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What Do You Think Of Little Green Men Or Grey Aliens?


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#1 mike the wiz

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 07:54 AM

In particular this topic focuses on the probability of little green men or grey-aliens existing, if we grant for the sake of the discussion, that macro evolution occurred on earth.

 

What amazes me is how many evolutionists there are that don't understand their own theory. Now obviously a lot of them don't believe in grey aliens or little green men or some type of man-type alien.

 

But for those who consider them a possibility, the anatomy of a human is supposed to only exist because it is modified from a more ape-like anatomy which in turn is modified from a quadrupedal anatomy, which in turn stemmed from a pentadactyl forelimb which stemmed from vertebrates.

 

So what I first have to say is that if it is even possible to get a man-like alien anatomy, it seems the only correct design for a bipedal person of some sort, is that of a man's anatomy, which evolution would say only exists because it is modified from an ape-like anatomy, and we only have bones because they happen to have evolved in fish.

 

So then it seems to me the probability of aliens existing which seems so plausible to conspiracy theorists (UFOlogists), is rather small. Who is to even say that you would not also need on an alien world, firstly to have some kind of ape by which you could modify a more man-like bipedalism?

 

So from my perspective it seems more likely that alien life if it existed, might resemble snot, rather than men travelling in flying saucers with big heads and everything else pretty much similar to man's anatomy.

 

Furthermore biochemistry would also be unique to earth. Why is there an assumption for example, that an alien would have eukaryotic cells? Who is to life would come in the form of cells with DNA code?

 

Doesn't is seem more likely that the aliens aren't really aliens? If little greys exist, they shouldn't. So my question is, are they what they appear to be, if they exist, and if they do, could they be a trick to get people to believe in aliens given it seems more likely aliens would resemble snot?



#2 keysi

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 12:40 PM

I think the concept of wee green/grey men is all fiction mate. The type of fiction for entertainment and turning a profit. Deception it is not. :yoda:

 

I doubt any astrobiologists ( awesome career, what I'm aiming for  :D  ) expect to find anything remotely humanoid. They're looking for possible life on the scale of single cells or just markers indicating organic chemistry. 

 

 

That said, I'm fairly certain Mars Attacks was a documentary. About the 50s.


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#3 mike the wiz

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 01:54 PM

Long time no see, Keysi! Merry Christmas baba. :D



#4 keysi

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 02:40 PM

Cheers bud, you too. 



#5 Goku

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 07:35 PM

Welcome back Keysi.

 

I am certain aliens exist, but whether the Greys are visiting Earth and abducting people is something else entirely. Most UFO-type stories are clearly misidentifications or hoaxes beyond a reasonable doubt, but a small percentage are intriguing, which is only further spookified with the Fermi paradox.

 

As Keysi alluded to most 'aliens' would be single celled type organisms, and for the most part what these aliens would be like is largely speculation. The humanoid aliens in pop culture is a side effect of human psychology being self-centered and subconsciously imagining that if aliens exist they must look like us. We do this to animals too in many cartoons; we modify the animal to have a humanoid look.

 

That said I think there are some things we can say about hypothetical alien life. The first is that it is probably carbon based rather than silicone based or some other element. Carbon is the fourth most abundant element in the universe, after hydrogen, helium, and oxygen. While silicone has the same number of valence electrons as carbon, which is why people have speculated that silicone life may exist, carbon's electronegativity is higher which means it retains bonded electrons easier; it is easier for a carbon backbone based molecule to get and retain large molecular structures required for life. A carbon based molecule is also more resistant to elemental factors like temperature than a silicone one.

 

The chirality of molecules, left or right handed, can be either or. It doesn't really change anything in the big picture. I've seen some stuff where the left handed amino acids may have been slightly favored in our planet due to various factors of solar bombardment of amino acids inside meteors, and if the same factors are present elsewhere there might be a trend towards left handed amino acids in alien life. One interesting thing to note is that if aliens have the opposite chirality then we would not be ideal sources of food for them. As an aside in a multiverse scenario where a universe was largely made up of anti-matter rather than 'normal' matter, you can have entire worlds and aliens made up of anti-matter just like how our universe is for 'normal' matter.

