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Does Oil Really Take Millions Of Years To Form?


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#81 larrywj2

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 07:06 PM

Darn too bad I was gone. Some good back and forth on. I have been away but I am back, new handle though. (was lwj2op2).
And to see if I have the controls down thought I'd throw somehingin here for practice.

One difficulty you all had with the discussion of deserts may be the lack of a definition. They are not defined by the amount of life within. Antarctica is technically a desert. Deserts are locations with limited rainfall. The ocean could even be counted among some definitions as they do not require a particular terrain.

#82 Geode

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 09:20 AM

As a petroleum geologist I have been involved in projects where a team tried to determine the hydrocarbons that would be produced from available "source" rocks. Ths subject is part of everyday work for us.

Geochemical studies have indicated that very little oil has been produced from Dinosaurs or any other larger land animals or sea creatures. Most is produced from plant material, with algae often being very important. Planktonic material also provides the kerogen (organic material in rock) that can yield oil. Terrestrial plant material also yields oil, but more often gas.

A process called "Rock Evol Pyrolysis" is used to determine what might be generated from source rocks. The OP is correct that oil can be generated very quickly but pressure is not particularly necessary, only heat. Oil is generated in this process, and quickly.

geobiology@mit http://www-eaps.mit....rs/kerogen.html

#83 AFJ

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 09:42 AM

As a petroleum geologist I have been involved in projects where a team tried to determine the hydrocarbons that would be produced from available "source" rocks. Ths subject is part of everyday work for us.

Geochemical studies have indicated that very little oil has been produced from Dinosaurs or any other larger land animals or sea creatures. Most is produced from plant material, with algae often being very important. Planktonic material also provides the kerogen (organic material in rock) that can yield oil. Terrestrial plant material also yields oil, but more often gas.

A process called "Rock Evol Pyrolysis" is used to determine what might be generated from source rocks. The OP is correct that oil can be generated very quickly but pressure is not particularly necessary, only heat. Oil is generated in this process, and quickly.

geobiology@mithttp://www-eaps.mit.edu/geobiology/biomarkers/kerogen.html

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Hi Geode,

Thanks for your comment, and information. Many creationists are aware of what you told us. There are different models on the deluge, but the common theme is that massive tectonic /volcanic cataclysm caused both the upheaval of continents and the oceanic ridges. The death of the entire biosphere resulted, much of which was plant life. Because of the megatons of detritus, there followed unimaginable planktonic blooms resulting in chalk, limestone, and also oil deposits. Trees and woody materials (e.g. volcanic log mats) caused coal and multiple forests. May I suggest you research Steven Austin's research at Mt. Saint Helens since 1983.

One of the supports for this view is that wet moving strata was slowed to a stop and bent in places.

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I don't want to deviate from the thread. This last one is only a support against an argument of heat and pressure. We know that the last one has undergone diagenesis in some sort. But no way heat and pressure is going to cause this. It is in the Colorado Plateau, where there are plenty of slot canyons--water caused. Furthermore the grains of sand in the southwestern US are coated by hematite--iron ore--hence the red color. In other words they have been dyed in liquid solution.

#84 Geode

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 08:57 PM

Hi Geode,

Thanks for your comment, and information.  Many creationists are aware of what you told us.  There are different models on the deluge, but the common theme is that massive tectonic /volcanic cataclysm caused both the upheaval of continents and  the oceanic ridges.  The death of the entire biosphere resulted, much of which was plant life.  Because of the megatons of detritus, there followed unimaginable planktonic blooms resulting in chalk, limestone,  and also oil deposits.  Trees and woody materials (e.g. volcanic log mats) caused coal and multiple forests.  May I suggest you research Steven Austin's research at Mt. Saint Helens since 1983.

One of the supports for this view is that wet moving strata was slowed to a stop and bent in places. 

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

I don't want to deviate from the thread.  This last one is only a support against an argument of heat and pressure.  We know that the last one has undergone diagenesis in some sort.  But no way heat and pressure is going to cause this.  It is in the Colorado Plateau, where there are plenty of slot canyons--water caused.  Furthermore the grains of sand in the southwestern US are coated by hematite--iron ore--hence the red color.  In other words they have been dyed in liquid solution.

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Hi AFI,

Oils have been verified to have been generated from source rocks that appear in various portions of the stratigraphy of the same basins. Biomakers have allowed this to be done, allowing oils to be typed to different source rock formations with different organic material created in different depositional environments. Some of these contain only terrestrial plant material, others planktonic or marine algae.

Yes, soft sediment deformation can occur but be careful when viewing scenes with irregular erosion such as the last picture which appears to be from Antelope Canyon in Arizona. The changing angle with which the face of the outcrop shows itself can create what is termed "apparent dip" which makes the dip of beds appear different than what is actually present. Folding caused by slumping and the like when the sediments are still soft generally show features on the bedding planes that help with reaching this conclusion. One cannot study these bedforms from photos showing the whole of the outcrop. However, tight Chevron folds are present in Metamorphic rocks that have undergone the actions of heat and stress as shown by the crystallography of the rocks. Rocks will deform plastically and not rupture and break when subjected to enough heat and pressure, as shown in lab experiments.

