehow.

2. God doesn't exist and the miraculous which exists must be reconciled somehow with  a natural theory.

 

I would say then that there can only be one or the other, and if we can rule out one then the other must be true no matter what it's inconsistencies.

 

With that in mind I would say that if we go with the true known facts then what is being said in the opening message is that there is no way for life to come about naturally and all of the evidence points away from this. On the other hand we have the facts of life themselves which also show a miraculous level of intelligent design.

 

In other words it seems to me that if you rule out number 2 you are left with number 1 and if you are left with number 1 then you must come to terms with the fact that the inconsistencies may have answers to them which are either very difficult to accept or unknown, or not fully known to us.

 

However I do have sympathy for the argument which is sometimes called philosophically, The Problem Of Evil and Suffering. It is true that philosophically this problem is a very powerful argument for atheism and one of the most powerful arguments against God. I don't think there is any way to fully argue a perfect response. However if 2 must be false then 1 must be true if those are the only two possibilities and it seems almost 100% certain that the miraculous is true.

 

So then your struggle to understand, "What If", is the struggle we all have to understand, to some degree. To my mind there is nothing more counter-intuitive that believing God will answer my request for more customers and yet at the same time He will allow a prayer to heal cancer to go in one ear and out the other, or that at the very same time He will be aware someone is being murdered while I request pleasure or some other vain, relatively unimportant thing.

 

This will always be the greatest mystery. And yet, if number 1 MUST be true then logically it follows that there must be answers.

 

SOME POSSIBLE ANSWERS;

 

God is evil/the force that created life is evil.

 

This doesn't really work for sensible people in the sense that there is something innately wrong about this argument. Intuitively people just kind of know that if God exists He would have to be a Creator and creation tends to go against having a destructive attitude. My second point against this argument is that God's mind is inconceivably great, nothing we can even really imagine as limited humans, in which case if God is sadistic or evil even humans alone with so much less power and intelligence, could create much, much, much more evil on earth that God is apparently causing. For example we could breed humans in concentration camps if we were evil, and torture to death slowly, maybe 95% of them while breeding more and more from the remaining percentage.

 

Conclusion; If God is evil then He is dumb, and since the one responsible for creating life cannot be dumb therefore God cannot be evil.

 

God is pantheistic, He doesn't care about humans any more than He does ants.

 

Again it doesn't make sense because of the human condition. We are designed to be moral, we innately know that there is a problem with the world.

 

My answer; God MUST allow evil in a temporary/Godless system

 

This is basically the answer that satisfies me most, personally. That if God says while man is living in paradise, "don't choose sin and going it alone without me", if mankind chooses, "no God" and chooses to be his own god, then if God allowed the world to continue as though it was ruled by Him and not us, and there was no difference to the paradisical world, then that would be tantamount to God declaring this; "There are no consequences to having a God-made system without God in that system." And remember what you said? You said; "we all would be living the good life, no worries, strife, grief, pain, all our needs met" Would we? I don't think so if God said we would die if we disobeyed. So according to the bible, we very defnitely would not be living the good life, except at the beginning when we walked with God at the beginning of time. I also have witnessed that "living the good life" isn't a test of character. I can tell you in my own spiritual walk, BEFORE I went through what I have went through, I was a shallow piece of meat. That is to say, as difficult as it is to have to cope with, there is something about being tested which produces character, there is something wrong with a superficial person that has never known pain of any kind, that person can't relate to you. S/He can't say, "I know all about that" because they know precisely SQUAT. They are likely air-heads that only know the easy ways of life, ease comfort and pleasure. They likely don't give a fig about poor people or people suffering and will likely put themselves first having only been conditioned to look after number one.

 

This would be from a rationalists point of view - a LUDICROUS course to take, because if God didn't take His hands off He would be justifying all of the anti-God arguments and the anti-God worldview. In a very real way, God must allow abortion to show how bloody it gets without Him in the formula, God must allow murder, to show how terrible the consequences are when men follow their hatred, anger and lust, and obey their sinful nature and not the divine nature. God must allow disease to show that a system without God is one bound to be broken. In short, God is effectively saying to mankind, "I told you so."

 

So God was right, when someone is murdered for S@xual pleasure, that's exactly what He's talking about, that kind of feeding of lustful/wrong desires can actually lead to something truly terrible, which He didn't want.

 

Finally, Christ Himself suffered badly which changes things entirely in that Christianity is the only theistic belief which tells us that God has experienced the consequences of a Godless system, Himself. That he had to die as a human shows us that God really is immutable, that He can't cross Himself. (can't break His own rules). So He knew that He Himself to satisfy His own rules, must suffer and die because we could never satisfy them having broken then. For we are as helpless children, our morality is pitifully small compared to God's holy standards.