 

DNA was not the first molecule of inheritance here on Earth, and who knows what an alien planet would come up with. If RNA world is basically correct we may presume that an RNA type molecule might present itself; if something is favored by chemistry/physics then statistically we would expect it to come up more often than other choices, and RNA or RNA like molecules may be this since it has both enzymatic properties and informational storage properties while being less complex than something like DNA. But this is speculation. Even if the function is analogous, it could have a completely different type of backbone from the phosphate-sugar backbone, or even different nitrogenous bases, to say nothing of the 'genetic code'.

 

The biochemistry and organelle structure of alien life is up for grabs, but I would guess that even if the specifics are vastly different (which it probably is) much of the same functions will be done through analogous structures. I mean you still need a barrier of some sort to distinguish the lifeform from the outside world, i.e. some sort of cell membrane. You still need a way to get nutrients, metabolize it, and excrete waste. And so on.

 

One interesting avenue of thought is to look at life on Earth and see if anything appears to be statistically favored due to underlying physics, chemistry, or biology. The common example is eyes. The macro structure of eyes have evolved separately many times on Earth, and eyes are obviously quite useful. If life exists on the surface of a planet or moon then there is reason to think that a likely trait would be some kind of eye-like organ. Even single celled organisms on Earth have organelles analogous to eyes. One interesting development in astrobiology is the idea of life in sub-terrain areas. In such an environment we may not expect eyes. Another example would be how various aquatic organisms have developed a certain shape 'designed' for efficiently moving in the water; shorter length of the body perpendicular to the direction of motion and longer in the direction of motion to lessen the amount of energy needed to move through the water - think of a shark swimming through the water. So we may expect that multicellular aliens living and moving in water (the most abundant compound in the universe) has one or more clades that capitalize on this through natural selection because the design is efficient.

 

Thinking about alien life is certainly interesting. Of course much speculation is involved because we have never confirmed alien life, and we only have one example of a planet with life, Earth.



#6 mike the wiz

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 05:23 AM

 

 

Goku: As Keysi alluded to most 'aliens' would be single celled type organisms, and for the most part what these aliens would be like is largely speculation. The humanoid aliens in pop culture is a side effect of human psychology being self-centered and subconsciously imagining that if aliens exist they must look like us. We do this to animals too in many cartoons; we modify the animal to have a humanoid look.

 

Yes humans do this when they commit anthropomorphism and anthropopathism, we also innately recognise patterns (paradeolia). Also another thing to consider is sleep paralysis. In other words Goku, we didn't really need to be told bears shi* in the woods because we know of all of the things that surround such claims. We here all will likely know the chances of aliens visiting us are zero because they highly likely don't exist. We also have to consider what Einstein said about increasing mass infinitely beyond the speed of light, etc... 

 

But one thing about your post I would mention is that obviously Keysi might be tempted into thinking everything you said is plausible, when in reality it's obvious that with all of the chicken-and-egg scenarios in nature, and within the cell for example, you simply aren't going to get anything useful. Even if you could somehow create a protein because homo-chiral amino acids occurred by a meteor which is preposterously simplistic thinking in comparison to the sophistication of the cell, we also have to consider the now thousands of experiments performed in an attempt to "repeat" as it where, the conditions of life coming from non-life. All of that data counts as evidence against life creating itself, when we think how able scientists are to manipulate all kinds of conditions. By now they would have come up with something, if they are intelligent, knowledgeable manipulators, whereas chance-happenings on planets, are not deliberate attempts to create life. An agent deliberately designing something, gives a far, far greater chance of something being designed than random chance, and I don't believe you truly are an idiot that doesn't know the difference, for I don't recall you ever arguing that a sand castle was created by wind and wave. So then it is is special pleading to claim chance abiogenesis would stand a better chance of creating a sophisticated, designed cell, than some random assembling which is accidental and therefore wouldn't have any goal to design anything. (please tell me you understand 2 add 2, and therefore there is hope for you?)

