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#1 KillurBluff

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Posted 20 March 2018 - 05:00 PM

              hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEZCPYBEIoBSFXyq4          hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEZCPYBEIoBSFXyq4      hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEZCPYBEIoBSFXyq4    These above portray many Biblical topics most of us seem to not spend much time discussing, Nor had i much exposure to in church. Yet many secularist openly wish to bring up these topics.   These, i feel, should be openly discussed and taken into account, for the simply fact that these are not so clearly understood by many and sometimes  Christians change the subject. Or most egregiously people are shunned when asked about. In our Biblical account we know Cain, after killing Abel, married and built a city called Enoch after his own son Enoch (Genesis 4:16-17). Now we must account for Cains wife, as to whom she was and where she came from. Now for one of the most controversial is that of the Nephilim, the tribes of Biblical Giants. The Bible shows many of these given names such as the Raphaim, Zuzim, Emim, Horites, Amorites and many others. Our Bible also tells us how they came about, Genesis 6:4. The next is that of Ezekiel's Wheel, which is mentioned in the 1st chapter of Ezekiel and that which the Lord shown him and that which the Lord had him do. Then the 'Flying Scroll' as in Zeckariah 5:1.

 



#2 mike the wiz

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 04:46 AM

"Where did Cain get his wife?" Is probably one of the oldest questions about the bible. :D The answer is found in Genesis itself, that Adam and Eve had more children. In today's world it wouldn't work, the genetics would make them deformed. There are two factors that enable this to make sense;

 

1. The first people lived for a very long time, pregnancy for Eve could have meant siblings where the brother is 75 years older than his sister or whatever. Cain could have met his wife when there was a lot more people.

 

2. There would be no mutational load hypothetically. (i.e. Adam was not a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy.) This would allow incest to be viable.

 

As for giants, if the average size of a man back then was IIRC, about five foot six inches tall, even a person of six foot ten would certainly seem ginormous. Size is relative, if people were not used to seeing a man over six foot tall by much it is probable that if they did they would give them such a name.



#3 wibble

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 05:39 AM

The answer is found in Genesis itself, that Adam and Eve had more children.;[/font]


Does it actually say that ? I don't remember reading about other children
 

This would allow incest to be viable.[/font]


Even if it was viable how would you feel if your only choice for procreation was with your sister ?


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#4 mike the wiz

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 06:53 AM

 

 

Wibble: Even if it was viable how would you feel if your only choice for procreation was with your sister ?

 

But I don't think we're evaluating how unpleasant or taboo this is today, I think the question pertains more to the matter of evaluating whether it was feasible/possible

 

From our perspective now, it's unthinkable of course, however if humanity did start with two people, logically the only way to get more is for procreation with siblings initially. So at that time, that would not have been wrong or taboo. 

 

I suspect part of the answer is that the first two people would have had many children, so that probability-wise, the chances are there would be attraction between them if there is a great variety.  What is "wrong" about this really, when we think of it logically, God made creatures called humans and the way to multiply them from two was this method. Natural disgust doesn't necessarily mean immorality is present.

 

So if you are asking, "how would I feel?" It depends, in real life I have two sisters, back then if I had 45 of them what are the chances I might like one of them? Probably good. From Cain's perspective if he had never met her, as she wasn't even born when he left then that would likely further reduce the disgust-factor. Who knows, it doesn't give much information, but it does say they had children and that Eve was, "the mother of all living", so it must also mean Cain's wife. "After he begot Seth the days of Adam were 800 years and he had sons and daughters."



#5 KillurBluff

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 08:27 AM

 

The answer is found in Genesis itself, that Adam and Eve had more children.;[/font]


Does it actually say that ? I don't remember reading about other children
 

This would allow incest to be viable.[/font]


Even if it was viable how would you feel if your only choice for procreation was with your sister ?

 

The Bible, in its descriptions of a vast amount of particular events leaves out many intricate details. Just as in Hebrews 11:3 the Biblical description does not say molecules nor atoms but does say 'unseen' (invisible) things. But we do get other insights to unseen things as in 2 Corinthians 4:18, Leaving us to gain some info upon these events when we take the whole of the Biblical narrative into account. The Bible clearly states that Adam had 'begat' sons and daughters but in turn list merely 3 by name, all of them sons. And does not give us an age of when these other children were born nor any details of the others etc. Noting that these details are left out we are left with speculation. Knowing the ages our ancestors did live brings into perspective it would not be off base for one to suggest Adam and Eve had upwards to perhaps 100 or more children, seeing how they lived literally almost a millennium. I personally find that 30-75 more or less would not be excessive nor unreasonable by any means. Being Adan and Eve were the 1st to be created then they would have been the picture of human perfection in every way, i believe. There genetic material would have indeed been, well flawless. Also seeing how literally everything grew to be much larger than today's standards i also find it highly, most likely that they also were larger.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As to thinking of the implication as an older Brother marring his literal much younger sister, this is the reality of what this is. The Biblical narrative gives us no insight for this and again we must use what we have, each our own mental facilities. Cain obviously was not, shall i say a man of good repute. So him taking a younger sibling to wive seems highly likely and easily done for him. I say this because of the type of character the Bible gives us of Cain. We know he outright murdered his younger brother over jealousy and shame. Then Cain tells God to go look elsewhere, he is not Abel's babysitter. (of course my paraphrase)  


