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#21 ikester7579

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 12:37 PM

It does seem this way. The most common argument that the OSAS preacher will give is that not all associated with the Christian congregation at that time were saved, so the warnings were for those professed Christians and also for professed Christians today. What do you say to that reasoning?


A professed Christian that is not saved is a unsaved sinner. God does not categorize a in between position. And that is also shown during judgement.

Example:

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Side note: Who are the goats? There is no verse in the Bible that ever refers unsaved sinners as goats.

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Side note: Left hand right hand judgment.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Side note: The judgment here that condemns or saves is not salvation. Read through this whole judgment and you will notice that it does not say: You are saved go here, you are unsaved go there. Instead there is a kingdom work standard.
1) Hungred and ye gave me no meat = The meat of the word for the more learned in Christ,
2) Thirsty and ye gave me no drink = The milk of the word for the new in Christ.
3) I was a stranger and you took me in = A stranger unto salvation. Taking them in is showing them the way unto salvation.
4) Naked and ye clothed me = Giving someone the word so they can put on the armor of God.
5) I was sick an ye visit me = Going to someone's house to pray for them while they were sick.
6) I was in prison and ye visit me = Christ cam to set the captives free. You visit the unsaved because they are imprisoned by sin.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Side note: Then the ones in the next few verses thought salvation was all that was needed and do not understand why they were not counted among the righteous.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Now notice the part in red. Do you see that this was all about ministering (kingdom works) just like I pointed out? This means that the kingdom work is about giving the saved what is needed (the milk and meat of the word And clothing them with the word of God). And finding the unsaved where ever they may be and telling them about the gospel (Stranger, sick, and in prison). Also notice that each work is a trinity unto the group it is supposed to be done for.

So there are 3 things we are supposed to do for the saved, and 3 things we are supposed to do for the unsaved. So there are 6 ministry jobs to do when we get to be ministers. Ministry can take many forms. If for instance you help someone here you just ministered. If you live your Christian life on your sleeve so that others can see Christ through you, you ministered to everyone who saw this. If you take the time to answer the saved and unsaved questions about Christ, the Father, or the Word you are ministering. etc....

So we know from not being able to confirm in the word that the goats are not unsaved sinners. This idea was born out of making the word conform to a doctrine instead of the doctrine conforming to the word, If any of us were Satan and knew the works part was very important in order to get to Heaven. What would you do to deceive as many as you could to fail that judgment test? You would sell them on another doctrine that says "Kingdom works" are not needed. That any type of works is a sin. And that any work is working your way to Heaven. And that when anyone brings up the subject of works it is always shot down with the phrase: Oh, so you work your way to Heaven? Always proving the false doctrine with guilt. always ignoring all verses that counter it as if they do not exist. Always only bringing up the verses that seem to work to make the doctrine look true instead of actually using "every part the word" to "prove" it is true. Refusing to address any verse that does not work. The word is not a pick and choose type deal. If what you believe cannot be explained using all the verses that exist then there is something wrong.

So the goats are the saved who did not meet the "standard" of what the saved are supposed to do. But why call them goats then throw them into the fire? In the works judgment where what you did gets test by fire. And if it's not righteous it burns up. It is said that the same fire that burns your unrighteous work will also burn you. And what that fire does to you is also listed in this verse:

1cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Now the only covenant that requires fire for sin atonement is the old covenant. And goats are one of the animals that are allowed as sin atonement to be burned on a fire. Starting to get the picture yet? And since the second judgment is being judged by Father God which is the head of the old covenant what does that mean? Because the goats from the first judgment are already in Hell, in the second judgment is the judgment of Hell. And all will be pulled from Hell so it means that the goats get judged again. This is what the plucking from the hands verse are about. We get judged in the hands of Christ but if we end up as goats we then get judged in the hands of Father God. And no man can pluck them out of the judgment of the Father's hands.

Now one might say: But I thought everyone at the Great White Throne judgment went to Hell. Well so did I because I was taught that in a osas church. But let's take a look at what the word says.

rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If the judgment here was absolute to be condemned to the lake of fire, the verse would say:

And no one was found written in the book of life so everyone was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice that it does not imply such a thing. In fact it implies that some will make it into heaven from here. And when I saw this amd realized this I thought: Who in the heck would be worthy here to get into Heaven. And that started my search. And that's when I found the goats and started putting things together.

How long do the goats stay in the fire? Through the 1,000 years we are with Christ on earth. You see we get corrected by Christ who will rule and reign with a rod. They will be corrected and purified by fire to be judged as worthy or not worthy by Father God.

#22 MamaElephant

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 06:09 PM

Teejay, I am addressing your post in blue. Issac, I am not ignoring you, but am not replying yet. I can only absorb and respond to so much at once!

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:44). If we take this verse woodenly literal, we have to reason that the people who do not come to Jesus are doomed to eternity in Hell apart from their Creator God—simply because God the Father elected not to draw them to His Son.

The phrase “raise him up” can’t mean judgment to condemnation, for then Jesus would be damning people who come to Him and Jesus said that he would cast no one out that came to him (John 6:37). And Jesus did say, “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL peoples to Myself” (John 12:32). I really enjoyed these two scriptures being put together. I had never seen that before. This further evidence of Jesus and the Father being one, and it is also a scripture that refutes Calvinism.
Calvinism becomes unavoidable in that for some unknown reason, God the Father draws some but does not draw others. So if we compare John 6:44 with John 6:37 & 12:32, we have a violation of the law of non-contradiction. For it can’t possibly be true that God draws only some people and true that He draws all people at the same time and in the same way. The laws of logic are immaterial, universal, and absolute and as such can only come from the mind of an immaterial rational Being. Jesus said that “I am the truth…” If Jesus were illogical, He would be untruthful and would deny Himself. He can’t be illogical and remain logical and truthful. This is impossible even for God. In light of all this, can we dig a little deeper.

First, let’s talk about being “raised up.” In John 6:39, 44, Jesus says that He will “raise him up at the last day.” In the Bible, there are two resurrections. The first resurrection is at the end of the Tribulation and it is for those who have not “worshipped the beast” (Rev. 20:4-5). And they will reign with Jesus for a thousand years (or the Millennium Kingdom). Revelation 20:4-5 specifically states that this is the “first” resurrection. One may ask: “Isn’t Jesus the first resurrection?” But Jesus makes it clear that He is not the first or second, but He states that He is “THE” Resurrection (John 11:25). (I am purposely leaving out the Rapture, because when Jesus spoke in John, He never mentioned the Rapture. The Rapture is for the Body of Christ and we are members of His Body. During His ministry, the establishment of the Body of Christ was a secret, was future and was contingent on Israel rejecting or accepting their risen Messiah. Now we may not want to get into the subject of the Rapture in this thread.) That’s okay but I just wanted to be clear.