 

(I give this explanation for you to read, "What If", not to debate you but to simply explain how I see it.) To my mind, there cannot be, "not God". Sure you can say I am somehow wrong - that's ultimately up to you, but I myself could never convince myself God is not there because my problem is, - He does answer me. Even when I test Him and am simply being a doubter, He answers. For some reason He only answers the prayers of His children. (those born again in Christ). Maybe He is just being true to Himself, and after all He is God, if He is not true to Himself then we would live in a world of chaos. So many times I wonder why God bothers with me, and yet I have to confess he does. If I was conjuring it all up it wouldn't last, and I would be atheist by now. No man can fake it until he makes it - God really has to be there if you really do need Him. If He isn't you don't make it.



#5 Blitzking

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 12:57 PM

i keep raising this issue, but i haven't been able to get any kind of rational answer.
where, and what is the nature of, this pervading intelligence?
 
i absolutely refuse to believe that a loving, benevolent, all powerful, god would allow all of the nonsense that goes on.
we all would be living the good life, no worries, strife, grief, pain, all our needs met.
 
adam and eve sinned, so punish me for it, is this gods idea of justice?
 
don't get me wrong, i've wrangled with the question of god my entire life.
i have no answers, and all i can do is sit here shaking my head saying "something ain't quit right".



"i absolutely refuse to believe that a loving, benevolent, all powerful, god would allow all of the nonsense that goes on."


So you believe that God should have eliminated free will and created robotic dolls that go around like a tape recorder saying "I love you God" all day? That would have eliminated all of the "nonsense" you referred to....

#6 Blitzking

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 01:27 PM

i keep raising this issue, but i haven't been able to get any kind of rational answer.
where, and what is the nature of, this pervading intelligence?
 
i absolutely refuse to believe that a loving, benevolent, all powerful, god would allow all of the nonsense that goes on.
we all would be living the good life, no worries, strife, grief, pain, all our needs met.
 
adam and eve sinned, so punish me for it, is this gods idea of justice?
 
don't get me wrong, i've wrangled with the question of god my entire life.
i have no answers, and all i can do is sit here shaking my head saying "something ain't quit right".



"adam and eve sinned, so punish me for it, is this gods idea of justice?"


But in that sense, EVERYONE is "Adam and Eve"!

Just like them, we are given a choice.. Obey God and seek him out in spirit and in truth by accepting his Son as our saviour and being born again of the spirit as he said is required of us, Or say that we dont need or want to do it God's way (Like Adam and Eve) Or make excuses by pretending (Like many do) that "Evolution" has been proven by Science therefore eliminating the Judeo Christian God fron the equation..

That is the only reason the idiotic Fairytale of Evolution wasnt dumped into the trashcan of history a century ago.. Because..

"Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled Atheist"
Richard Dawkins

"what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse." Romans


"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." 2 Timothy

#7 Dave

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Posted 27 November 2017 - 07:51 PM

i absolutely refuse to believe that a loving, benevolent, all powerful, god would allow all of the nonsense that goes on.
we all would be living the good life, no worries, strife, grief, pain, all our needs met.

 

What If, something else to keep in mind is that in God's timing our little sojourn on this earth is but a speck of time in the eternity we will spend either with God or without him. Plus, in the one case all the suffering will be forgotten and there will be no more tears.

 

In a nutshell, as others have said here, all the evil in the world is man's doing because God gave us free will. He did that specifically so we could choose him of our own free will. Some choose him early on, and others later. Sadly, many, many more choose eternity without him.

 

Bottom line is that it is a tragic mistake for one to not choose him because one mistakenly attributes the man-made evil in the world to the gracious and merciful God.



#8 Goku

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Posted 28 November 2017 - 06:47 AM

Bottom line is that it is a tragic mistake for one to not choose him because one mistakenly attributes the man-made evil in the world to the gracious and merciful God.

 

I get that God gave us free will. While I don't think that is a fully satisfying answer for the man-made evil in this world (even we in our fallen state know the need for police to physically stop people from expressing their free will when it harms others, yet God does not?), even if we assume free will is a fully satisfying answer for man-made evil there is a glaring part of the 'evil and suffering' problem that is not addressed: natural disaster.

 

Me having free will to go out and steal and murder does not explain why children get cancer, or why earthquakes and hurricanes etc. hurt, kill, and turn lives upside-down.
 



#9 Dave

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Posted 28 November 2017 - 09:29 AM

Me having free will to go out and steal and murder does not explain why children get cancer, or why earthquakes and hurricanes etc. hurt, kill, and turn lives upside-down.