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#6 KillurBluff

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 12:58 PM

Further more, our Biblical account list many lineages, but remember NOT all of them. And being no such degradation of genetic genes were active at that time we can easily imply that the many offspring were in fact perfect. So that leads to many tens of thousands of genetically perfect humans in the years of Adam and Eve's son Seth. Now we also have a highly skilled and unfathomably brilliant populous. I believe not only were our ancestors physically superior but also mentally superior also, hence they are able to produce massive cities etc. in a very quick time frame. Using raw materials eg. stone, metal and wood. I believe genetic degradation did not randomly enter into our D.N.A. but entered when the 'sons of God entered into the daughters of man'. There are indeed varying ideologies, and heavy laden points of contention, on what this verse actually refers to even among Scholarly, Christian Theologians today when summarizing Genesis 6. 



#7 KillurBluff

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 03:26 PM

 

The answer is found in Genesis itself, that Adam and Eve had more children.;[/font]


Does it actually say that ? I don't remember reading about other children
 

This would allow incest to be viable.[/font]


Even if it was viable how would you feel if your only choice for procreation was with your sister ?

 

wibble, i hope you found something useful in our answers so far. As you can tell these topics are usually stayed away from, by even some of the best Theologians out there. For the most obvious reasons, because they are so shocking. What these scriptures show is that our reality and our current world is indeed more radical then most ever thought. Even in the Churches these topics are not hardly even mentioned and then when there are most clerics can not give an adequate sensible answer.



#8 KillurBluff

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 05:36 PM

 

The answer is found in Genesis itself, that Adam and Eve had more children.;[/font]


Does it actually say that ? I don't remember reading about other children
 

This would allow incest to be viable.[/font]


Even if it was viable how would you feel if your only choice for procreation was with your sister ?

 

I do not believe you've read it (The Bible), personally. So many of your question in other threads and here confirm my assertion. Now in relation to the more relevant of this thread is that of 'sons of God' in Genesis 6:1-4. As we know this 1st description is not always agreed upon as there are currently 3 main ideologies surrounding its meaning. 1. Is that this is to mean 'Fallen Angles' as in Revelations 12:4. 2. They are sons of Seth and the daughters of Cain. 3. They are the 'Powerful Princes' of the world. The Old Testament depicts the 'Sons Of God' as Angels. But this seems to be in contrast with what is written in Matthew 22:30 but we must not imply anything but to take it in context as it states "30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." Now notice these are NOT 'Fallen Angles' but this clearly states these are the Angles in Heaven and not those whom were cast out of Heaven. Is there any difference? Well, most assuredly, we can say yes. But we must not be to hasty to declare 'We Know'. For i readily admit, my most literal reading and understanding of our Biblical narrative has found me to be in stark odds against many Theologians, Ministers, Preachers etc. And i have not went through all the evidence as of yet in determining whom 'Sons of God' were, in my personal perspective. I shall return tomorrow to continue this inquiry, Good Bless My Brothers and Sisters in Yeshua Yahweh, Jesus Christ our only savior. 


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#9 wibble

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 03:04 PM

So if you are asking, "how would I feel?" It depends, in real life I have two sisters, back then if I had 45 of them what are the chances I might like one of them? Probably good.


That's a bit weird Mike. What difference does it make whether you have two sisters or 45 ?



#10 KillurBluff

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 03:20 PM

My apologies, in the last post i cited 'Revelation 12:4' Should have been Revelation 12:9 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:4 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. Jude 1:7 And Ishbibenob, which [was] of the sons of the giant, the weight of whose spear [weighed] three hundred [shekels] of brass in weight, he being girded with a new [sword], thought to have slain David. 2 Samuel 21:16

 And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of [great] stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant. 2 Samuel 21:20 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:9.  Now when we read Genesis 6:4  brings us to reading other Biblical scriptures for continuity. As in Genesis 18:1-8, 18:22,  19:1-3. The Angles unequivocally are indeed as human, they even ate and had their feet washed.



