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Thou Shalt Not Lie


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#1 Fjuri

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 02:29 AM

Hey everyone,

 

I'm wondering what each and everyone of you (especially Christians, who hold this verse true) think about the meaning of this commandment.

 

So which of the following situations are ok, and which are not?

A: Peter has been playing video games while he should have been doing his homework. When his mom gets home, she sees the PC is turned on and she asks him if he has been playing video games. Peter says "no, but Pan my younger brother has" and she believes him.

B: Peter has been playing video games while he should have been doing his homework. When his mom gets home, she sees the PC is turned on and she asks him if he has been playing video games. Peter says "no" and she believes him.

C: Peter has been playing video games while he should have been doing his homework. When his mom gets home, he quickly shuts down the PC and erases all visible evidence of him playing video games. His mom doesn't suspect a thing and thus doesn't question it.

D: Peter has been playing video games while he should have been doing his homework. When his mom gets home, he quickly puts some Pan's stuff next to the PC. His mom now questions Pan instead.



#2 MarkForbes

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 04:51 AM

 

So which of the following situations are ok, and which are not?

A: Peter has been playing video games while he should have been doing his homework. When his mom gets home, she sees the PC is turned on and she asks him if he has been playing video games. Peter says "no, but Pan my younger brother has" and she believes him.

B: Peter has been playing video games while he should have been doing his homework. When his mom gets home, she sees the PC is turned on and she asks him if he has been playing video games. Peter says "no" and she believes him.

C: Peter has been playing video games while he should have been doing his homework. When his mom gets home, he quickly shuts down the PC and erases all visible evidence of him playing video games. His mom doesn't suspect a thing and thus doesn't question it.

D: Peter has been playing video games while he should have been doing his homework. When his mom gets home, he quickly puts some Pan's stuff next to the PC. His mom now questions Pan instead.

None, the bugger should have done his homework, plain and simple. No stories or deception operations please. 

 

The commandment itself reads Ex 20:16"You shall not bear false~witness against your neighbor. 

 

Of course this is aimed at not slandering your neighbor, meaning those close to you. Reason is obvious such lies poison the relationships between people. 

 

The examples are demonstrative on why people lie, because they try to dodge consequences of their behavior they think will be negative.

They illustrate nicely what methods people will use for deception. There is however problems with lies for those being lied to, as well as the liars. Those believing lies will make the wrong decisions, while lying becomes a habit for the liar becoming unable to distinguish fact from fiction. 



#3 mike the wiz

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 05:34 AM

 

 

Fjuri: I'm wondering which.(snip)..are...(snip)...true...

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#4 Fjuri

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 06:57 AM

After 2 non-answers...

What is your definition of a lie? Which of the cases above would you state involves a lie?

 

edit: Actually, Implied bad words not allowed. did more or less answer me, in the sense that he pointed out my quote about the commandment was wrong. But he did not address the issue what involves in a lie that is forbidden, which was my question.



#5 mike the wiz

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 10:57 AM

A and B are lies, C and D are deceptions. Your english is very good so I assume you know what a deception is though it might be a less common english word than, "lie". 

 

I'm not sure if I can answer to your satisfaction without explaining some Christian theology. With morality, it seems that what Christ was teaching us is that it's more to do with the motives of the heart than the technical breaking of a law, and that this was the deeper meaning of the law.

 

To show what I mean, Jesus said to the pharisees that even though they technically did not break Mosaic law by paying the tithe, they themselves didn't have the love of God. (He knew their motive was just to look clean and righteous and perfect even though inwardly they were not good people, which was a bad motive.)

 

Jesus Himself when asked the greatest commandment answered;

 

 

 

Matthew 22; Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets

 

So basically Jesus was saying if we were to put it into our own words, "all of you law-guys who think you are righteous and perfect and are happy to accuse other people, aren't as clean before God as you think just because you think you keep the law and understand it."

 

A: Motive - to have someone else blamed for something you did - A false witness and a sinful motive.

B: Motive - to escape punishment for doing something he knows would displease mom. He shouldn't have lied to his mum it is a lie but there isn't anything wrong in wanting to have fun as a child rather than working all day at school then having to do school again at home. So preferring to play games isn't a sin, lying to his mum isn't a major sin in this instance in that the motive isn't wicked like with A.

C: Motive - a deception rather than a lie, to basically not get told off for having fun. This type of deception I personally think is okay, he is using ingenuity to cover up the fact he had fun, using ingenuity to not be told off for having fun it seems to me neither are sins, it is not sin to play a game it is not sin to cover up the evidence of fun necessarily. I think the motive is basically not containing any wickedness in the heart.