I get involved in the use of some of the aspects of rock strength that came out of the lab studies and are verified by actual tests we do in wells. We must decide the depths that casing must be set in a well to allow for the safe drilling with increasing pressures. If we set it too shallow the rocks are too weak to withstand the pressure exerted by the weight of the mud column in the wellbore. Tests are done at the casing shoe by pressuring up the well. One test takes the pressure up to where the rocks start to deform but not rupture, another takes it to where the rocks actually fracture as the pressure exceeds the theoretical fracture gradient that has been calculated. Some angled bedding planes are not folds at all but are primary depositional features, such as the cross-bedding in the Navajo sandstone shown in Antelope Canyon. Yes, slot canyons are erosional features that are created after the deposition of the rocks into which they are eroded. which in this case appear to be wind-blown sand, as shown by the preponderance of the evidence in that direction.

Heat remains a necessary component in the generation of oil from organic material as is confirmed in the laboratory techniques to which I linked. This is also shown in well data in sedimentary basins. Different basins have different geothermal gradients, with temperatures increasing with depth. Where source beds are still above the needed temperatures to crack oil from the rocks none is found and that part of the basin remains less prospective as shown by dry wells. When the same rock is buried depth enough to reach thermal maturity oil generation and expulsion is possible and wells discover oil if traps and seals to hold exist. Gas is another story and methane is being created at surface temperatures, often in landfill. It can be created either by the action of bacteria of through the application of heat. But the molecules of methane are very simple in comparison.

Yes, hematite coatings on sand grains can give a reddish color. This is generally a secondary process through diagenesis as you have noted, with groundwater circulating through the sandstone deposit. Often this can be found to have been subsequently bleached white when reducing conditions come to be present.

#85 Scanman

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 11:29 AM

Posted Image
...This last one is only a support against an argument of heat and pressure.  We know that the last one has undergone diagenesis in some sort.  But no way heat and pressure is going to cause this.  It is in the Colorado Plateau, where there are plenty of slot canyons--water caused.  Furthermore the grains of sand in the southwestern US are coated by hematite--iron ore--hence the red color.  In other words they have been dyed in liquid solution.

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AFJ,

Just some clarification on 'The Wave' image that you have shown...
This is a Jurassic Navajo sandstone aeolian deposit that has been carved out by both water and sculpted by wind.

GSA-The Geological Society of America

...sandstone coloration in a wide range of red, orange, yellow, white, and purple hues is largely controlled by iron oxide mineralogies that document diagenetic fluid flow and chemical reaction fronts in Navajo Sandstone. There are at least four distinct coloration events: an initial reddening by syndepositional to early diagenetic grain-coatings of iron oxides (e.g., hematite); a bleaching event by reducing fluids; a secondary introduction of Fe evidenced by dark, black to purple liesegang rings; and a final overprinting of a yellow liesegang-type banding.


This natural formation is a result of multiple events...the aeolian dune formation, the oxidation , the diagenetic reactions, the bleaching events as a result of receding fluids, etc..., all of which required alternating wet/dry environments.

Peace

#86 AFJ

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 04:38 PM

AFJ,

Just some clarification on 'The Wave' image that you have shown...
This is a Jurassic Navajo sandstone aeolian deposit that has been carved out by both water and sculpted by wind.

GSA-The Geological Society of America
This natural formation is a result of multiple events...the aeolian dune formation, the oxidation , the diagenetic reactions, the bleaching events as a result of receding fluids, etc..., all of which required alternating wet/dry environments.

Peace

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Scanman,
Welcome back. Remember when we discussed liesegang banding. I guess we were right. But I've never seen sand dunes like this, with such steep sides. Somewhere there was some cementing done--most likely calcite--as it is rather ubiquitous throughout sedimentary rock. It seems more reaonsable to think these "dunes" were formed with the cementing within and throughout, by saturation, rather than slow ground water. And if rain saturated the formation, from where did the cementing come. Seawater on the other hand contains calcite.

One thing is sure, one can not tell the speed of formation by simply looking at the finished product. One needs to analyze the contents.

#87 Geode

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Posted 19 January 2011 - 09:56 PM

Scanman,
Welcome back.  Remember when we discussed liesegang banding.  I guess we were right.  But I've never seen sand dunes like this, with such steep sides.  Somewhere there was some cementing done--most likely calcite--as it is rather ubiquitous throughout sedimentary rock.  It seems more reaonsable to think these "dunes" were formed with the cementing within and throughout, by saturation, rather than slow ground water.  And if rain saturated the formation, from where did the cementing come.  Seawater on the other hand contains calcite.

One thing is sure, one can not tell the speed of formation by simply looking at the finished product.  One needs to analyze the contents.

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As I have posted before in response to a similar comment, there actually are many sedimentary rocks that are not calcite cemented. It is not ubiquitous. I deal with thousands or feet of cemented sandstones abd shales that have little or no calcite cement. I think that there could be some calcite cement involved with the rocks in question here, but as the extent of such cementation has not been stated I think conjecture about "saturation" is not really something logical to do. But then again ground water can bring about saturation of empty pores just as effectively as submerging sediment in a lake or ocean. Ground waters often contain a lot of dissolved calcium carbonate. Rainwater is often becomes a weak carbonic acid that does this trick. Remember Steve Austin's report on caves? Seawater does not contain calcite, as this is a solid mineral. It contains the requisite ions to form the mineral through precipitation.

The presence of absence of calcite cement is not an indicator or a marine or non-marine origin. However, as Scanman has noted the Navajo Sandstone has been shown by multiple lines of evidence to have been deposited by wind.

It also seems obvious that hematite is present as a cement, perhaps the one that is dominant.




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