The second and final resurrection occurs at the Great White Throne Judgment, when ALL the dead (minus members of the Body of Christ who are raptured physically and whose salvation is assured). See Revelation 20:11-15. Of course, Jesus also spoke of this same resurrection in John 5:28-29. And we must understand that this is a resurrection of physical bodies and only those in Hell They are in hell before they are judged? will be judged to condemnation. I thought resurrection, "raised back up", always meant physical bodies.

So, what could Jesus have meant when He told the Jews that they could not come to Him unless the Father draws them? Jesus warned that “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true” (John 5:31). In the OT, a matter was established “by the mouth of two or three witnesses.” And of course Jesus provided more than two witness besides Himself—His Father in John 8:18, His miracles, and Moses and the prophets and the whole of the OT. Jesus told the Pharisees that if they had KNOWN the Father, they would have KNOWN Jesus (John 8:19). By not knowing the Father, it was impossible for them to know Jesus. Jesus’ accusing the Jews of not knowing their God was an accusation that did not sit well. I have often thought that if I were alive during Jesus’ ministry, I would have liked to have been a Velcro salesman. When Jesus opened His mouth, the Pharisees tore their robes. A Velcro salesman would have made a fortune with Jewish wives. So, instead of interpreting this Calvinisticly and illogically should we interpret John 6:44 through not only other Scripture, but through the true nature of God—that He desires that all men be saved. AMEN!

Ikester, notice that “God gave them over to a reprobate mind” because “they did not like to retain God in their knowledge and not because He did not elect to draw them to Him. God wanted them to come to Him. Right? We have a church in my town that’s right in line with Titus 1:16. It’s filled with unrepentant h*m*sexuals who have told God that they will be h*mos*xual Christians. They have accepted God on their terms and not on His terms. I took a look at those scriptures with the word reprobate and got a different meaning (than what I previously held) of them from other translations.

No, because I simply used these verses as an example of how the word “all” sometimes does not mean ALL. I am a OSAS proponent and I have looked at both sides of the issue. But believe it or not, I am not the Pope. I am not infallible. love it!

God said that He knew David “when his bones were yet unformed.” Before we cracked the DNA code, many Christians interpreted this to mean that God knew us before we were alive. While God knows everything knowable that He wants to know, He can’t know you if you don’t exist. That’s not possible even for God. God rested on the seventh day from all his creation. While I can’t build a fence that won’t fall down next year, God’s creation functions quite well without His intervention. God loves all babies at CONCEPTION whether they are girls or boys. Can God change a boy to a girl? I would say yes. Would God change a boy to a girl just to satisfy the capricious whim of parents? I say no. God would be more pleased if we got on our knees and thanked Him for a healthy boy or girl. God is not in the miracle business today. Whenever He did miracles in the Bible, they had a specific purpose—to show Pharaoh and convince Israel (for the “Jews require a sign”), to His Twelve as seal of approval, and to Paul (in the initial stages of his ministry) to show the Twelve that Israel had been cut off and the mantle had been passed to Paul. If you do a careful study of all the miracles in the Bible and the peoples’ response to the miracles, the miracles produced negative results most of the time. In the cities where Jesus did most of His miracles, they totally rejected Him. Why? Because most people have a hardened heart towards God. A miracle shoves the truth of God in his face and proves Him wrong. People do not like to be proved wrong. A miracle in my life doesn't prove me wrong. :D

#23 ikester7579

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 09:54 PM

I moved your post here so not to derail the thread over there. You post is the last one on the first page. I have no control over where the forum program places your post because it's in order of the date and time the post was made.

Ikester, I’m sorry I’ve misinterpreted you. Now I will address your post.


No problem, it happens.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:44). If we take this verse woodenly literal, we have to reason that the people who do not come to Jesus are doomed to eternity in Hell apart from their Creator God—simply because God the Father elected not to draw them to His Son.


God knows the heart of every individual, why draw someone whom is not ready to enter into a fake salvation that in the end can lead them to eternal damnation? God does this because He knows who's ready and who's not.

The phrase “raise him up” can’t mean judgment to condemnation, for then Jesus would be damning people who come to Him and Jesus said that he would cast no one out that came to him (John 6:37). And Jesus did say, “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL peoples to Myself” (John 12:32).


You are making osas sound like a universalism type belief in that all people will be saved regardless. I have been a osas believer at one time, I know it does not go that far.

Calvinism becomes unavoidable in that for some unknown reason, God the Father draws some but does not draw others. So if we compare John 6:44 with John 6:37 & 12:32, we have a violation of the law of non-contradiction. For it can’t possibly be true that God draws only some people and true that He draws all people at the same time and in the same way. The laws of logic are immaterial, universal, and absolute and as such can only come from the mind of an immaterial rational Being. Jesus said that “I am the truth…” If Jesus were illogical, He would be untruthful and would deny Himself. He can’t be illogical and remain logical and truthful. This is impossible even for God. In light of all this, can we dig a little deeper.


Like I said before, the determination of who gets drawn has nothing to do whether God wants them to be saved, it's whether their heart is ready to make such a commitment. In other words the time for salvation for each individual has to be right. And because we are all different that right timing is also different. If Dawkins suddenly realized he was all wrong, do you think God would not draw him because all that was done by him against God? Because if that's what you believe you are way off track.

2pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

First, let’s talk about being “raised up.” In John 6:39, 44, Jesus says that He will “raise him up at the last day.” In the Bible, there are two resurrections. The first resurrection is at the end of the Tribulation and it is for those who have not “worshipped the beast” (Rev. 20:4-5). And they will reign with Jesus for a thousand years (or the Millennium Kingdom). Revelation 20:4-5 specifically states that this is the “first” resurrection. One may ask: “Isn’t Jesus the first resurrection?” But Jesus makes it clear that He is not the first or second, but He states that He is “THE” Resurrection (John 11:25). (I am purposely leaving out the Rapture, because when Jesus spoke in John, He never mentioned the Rapture. The Rapture is for the Body of Christ and we are members of His Body. During His ministry, the establishment of the Body of Christ was a secret, was future and was contingent on Israel rejecting or accepting their risen Messiah. Now we may not want to get into the subject of the Rapture in this thread.) That’s okay but I just wanted to be clear.


The first rapture is the rapture of the church. AKA the meeting in the air.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The second and final resurrection occurs at the Great White Throne Judgment, when ALL the dead (minus members of the Body of Christ who are raptured physically and whose salvation is assured). See Revelation 20:11-15. Of course, Jesus also spoke of this same resurrection in John 5:28-29. And we must understand that this is a resurrection of physical bodies and only those in Hell will be judged to condemnation. Moses is with the Lord but his body is “of the dust of the earth” somewhere in the Middle East.