D: Motive- to escape being told off however this time the motive of having someone else be punished in your place is again a bad motive as with A.

 

A is a lie and the motive of the heart is immoral. D is a deception and the motive of the heart is immoral. B is a lie but the motive of the heart isn't immoral, C is a deception but the motive of the heart is not immoral. 

 

I propose this AXIOM;

 

In a system where any immorality enters the system, avoidance of technical immorality is impossible but this doesn't mean where such technical failures exist there is an immoral motive.

 

For example, in WW2 if I had been in that war and lived in Germany I confess I would have hidden Jews from the nazis, if the nazis came knocking on the door, it is okay to tell the technical lie that there are no jews in my house. However, if earth itself was free of all immorality, a technical lie could never have a benevolent motive.

 

Think about it - in heaven would I need to hide Jews to begin with? No, the circumstance would never arise. Therefore the technical lie of saying they are not in my house, only arises because there is already an immorality in the system, and that immorality is that people have chosen to murder Jewish people. In heaven there is no such motives, so there could never be a reason to technically lie.

 

For example if I was in heaven playing snooker when God wanted me to be doing something else. If I was in heaven and I wanted something somebody else owned I might pretend I did not steal it. If I was in heaven and someone insulted me and God found out and got angry, I wouldn't tell God it was them.

 

Notice the crossed out events, no such events would ever happen in heaven. So then the only reason an immoral thing can turn into a moral thing is if the system is firstly contaminated by some form of immorality. 

 

CONCLUSION: Our biggest mistake is to assume that the commands God is giving us come from an earthly source. They come from a heavenly place where there are no moral dilemmas. 

 

This is my opinion on the matter. I am not saying I am 100% correct, this is just my take on it. I don't value my own opinion on this, greatly, which is one reason I don't like to give these type of opinions and reasonings because I myself am not that confident that I  am correct about each instance (a,b,c,d) sometimes morality and doing what is right, can be confusing in a complicated, polluted system. I may well be correct to some degree, but I'm not sure - I think it's a much better idea to read what Jesus said, not what I say but I hope my answer at least makes sense.


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#6 Goku

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 07:54 PM

C: Motive - a deception rather than a lie, to basically not get told off for having fun. This type of deception I personally think is okay, he is using ingenuity to cover up the fact he had fun, using ingenuity to not be told off for having fun it seems to me neither are sins, it is not sin to play a game it is not sin to cover up the evidence of fun necessarily. I think the motive is basically not containing any wickedness in the heart.

 

C is a deception but the motive of the heart is not immoral.

 

It is still a sin to disobey your parents (even if it isn't an explicit lie), therefore it is immoral and he deserves death.

 

I once asked a group of evangelicals (we were acquaintances/friends), who were saying how lying is always a sin, about the WWII and the Jews scenario, and they said that it was still a sin to lie to the Nazis. From their perspective you are supposed to tell them the truth, accept that they will kill you and the Jews, and that it will all be okay because you will be right with God.

 

You say it would be a technical immorality to lie to the Nazis, but, in essence, that immorality is superseded by the value placed on the life of an innocent. I agree, and I would offer up the perspective that in such a scenario there is no technical immorality to consider.

 

I think many Christian miss out by not having any understanding of Judaism. In Judaism life is most precious, and when it comes to life and death scenarios it is actually immoral to not break other morals or laws that would lead to unnecessary death. For example we all know Jews aren't allowed to do much of anything on the Sabbath, but it would be immoral for a Jew to refuse help in a life and death situation on the grounds that he can't help because it is the Sabbath. When Jesus 'broke' the Sabbath to heal people he never actually went against Jewish law as it is properly understood. Life is paramount, and supersedes all other law. It is a shame that such conviction from Judaism has not been preserved in Christendom as a whole.

 

As for lying the 10 commandments version is specifically not to bear false witness, but both lying and deception are considered sin and thus immoral in both Judaism and Christianity - unless superseded by something greater which would depend on specific situations.



#7 piasan

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 08:46 PM

I pretty much agree with Mark and mike.

 

As you pointed out, all 4 involve disobedience of his parents and therefore are not "OK."

 

A and B are also clearly lies.  Since D is clearly designed to divert blame to another, it would also fall under the commandment for lies.

 

C, while deceptive wouldn't fall under the commandment for lying.  While it would be admirable to do so, nothing in the requirement requires us to "out" ourselves.

 

 

It is still a sin to disobey your parents (even if it isn't an explicit lie), therefore it is immoral and he deserves death.