The human condition was not the only thing affected by the fall. The earth itself lost the perfect state it was in at creation. Entropy, among many other conditions, set in. Remember, before the fall there was no death, so obviously there were no killing volcanoes, earthquakes, etc. Once again, it was not God's choice or doing that caused the fall ... it was man's free will.



#10 Blitzking

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Posted 28 November 2017 - 10:01 AM

Bottom line is that it is a tragic mistake for one to not choose him because one mistakenly attributes the man-made evil in the world to the gracious and merciful God.


I get that God gave us free will. While I don't think that is a fully satisfying answer for the man-made evil in this world (even we in our fallen state know the need for police to physically stop people from expressing their free will when it harms others, yet God does not?), even if we assume free will is a fully satisfying answer for man-made evil there is a glaring part of the 'evil and suffering' problem that is not addressed: natural disaster.

Me having free will to go out and steal and murder does not explain why children get cancer, or why earthquakes and hurricanes etc. hurt, kill, and turn lives upside-down.
Your concerns would be extremely valid if all there was is the physical realm..

HOWEVER

God talks about the spirit world in the Bible and the requirement to become part of it in order to relate to him in any way whatsoever.. It mentions the spirit over and over and over while God's destain for the flesh over and over and over...

Of course none of this makes sense unless one is born again of the spirit as per his commandment..

Man is already quite comfortable going about his life without a need for God, He has even made up incredible fantasies and fairytales in order to try to explain away God's obvious existence.. 100 "Million Year Old" red blood cells? Give me a break..

Without Earthquakes, Hurricanes or Cancer, to remind us of how fragil our situation is and instill a sense of urgency I am sure there would be even more people who find a way to reject their inate need for God... What tends to happen when people get affected by or lose loved ones due to disease or disaster?
Most of the time they resort to prayer and supplication.. Reaching out to God as a last resort.. I believe that God nudges us along as much as he can without coercing us to the point of making our choice for us. I have seen Atheists pray to a "Higher Power" at funerals before.. Are you saying they arent "True Atheists"? Maybe so.. I dont actually believe that there really exists such a thing... I could be wrong..

You mentioned police stopping people from expressing their "free will" How has that been working out lately? Not too good I would say.. The jails are so crowded here in California that they are letting felons out early... Good luck with that...

#11 Goku

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 12:20 AM

Your concerns would be extremely valid if all there was is the physical realm..


HOWEVER

God talks about the spirit world in the Bible and the requirement to become part of it in order to relate to him in any way whatsoever.. It mentions the spirit over and over and over while God's destain for the flesh over and over and over...

Of course none of this makes sense unless one is born again of the spirit as per his commandment..

Man is already quite comfortable going about his life without a need for God, He has even made up incredible fantasies and fairytales in order to try to explain away God's obvious existence.. 100 "Million Year Old" red blood cells? Give me a break..

Without Earthquakes, Hurricanes or Cancer, to remind us of how fragil our situation is and instill a sense of urgency I am sure there would be even more people who find a way to reject their inate need for God... What tends to happen when people get affected by or lose loved ones due to disease or disaster?
Most of the time they resort to prayer and supplication.. Reaching out to God as a last resort.. I believe that God nudges us along as much as he can without coercing us to the point of making our choice for us. I have seen Atheists pray to a "Higher Power" at funerals before.. Are you saying they arent "True Atheists"? Maybe so.. I dont actually believe that there really exists such a thing... I could be wrong..

 

How does having a spirit realm mitigate the problem of evil?

 

Spirit world or not, relationship with God or not, there is still the problem of evil. You say it is to remind us of how fragile our situation is, but that doesn't make any sense. Many believers have such "evil" experiences from cancer to natural disasters destroying their homes, and logically they have no need for an 'extra push' towards God since they are already within the body of Christ - never mind Jesus says both believers and unbelievers will have such misfortunes. In addition many victims of these things are children, some too young to even comprehend things like God or repentance.

 

If it is to push people towards having a relationship with God, then surely you can see how roundabout that is. If God wants a personal relationship with someone why can't he do the logical thing, appear before them, and have a conversation. Artificially creating an unpleasant experience so that we seek him out is juvenile. It reminds me of a stereotypical elementary boy who likes a girl but doesn't know how to express his feelings, and so ends up being mean to her instead.

 

People do tend to be more open to ideas like God during hardships, including funerals, and if you want to say God uses those times to reach out to them, for God can glean good from even an ugly situation that is one thing. But, to suggest that God created those trialing times for the purpose of making them believers is another beast altogether.