Second rapture is during the tribulation. When those who would not take the mark of the beast are killed for it. These will be taken straight way to Heaven and are given white robes. No one else that dies any other way during the tribulation goes to Heaven. In fact it is said that many people will try to bring death upon themselves (suicide) but death will not come and they only increased their suffering.

rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The third rapture is the Great White Throne rapture.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So, what could Jesus have meant when He told the Jews that they could not come to Him unless the Father draws them? Jesus warned that “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true” (John 5:31). In the OT, a matter was established “by the mouth of two or three witnesses.” And of course Jesus provided more than two witness besides Himself—His Father in John 8:18, His miracles, and Moses and the prophets and the whole of the OT. Jesus told the Pharisees that if they had KNOWN the Father, they would have KNOWN Jesus (John 8:19). By not knowing the Father, it was impossible for them to know Jesus. Jesus’ accusing the Jews of not knowing their God was an accusation that did not sit well. I have often thought that if I were alive during Jesus’ ministry, I would have liked to have been a Velcro salesman. When Jesus opened His mouth, the Pharisees tore their robes. A Velcro salesman would have made a fortune with Jewish wives. So, instead of interpreting this Calvinisticly and illogically should we interpret John 6:44 through not only other Scripture, but through the true nature of God—that He desires that all men be saved.


You keep bringing up Calvinism, are you a Calvinist?

I admit that you did not reject Him. But could you have rejected Him?


And I still can just as you can.

Ikester, notice that “God gave them over to a reprobate mind” because “they did not like to retain God in their knowledge and not because He did not elect to draw them to Him. God wanted them to come to Him. Right? We have a church in my town that’s right in line with Titus 1:16. It’s filled with unrepentant h*m*sexuals who have told God that they will be h*mos*xual Christians. They have accepted God on their terms and not on His terms.


I never said God did not "elect" to draw people. He did not because they were not ready in their hearts to do so. What type of a saved person would it produce if people not ready to make such a commitment were drawn anyway? God is about doing it right because this is a major decision.

No, because I simply used these verses as an example of how the word “all” sometimes does not mean ALL. I am a OSAS proponent and I have looked at both sides of the issue. But believe it or not, I am not the Pope. I am not infallible. When I am convinced that something is true, I embrace it.


Or could it be because "all" would not be convenient?

I don’t think I gave you a “loaded question.” I understand a loaded question to be the logical fallacy of the complex question. Examples: Have you stopped beating your wife? Why are creationists against science? And whether you want to get into this is your call. If what you believe is true, it would not take a TON of Scripture quotes to convince me..


And that's why I consider debating a person who is set in the ways of osas a worthless debate. As to the reason I really did not want to debate the subject with you. There is no point to it when I cannot even put what you believe into question unless I had the power to move Heaven and earth. I don;t have that power. And I'm not going to go to that much trouble listing a ton of stuff only to find out it falls upon death ears. You believe what you do and never take into account there would ever be any correction of it. Problem is with that type of attitude only God can correct you. And if you think about that, I would not want to be in your shoes when you get to Heaven to find out there you are wrong, That's not the place you want to find that out.

Sometimes I can guess that two men coming to my door are Mormons simply by the way they are dressed. And after I find out for sure that they are Mormons, I KNOW they are not saved. But in answer to your first question: No. I can’t tell if someone is saved by looking them. Jesus can, but while God can judge the heart, we can only judge the flesh.


We are not the judge. And we are not to judge. When we become saved it does not make us the judge of everyone else. And I would challenge you to provide the verses that say we are. This is one of the reasons a lot atheists hate Christianity, We judge them as if we have the same power as God, then we live a life not much different from theirs and they see us as judgmental hypocrites. And it's people that do this that gets everyone else categorized like this and therefore messes up any chances we had of reaching any of them. Did you also know that it's this type of hate brewed from this type is wrong thinking that is going to feed the attitude of people to hate Christians so that they will stand in line to help the anti-Christ rid the world of us all?


If I observed them for a gazillion years, I could not determine if they are saved. If they tell me they are saved, I still do not know if they are saved. I must ask them WHY? If they answer, “Well I’m pretty good and I’ve never killed anyone,” then I know they are not saved. If they answer, “I am saved because I’ve repented of my sinful life and have asked God to forgive me and I have confessed with my mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in my heart that God has raised Him from the dead. I know I am saved because God has promised me this in His word” (Rom. 10:9-10). Now I will make an assertion here that may upset you: The Christian gospel of grace as preached by Paul is the only religion that assures salvation by faith plus nothing. And if you don’t know you are saved, you are not saved.


Still does not work. Words don't make it so. A unsaved sinner can memorize what you just said and when you ask repeat it just to keep you from bothering him. Words mean nothing unless the heart is involved. That is why God draws some people and not others. If the heart is not involved in the decision they make what's the point of drawing them? If God only draws certain people because he wants those people only, then that's being bias and the judgment would be unfair because then the salvation that is supposed to be given as a free gift is only given to those that are chosen. And the gift is not free if some people cannot have it. It's either free for all or it's not free,

God said that He knew David “when his bones were yet unformed.” Before we cracked the DNA code, many Christians interpreted this to mean that God knew us before we were alive. While God knows everything knowable that He wants to know, He can’t know you if you don’t exist. That’s not possible even for God. God rested on the seventh day from all his creation. While I can’t build a fence that won’t fall down next year, God’s creation functions quite well without His intervention. God loves all babies at CONCEPTION whether they are girls or boys. Can God change a boy to a girl? I would say yes. Would God change a boy to a girl just to satisfy the capricious whim of parents? I say no. God would be more pleased if we got on our knees and thanked Him for a healthy boy or girl. God is not in the miracle business today. Whenever He did miracles in the Bible, they had a specific purpose—to show Pharaoh and convince Israel (for the “Jews require a sign”), to His Twelve as seal of approval, and to Paul (in the initial stages of his ministry) to show the Twelve that Israel had been cut off and the mantle had been passed to Paul. If you do a careful study of all the miracles in the Bible and the peoples’ response to the miracles, the miracles produced negative results most of the time. In the cities where Jesus did most of His miracles, they totally rejected Him. Why? Because most people have a hardened heart towards God. A miracle shoves the truth of God in his face and proves Him wrong. People do not like to be proved wrong.
TeeJay


And now you are preaching predestination. Have you ever considered that the ways that the laws in eternity work as for the reason everything is known by God?

Example 1: When you are saved in Heaven your name is written in the book of life, right? So in Heaven where everything is eternal you would be considered eternal saved, right? But on earth where we still live and die and nothing is eternal our choices can change, So if we decide to leave Christ and get removed from the book of life is not that decision in Heaven considered eternal because everything is eternal while here we could still change our minds because we still have choices?