 Perhaps under OT law. 

 

 

I once asked a group of evangelicals (we were acquaintances/friends), who were saying how lying is always a sin, about the WWII and the Jews scenario, and they said that it was still a sin to :lie to the Nazis. From their perspective you are supposed to tell them the truth, accept that they will kill you and the Jews, and that it will all be okay because you will be right with God.

Sounds like the Spanish friars.  When informed the Conquistadors were killing Indians who had converted to Christianity, their response was: Kill them all and let God sort them out.

 

 

I think many Christian miss out by not having any understanding of Judaism. In Judaism life is most precious, and when it comes to life and death scenarios it is actually immoral to not break other morals or laws that would lead to unnecessary death. For example we all know Jews aren't allowed to do much of anything on the Sabbath, but it would be immoral for a Jew to refuse help in a life and death situation on the grounds that he can't help because it is the Sabbath. When Jesus 'broke' the Sabbath to heal people he never actually went against Jewish law as it is properly understood. Life is paramount, and supersedes all other law. It is a shame that such conviction from Judaism has not been preserved in Christendom as a whole.

Kind of like the federal aviation regulations for flight....

Rule #1 says these rules apply to flying aircraft in the US.

Rule #2 says to fly an aircraft, you will have a pilots license.

Rule #3 says that in an emergency you may disregard any rule after this one.



#8 Goku

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 10:31 PM

Perhaps under OT law.

 

I was thinking more of Romans 6:23; the wages of sin is death, and the general Christian theology that if you commit even the smallest sin you deserve death.

 

As I understand it the Hebrew law of stoning to death your children for disobedience was meant for extreme cases, and not for minor offenses in an otherwise obedient child.

 

Sounds like the Spanish friars.  When informed the Conquistadors were killing Indians who had converted to Christianity, their response was: Kill them all and let God sort them out.

 

I can see why that theology could have appeal. However, just my view, if God created us and all it would seem that the experience of this world is highly important in some way, and even under the pretense of eternal Heaven afterwards it would seem that we should not be apathetic about a life ending.

 

Kind of like the federal aviation regulations for flight....

Rule #1 says these rules apply to flying aircraft in the US.

Rule #2 says to fly an aircraft, you will have a pilots license.

Rule #3 says that in an emergency you may disregard any rule after this one.

 

Very similar, although under Orthodox Judaism there are rules about how to break the rules; the motif being that you shouldn't break any more rules than you have to, and break the rules in the least offensive way possible. But like with piloting aircraft, the first priority is getting through the emergency with all else being secondary.
 



#9 piasan

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 12:38 AM

 

Perhaps under OT law.

 

I was thinking more of Romans 6:23; the wages of sin is death, and the general Christian theology that if you commit even the smallest sin you deserve death.

As the citation references eternal life, I suspect the death spoken of is spiritual, not physical death.



#10 Fjuri

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 06:35 AM

After 2 non-answers...

What is your definition of a lie? Which of the cases above would you state involves a lie?

 

edit: Actually, Implied bad words not allowed. did more or less answer me, in the sense that he pointed out my quote about the commandment was wrong. But he did not address the issue what involves in a lie that is forbidden, which was my question.

For the record, the "implied bad words not allowed" were the abriviated name of MarkForbes. Didn't notice it until now. :D

 

...

 

A: Motive - to have someone else blamed for something you did - A false witness and a sinful motive.

B: Motive - to escape punishment for doing something he knows would displease mom. He shouldn't have lied to his mum it is a lie but there isn't anything wrong in wanting to have fun as a child rather than working all day at school then having to do school again at home. So preferring to play games isn't a sin, lying to his mum isn't a major sin in this instance in that the motive isn't wicked like with A.

C: Motive - a deception rather than a lie, to basically not get told off for having fun. This type of deception I personally think is okay, he is using ingenuity to cover up the fact he had fun, using ingenuity to not be told off for having fun it seems to me neither are sins, it is not sin to play a game it is not sin to cover up the evidence of fun necessarily. I think the motive is basically not containing any wickedness in the heart.

D: Motive- to escape being told off however this time the motive of having someone else be punished in your place is again a bad motive as with A.

 

A is a lie and the motive of the heart is immoral. D is a deception and the motive of the heart is immoral. B is a lie but the motive of the heart isn't immoral, C is a deception but the motive of the heart is not immoral. 

 

...

Thanks for your answers. As to how it relates to the evolution vs creation debate is about the "lie" of nature. Or rather as you might put it, the "deception" of nature.

