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Cliché #2 - Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin


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#1 Fred Williams

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 07:45 AM

Teejay already said this better than I could in his post in the 'Cliche #1 - Thou Shalt not Judge' thread:

Now cliche's, once ingrained, take precedence over Scripture.  An example is I was attending a local Baptist Church.  The Bible teacher, who was a retired pastor, said we should not hate h*m*sexuals because God does not hate.  And then he gave the favorite Christian cliche:  "Love the sinner but hate the sin."

Privately, I gave him about three pages of Bible quotes where God hates.  (God can't love unless He is also free to hate.  If He did not have the ability to do otherwise, then His love has no meaning.)  And I pointed out to him that his favorite Christian cliche he quotes is not in the Bible and is a quote from the Hindu Ghandi.  I even showed him that God considers it hypocritical love to love those who hate the Lord:

“Should you love those who hate the Lord?  Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you” (2 Chr. 19:2).  Warning the wicked of the coming judgment is harsh, but is a necessary component of acceptable love.  A love that is not hypocritical rebukes and condemns, and then points to Jesus Christ.

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As Teejay mentioned, there are plenty of scripture where it is clear that God hates the sinner, not the sin. Simply do a search on the word "hate" and you will see. A classic example is Ps 139:21-22 "Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies." It is worth repeating 2 Chron 19:2 - "Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Therefore the wrath of the LORD is upon you."

Now with all this being said, we don't want to get too carried away, as there is some truth to the cliché, since there are plenty of verses where God also singles out the sin as the object of his hatred. God's relationship with man is a love/hate affair, He loved us enough that He gave his life for us, but if we do not accept his free gift and reject Him, He will reject us. Where we get in trouble with clichés such as this is that it becomes some universal truth for us despite it's being contracted by clear, plain, scripture. I do hate those who hate God, but I also love them enough that if I see a good opportunity I'll witness to them (James 2:13 "Mercy triumphs over judgment.").

If you are still clinging to this cliché, then ask yourself, is God going to send the sin to hell, or the sinner?

Fred

#2 jason

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 12:13 PM

you need to look at the hebrew idea of that first and then see.if the sin isnt repented of then yes the lord condemns us. the problem with your view is this For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son... surely if God hated men he wouldnt have done that.

in contexts its best to say God despises the sin and sinner who does that sin without repentance.this means that he must judge the sin and wont let unrepentant sinners enter into heaven as he must judge man.

i'm sure you all would agree that God didnt hate esau(its the same world used in greek that in the kjv is translated from love less to hate)
ie if any man hateth not his mother and father he cant be my disciple. now then is God telling us to hate our parents?

#3 Fred Williams

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 01:55 PM

you need to look at the hebrew idea of that first and then see.if the sin isnt repented of then yes the lord condemns us. the problem with your view is this For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son... surely if God hated men he wouldnt have done that.

in contexts its best to say God despises the sin and sinner who does that sin without repentance.this means that he must judge the sin and wont let unrepentant sinners enter into heaven as he must judge man.

i'm sure you all would agree that God didnt hate esau(its the same world used in greek that in the kjv is translated  from love less to hate)
ie if any man hateth not his mother and father he cant be my disciple. now then is God telling us to hate our parents?

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You are right, the use of "hate" with Esau and other places is a Hebrew idiom to express "more than" or "less than", or a favoritism. Jacob was favored over Esau, but we also know God is impartial, so we know there was some underlying reason Jacob was favored, in fact we get a clue of this given Esau's character.

As I said in a prior post, God's relationship with man is a love/hate affair, love for us that is indescribable, but hate when we reject Him. The point is, "love the sinner, hate the sin" is not a Biblically sound claim, its a cliche that is precisely refuted by verses such as 2 Chron 19:2.

Fred

#4 jason

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 02:54 PM

You are right, the use of "hate" with Esau and other places is a Hebrew idiom to express "more than" or "less than", or a favoritism. Jacob was favored over Esau, but we also know God is impartial, so we know there was some underlying reason Jacob was favored, in fact we get a clue of this given Esau's character.

As I said in a prior post, God's relationship with man is a love/hate affair, love for us that is indescribable, but hate when we reject Him. The point is, "love the sinner, hate the sin" is not a Biblically sound claim, its a cliche that is precisely refuted by verses such as 2 Chron 19:2.