 

So while I said we can take evolution for granted in this thread, that is fine, but I don't think that can go as far as making 100% speculation seem like it is science fact, and I find in most articles about alien life on the net, that is the problem, they treat it as though many billions of planets is all you need to get life. 

 

By analogy imagine an abandoned factory for china, where there are 10 million teapots and china sets, would we now argue that it is inevitable that because there are so many of them, that surely one of the cups must be filled with tea or coffee?

 

This is an illusion, because intelligent designers get you tea. So with your homo-chirality example, I could argue that tea somehow got made if some water was spilled by accident into a cup that happened to have a teabag in it. Who knows, perhaps the milk and sugar was then added by some other accident. Just mentally conjuring scenarios like this, doesn't mean this is how tea and coffee occur. Just making these scenarios SOUND like scientific fact, won't mean they are. For example what force created the tea-bag? Oh well here we go again with a science-SOUNDING story, perhaps the bag with the tea-leaves in it, only has tea-leaves because all the loose leaves blew away in the breeze leaving them left in the bag, then the bag somehow sealed itself. This is what the majority of scientists likely accept as some sort of scenario!

 

(see, not even CLOSE to clever, because they basically leave out plausibility, and treat it as though it is a magic-evolution, which happens no matter what the facts show to the contrary.)

 

This post is for Keysi, I just don't want him to be fooled into thinking that the problem of abiogenesis is solved, when all of the science so far, inductively, all of the evidence - points to life not being able to form naturally. So please don't use this thread as a launch pad for preaching your ideology, Goku, by inserting claims that abiogenesis is some simple problem we can overlook. LOL

 

 

Moreover, the amino acids produced were in any case what is known as a racemic (50:50) mixture of left and right-handed forms, whereas all living plants and animals can only use left-handed amino acids to make proteins. (Left and right hand refers to the fact that the amino acids, though chemically identical in their ability to form peptides, are mirror images of one another, like our left and right hands. An exception is the simplest amino acid, glycine.) If amino acids of the wrong type are included in the chain during manufacture, life’s proteins cannot fold properly into the shapes needed to function. Life therefore requires what is known as an ‘optically pure’ supply of solely left-handed amino acids, whereas chemistry by itself, following the laws of chance, will always produce a racemic mixture. Moreover, all sugars in DNA and RNA must be ‘right-handed’, otherwise the vital informational double helix could not form.6

Ken says, “Evolutionists argue that given sufficient time proteins could form by chance. But, for a protein of just the minimum 100 amino acids (many are tens of thousands long), for all to be left-handed, and assuming that it did not matter which order they appeared in, it’s like flipping a coin 100 times and resulting in all heads. The number is astronomical.”

Indeed so—it is one chance in about 1030.7,8 Numbers like this are too hard to imagine. So one comparison used by CMI speakers is guessing a 30-digit PIN correctly first time.9

The ‘primordial soup’ chemical synthesis of functional proteins and enzymes by chance is not plausible when the uniqueness of God’s special creation is examined.

But in fact, the order is crucial at most positions in the chain, and for each position chance has to choose from 20 amino acids, which makes the problem stupendously greater. In all proteins, the order is crucial, some more than others. E.g. calmodulin, the ubiquitous calcium-binding protein, has almost all of its 140–150 amino acids ‘conserved’ (the same in all organisms). So if we generously (to the evolutionists) assume we have a pool of 20 left-handed amino acids, the chances of all 140 amino acids to be right is about one chance in 10182—like guessing a 182-digit PIN.8 And all one would have, even then, is a lonely protein, useless without all sorts of other proteins and other machinery of life

 

No offense to Goku, Keysi. As an amateur with some basic science background he isn't a stupid man I will concede, but you have to beware of the fact that this is someone who swallows any argument that will favour life coming about on it's own and sometimes I have noticed that he will hear something like the meteor example but will not search out all of the problems. I have noticed this many times now, he will stick to a story he has been told of how evolution could have happened, some speculative story telling about how a problem can be solved, then he will tend to biasedly treat that story as though it is factual truth and ignore any problems with that story. It doesn't seem scientific to me, to treat RANCID SPECULATION as fact.