 

If the materialistic understanding of the world contradicts the Bible, isn't nature basically a deception by God?

If we take for instance the hydroplate theory has as a flaw that in a materialistic understanding of the theory (the earth would boil). A response would be "but God would know how to solve the flaw". Even if that is true, the fact remains that all the evidence points in another direction.

So I would think this would be a type C deception. At least as I understand it.



#11 Blitzking

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 03:15 PM

C: Motive - a deception rather than a lie, to basically not get told off for having fun. This type of deception I personally think is okay, he is using ingenuity to cover up the fact he had fun, using ingenuity to not be told off for having fun it seems to me neither are sins, it is not sin to play a game it is not sin to cover up the evidence of fun necessarily. I think the motive is basically not containing any wickedness in the heart.
 
C is a deception but the motive of the heart is not immoral.

 
It is still a sin to disobey your parents (even if it isn't an explicit lie), therefore it is immoral and he deserves death.
 
I once asked a group of evangelicals (we were acquaintances/friends), who were saying how lying is always a sin, about the WWII and the Jews scenario, and they said that it was still a sin to lie to the Nazis. From their perspective you are supposed to tell them the truth, accept that they will kill you and the Jews, and that it will all be okay because you will be right with God.
 
You say it would be a technical immorality to lie to the Nazis, but, in essence, that immorality is superseded by the value placed on the life of an innocent. I agree, and I would offer up the perspective that in such a scenario there is no technical immorality to consider.
 
I think many Christian miss out by not having any understanding of Judaism. In Judaism life is most precious, and when it comes to life and death scenarios it is actually immoral to not break other morals or laws that would lead to unnecessary death. For example we all know Jews aren't allowed to do much of anything on the Sabbath, but it would be immoral for a Jew to refuse help in a life and death situation on the grounds that he can't help because it is the Sabbath. When Jesus 'broke' the Sabbath to heal people he never actually went against Jewish law as it is properly understood. Life is paramount, and supersedes all other law. It is a shame that such conviction from Judaism has not been preserved in Christendom as a whole.
 
As for lying the 10 commandments version is specifically not to bear false witness, but both lying and deception are considered sin and thus immoral in both Judaism and Christianity - unless superseded by something greater which would depend on specific situations.



"I think many Christian miss out by not having any understanding of Judaism"

Not at all.. It is the Jews that miss out by not having any understanding of AND rejecting their Messiah..

We dont need Judaism.. We have all we ever need with the rock of our Salvation...

24Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because its foundation was on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.…The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell—and great was its collapse" Matt :7

#12 Blitzking

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 03:26 PM

After 2 non-answers...
What is your definition of a lie? Which of the cases above would you state involves a lie?
 
edit: Actually, Implied bad words not allowed. did more or less answer me, in the sense that he pointed out my quote about the commandment was wrong. But he did not address the issue what involves in a lie that is forbidden, which was my question.

For the record, the "implied bad words not allowed" were the abriviated name of MarkForbes. Didn't notice it until now. :D
 

...
 
A: Motive - to have someone else blamed for something you did - A false witness and a sinful motive.
B: Motive - to escape punishment for doing something he knows would displease mom. He shouldn't have lied to his mum it is a lie but there isn't anything wrong in wanting to have fun as a child rather than working all day at school then having to do school again at home. So preferring to play games isn't a sin, lying to his mum isn't a major sin in this instance in that the motive isn't wicked like with A.
C: Motive - a deception rather than a lie, to basically not get told off for having fun. This type of deception I personally think is okay, he is using ingenuity to cover up the fact he had fun, using ingenuity to not be told off for having fun it seems to me neither are sins, it is not sin to play a game it is not sin to cover up the evidence of fun necessarily. I think the motive is basically not containing any wickedness in the heart.
D: Motive- to escape being told off however this time the motive of having someone else be punished in your place is again a bad motive as with A.
 
A is a lie and the motive of the heart is immoral. D is a deception and the motive of the heart is immoral. B is a lie but the motive of the heart isn't immoral, C is a deception but the motive of the heart is not immoral. 
 
...

Thanks for your answers. As to how it relates to the evolution vs creation debate is about the "lie" of nature. Or rather as you might put it, the "deception" of nature.
 
If the materialistic understanding of the world contradicts the Bible, isn't nature basically a deception by God?
If we take for instance the hydroplate theory has as a flaw that in a materialistic understanding of the theory (the earth would boil). A response would be "but God would know how to solve the flaw". Even if that is true, the fact remains that all the evidence points in another direction.
So I would think this would be a type C deception. At least as I understand it.


