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Apparent Age


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#21 MRC_Hans

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 11:24 PM

Hans,

Just so you'll know for future reference, God has made a very clear distinction in the Bible between plants, animals and man. The Hebrew words describing their creation are different, as well as describing how they "die." In short, plants were given by God as food for man and animals. They don't figure into the effect of sin at all, unless you consider that God punished Adam and all his descendants with the burden of having to toil by the sweat of his brow to till the soil and struggle to produce food from the fall on.

You can read an article about it at:

http://www.answersin...2/do-leaves-die

If you pursue this study farther, you'll realize that not only are plants clearly different from animals, but animals are clearly very different from man. Man is unique in God's creation, and that's why no matter how "religiously" materialistic scientists try to produce man from mud, they'll never be able to do more than wander aimlessly around a maze of evolutionistic false trails.

Dave

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Actually, you didn't answer my question. Now, I know it's not an easy one, but quite interesting; many other life-forms indulge in activities that we consider sinful in humans.

Hans

#22 Dave

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 07:24 AM

Actually, you didn't answer my question.

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Hans,

I'm assuming you mean this one?

Exactly which life forms count with regards to the effect of sin (and why)?


It's a vague question: What do you meam by "life form?" What do you mean by "count?" What do you mean by "regards?" What do you mean by "effect?" And what do you mean by "sin?"

The short answer, easily verfied in the Bible, is that all of creation suffered the effect of the first sin. That's man, all other living creatures, all plants, the whole physical earth, and the whole universe beyond the earth. Every atom, molecule and quark particle are subject to the degradation brought upon creation by Adam and Eve's sin. Some Bible commentators speculate that the law of entropy entered the world at this time. Before the fall, everything God created was very good, in fact perfect.

I hope this helps.

Dave

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 03:04 AM

Ehrm, this is what the whole discussion is about. It may appear to the casual observer that the world is created, but if you research things it looks differently.


Oh, I have a feel for the numbers that man likes to tout at as the truth, but that's not necessarily what the apparent age really is, its only how man has misinterpreted the apparent age that necessarily had to be there.

I'm certainly not complaining. .....Perhaps God told me something different.


Understanding that you are your own God, then I aggree that your God told you something different.

And that's really the point. God knows the arrogance of man, and that he is quick to reject God, and settle for his own "truth". So, its not unreasonable to expect that God is giving man enough rope to hang himself with, while at the same time giving him enough of the truth to avoid the peril that awaits him at the end of that rope.

Terry

#24 MRC_Hans

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 03:16 AM

*snip*
Understanding that you are your own God, then I aggree that your God told you something different.


Where do I say that I'm my own God?

And that's really the point.  God knows the arrogance of man, and that he is quick to reject God, and settle for his own "truth".  So, its not unreasonable to expect that God is giving man enough rope to hang himself with, while at the same time giving him enough of the truth to avoid the peril that awaits him at the end of that rope.


So you agree that it is our quest to seek the truth. How can you judge that your truth is better than mine?

Hans

#25 MRC_Hans

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 03:21 AM

Hans,

I'm assuming you mean this one?
It's a vague question: What do you meam by "life form?" What do you mean by "count?" What do you mean by "regards?" What do you mean by "effect?" And what do you mean by "sin?"

The short answer, easily verfied in the Bible, is that all of creation suffered the effect of the first sin. That's man, all other living creatures, all plants, the whole physical earth, and the whole universe beyond the earth. Every atom, molecule and quark particle are subject to the degradation brought upon creation by Adam and Eve's sin. Some Bible commentators speculate that the law of entropy entered the world at this time. Before the fall, everything God created was very good, in fact perfect.

I hope this helps.

Dave

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Yes, I think it sums up your position quite well, thank you.

However, God also created Adam and Eve with the ability to sin. So the possibility for introduction of sin was part of God's perfect creation, right?

Hans

#26 Dave

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 08:54 AM

However, God also created Adam and Eve with the ability to sin.

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Yes. God created angels (Lucifer) and man (Adam and Eve) with free will. They, apart from any creative action from God, chose to exercise their free will and disobey God.

So the possibility for introduction of sin was part of God's perfect creation, right?

Hans


Yes. Despite being "very good" at creation, and despite God's warning, Adam and Eve chose to sin, and the whole of creation suffered the consequences. This proves man's fallen, sinful nature, and has nothing to do with God's goodness or motives for the creation.

I'm not sure where you are going with this. Could you expand on the thought process you've started here?

Dave

#27 MRC_Hans

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 01:25 AM

Yes. God created angels (Lucifer) and man (Adam and Eve) with free will. They, apart from any creative action from God, chose to exercise their free will and disobey God.
Yes. Despite being "very good" at creation, and despite God's warning, Adam and Eve chose to sin, and the whole of creation suffered the consequences. This proves man's fallen, sinful nature, and has nothing to do with God's goodness or motives for the creation.