Fred

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sadly most christians arent able to grasp basic theology. and we wonder why our american churches are in such decline. etertain rather than build up and exhort.

i see your point most christian music is that way. one song in particular has a line that is close to this. i am judas isachariot and you still loved me. really? repentance makes one a child of God. not God's love alone.

#5 Teejay

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 11:19 AM

=jason,May 29 2011, 04:54 PM]
sadly most christians arent able to grasp basic theology. and we wonder why our american churches are  in such decline. etertain rather than build up and exhort.

i see your point most christian music is that way. one song in particular has a line that is close to this. i am judas isachariot and you still loved me. really? repentance makes one a child of God. not God's love alone.

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Mark and Jason,

We can look at this dilemma in two ways--logically and Biblically.

Logically first: We have the free will (delegated to us by God) to love or hate, to reject or deny. Free choice or free will is the freedom to do otherwise. Why did not give us this free will? This morning I and my grandson had an in-depth talk on this.

I explained to him that love must be given freely. I cherish my wife's love because she is free to love another. But she chose me. I can program my computer to say "I love you." but it has not value or meaning. When my granddaughter says, "I love you, Grandpa." I melt.

Man having free will has consequences--good and bad. When God gave us free will, this is a big risk on His part. But having one Abraham trust and love Him is worth the risk--as God sees it. I wouuld rish much hate to have my Granddaughter's love. Also, freewill allows man to do great harm to others--murder, rape, theft, false witness. I explained to my grandson that when he see's evil in the world, do not attribute it to God; rather attribute it to evil men who freely choose to do evil.

Now having said all that, for some strange reason, we deny God the same freedom that He has granted to us--the freedom to hate or love, reject or accept. But logically, if God is simply a preordained God who is locked in to the future, we wrongly deny that God has freedom to hate.

We do this with the concept of God sinning. Many theologicans teach that God can't sin. But it takes no faith to trust a God that can't do otherwise. We should trust God that He will not sin rather than He can't sin. If God can't sin, then Jesus' temptation in the wilderness has no meaning. But the Bible says that Jesus was "tempted in all ways." Jesus did not bow His knee to Satan because He freely elected to show worship to the Father rather than to Satan. Jesus could have given in the temptation.

Where do we get this? This is a spill-over from Calvinism. But we must attribute this concept of a stagnant God to Augustine and the Greek philosphers who influenced him. Calvinish, carried to its extremes, denies that God can even be touched by love. From Augustine on, a required course for the clergy was Greek philosophy which introduced Greek fatalism into the church. Even C.S. Lewis, a Greek scholar was seduced, for he wrote in his book "Miracles," "We correctly deny that God has passions..." (Miracles, p148, 1996, HarperSanFrancisco). Lewis got this from Plato and not from the Bible.

Now Biblically: The following is what I gave to my Baptist minister. He did not accept it. The cliche trumped Scripture.

HATE THE SIN BUT LOVE THE SINNER

“Hate the sin but love the sinner” is probably the most quoted Bible verse next to “Judge not.” Even unbelievers know these verses. But, and this is a big but, “Hate the sin but love the sinner” is not to be found in God’s word. This quote comes from Hindu teaching and was first said by Mahatma Gandhi. Gandhi was a fool and is now in Hell awaiting judgment. We Christians should not look to him for wisdom.

Ambassadors for Christ

Paul warns us that we are “ambassadors for Jesus Christ.” If we are to represent Him, then we should present the true Jesus Christ and not a Christ we think He should be. When we read Jesus’ “Woe to you Pharisees” rebuke, we should know that we are not dealing with a Barney Fife. When we read Jesus saying, “Bring those enemies of mine here before Me and slay them with the sword,” we should fear and know that He is not lopping off the sin. He’s lopping off heads!

Love and Hate

God gave us the free will to either love Him or hate Him. One can’t have the will to love without also having the will to hate. Does not God also have free will—to love or hate? God could have created robots with no ability to choose. But then love would be meaningless. I value my wife’s love because she is free to love another. But, she chose me.

Does God Hate?

God’s word says that you can’t separate man from his sin (except through Jesus Christ): “As a man thinks in His heart, so is he” (Prov. 23:7). And God hates the sin before it’s committed. Contrary to what Gandhi believes, God hates the wicked. Let’s look at a few of God’s

“God hates all workers of iniquity” (Ps. 5:5).