Example 2:When we get to Heaven how will it be determined when we got there when there is no beginning or end to be measured in eternity? Will we have a time and date record of when we arrived there or will the laws of eternity make us as if we always existed there?

You see for eternity to be eternal all things done that effect eternity are considered eternal. But because we have freewill here we can change it here which changes it there, That is only because the laws we abide by here are not the same there. That is why when God speaks of things eternal such as knowing someone before they were even born is because eternal knowledge means they already exist.

Eternity allows an eternal being to know the beginning and the end as to the reason God can know prophecy. So it only is reasonable that God will also already know everyone before they are born. But because of freewill God does not know how our lives will turn out in the end because if He did what would be the point of allowing us to make decisions that are already known and just go ahead and judge us. It's because in order for judgment to be fair, righteous and Holy. Every person has to have a chance to make the freewill choice of salvation.

Also what is the point of all the warnings of what not to do if our lives are predestined and the warnings won;t make any difference? That's like telling someone the stove is hot do not touch it when it's not been on all day. That's a unwarranted warning and a deception.

So basically the Calvinist belief does not even go along with what is contained in Gods word because nothing really matters if we are all predestined in the first place.

Example: Why should I try to save someone when they are already predestined for Heaven or Hell?
Why should I have 4 online ministries that I own or help run when it won;t make a difference because everyone is already predestined?
Why should I even try to live a Godly life as a good representation of Christ when my representation won;t make any difference because everyone is predestined?
And on and on I could go.

Calvinism is senseless belief that takes almost every part of God's word, and all our works for the kingdom, and makes them worthless. In fact why should I keep up the ministries I have when predestination makes all my efforts worthless?

Maybe if you can convince me I can take it all down, leave this forum and go on vacation and wait for the rapture? After all it all predestined right? So why should I do anything?

Now you might think that's mean to say. But if you think about it that is exactly what a predestined controlled no freewill life is all about. We would all be living in a matrix where everything we do is controlled by another. And we become puppets and God becomes our puppet master. What else could a predestined life be if it's truly all predestined?

#24 MamaElephant

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 10:28 PM

It appears to me that the both of you are reading things into the posts that simply are not there.

For example, when Teejay speaks of "raise him up" not meaning a resurrection to judgment, he was saying that in that particular scripture this was speaking of a different resurrection, therefore he was not in any way supporting universalism.

And Teejay assumes that Ikester holds Calvinist views that he does not hold.

It appears to me that the both of you might want to think about what the purpose is to this debate and what it should be.

Goodnight!

#25 Teejay

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 10:24 AM

I start this thread because Teejay wants to debate on the once saved always saved (osas) doctrine. Anyone can post as well. If you believe in osas I must warn you that what I will be posting may shake your faith in that belief.


Hello Ikester,

I will be glad to dialogue with you on this important issue of OSAS (once saved always saved). Since we are both Christians, we should endeavor not to agree with each other or debate just to win a debate; rather we should endeavor to agree with God. And I submit that any argument that agrees with God is the true argument.

I did not necessarily want to debate this subject. I was responding to your thread, “How do you know you’re saved….” I only touched up the OSAS issue in my post—which I think was unavoidable. It would have been nice if you had responded to arguments I gave concerning Jesus saying that “None can come to Me unless the Father draws him.”



A little history: I started out as a osas believer. Went to a baptist church. But what made me question this doctrine was a sermon I heard on the subject from my pastor. He basically made salvation sound like a ticket to sin by saying that regardless of what we do we are always forgiven so we can sin all we want to and some people actually cheered. I'm like What? And at that time I did not know much about theology but I knew that was wrong.


A common criticism of Paul’s gospel of grace is: “If this is all true, then Christians can sin as much as they want to.” But this type of accusation is corroboration that you have preached a grace gospel. Paul presupposed the arguments he would get against his gospel:

“And why not say, ‘Let us do evil that good may come’? as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say…” (Rom. 3:8)

“What shall we sin then? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound?” (Rom. 6:1)

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?” (Rom. 6:15)

“For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity fro the flesh…” (Gal. 5:13)

If you are a pastor of a church, and you are never so accused as Paul was, then you are not preaching a true gospel of grace. Being attacked like Pau was is the litmus test of a true grace gospel.

I kept going to that church but eventually left and backslid for a few years. But that one thing always stuck with me. But I still believed in osas because I thought that was the only way salvation worked. But I started debating on another Christian forum that not only had intense creation debates but also intense osas debates (whether it was right or wrong). Both sides had good arguments and at some point I become neutral not really knowing what to believe.

But because this was a salvation issue I wanted to know the truth and I was not getting one from the debates and both sides having good arguments only made me confused, And I also wanted to know so I could be on the right side of the debate and hopefully lead others to the truth on this. about the same time creation in my mind was having the same issues (what to believe about it). So after so much frustration I decided to pray and ask for wisdom on these matters. And that's when the testing started.

God was testing me to see if I would compromise the word or stick to my guns or believing it literally. And boy was I tested at every turn like never before, In the middle of it I realized what was going on so that gave some comfort knowing it was for my good even though it seemed never ending. At some point God determined I was ready for some wisdom so soon my eyes started to be opened a little on both subjects. This took almost 3 years to get to that point. But I never gave up. So little by little I was being given bits of wisdom which is good because if I was given it all at once it probably would have confused me more.

Soon I could debate the subject of osas pretty good. People who believed osas would gang up on me and I would end up debating them up to ten at a time. But I was kinda already used to that because that was also about the time I used to go to atheist forums to debate creation and it's a normal thing to get gang up on there. If a creationist could not handle it they would crash and burn and many did.

But my diligence made me a force to be reckoned with concerning the osas subject and many wanted to debate me, argue with me in PMs and e-mails. And then suddenly I was flooded with a bunch of wisdom on the subject and was able to debate it to a point that one of three things would happen.

1) They would get mad.
2) They would call me names or even cuss at me for proving their doctrine wrong.
3) Or they would convert.

Usually 1 and 2 were the main responses. But because I was keeping notes on all the hundreds of debates I had concerning the osas subject I soon ended up with a big archive of information concerning the subject. Because I debated it so much I have most of it memorized and usually don;t have to refer to it.


If it’s okay, I will not address your “personal” testimony. I initially want to address some basics.

So let's start:

What is the most powerful verses for osas belief?

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Hands are not a representation of salvation. Being in the body of Christ is. Hands are about judgment. Right hand left hand judgment.
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And the reason there is a hand exchange is because there are 2 judgments. So either Father God will judge us or Christ. And the pluck out of the hand comment is about that no one will get by without being judged.