 

I think many atheists haven't completely internalized atheism emotionally, and then question that belief implicitly or explicitly in emotionally heightened states,. That said, there are atheists who have emotionally internalized it and do not pray to God or anything during tribulations or danger.

 

You mentioned police stopping people from expressing their "free will" How has that been working out lately? Not too good I would say.. The jails are so crowded here in California that they are letting felons out early... Good luck with that...

 

First, I find it disturbing that you are more or less advocating anarchy because our justice system is not perfect.

 

Second, our jails are overcrowded due to a prison industrial complex from the merging of for profit private prisons with government laws and policy. Private prisons literally pay lawmakers to keep and introduce laws in order to put and keep people in prison, and again pay lawmakers to be awarded government contracts to house prisoners in their private prisons.
 



#12 Blitzking

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 08:22 PM

Your concerns would be extremely valid if all there was is the physical realm..

HOWEVER
God talks about the spirit world in the Bible and the requirement to become part of it in order to relate to him in any way whatsoever.. It mentions the spirit over and over and over while God's destain for the flesh over and over and over...
Of course none of this makes sense unless one is born again of the spirit as per his commandment..
Man is already quite comfortable going about his life without a need for God, He has even made up incredible fantasies and fairytales in order to try to explain away God's obvious existence.. 100 "Million Year Old" red blood cells? Give me a break..
Without Earthquakes, Hurricanes or Cancer, to remind us of how fragil our situation is and instill a sense of urgency I am sure there would be even more people who find a way to reject their inate need for God... What tends to happen when people get affected by or lose loved ones due to disease or disaster?
Most of the time they resort to prayer and supplication.. Reaching out to God as a last resort.. I believe that God nudges us along as much as he can without coercing us to the point of making our choice for us. I have seen Atheists pray to a "Higher Power" at funerals before.. Are you saying they arent "True Atheists"? Maybe so.. I dont actually believe that there really exists such a thing... I could be wrong..

 
How does having a spirit realm mitigate the problem of evil?
 
Spirit world or not, relationship with God or not, there is still the problem of evil. You say it is to remind us of how fragile our situation is, but that doesn't make any sense. Many believers have such "evil" experiences from cancer to natural disasters destroying their homes, and logically they have no need for an 'extra push' towards God since they are already within the body of Christ - never mind Jesus says both believers and unbelievers will have such misfortunes. In addition many victims of these things are children, some too young to even comprehend things like God or repentance.
 
If it is to push people towards having a relationship with God, then surely you can see how roundabout that is. If God wants a personal relationship with someone why can't he do the logical thing, appear before them, and have a conversation. Artificially creating an unpleasant experience so that we seek him out is juvenile. It reminds me of a stereotypical elementary boy who likes a girl but doesn't know how to express his feelings, and so ends up being mean to her instead.
 
People do tend to be more open to ideas like God during hardships, including funerals, and if you want to say God uses those times to reach out to them, for God can glean good from even an ugly situation that is one thing. But, to suggest that God created those trialing times for the purpose of making them believers is another beast altogether.
 
I think many atheists haven't completely internalized atheism emotionally, and then question that belief implicitly or explicitly in emotionally heightened states,. That said, there are atheists who have emotionally internalized it and do not pray to God or anything during tribulations or danger.
 

You mentioned police stopping people from expressing their "free will" How has that been working out lately? Not too good I would say.. The jails are so crowded here in California that they are letting felons out early... Good luck with that...

 
First, I find it disturbing that you are more or less advocating anarchy because our justice system is not perfect.
 
Second, our jails are overcrowded due to a prison industrial complex from the merging of for profit private prisons with government laws and policy. Private prisons literally pay lawmakers to keep and introduce laws in order to put and keep people in prison, and again pay lawmakers to be awarded government contracts to house prisoners in their private prisons.



The first part of your post seems to imply the following...
(Correct me if I am wrong)

Goku WOULDN'T have done it that way AND / OR God SHOULDN'T have done it that way..

THEREFORE

God doesn't exist...

As Christians, The two most important words in our vocabulary other than "Love" are "Faith" and Trust" We have Faith in God, AND we Trust that he knows better then we do (And even Goku as well) and the plan he laid out is the best possible plan that could possibly have been carried out..

( Man has been guilty over the milinium of something called "Unintended Consequences") where he thinks his actions are the BEST when, in hindsight, they couldn't have been much WORSE... Over and over and over..


"First, I find it disturbing that you are more or less advocating anarchy because our justice system is not perfect."

What a headscratcher... I cant conceive how ANYONE could possibly come to that kind of insane conclusion based on what I wrote here...


(You mentioned police stopping people from expressing their "free will" How has that been working out lately? Not too good I would say.. The jails are so crowded here in California that they are letting felons out early... Good luck with that...)