 

Saying meteors can strike earth and arrange folding proteins somehow, is like saying you can throw stones at a soft-rock house and eventually it will turn into Michaelangelo's David. 

 

:rotfl3:

 

(In other words, Goku hasn't appreciated just how specifically complex, life is. (specified complexity). In actual fact a cell must have DNA to code the protein and the DNA must have the protein, there are also enzymes and guiding chaparone proteins etc...there is nothing in nature which can create a cell, as science has shown. Hundreds of billions of planets won't provide a design for the cell, all of the designer features in a cell, according to inductive logic, are backed by 100% of the data which shows that such sophisticated features only come from designers. What are those features life is over-qualified in? Specified complexity, contingency planning, information (no code ever known to be created without intelligence), correct materials, goals, viability, clever solutions to obscure, unique problems, etc...



#7 what if

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 10:20 AM

In particular this topic focuses on the probability of little green men or grey-aliens existing, if we grant for the sake of the discussion, that macro evolution occurred on earth.

interesting subject.

in my opinion, humanoid intelligence could have emerged in any multicellular organism.

in fact, spaceborn creatures would most likely have a metabolism that makes use of cosmic rays and other types of space debris.

i believe that deep space human endeavors could happen if we learned how to convert "space junk" to energy.
a photosynthesis type of metabolism that uses magnesium instead of iron in the blood cells.

#8 Goku

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 04:00 PM

Yes humans do this when they commit anthropomorphism and anthropopathism, we also innately recognise patterns (paradeolia). Also another thing to consider is sleep paralysis. In other words Goku, we didn't really need to be told bears shi* in the woods because we know of all of the things that surround such claims. We here all will likely know the chances of aliens visiting us are zero because they highly likely don't exist. We also have to consider what Einstein said about increasing mass infinitely beyond the speed of light, etc...

 

I am sorry my two sentences on the subject bored you. One interesting thing on sleep paralysis is that it could be the explanation for why many people centuries ago claimed to be visited by demons. My understanding is that many of the historical accounts we have about demonic visits are eerily similar to alien abduction stories today thought to be the result of sleep paralysis.

 

The Fermi paradox demonstrates that faster than light travel in order for aliens to visit us is not held up by the facts.

 

As for the rest of your post I was not trying to demonstrate or solve abiogenesis, and I honestly don't know how you thought that I was. As you said we can take evolution for granted, and I assume that includes abiogenesis, in order to speculate on what alien life might be like. Thus I speculated, and I thought I made it clear that I was speculating based on known science.

 

The meteor example was speculating on the question of what chirality an alien species might have, assuming it has a similar kind of biochemistry. It appears that homo chirality is required as a matter of practicality. While a racemate is what you get in standard laboratory experiments, I recall reading a paper where they found that solar particles had a tendency to favor left handed amino acids (I don't remember the specifics), and if this happened in a meteor (and amino acids have been found in meteors) then other factors inside the meteor can have a cascading effect turning a slight imbalance in the chirality ratio into a larger imbalance. This may be part of the explanation for why life on Earth uses left handed amino acids, and I speculate that other solar systems might experience the same kind of thing which may result in alien lifeforms statistically favoring left handed amino acids. It is speculation of course, but it's an interesting topic to speculate on.

That's it. It was not an attempt to demonstrate the formation of complex polymers folding into specific tertiary and quaternary structures resulting in life or anything like that.
 






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