"If the materialistic understanding of the world contradicts the Bible, isn't nature basically a deception by God?"

So now you want to blame God because materialists embrace stupidity just in order to pretend that God doesnt exist?

You want to blame God because materialists want to pretend that Red Blood Cells can last 100 Million Years just to make their fairytales come true? Where is the deception? NOT with God!!!

You want to blame God because materialists want to pretend that over the course of "500 Million Years" While SOME Jellyfish were evolving into a Man, OTHER Jellyfish were evolving into a JELLYFISH just to make their fairytales come true? Where is the deception? NOT with God!!!

So

#13 mike the wiz

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 05:03 AM

 

 

Goku: I once asked a group of evangelicals (we were acquaintances/friends), who were saying how lying is always a sin, about the WWII and the Jews scenario, and they said that it was still a sin to lie to the Nazis. From their perspective you are supposed to tell them the truth, accept that they will kill you and the Jews, and that it will all be okay because you will be right with God.

 

Yes but asking a person that is a Christian or says they are one for an answer doesn't mean they give the correct Christian answer. You could ask five Christians the same question and depending on the question you may get different answers depending on how educated they are in the bible, how much theology they know, etc...notice that when I answered Fjuri's post in this thread I had a fair amount of doubt in what I was saying, but if a bold evangelist states such things as though he has heard it from the Lord himself in person, and is confident about such an answer over such a sensitive morality-issue then I personally would say those evangelists could do with learning about the Dunning-Krueger effect for it might do them some good.

 

I also think anyone who is willing to let people get murdered is ignoring what Jesus said about the greatest commandment, to love God and your neighbour. Note that Jesus did say there was a greater command meaning the other commands were less important, which heavily implies that what you and Piasan said is correct, that a more important command supersedes a less important command if there are mitigating circumstances. To let people be murdered so as to pretend to yourself you remain sinless when you know you have already told lies in the past, is particularly wicked, so are your friends saying they would prefer to tell the truth and let people be murdered to be right with God, having at some time in their Christian walk, told a lie for example when their wives asked them what they were doing in the bathroom and they said, "brushing my teeth" instead of telling the truth which was that they were masturbating over a picture of a 90 year old p*rn girl? ;) 

 

What will they say when they stand before the Lord? "Yes, I am willing to tell a lie about mastrubating if it embarasses me but I am absolutely fine with having nazis pump Jews full of led if it means I keep your commands."

 

So those evangelists in my opinion (and I am certainly no biblical expert), are indulging in legalism. Christ was far more compassionate and had far deeper, meaningful teachings than such a simplistic interpretation which is legalistic and no doubt of a religious spirit. Don't forget Jesus had a chance as a person without sin, to stone the woman but He said, "let he without sin cast the first stone." So I find it absurd to believe Jesus wouldn't understand a technical lie to save people from murder if He wasn't even willing to see a genuine sin punished. Jesus knew that all people had sin, to worry over a technical lie, is false loyalty to the old law. The evangelists were pretending to represent moral perfection, but Goku your friends have sinned, so would they not risk a white lie to save lives? To me that is very worrying, it makes me greatly doubt the integrity of their character or at the very least believe your friends were the type of Christians that seldom open the bible or study it.

 

(The term, "religious spirit" in Christian circles, doesn't mean what it would mean outside of Christianity. Outside of Christianity anyone with faith in anything is religious, but what we mean when we say this, within Christianity, is that a person is taking the scriptures and giving them a false strictness, saying we must religiously obey, at all times, as though in reality Christians are perfect sinless robots. The bible actually says we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, letting people get murdered so we avoid trouble for telling a lie, is to be a spineless, loveless, incompassionate jellyfish, with no integrity, who is spreading a false gospel about as thin as butter on toast, if that gospel is that we have to become technically sinless robots even if it means letting people get pumped full of led. 

 

"WRONGO, idiots." - The Grinch. (Okay so I implanted, "idiots", he doesn't actually say that in the movie) :D



#14 Goku

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 12:01 PM

"I think many Christian miss out by not having any understanding of Judaism"


Not at all.. It is the Jews that miss out by not having any understanding of AND rejecting their Messiah..

We dont need Judaism.. We have all we ever need with the rock of our Salvation...

24Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because its foundation was on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.…The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell—and great was its collapse" Matt :7

 

 

You do realize that your Messiah is a Jewish rabbi, right?
 

"I have come not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it." - Jesus

 

I am not saying Christians should convert to Judaism, only that it would be helpful for Christians to have some knowledge of Judaism, especially since they quote the Tanakh whenever it suits them.






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