Ron 10 Report post Posted February 23, 2012 It sounds like you don't know how free will works. You previously assumed it in talking about it, but did not explain how free will works. Muslim faith emphasizes it's simplicity, and anybody who acknowledges God is a muslim, according to muslims. It seems that you are the one here that is flailing in the understanding of “free will” (or, dare I say "equivocating"). So let me ask you this: Did someone FORCE you to reply here, or did you choose to do so of your own accord? And, in your decision to reply here, did you choose to turn on your computer, log onto the internet, log into this forum, and make your reply, or did someone FORCE you to do so? I could go on and on, but this will suffice for now. Further, it doesn’t require one to be (or become) a Muslim to understand the definition of “free will”. One need only have a dictionary, and have the ability to use it. So your arguement fails agins... Free Will (Noun) "The power of independent action and choice – The ability to act or make choices as a free and autonomous being and not solely as a result of compulsion or predestination." <Encarta Dictinary> Now, can YOU provide “OBJECTIVE” evidence for YOUR being compulsed or predestined to reply to any posts in this thread, or this forum? I would submit that you fail at your own definition/argument (that I replied to in post #25). You cannot provide objective evidence for your definition of how free will works. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 Report post Posted February 23, 2012 It sounds like you don't know how free will works. You previously assumed it in talking about it, but did not explain how free will works. Muslim faith emphasizes it's simplicity, and anybody who acknowledges God is a muslim, according to muslims. You just admitted that you are not Muslim. 1) You dodged the question about Allah. 2) You don;t use the Quran. 3) And you just mentioned Muslims in the third person as if you are not one, even though you claim to be one in your world view. At this forum we frown on people who join and pose as something they are not to either gain an advantage in debates, or just play a game to waste everyone's time while you get a laugh. Members who lie right up front are not interested in honest fair debate. So for now your posting abilities will be suspended until review. And by the way I was not the only one who noticed this. The problem here Ike, is that these folks who come here to do this, get exposed, and show them-selves as fools (or being foolish); unless they are honestly ignorant in their approach. Whenever this is the case, they will also be honest in their willingness to admit that they were wrong, and learn from their mistakes. On that point, we'll wait and see... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 Report post Posted February 23, 2012 As an aside, Syamsu has been banned for a number of reasons. So if anyone posts replies to his posts, don't expect replies from him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JayShel 32 Report post Posted February 23, 2012 ...anybody who acknowledges God is a muslim, according to muslims. False. First, if Christians are Muslims, and Jews are Muslims, then why murder us over all these centuries? The answer is simple; we both acknowlege a God, but we disagree completely on who that God is. The Christian God is a trinity, Father God, Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit. Muslims reject this. Also, in Islam, there is no guarantee for salvation. You MIGHT get into heaven through good works. Christians completely disagree; the ONLY way into heaven is to accept Jesus Christ's living sacrifice for your sin, and no good works will save you, because without Jesus, you sin will always be worse than any good works you could possibly do and you will lack righteousness. God has established one plan for salvation, and it is better than any salvation by works. It is a free gift. 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. John 14:6-12 Muhammad attempted to steal a lot of the Christian doctrine, deny Jesus, and rewrite the Gospel about 600 years after Jesus died. Islam insists that the Torah and the Gospels were corrupted over time, which is contrary to God's word that says that God will preserve it from corruption; Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. (Jesus Christ, Son of God) Mark 13:31 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 4:1-2 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. Psalms 12:6-7 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11 , and our historical knowledge of the Bible. We know through historical study that the Bible was well preserved both in copies of the Bible itself, and in the writings of early church leaders. It is said that even if every Bible had been destroyed, every verse still would have existed in the writings of these people, prior to councils that supposedly edited it. It has not been corrupted. Furthermore, it was written by one person who attempted to spread Islam by the sword. It actually reminds me of the garden of eden, when the serpent began twisting God's word to cause us to sin and bring evil upon us. So, no, we are not Muslim, we are Christian. Big difference. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ikester7579 19 Report post Posted February 24, 2012 I was wondering, since the thread basically got derailed by the member here who is now banned. If you guys want this thread cleaned up taking away this members posts here and responses to them so it can continue on subject, Or leave it as is? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 Report post Posted February 24, 2012 As you know Ike, I am a big proponent of leaving many of these type of posts up to be examples of the arguments from misdirection, ignorance (etc...) and corrective replies that directly refute said argumentation. I personally don't believe that Syamsu was any more 'Muslim', than you or I. But rather, he was here posting under a false world-view, and a great many of his posts reflect that. Therefore, it is also important for the other members of this forum to know that people will come to this to stir up problems using these tactics. So, you already know my vote on the subject... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JayShel 32 Report post Posted February 24, 2012 I agree with Ron. Either he was trying to waste people's time, or he was attempting to take a confused worldview and apply it to philosophy, and it fell apart, so either way it stands as an example of how fast logic and reason falls apart when you discard the Chief Cornerstone, Jesus Christ. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ikester7579 19 Report post Posted February 24, 2012 Okay no problem it stays as is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gilbo12345 859 Report post Posted February 26, 2012 I believe in his last words, (in chat), Syamsu was attempting to advocate subjective moral values over objective moral values... I guess this is what he meant by being "free" since there would be NO restrictions, moral or otherwise... However I do not agree with that concept. Since it would allow all manner of atrocities to be done. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teejay 109 Report post Posted February 26, 2012 name='Syamsu' timestamp='1329672112' post='80254'] It's my experience in talking to evolutionists, that they have bad knowledge about free will, nor do they care to have good knowledge about it. Creationism generally does have many good elements in it in so far as knowledge about free will goes, but except for me, I don't see creationists emphasize this knowledge. I want to start discussing free will with some creationists, to come to a critical understanding of free will. That means to figure out what different definitions of free will there are, which is the best one, and how important understanding of free will is. By the best definition, I mean the one that is most useful on a practical basis. On the wiki about free will you can see the thinking on free will is divided into 4 groups. But IMO there are essentially only 2 definitions. 1 deterministic free will - free will is to calculate an optimal result from a set of alternatives on the basis of a pre-set goal - the alternatives are mental constructs in the mind - decision is to act upon an alternative chosen as the best - what decides is a brain, it calculates what is best - freedom means to be uninhibited, unconstrained 2 indeterministic free will - free will is to choose from available alternatives - the alternatives are in the future - a decision is the act to realize one alternative and negate the others - what does the deciding is a matter of subjective opinion Those are generally the 2 definitions used. Evolutionists generally use the first definition and creationists generally use the second definition. Can any creationist comment on what they find to be the best definition? Or if they see there is another definition possible that is not a mix of these 2. Syamsu, Free will is the freedom to do otherwise. For example, you freely chose to worship Allah who is a pagan moon god that does not exist and was invented in the mind of Mohammed just as Mormonism was invented in the mind of Joseph Smith. If Mohammed could be resurrected from Hell and put before you and he told you that Allah does not exist, you would still be free to self-dilude yourself and deny the one true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God can't make you love Him. Love must be given freely. TeeJay Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Teejay 109 Report post Posted February 26, 2012 name='ikester7579' timestamp='1329997894' post='80470'] You just admitted that you are not Muslim. 1) You dodged the question about Allah. 2) You don;t use the Quran. 3) And you just mentioned Muslims in the third person as if you are not one, even though you claim to be one in your world view. At this forum we frown on people who join and pose as something they are not to either gain an advantage in debates, or just play a game to waste everyone's time while you get a laugh. Members who lie right up front are not interested in honest fair debate. So for now your posting abilities will be suspended until review. And by the way I was not the only one who noticed this. Ikester and Syamsu, "Anyone who acknowledges God is a Muslim." Why then to Muslims kill Christians? TeeJay Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