I'm not sure where you are going with this. Could you expand on the thought process you've started here?

Dave

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In other words, again: God created a reality where sin was an option. Since God is omniscient, He would not be unaware where this would lead. Thus, in my view, it is all part of God's plan.

What the implications of this are, I have no idea. I can explain what my position is, but I can't tell you what it means for yours.

Hans

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Posted 14 November 2006 - 02:27 PM

Thanks for your suggestion on how to harmonize the fossil record with a young earth.

This is not science, this is belief attempting to act like science, this is a blatant example of trying to pick and choose evidence that supports someone’s pre-conceived notions.

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You should feel right at home with that concept....

Terry

#29 lionheart209

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Posted 27 November 2006 - 02:58 PM

I'm coming more to the conclusion all of the time that the universe was created with some apparent age.

When we read that God created Adam, and all of the rest of liing beings, then its reasonable to assume that they were all fully formed adult specimens.  If they were fully formed adult specimens, then obviously they had whetever age we would consider adulthood for them.  E.g. 18 years old for adam, and maybe 2-3 years old for a horse, etc.....

Now the question goes to the remainder of the universe.  Why would God create the rest of the universe with an apparent age?

I think the biblical passage tells pretty much the story:

1CO 1:19 For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside."
1CO 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

Notice that God is destroing the wisdom of the wise.  How does he do this?  I think one way is by laying a trap.

JER 50:23 "How the hammer of the whole earth Has been cut off and broken! How Babylon has become An object of horror among the nations!
JER 50:24 "I set a snare for you, and you were also caught, O Babylon, While you yourself were not aware; You have been found and also seized Because you have engaged in conflict with the Lord."

The unbeliever is trapped because he is engaging in conflict with the Lord. 

1CO 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

It seems as if God has designed it such that the clverness of man works against man in coming to know him.

That's what's funny about all of this supposed science about the past.  Evolutionists can create all of the clever arguments they want, but all they ar doing is tighting the rope around their own neck.

If the universe was created in the state that its in, how would you ever figure it out scientifically?

Terry

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Time didn't exist until the fall of man account in Genesis, only after man sinned did time come into play.

Time was part of the curse, But since sin happened shortly after the creation, and we figure that by the genealogy of the bible, it can be determined that the earth/universe are around 6,000 to 10,000 years old.

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 07:15 PM

Time didn't exist until the fall of man account in Genesis, only after man sinned did time come into play.

Time was part of the curse, But since sin happened shortly after the creation, and we figure that by the genealogy of the bible, it can be determined that the earth/universe are around 6,000 to 10,000 years old.

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If time didn't exist, then what are the 6 Days of creation?

Terry

#31 ikester7579

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 09:01 PM

Where do I say that I'm my own God?


When your explanations and theories replace God in an attempt to explain how Godlike power just happens. Then your thoughts make up your own truth, and reality.... And when you can control this in your own mind. And then believe it. Then you become your own god. Why? Complete control over what you "perceive" that goes on around you gives you what kind of power? And when you try and dictate this self made reality to others. Then you are promoting your controlled reality as a means to make people think and see just as you do (Control of thoughts on what truth is, is a godlike power).

But it's who controls it, is when you become your own god. So who controls in your mind, what you think reality is about where origins is concerned, etc...? You do. And who makes up the theories, ideas, truth, and lies to believe? You do. And when you come here promoting this, That "your" reality is true. Then you are promoting yourself as your own God.

Humanism: the system of philosophy based upon human reason, actions, and motives without concern of deity or supernatural phenomena.
A doctrine, attitude, or way of life centered on human interests or values; esp. a philosophy that usu. rejects super-naturalism and stresses an individuals dignity and worth and capacity for self-realization through reason.

Humanism and evolution go hand in hand. Because the minute your ideas control your truth, you become your own god.

#32 ikester7579

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Posted 28 November 2006 - 09:10 PM

If time didn't exist, then what are the 6 Days of creation?

Terry

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I think where the misunderstanding about time before and after the fall. Is what eternal time is. Eternal time has different rules and boundaries then what we see today. But it does not mean time did not exist.

And when the fall of man took place, the rules and boundaries changed to accommodate the curse of man because of his choice to sin.

lionheart209,

I know it's confusing, but you are on the right track to figuring this out. I went through the same confusion about time before I realized that either what is believed fits, and is true, or it don't and is not true. God's word cannot be full of contradictions. So our explanations cannot make what is not there, seem to be there anyway.

Added: This is actually what I used to do to make things fit, or seem right because I did not understand. Once I realized it's not about whether I'm right, but it's about God's word being true. Things started to come together. And truth from the word just seemed to flow. Allowing the word to be my only guide to it's truth, was allowing God to be God. And not some thought up idea of my own, which made the word contradict itself.




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