"Prison Industrial Complex"

Been reading a lot of left wing garbage lately? LOL

Let me guess.. Salon, Mother Jones, Huff Post, Slate.. How am I doing?

Of course, Drugs, Rape, Murder, Fraud, Etc couldnt be part of the problem..

Ever stop to think that lying to generations of high school biology students and convincing them that they are nothing more than a fortunate yet meaningless ape that evolved from pond scum by accident might be the BIGGEST reason why people are acting more and more like immoral, heartless, soul less Animals? They tell our students that it is a scientific fact that man is no better than a Fish, Plant, or Insect... Dont take MY word for it.. Cal State University Evolution 101 Website spells it out for us clearly, And it is as ugly as can be.



https://goo.gl/images/itcqLE

We are back to the famous "Unintended Consequences" again arent we....

#13 what if

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 09:41 AM

In a nutshell, as others have said here, all the evil in the world is man's doing because God gave us free will.

what does this say about a "perfect" god?
if god was some "all powerful" entity then why is there evil at all and why is there a "devil"?

OTOH, why does almost every culture has some kind of god?
why is this "god concept" a universal phenomenon?

like i keep saying, i have no answers, just more questions.

i fail to believe that the living cell pulled itself out of a pond of chemical soup. 

#14 Dave

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 10:36 AM

 

In a nutshell, as others have said here, all the evil in the world is man's doing because God gave us free will.

what does this say about a "perfect" god?
if god was some "all powerful" entity then why is there evil at all and why is there a "devil"?

OTOH, why does almost every culture has some kind of god?
why is this "god concept" a universal phenomenon?

like i keep saying, i have no answers, just more questions.

i fail to believe that the living cell pulled itself out of a pond of chemical soup. 

 

 

"if god was some "all powerful" entity then why is there evil at all and why is there a "devil"?"

 

I believe this has already been answered in this thread. He gave us free will in order for us to choose Him of our own volition. Some have chosen a different path, and that is where evil comes in.

 

"OTOH, why does almost every culture have some kind of god?
Why is this "god concept" a universal phenomenon?"

 

One of my favorite Bible teachers says that everyone is born with a God-shaped hole in their heart. If one chooses to not fill that hole with the true God of the Bible, then he or she will find some other god-like thing to fill it with. Many atheists won't admit it, but even they have something god-like that they put their blind faith in.



#15 Blitzking

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 12:20 PM

In a nutshell, as others have said here, all the evil in the world is man's doing because God gave us free will.

what does this say about a "perfect" god?if god was some "all powerful" entity then why is there evil at all and why is there a "devil"?OTOH, why does almost every culture has some kind of god?why is this "god concept" a universal phenomenon?like i keep saying, i have no answers, just more questions.i fail to believe that the living cell pulled itself out of a pond of chemical soup.


"what does this say about a "perfect" god?
if god was some "all powerful" entity then why is there evil at all and why is there a "devil"?


Because he didnt want robotic beings walking around saying "I love you lord" on a recorded tape.. Even man knows that forced affection is meaningless affection....

The 2 most important qualities in the Bible besides Love are Faith and Trust, we put our Faith in God and Trust him that he knows better than we do when it comes to difficult concepts..
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#16 Goku

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 02:38 PM

The first part of your post seems to imply the following...

(Correct me if I am wrong)

Goku WOULDN'T have done it that way AND / OR God SHOULDN'T have done it that way..

THEREFORE

God doesn't exist...

As Christians, The two most important words in our vocabulary other than "Love" are "Faith" and Trust" We have Faith in God, AND we Trust that he knows better then we do (And even Goku as well) and the plan he laid out is the best possible plan that could possibly have been carried out..

( Man has been guilty over the milinium of something called "Unintended Consequences") where he thinks his actions are the BEST when, in hindsight, they couldn't have been much WORSE... Over and over and over..

 

Not at all; we were talking about the problem of evil, and you acknowledged that my point would be valid if there wasn't a spirit realm, and so I asked how a spirit realm would solve the problem of evil. Can you elaborate on your point?

 

Your second answer was that God uses natural disasters to draw people to him, but this has significant flaws logically and theologically. In addition to what I said last time about it being a roundabout way to do things, logically it doesn't make any sense as both believers and unbelievers get hurt and killed in natural disasters. Believers, by virtue of being a believer, doesn't need to be reminded that God exists, and many of the victims of natural disasters are children with some too young to comprehend concepts like God and repentance. In addition how is killing a nonbeliever, which you believe they end up in eternal Hell without a chance to escape, going to draw them to Christ? Theologically, Jesus said (paraphrased) natural disasters will hit both believers and nonbelievers, so it isn't even internally consistent with the doctrine of Christianity.