#11 wibble

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 03:22 PM

I do not believe you've read it (The Bible), personally. So many of your question in other threads and here confirm my assertion.


I never said I had. I've read Genesis and parts of Leviticus and of course am familiar with the various Bible stories and parables that you get taught at school etc. Have you ever read any religious text apart from the Bible ?



#12 KillurBluff

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 03:28 PM

 

I do not believe you've read it (The Bible), personally. So many of your question in other threads and here confirm my assertion.


I never said I had. I've read Genesis and parts of Leviticus and of course am familiar with the various Bible stories and parables that you get taught at school etc. Have you ever read any religious text apart from the Bible ?

 

You were taught various Biblical stories and parables in school? What schools? If you don't mind me asking, if in England i had no clue as to British schools teaching anything Biblical.



#13 KillurBluff

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 03:30 PM

 

I do not believe you've read it (The Bible), personally. So many of your question in other threads and here confirm my assertion.


I never said I had. I've read Genesis and parts of Leviticus and of course am familiar with the various Bible stories and parables that you get taught at school etc. Have you ever read any religious text apart from the Bible ?

 

You had mentioned to Mike The Wiz that you had never read anything about other children for Adam and Eve in Genesis.



#14 wibble

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 04:31 PM

You were taught various Biblical stories and parables in school? What schools? If you don't mind me asking, if in England i had no clue as to British schools teaching anything Biblical.


Yeah I think its pretty normal, my kids certainly learn about it. They even got given a Bible to take home. I don't think they are told its all literally true though.
 

 

 

I do not believe you've read it (The Bible), personally. So many of your question in other threads and here confirm my assertion.


I never said I had. I've read Genesis and parts of Leviticus and of course am familiar with the various Bible stories and parables that you get taught at school etc. Have you ever read any religious text apart from the Bible ?

 

You had mentioned to Mike The Wiz that you had never read anything about other children for Adam and Eve in Genesis.

 


Unless I've missed it, I don't see any reference to any children other than Cain and Abel. The first mention of someone else is Cain making love to his wife, but there is no mention of her beforehand, she just appears as part of the male dominated narrative.



#15 KillurBluff

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 05:32 PM

 

You were taught various Biblical stories and parables in school? What schools? If you don't mind me asking, if in England i had no clue as to British schools teaching anything Biblical.


Yeah I think its pretty normal, my kids certainly learn about it. They even got given a Bible to take home. I don't think they are told its all literally true though.
 

 

 

I do not believe you've read it (The Bible), personally. So many of your question in other threads and here confirm my assertion.


I never said I had. I've read Genesis and parts of Leviticus and of course am familiar with the various Bible stories and parables that you get taught at school etc. Have you ever read any religious text apart from the Bible ?

 

You had mentioned to Mike The Wiz that you had never read anything about other children for Adam and Eve in Genesis.

 


Unless I've missed it, I don't see any reference to any children other than Cain and Abel. The first mention of someone else is Cain making love to his wife, but there is no mention of her beforehand, she just appears as part of the male dominated narrative.

 

Yes the verse for Adam and Eve having more children other than Cain, Abel and Seth is in Genesis 5:3-4. They do not even give children Bibles nor Pray in the classrooms here anymore. The law in the U.S. against public school prayer can be found http://statelaws.fin...hool-laws.html  This was in the early 60s the law is older than i am. They Have stats on increase of all crime divorce etc. also since the Law was passed. But  BRAVO indeed for England give children Bibles.



#16 wibble

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 05:56 PM

Yes the verse for Adam and Eve having more children other than Cain, Abel and Seth is in Genesis 5:3-4.


Yes but Cain's wife isn't mentioned before that. The mention of sons and daughters only comes after Seth is born, when Adam was 130 years of age. Did Cain have to wait nearly 150 yrs and then had to marry his sister ?



#17 KillurBluff

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 06:24 AM

 

Yes the verse for Adam and Eve having more children other than Cain, Abel and Seth is in Genesis 5:3-4.


Yes but Cain's wife isn't mentioned before that. The mention of sons and daughters only comes after Seth is born, when Adam was 130 years of age. Did Cain have to wait nearly 150 yrs and then had to marry his sister ?

 

Who knows he, he may have taken a sister to wife 15 yrs 20 yrs 30 yrs 40 yrs after Seth. The Biblical narrative gives no further details. Just as i showed in the Hebrews 11:3 citation, which say's all things are made of things unseen (invisible) to our eyes, but does not actually say atoms because that word was not in the thesaurus at the time. 



#18 piasan

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 08:09 PM

 The law in the U.S. against public school prayer can be found http://statelaws.fin...hool-laws.html  This was in the early 60s the law is older than i am. They Have stats on increase of all crime divorce etc. also since the Law was passed. But  BRAVO indeed for England give children Bibles. 