Misconception about judgment:
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

In order for osas to work the goats in this judgment have to be unsaved sinners. Problem is no where in God's word does it ever refer to goats and the unsaved. Look it up. So who are the goats? the sinners who get saved but never did what they were supposed to and lost their salvation. If an osas believer can find a verse referring to the unsaved as goats you can list it.

Misconception about the unforgiven sin:
In order for the osas to work only the unsaved can commit the unforgiven sin. But there are 2 problems with this:

1) The unsaved are already damned for hell, do they become doubled damned?
2) Having a sin that can block salvation to the unsaved makes sin stronger than the shed blood of Christ. And gives Satan a tool to block salvation before it is given. And makes what these people do here: http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/ more powerful than what Christ did on the cross.

So what does all that mean? Only the saved can commit the sin and it mean something.

Is there a verse that is an actual example of a believer losing salvation to the point of needing to be converted back? Yes there is:

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Brethren = believer.
If any of you = believer.
Err from the truth = straying from God.
and one convert him = conversion means loss of salvation.
Coverteth the sinner from the error of his way and shall save a soul from death = losing salvation, having his sins hidden upon conversion and saving a soul from death is keeping them out of Hell and the lake of fire.
And shall hide a multitude of sins = bring them back into mercy, grace and forgiveness.

What happens when you change prophecy in God's word:

rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

To be in the book of life one has to be saved, right? So to take them out of the book of life means they were in it and save so when taken out they lost their salvation.

Side note: Just so there is no misunderstanding I do believe there is a level of faith someone can reach that would make there salvation unshakable therefore it would be osas to them But until that level is reached there always that danger that exist. this is also why the Bible says to guard your heart and to build a solid foundation of faith.

Also in no-osas you don't lose your salvation every time you sin. This is because maintaining salvation is the determined by the condition of your heart towards God. So it's when Christ has become of no effect to you that this happens.

gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

We are saved by grace:

eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So when we fall from it we also lose our salvation. And on and on I could go.


Ikester, I agree that we are all saved by grace. Although the Twelve were under the law, Peter affirmed that “unless God cuts us circumcision people a little slack, ain’t none of us goin’ make it [in today’s vernacular]” (Acts 15:11). Peter was under the covenant of circumcision (a synonym for law); yet, he realized that unless God added a little grace to their works, they would come up short. Now this is a very important principle: God can add grace to works and law keeping, but He can’t add works to grace. Why? Because grace is a free gift of love, and if you attempt to earn it, it is no longer a gift .

You and I can throw verses at each other for the rest of the debate, and nothing will be resolved. For example: You can quote James, “What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has FAITH but does not have WORKS? Can faith save him?” (James 2:14). I can simply come back with, “For by GRACE you have been saved through FAITH and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God, not of WORKS, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9). No amount of rationalizations by either of us can harmonize these contradictory verses. How can we solve our dilemma?

We must first realize that God made two covenants with Abraham. Under the first covenant in Genesis 15, God put Abraham to sleep. While asleep, Abraham could do nothing except believe. “And he believed God; and He counted it to him for righteousness.” Fourteen years later, in Genesis 17, God commanded Abraham to circumcise. This is the second covenant.

The first covenant is the Covenant of grace which Paul would preach. Paul would also refer to it as the Gospel of Uncircumcision (Gal. 2:7 & 9). The command to circumcise is the second covenant or the Gospel of Circumcision (works plus faith). The Gospel of Uncircumcision is justification by faith alone. The Apostle Paul would write of this in Romans 4:

“Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin. Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of the circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised”

God, foreseeing that Israel may reject Jesus Christ as their Messiah, made Abraham the father of two groups (Rom. 4:11-12). Since God made two covenants with Abraham, not surprisingly, there are two gospels—the gospel OF circumcision (law and works) and the gospel of uncircumcison (faith plus nothing).

Galatians 2:7-9 is proof positive that there were two covenants in effect in the last half of the Book of Acts:

“But on the contrary, when they [circumcision apostles at Jerusalem Council] saw that the gospel for [OF] the uncircumcised had been committed to me [Paul], as the gospel for [OF] the circumcised was to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Cephas [Peter], and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the GRACE [GOSPEL] that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.” Gal. 2:7-9
Note: The KJV renders the passage in the most common manner, true to the usual function of the genitive case of these Greek nouns, “the gospel of (not for)the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of (not for)the circumcision was to Peter.” The KJV correctly translates these nouns as expected as genitives of description (describing the Gospel that was committed to each). Unexpectedly, the NKJV incorrectly translates them as though they were indirect object genitives. Even if this unlikely translation were correct, WHICH IT IS NOT, the point remains: there is the Gospel for the Body and the Gospel for Israel, the former based on grace, the latter on circumcision [law].

I submit that unless we establish that Israel (including the Twelve) was under the gospel of circumcision (law keeping and works) and that the Body of Christ is under the gospel of uncircumcision (faith plus nothing), we argue for naught. I will argue this to be true. I’m sure that you have counter arguments, and I will address them. And, of course, I think we both agree that Israel, along with their covenant of circumcision, was cut off by God for unbelief.

TeeJay

#26 ikester7579

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:16 PM

I moved your post from how to tell if you are saved thread to this thread and responded to it two posts above yours. I also explained why when moving the post to here your post did not end up last. It's because the forum sorts by date of post. And that date moved with the post from the other thread so when added to this thread it will be put into position with the other post here according to it's post date. So where it got sorted by date here is on the first page of posts it's the one at the very bottom of the first page.

So it's here and I responded to it.

#27 Teejay

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 03:18 PM

God knows the heart of every individual, why draw someone whom is not ready to enter into a fake salvation that in the end can lead them to eternal damnation? God does this because He knows who's ready and who's not.


Ikester, I should have answered this first. I did not see your reply to this until I had posted my previous post. I’m 76 and a dinosaur on computers.

I am arguing that it is God’s will that all be saved. Jesus said that if He were lifted up (on the Cross), He would draw ALL men to Him. So, as long as you admit that people do not go to Hell because the Father has capriciously decided not to draw them to Him, I’m fine with that.

You are making osas sound like a universalism type belief in that all people will be saved regardless. I have been a osas believer at one time, I know it does not go that far.


How in the world did you get “universalism” out of this? I did not mention OSAS. I used these two verses to show that God’s will that anyone go to Hell. Now can people resist the will of God? Yes! The Pharisees rejected the will of God by not getting baptized by John the Baptist. The Jews that came out of Egypt rejected the will of God and died on the wilderness flood in unbelief.


Like I said before, the determination of who gets drawn has nothing to do whether God wants them to be saved, it's whether their heart is ready to make such a commitment. In other words the time for salvation for each individual has to be right. And because we are all different that right timing is also different. If Dawkins suddenly realized he was all wrong, do you think God would not draw him because all that was done by him against God? Because if that's what you believe you are way off track.

2pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


You are avoiding my argument. I submit that you can’t interpret John 6:44 literally and reconcile it with John 6:37 & 12:32. And you set up a straw argument with Dawkins. It is I who is arguing that it is God’s will to draw ALL to Him, so that “none will perish.”


The first rapture is the rapture of the church. AKA the meeting in the air.

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


There is no “first” rapture. There is only one rapture and it’s for the members of the Body of Christ or those who are saved under Paul’s gospel of grace. The rapture is not a resurrection per se. And Revelation 20:4-5 states specifically that the resurrection of the saints after the Tribulation is the “first resurrection.”




Second rapture is during the tribulation. When those who would not take the mark of the beast are killed for it. These will be taken straight way to Heaven and are given white robes. No one else that dies any other way during the tribulation goes to Heaven. In fact it is said that many people will try to bring death upon themselves (suicide) but death will not come and they only increased their suffering.

rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The third rapture is the Great White Throne rapture.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Ikester, this may come as a complete shock to you, but Paul is the only person in the whole Bible who mentions the Rapture. The Rapture is for members of the Body of Christ who “are saved from the wrath that is to come [ wrath meaning the Tribulation or the time of Jacob’s trouble]” (1 The. 1:10). The members of the Body of Christ can’t possibly be those who have gone through the Tribulation.


Could you specifically show me how I gave any indication that I was a Calvinist. Me thinks you are avoiding my argument. It’s your original argument that was Calvinistic—that God was drawing SOME while not drawing ALL. Will you admit that you can’t interpret John 6:44 literal in light of the other passages that say just the opposite?


And I still can just as you can.


You’re avoiding the question. I did not ask you if you “still can.” You posted that your call was “uncontrollable.” So I will ask again: Could you have rejected His call?


I never said God did not "elect" to draw people. He did not because they were not ready in their hearts to do so. What type of a saved person would it produce if people not ready to make such a commitment were drawn anyway? God is about doing it right because this is a major decision.


But the purpose of witnessing to people is to make them ready. I am presently having a dialogue with a young man who is the son of a very dear friend. This young man was raised in a Christian home and when he went off to college he was brainwashed by his atheist professors and He now proclaims he is an atheist. When this happens, we parents and our churches must accept some blame. We teach our kids to believe, but not why to believe. And we do not teach them apologetics. The atheist professors slice and dice them. Should I wait until his heart is “just right” before I show him that his moral relativism is untenable? I think not. The Holy Spirit is not waiting until our hearts are just right. If that were true, no one would get saved.


Or could it be because "all" would not be convenient?


Not be convenient for what? Surely you are not arguing that ALL means ALL in every verse in the Bible?


And that's why I consider debating a person who is set in the ways of osas a worthless debate. As to the reason I really did not want to debate the subject with you. There is no point to it when I cannot even put what you believe into question unless I had the power to move Heaven and earth. I don;t have that power. And I'm not going to go to that much trouble listing a ton of stuff only to find out it falls upon death ears. You believe what you do and never take into account there would ever be any correction of it. Problem is with that type of attitude only God can correct you. And if you think about that, I would not want to be in your shoes when you get to Heaven to find out there you are wrong, That's not the place you want to find that out.


But will you admit that I did not ask you a “loaded question”? You accuse me of being “set in my ways.” Aren’t you set in your ways? How about your ears? Are they deaf? You wrote, “You believe what you do and never take into account there would ever be any correction of it.” Sounds like the logical fallacy of Special Pleading here. Suppose that when we get to heaven you find out that you’re wrong?


We are not the judge. And we are not to judge. When we become saved it does not make us the judge of everyone else. And I would challenge you to provide the verses that say we are. This is one of the reasons a lot atheists hate Christianity, We judge them as if we have the same power as God, then we live a life not much different from theirs and they see us as judgmental hypocrites. And it's people that do this that gets everyone else categorized like this and therefore messes up any chances we had of reaching any of them. Did you also know that it's this type of hate brewed from this type is wrong thinking that is going to feed the attitude of people to hate Christians so that they will stand in line to help the anti-Christ rid the world of us all?


For a person who does not believe in judging, you judged me “set in my ways,” debating with me to be “worthless,” having “deaf ears,” closed-minded to any truth, unable to take correction, wrong on my position before we even debated my position, and you even judged my shoes unworthy to stand in. Are you sure you don’t want to retract your admonition not to judge?




Still does not work. Words don't make it so. A unsaved sinner can memorize what you just said and when you ask repeat it just to keep you from bothering him. Words mean nothing unless the heart is involved. That is why God draws some people and not others. If the heart is not involved in the decision they make what's the point of drawing them? If God only draws certain people because he wants those people only, then that's being bias and the judgment would be unfair because then the salvation that is supposed to be given as a free gift is only given to those that are chosen. And the gift is not free if some people cannot have it. It's either free for all or it's not free,


If “words mean nothing, then why should I take what you posted here seriously?


And now you are preaching predestination. Have you ever considered that the ways that the laws in eternity work as for the reason everything is known by God?


If God wrote the DNA code, He can read the DNA code, and know David when he was yet unformed. But for me to be arguing predestination, I would have to argue that God knew David when he did not exist. Right?

Example 1: When you are saved in Heaven your name is written in the book of life, right? So in Heaven where everything is eternal you would be considered eternal saved, right? But on earth where we still live and die and nothing is eternal our choices can change, So if we decide to leave Christ and get removed from the book of life is not that decision in Heaven considered eternal because everything is eternal while here we could still change our minds because we still have choices?


No. You don’t have to wait until you get to heaven to be saved. Paul wrote, “If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED” (Rom. 10:9). If I believe that here and now, why should I have to wait to get to heaven to find out if that’s true? If I don’t believe it’s true, then I can’t be saved by it. We are living in eternity right now. This is not a dress rehearsal.

Example 2:When we get to Heaven how will it be determined when we got there when there is no beginning or end to be measured in eternity? Will we have a time and date record of when we arrived there or will the laws of eternity make us as if we always existed there?


If you have not accepted Jesus by faith, you will know immediately when you die? Why? Because you will wake up in Hell. You will not go heaven if you are not saved. In Luke 16, Lazarus the beggar was carried to Abraham’s bosom by the angels. The rich man died and woke up in Hell in torment.

You see for eternity to be eternal all things done that effect eternity are considered eternal. But because we have freewill here we can change it here which changes it there, That is only because the laws we abide by here are not the same there. That is why when God speaks of things eternal such as knowing someone before they were even born is because eternal knowledge means they already exist.