 

You can say you have all the faith in the world when it comes to your God and the problem of evil, but that is more of an admission of not having an answer than anything else.

 

"First, I find it disturbing that you are more or less advocating anarchy because our justice system is not perfect."

What a headscratcher... I cant conceive how ANYONE could possibly come to that kind of insane conclusion based on what I wrote here...

 

In the context of the discussion. I said even we humans in our fallen state know that it is wrong to hurt others against their will with police being the embodiment of that ideal, as opposed to God who lets it happen. Your response was that the police have failed, and I took that as meaning we should instead follow your God's footsteps of doing absolutely nothing when someone is raped, murdered, or robbed - aka anarchy.

 

(You mentioned police stopping people from expressing their "free will" How has that been working out lately? Not too good I would say.. The jails are so crowded here in California that they are letting felons out early... Good luck with that...)

 

So we should abolish the police and not stop people from expressing their free will to harm others?

 

Of course we have many problems with the justice system, and below I highlight a few of them, but the chief point I am making here is that we instinctively know that it is the right thing to stop a murderer from murdering someone, yet your God is amazingly apathetic in real world practice. For all the faults of our justice system it is infinitely better than what your absent God has done.

 

"Prison Industrial Complex"

Been reading a lot of left wing garbage lately? LOL

Let me guess.. Salon, Mother Jones, Huff Post, Slate.. How am I doing?

Of course, Drugs, Rape, Murder, Fraud, Etc couldnt be part of the problem..

 

So facts are now left wing garbage?

 

We have a serious problem with our justice system. We have the highest number of incarcerations per capita of any country in the world. In the past few decades our prison population has exploded, yet the number of violent crimes and theft related crimes have gone down. Some of this increase is due to the war on drugs where we lock up non-violent offenders. However, the biggest cause for this increase in prison population is sentencing reform where we have increased the sentence of virtually all crimes to include more prison time, and the result is that despite crime going down our prison population is increasing. As a general rule America has the highest prison times for crimes compared to other modern countries for similar crimes. If you know anything about our justice system you will know that the recidivism rate in American prisons is notoriously high because our prisons are not designed for rehabilitation but teaching new inmates on how to be better criminals. You get out of prison, have a harder time finding a job, and going back to criminal activities becomes more and more appealing, and it is a vicious cycle, to say nothing of the plight minorities face. 

 

One of the biggest problems is the merging of private for profit prisons and the government. In a nutshell private for profit prisons bribe lawmakers for contracts to house prisoners making a profit in the exchange, and to keep the prison inmate population high they bribe the lawmakers to create and maintain laws that will keep the prison population high. One thing that the private prisons pour money into is keeping the war on drugs alive, and to stop immigration reform.

 

Can you demonstrate that anything I said on this issue is wrong?



#17 mike the wiz

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 03:20 PM

 

 

 Goku: In addition how is killing a nonbeliever, which you believe they end up in eternal Hell without a chance to escape, going to draw them to Christ? 

 

This is such an over-rated thing people say, I hear it bandied all over the internet like an accusation, "YOU BELIEVE people are going to hell", or, "how can anyone believe people are going to hell", as though the existence of hell is somehow linked to belief in it. Lol

 

Please tell me you guys understand that the biblical scriptures that speak of hell existed before I believed them and before I was even born.

 

So then there is an assumption all the blame is on the belief as though it is 100% invention. Fine if you believe the bible itself invention but the point is it is the scriptures which proclaim to be true, and if they are indeed true then even if nobody believes in hell this wouldn't preclude it's existence. It is not us declaring hell to be true, it is the scriptures which claim to be from God.

 

(This is just a side-comment of course, I know I haven't touched the beef on your sandwich, but it always strikes me as begging-the-question fallacy when unbelievers always mention belief when they mention hell, as though there is a granted assumption that it is all down to 100% invented belief, without proving it is.)

 

Another point about unbelievable things is that we see recorded in the bible the fact that even believers were told things they struggled to believe. Abraham and Sarah are recorded as laughing at God when He told them Sarah would have a baby because at that stage she was about 80 years old. Just because it seems to cross our conscience the thought of people we consider generally good people from our own limited perspective, in hell, won't mean that has any baring on it's existence or who goes there and if we do or don't believe it, this won't affect what God's will is for we have no power over God, it is God telling us it is true. But unbelievers it seems in their ignorance, almost as though they are saying, "you should believe hell isn't true, you should say the scriptures are wrong." In other words they are saying, "you shouldn't be Christian", and what is that, "should" based on? Can you point me to what atheist morality stands on? Oh yes I forgot, the world is an accident so morality doesn't ultimately exist = should.