Actually, the law against (teacher led) school prayer can be found here:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...."

 

Oklahoma allows a "moment of silence" at the beginning of the school day to students can "pray, meditate, or engage in other silent activity."  About 99% of students simply ignore it.



#19 Blitzking

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 09:55 PM

The law in the U.S. against public school prayer can be found http://statelaws.fin...hool-laws.html  This was in the early 60s the law is older than i am. They Have stats on increase of all crime divorce etc. also since the Law was passed. But  BRAVO indeed for England give children Bibles.

Actually, the law against (teacher led) school prayer can be found here:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...."
 
Oklahoma allows a "moment of silence" at the beginning of the school day to students can "pray, meditate, or engage in other silent activity."  About 99% of students simply ignore it.

Oklahoma allows a "moment of silence" at the beginning of the school day to students can "pray, meditate, or engage in other silent activity."

"About 99% of students simply ignore it."

That is because the Antichrist's minnions like you teach them Satan's poisonous lie of Evolution and lie to them about the so called "Evidence".. pretty proud of yourself aren't you?..


"Do not be misled: God is not mocked. For whatever a man might sow, that also he will reap." Gal 6



"The day will come when the evidence constantly accumulating around the evolutionary theory becomes so massively persuasive that even the last and most fundamental Christian warriors will have to lay down their arms and surrender unconditionally. I believe that day will be the end of Christianity.” G. Richard Bozarth, “The Meaning of Evolution”


"Christianity has fought, still fights, and will fight science to the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus’ earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of god. Take away the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer that died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing." American Atheist


"Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled Atheist"
Richard Dawkins

#20 mike the wiz

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 07:08 AM

 

It is immediately apparent that the lifespans are not a random or incoherent set of values but that they form a well-defined and regular series with time. Notice how the ages of the prediluvian patriarchs are fairly uniform and run between 895 and 969 with the exception of Lamech (777 years). Following the Flood (F), however, the lifespans drop rapidly and consistently with time. It is interesting to notice that although Shem was born before the Flood he lived most of his life of 600 years after it. The values of the age at death in the period after the Flood from Shem to Terah are between 600 and 148 years. The lifespans from Abraham on continue dropping but at a much slower rate. They run between 180 and 110 years before the Exodus (E). During the Mon­archy, longevity continues to slowly drop. The maximum age is 70 years for David, while it is only 36 for Ahaz.

So, there appear to be 3 distinct periods in the data: (1) the antediluvian, when lifespans were very high but very similar to each other, (2) a transition period after the Flood, when longevity dropped very fast, and (3) the postdiluvian period from Abraham to the fall of Jerusalem (D) when the age at death slowly but steadily continued dropping to values more consistent with populations in the near past..............

The data points define very closely a sigmoid curve, typical of processes that are initially stable; go through a period of rapid monotonic change, and slowly stabilize again at a much different value. This orderly pattern and sharp regularity of the lifespan data with time does not support the contention that Old Testament longevity values are wilfully assigned random figures or represent obscure mythological remnants of a dim past..............Analysis of the lifespans of Patriarchs and rulers in the Old Testament shows that the lifespan values over time clearly define a sigmoid curve. There is a regularity and order in the data that does not support the idea that Old Testament longevity values are mythological

https://creation.com...ical-patriarchs

 

Pretty realistic, for "myth" eh Wibble? Is it also a coincidence that genetically, incest would have been viable? Is it also a coincidence that the dimensions of the ark for the flood would work but the epic of Gilgamesh's cube shape has been proven to not work? If the bible was myth it should be far easier to plot a graph that would just show that it was all invention. If it is all invention don't you think it is one heck of a lucky idea to come up with the idea of greater longevity existing in a perfect world that happens to plot a graph that would indicate there genuinely was a genetic deterioration?

 

Wow, what an awful lot of bullseyes these simple sheep-herders seem to have struck. They also said the fountains of the great deep were broken up and we find that very thing, a scar going round the whole earth (mid-oceanic ridge) with stretch marks either size and matching where the pangea broken up, because the continental shelves either side, match up like a jigsaw puzzle, showing the fountains of the deep caused the split. Another lucky coincidence? Is it another coincidence we find fossils of every type of phyla in the rocks, giving birth, fighting, exquisitely preserved? What a bullseye from those sheep-herders, because just think how laughable it would have been had we only found angiosperms in the rocks, or we only found invertebrates, or we found nothing at all, just think how easy it would be to say, "what flood, there would have been all types of life buried by it? Where is the evidence of deposition, there would be rock laid down all over the world."


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