God’s laws that He gave and that we should abide by here are the same in heaven. God does not have one set of standards here and another around His throne, for “Righteous and justice are the foundation of your throne, O Lord,” as one of the Proverbs says. God knows everything knowable that He wants to know. He can’t possible know someone who does not exist. Nor can He grant freedom to us to accept or reject Him and then know if 50 years future that we will reject Him. That’s not knowable even for God.

Eternity allows an eternal being to know the beginning and the end as to the reason God can know prophecy. So it only is reasonable that God will also already know everyone before they are born. But because of freewill God does not know how our lives will turn out in the end because if He did what would be the point of allowing us to make decisions that are already known and just go ahead and judge us. It's because in order for judgment to be fair, righteous and Holy. Every person has to have a chance to make the freewill choice of salvation.


The Bible does not say that “God KNOWS the end from the beginning.” Rather it says that “God DECLARES end from the beginning. Big difference! God declares that He will make Jesus’ enemies His footstool. I agree that God can know a person before he is born (if He wants to) by reading the DNA code that He wrote. But He can’t possible know someone before conception. This is a pagan belief which comes from some eastern religions and from Mormonism. God could not possibly know that Israel would reject their risen Christ if He first gave them the freedom to accept Him.

Also what is the point of all the warnings of what not to do if our lives are predestined and the warnings won;t make any difference? That's like telling someone the stove is hot do not touch it when it's not been on all day. That's a unwarranted warning and a deception.

So basically the Calvinist belief does not even go along with what is contained in Gods word because nothing really matters if we are all predestined in the first place.

Example: Why should I try to save someone when they are already predestined for Heaven or Hell?
Why should I have 4 online ministries that I own or help run when it won;t make a difference because everyone is already predestined?
Why should I even try to live a Godly life as a good representation of Christ when my representation won;t make any difference because everyone is predestined?
And on and on I could go.

Calvinism is senseless belief that takes almost every part of God's word, and all our works for the kingdom, and makes them worthless. In fact why should I keep up the ministries I have when predestination makes all my efforts worthless?

Maybe if you can convince me I can take it all down, leave this forum and go on vacation and wait for the rapture? After all it all predestined right? So why should I do anything?

Now you might think that's mean to say. But if you think about it that is exactly what a predestined controlled no freewill life is all about. We would all be living in a matrix where everything we do is controlled by another. And we become puppets and God becomes our puppet master. What else could a predestined life be if it's truly all predestined?


If you are preaching against Calvinism, you are preaching to the choir. But there is really no use debating me on this because God has predestined me to win the debate.

Ikester, I’m not a fast typist, so I am going to devote my time to OSAS. If you want to continue this, I will endeavor to answer you. But I think we will probably rehash these in the OSAS anyway.

TeeJay

#28 Teejay

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 03:27 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331011683' post='81236'] It appears to me that the both of you are reading things into the posts that simply are not there. For example, when Teejay speaks of "raise him up" not meaning a resurrection to judgment, he was saying that in that particular scripture this was speaking of a different resurrection, therefore he was not in any way supporting universalism. And Teejay assumes that Ikester holds Calvinist views that he does not hold. It appears to me that the both of you might want to think about what the purpose is to this debate and what it should be. Goodnight! [/quote]

Yes ma'am!

TeeJay

#29 Teejay

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 03:33 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1330791666' post='81095']
These are the verses that I see as most powerful in support of OSAS:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 2:19 They left us, but they were not part of us, for if they had been part of us, they would have stayed with us. Their leaving made it clear that none of them was really part of us.
[/quote]

ME, Actually there are no verses written by circumcision apostles that argue for OSAS. At this point, I do not want to get in too deeply until I can show Ikester that Peter and Paul had two different dispensations from God. I will expand more on this with Ikester.

TeeJay

#30 ikester7579

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 03:36 PM

But there is really no use debating me on this because God has predestined me to win the debate.


Then you win. And I bow out.

#31 Teejay

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 03:40 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1330791895' post='81096']
This seems to contradict not only OSAS

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.--2 Corinthians 11:4

but also what Ikester taught me, that once one is saved he/she cannot be possessed by wicked spirits: or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received,
[/quote]

Is what Ikester taught you about being possessed true? Recall that King Saul initially started out good, accepting God, even receiving the Holy Spirit. But he ended up using a witch to congure up the spirit world, plotting to kill innocent David, rejecting God, and committing suicide. When we accept Jesus, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ and then the Holy Spirit indwells us. But just because He indwells us does not mean that we can't reject His will. People do that all the time.



TTeeJay

#32 MamaElephant

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 05:58 PM

Like I said before, the determination of who gets drawn has nothing to do whether God wants them to be saved, it's whether their heart is ready to make such a commitment. In other words the time for salvation for each individual has to be right. And because we are all different that right timing is also different.

This is my current understanding as well.

Ikester, I’m not a fast typist, so I am going to devote my time to OSAS. If you want to continue this, I will endeavor to answer you. But I think we will probably rehash these in the OSAS anyway.


Yes I am having a hard time with concentration this week, and finding the time to read this all, so I am slow with responses but I did read this far.

#33 MamaElephant

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 06:25 PM

ME, Actually there are no verses written by circumcision apostles that argue for OSAS. At this point, I do not want to get in too deeply until I can show Ikester that Peter and Paul had two different dispensations from God. I will expand more on this with Ikester. TeeJay

Is John not a circumcision apostle? Because those verses do argue for OSAS.

The Holy Spirit is not waiting until our hearts are just right. If that were true, no one would get saved.

I believe that I was being drawn for years.

God knows everything knowable that He wants to know. He can’t possible know someone who does not exist. Nor can He grant freedom to us to accept or reject Him and then know if 50 years future that we will reject Him. That’s not knowable even for God.

I agree. God can only know what he wants to know. He grants us freedom out of His love, and He does not refuse to draw us or help us... therefore he does not foreknow what we will do.

If you are preaching against Calvinism, you are preaching to the choir. But there is really no use debating me on this because God has predestined me to win the debate.

:gigglesmile:

#34 MamaElephant

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 06:28 PM

Is what Ikester taught you about being possessed true? Recall that King Saul initially started out good, accepting God, even receiving the Holy Spirit. But he ended up using a witch to congure up the spirit world, plotting to kill innocent David, rejecting God, and committing suicide. When we accept Jesus, the Holy Spirit baptizes us into the Body of Christ and then the Holy Spirit indwells us. But just because He indwells us does not mean that we can't reject His will. People do that all the time. TTeeJay

King Saul received Holy Spirit? Was the promise of indwelling in effect before Christ came? We can reject his will yet still be saved, because OSAS is biblical? I would have to disagree with this.