 

Hell isn't something we even want to believe, so in particular it has nothing to do with belief because if it was down to a vote we wouldn't vote for it, but the point is it isn't down to a vote, what God says is true you either accept or don't, and God can't be wrong if He is there. But if you accept it that doesn't mean you like it, if anything it is an indication that the person has genuine faith, because they are accepting the scriptures even though they wouldn't want to accept for example, friends or family going to hell. So then doesn't that tell you that it is clear that people that believe in the bible and the gospel message and therefore hell, are doing so from genuine conviction, for it would be a lot easier and a big weight off the mind to just say, "I'm going to not believe in hell", but this shows we must be accepting hell because we genuinely believe there is no choice but to. 


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#18 nmp9463

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 08:54 PM

Might be off topic, but in regards to hell, I've recently been exploring the idea that hell isn't eternal. Jesus often talks about us needing to be saved from 'death' and those who aren't are 'cast into the fire.' One thing that always puzzled me even  before I started this investigation, was how Revelation talks about Satan and hell being 'cast into the lake of fire.' IDK. Maybe eternal punishment really isn't true, and there's an end for it at some point.



#19 Blitzking

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 12:16 AM

The first part of your post seems to imply the following...
(Correct me if I am wrong)
Goku WOULDN'T have done it that way AND / OR God SHOULDN'T have done it that way..
THEREFORE
God doesn't exist...
As Christians, The two most important words in our vocabulary other than "Love" are "Faith" and Trust" We have Faith in God, AND we Trust that he knows better then we do (And even Goku as well) and the plan he laid out is the best possible plan that could possibly have been carried out..
( Man has been guilty over the milinium of something called "Unintended Consequences") where he thinks his actions are the BEST when, in hindsight, they couldn't have been much WORSE... Over and over and over..


Not at all; we were talking about the problem of evil, and you acknowledged that my point would be valid if there wasn't a spirit realm, and so I asked how a spirit realm would solve the problem of evil. Can you elaborate on your point?

Your second answer was that God uses natural disasters to draw people to him, but this has significant flaws logically and theologically. In addition to what I said last time about it being a roundabout way to do things, logically it doesn't make any sense as both believers and unbelievers get hurt and killed in natural disasters. Believers, by virtue of being a believer, doesn't need to be reminded that God exists, and many of the victims of natural disasters are children with some too young to comprehend concepts like God and repentance. In addition how is killing a nonbeliever, which you believe they end up in eternal Hell without a chance to escape, going to draw them to Christ? Theologically, Jesus said (paraphrased) natural disasters will hit both believers and nonbelievers, so it isn't even internally consistent with the doctrine of Christianity.

You can say you have all the faith in the world when it comes to your God and the problem of evil, but that is more of an admission of not having an answer than anything else.

"First, I find it disturbing that you are more or less advocating anarchy because our justice system is not perfect."
What a headscratcher... I cant conceive how ANYONE could possibly come to that kind of insane conclusion based on what I wrote here...


In the context of the discussion. I said even we humans in our fallen state know that it is wrong to hurt others against their will with police being the embodiment of that ideal, as opposed to God who lets it happen. Your response was that the police have failed, and I took that as meaning we should instead follow your God's footsteps of doing absolutely nothing when someone is raped, murdered, or robbed - aka anarchy.

(You mentioned police stopping people from expressing their "free will" How has that been working out lately? Not too good I would say.. The jails are so crowded here in California that they are letting felons out early... Good luck with that...)


So we should abolish the police and not stop people from expressing their free will to harm others?

Of course we have many problems with the justice system, and below I highlight a few of them, but the chief point I am making here is that we instinctively know that it is the right thing to stop a murderer from murdering someone, yet your God is amazingly apathetic in real world practice. For all the faults of our justice system it is infinitely better than what your absent God has done.

"Prison Industrial Complex"
Been reading a lot of left wing garbage lately? LOL
Let me guess.. Salon, Mother Jones, Huff Post, Slate.. How am I doing?
Of course, Drugs, Rape, Murder, Fraud, Etc couldnt be part of the problem..


So facts are now left wing garbage?

We have a serious problem with our justice system. We have the highest number of incarcerations per capita of any country in the world. In the past few decades our prison population has exploded, yet the number of violent crimes and theft related crimes have gone down. Some of this increase is due to the war on drugs where we lock up non-violent offenders. However, the biggest cause for this increase in prison population is sentencing reform where we have increased the sentence of virtually all crimes to include more prison time, and the result is that despite crime going down our prison population is increasing. As a general rule America has the highest prison times for crimes compared to other modern countries for similar crimes. If you know anything about our justice system you will know that the recidivism rate in American prisons is notoriously high because our prisons are not designed for rehabilitation but teaching new inmates on how to be better criminals. You get out of prison, have a harder time finding a job, and going back to criminal activities becomes more and more appealing, and it is a vicious cycle, to say nothing of the plight minorities face.