#35 Teejay

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 08:15 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331083720' post='81261']
King Saul received Holy Spirit? Was the promise of indwelling in effect before Christ came? We can reject his will yet still be saved, because OSAS is biblical? I would have to disagree with this.

name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1331083720' post='81261']
King Saul received Holy Spirit? Was the promise of indwelling in effect before Christ came? We can reject his will yet still be saved, because OSAS is biblical? I would have to disagree with this.
[/quote]

ME, I'm glad you disagree with this. I was putting out some bait. Anyway, I don't know if Ikester is serious about "bowing out"? If so, I am in the process of writing an addendum to my post # 25 to Ikester. The key to this dilemma is "rightly dividing the word of truth." Jesus gave Paul different marching orders to Paul than He did to Peter. This is why this OSAS never gets resolved. Opponents on each side cast verses at each other than cancel each other out--or so they think. Please be patient.

TeeJay

#36 ikester7579

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 09:35 PM

ME, I'm glad you disagree with this. I was putting out some bait. Anyway, I don't know if Ikester is serious about "bowing out"? If so, I am in the process of writing an addendum to my post # 25 to Ikester. The key to this dilemma is "rightly dividing the word of truth." Jesus gave Paul different marching orders to Paul than He did to Peter. This is why this OSAS never gets resolved. Opponents on each side cast verses at each other than cancel each other out--or so they think. Please be patient.

TeeJay


I am serious because with your comments I can tell that nothing I say is going to be taken seriously (It will take a ton of posts to convince me, God is going to predestined that I win). So when a debate opponent does me this way I do the same back. Which actually is a wasted debate.

Also, you can use your doctrine to prove osas but it's not being proved by the word. Rightly divide the scripture is a term used to make your doctrine look true and that you can twist it anyway you like. And because you consider yourself rightly dividing the word to an absolute truth can anyone disagree or are they consider wrongly dividing the word for disagreeing? In other word do only osas believers rightly divide the word? I just did a search kjv and it's not there which means it was made up.

I can prove what I believe using scripture and very little dividing if any. This is because the word has to mesh not contradict, Rightly dividing is where you try and leave contradictions and not work them out but instead take them and redefine them to support osas. Like the way evolutionists often try to rewrite reality to make evolution look true.

And by the way, is rightly dividing the word actually in the Bible, or is that a term thought up to make scripture conform to the osas doctrine? You see I often see osas believers making up terms that do not exist in the Bible to help them win debates. When you have truth you don;t have to go outside of the Bible and make up stuff. This is because if what you believe is truly supported by the Bible is not needed.

It's like the phrase that all osas believers like to tag onto those whom disagree. And that is we are working for our salvation. Or that every time we sin we lose our salvation. And so on and so forth. While I could respond along those lines and say osas is a ticket to sin. But what did either of us prove if we did that? But that is where the debate will go if things are not changed.

And the other reason I bowed out was how many verses that I posted did you actually directly address? Zero. But you will expect me to address all of yours right? You imply that you have so much truth that even God will help you win. Real truth can address anything directly and prove everything else absolutely wrong. But when you ignore the verses I bring up in favor of preaching osas you prove that your implied truth cannot hold up to scripture that would challenge it.

So if rules and common ground cannot be reached then to what point do we debate? You imply that you want to resolve the issue. Is it resolving it for me only to your liking or resolving it for yourself also? Because if your intent is one sided only then everything I say is a waste so why should I even say it?

So if it continues like this where everything I say basically gets ignore for everything you say then as far as I'm concerned the debate is over. Either start addressing the verses I post directly or you won;t have a debate opponent. And the next time I bow out I will close the thread.

#37 MamaElephant

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 09:41 PM

2 Timothy 2:15

#38 ikester7579

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 09:54 PM

So here's what I posted one more time. If you do not address the verses directly and explain them debate over.

What is the most powerful verses for osas belief?

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Hands are not a representation of salvation. Being in the body of Christ is. Hands are about judgment. Right hand left hand judgment.
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And the reason there is a hand exchange is because there are 2 judgments. So either Father God will judge us or Christ. And the pluck out of the hand comment is about that no one will get by without being judged.

Misconception about judgment:
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

In order for osas to work the goats in this judgment have to be unsaved sinners. Problem is no where in God's word does it ever refer to goats and the unsaved. Look it up. So who are the goats? the sinners who get saved but never did what they were supposed to and lost their salvation. If an osas believer can find a verse referring to the unsaved as goats you can list it.

Misconception about the unforgiven sin:
In order for the osas to work only the unsaved can commit the unforgiven sin. But there are 2 problems with this:

1) The unsaved are already damned for hell, do they become doubled damned?
2) Having a sin that can block salvation to the unsaved makes sin stronger than the shed blood of Christ. And gives Satan a tool to block salvation before it is given. And makes what these people do here: http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/ more powerful than what Christ did on the cross.

So what does all that mean? Only the saved can commit the sin and it mean something.

Is there a verse that is an actual example of a believer losing salvation to the point of needing to be converted back? Yes there is:

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Brethren = believer.
If any of you = believer.
Err from the truth = straying from God.
and one convert him = conversion means loss of salvation.
Coverteth the sinner from the error of his way and shall save a soul from death = losing salvation, having his sins hidden upon conversion and saving a soul from death is keeping them out of Hell and the lake of fire.
And shall hide a multitude of sins = bring them back into mercy, grace and forgiveness.

What happens when you change prophecy in God's word:

rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

To be in the book of life one has to be saved, right? So to take them out of the book of life means they were in it and save so when taken out they lost their salvation.

Side note: Just so there is no misunderstanding I do believe there is a level of faith someone can reach that would make there salvation unshakable therefore it would be osas to them But until that level is reached there always that danger that exist. this is also why the Bible says to guard your heart and to build a solid foundation of faith.

Also in no-osas you don't lose your salvation every time you sin. This is because maintaining salvation is the determined by the condition of your heart towards God. So it's when Christ has become of no effect to you that this happens.

gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

We are saved by grace:

eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So when we fall from it we also lose our salvation. And on and on I could go.

#39 ikester7579

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 09:57 PM

2 Timothy 2:15

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And I have no problem heeding to this. But who is the expert in this that everyone should follow? Osas believers only? Let's see if Teejay will address things and heed to anything.

And by the way would you care to address the verses I posted as well?

#40 MamaElephant

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 10:31 PM

A professed Christian that is not saved is a unsaved sinner. God does not categorize a in between position. And that is also shown during judgement

But these unsaved sinners attend church and are preached to. So these unsaved sinners could have been attending church and had letters written that included things that applied to them that were included in the NT.

For example, my church very rarely mentions hell in the main sermon, but the kids who are not yet saved hear about it more often. Now, my church does not define hell, so we define it ourselves to our children and that prevents any problems... but they do hear about it more often than mom and dad do.




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