One of the biggest problems is the merging of private for profit prisons and the government. In a nutshell private for profit prisons bribe lawmakers for contracts to house prisoners making a profit in the exchange, and to keep the prison inmate population high they bribe the lawmakers to create and maintain laws that will keep the prison population high. One thing that the private prisons pour money into is keeping the war on drugs alive, and to stop immigration reform.

Can you demonstrate that anything I said on this issue is wrong?

"Your response was that the police have failed, and I took that as meaning we should instead follow your God's footsteps of doing absolutely nothing when someone is raped, murdered, or robbed - aka anarchy."

You are way off base again Goku...

My God's footsteps are thus..

Love your neighbor
Be good Samaritans
Love your enemies
Do unto others...
Turn the other cheek..

If we followed my God's footsteps...

WE WOULDNT NEED POLICEMEN...

Instead, we brainwash the kids into believing that evolution is a "Scientific Fact" therefore Eliminating the Judeo Christian God of the Bible (Dont even try to tell me you can believe in both..)

THEREFORE

Christ's Mandates DONT apply.. And the predictable results all all around us..

Get the picture?

#20 Blitzking

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 02:33 AM

 
 
 Goku: In addition how is killing a nonbeliever, which you believe they end up in eternal Hell without a chance to escape, going to draw them to Christ? 

 
This is such an over-rated thing people say, I hear it bandied all over the internet like an accusation, "YOU BELIEVE people are going to hell", or, "how can anyone believe people are going to hell", as though the existence of hell is somehow linked to belief in it. Lol
 
Please tell me you guys understand that the biblical scriptures that speak of hell existed before I believed them and before I was even born.
 
So then there is an assumption all the blame is on the belief as though it is 100% invention. Fine if you believe the bible itself invention but the point is it is the scriptures which proclaim to be true, and if they are indeed true then even if nobody believes in hell this wouldn't preclude it's existence. It is not us declaring hell to be true, it is the scriptures which claim to be from God.
 
(This is just a side-comment of course, I know I haven't touched the beef on your sandwich, but it always strikes me as begging-the-question fallacy when unbelievers always mention belief when they mention hell, as though there is a granted assumption that it is all down to 100% invented belief, without proving it is.)
 
Another point about unbelievable things is that we see recorded in the bible the fact that even believers were told things they struggled to believe. Abraham and Sarah are recorded as laughing at God when He told them Sarah would have a baby because at that stage she was about 80 years old. Just because it seems to cross our conscience the thought of people we consider generally good people from our own limited perspective, in hell, won't mean that has any baring on it's existence or who goes there and if we do or don't believe it, this won't affect what God's will is for we have no power over God, it is God telling us it is true. But unbelievers it seems in their ignorance, almost as though they are saying, "you should believe hell isn't true, you should say the scriptures are wrong." In other words they are saying, "you shouldn't be Christian", and what is that, "should" based on? Can you point me to what atheist morality stands on? Oh yes I forgot, the world is an accident so morality doesn't ultimately exist = should.
 
Hell isn't something we even want to believe, so in particular it has nothing to do with belief because if it was down to a vote we wouldn't vote for it, but the point is it isn't down to a vote, what God says is true you either accept or don't, and God can't be wrong if He is there. But if you accept it that doesn't mean you like it, if anything it is an indication that the person has genuine faith, because they are accepting the scriptures even though they wouldn't want to accept for example, friends or family going to hell. So then doesn't that tell you that it is clear that people that believe in the bible and the gospel message and therefore hell, are doing so from genuine conviction, for it would be a lot easier and a big weight off the mind to just say, "I'm going to not believe in hell", but this shows we must be accepting hell because we genuinely believe there is no choice but to. 


Yup. Once again, Mikey logic rules the day!
Merry Christmas to you on that side of the pond.
No black pudding for Christmas Dinner sir! LOL..

"Meanwhile, their [evolutionists] unproven theories will continue to be accepted by the learned and the illiterate alike as absolute truth, and will be defended with a frantic intolerance that has a parallel only in the bigotry of the darkest Middle Ages. If one does not accept evolution as an infallible dogma, implicitly and without question, one is regarded as an unenlightened ignoramus or is merely ignored as an obscurantist or a naive, uncritical fundamentalist."

(Dr. Alfred Rehwinkel)




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