“The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man” (Ps. 5:6).

“The wicked and the one who loves violence [God] hates” (Ps. 11:5).

“The face of the Lord is against those who do evil” (Ps. 34:16).

“God loves righteousness and hates wickedness” (Ps. 45:7)

“The Lord hates a heart that devises wicked plans, a false witness, one who sows discord among the brethren” (Prov. 6:16-19).

God reminds us, “All wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more” (Ho. 9:13).

And Moses wrote of God: If you do not obey Me, “My soul shall abhor you” (Lev. 26:27-30).

But That Was the Old Testament

As Bob Enyart teaches, some Christians today think that God was a mean old God in the Old Testament, but then He went to Government Sensitivity Training and became nice in the New Testament. And Christians today are trying to be nicer than God. But the word nice is not in the Bible. Christians should never ponder as to what Jesus would say or do. Rather we should read our Bibles and see what He actually said and did.

Jesus was the Rock of offence. John the Baptist, having a bad day, sent his disciples to Jesus to ask, “Are you the Christ or should we look for another?” Jesus said, “Tell John that the lame walk, the blind see, and many are offended.” When the Pharisees asked Jesus, “By what authority do you do these things?”, He refused to answer their question. Realize also that included in the answer to their question was salvation. He withheld it from them because their hearts were hard. When His disciples said that the Pharisees were offended, He said, “Leave them alone. They are the blind leading the blind. . .” When He came walking on the water to His apostles in the boat, Scripture says that “He would have walked on by them” because they deemed Him to be a spirit. They did not believe that Jesus could walk on water (after seeing all His miracles). He purposely offended His disciples when He said, “Drink my blood and eat my flesh.” He was telling them that for centuries they were eating the Passover lamb and He was the true Passover Lamb. His parables were turned road signs to confuse hard hearts. When the Pharisees walked away confused, He left them in their confused state. If they asked Him to explain a parable, He explained. His word was for “those with ears to hear and eyes to see.” He called Gentiles “dogs” and “swine.”

Hypocritical Love

What is hypocritical love? The Bible answer is, “Should you love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you” (2 Chr. 19:2). Warning the wicked of the coming judgment is harsh, but is a necessary component of acceptable love. A love that is not hypocritical rebukes and condemns, and then points to Jesus Christ.

Paul also warns, “Let your love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil.” Love is a precious commodity that should not be squandered. The lips that profess love for God should not in the next breath profess love for an unrepentant H*mos*xual molester of young boys. This type of love profanes God: “You call good evil and evil good.” “You put those to death who should be kept alive and keep alive those who should be put to death.” If you love everybody, then your love becomes meaningless. If we gave the Medal of Honor to all soldiers, then it would no longer merit a salute.

“Hate the sin but love the sinner” is a cliché. Cliches should not take precedent over God’s word. But, sadly, they do.

#6 jason

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 12:41 PM

Mark and Jason,

We can look at this dilemma in two ways--logically and Biblically.

Logically first:  We have the free will (delegated to us by God) to love or hate, to reject or deny.  Free choice or free will is the freedom to do otherwise.  Why did not give us this free will?  This morning I and my grandson had an in-depth talk on this.

I explained to him that love must be given freely.  I cherish my wife's love because she is free to love another.  But she chose me.  I can program my computer to say "I love you." but it has not value or meaning.  When my granddaughter says, "I love you, Grandpa." I melt.

Man having free will has consequences--good and bad.  When God gave us free will, this is a big risk on His part.  But having one Abraham trust and love Him is worth the risk--as God sees it.  I wouuld rish much hate to have my Granddaughter's love.  Also, freewill allows man to do great harm to others--murder, rape, theft, false witness.  I explained to my grandson that when he see's evil in the world, do not attribute it to God; rather attribute it to evil men who freely choose to do evil.

Now having said all that, for some strange reason, we deny God the same freedom that He has granted to us--the freedom to hate or love, reject or accept.  But logically, if God is simply a preordained God who is locked in to the future, we wrongly deny that God has freedom to hate.

We do this with the concept of God sinning.  Many theologicans teach that God can't sin.  But it takes no faith to trust a God that can't do otherwise.  We should trust God that He will not sin rather than He can't sin.  If God can't sin, then Jesus' temptation in the wilderness has no meaning.  But the Bible says that Jesus was "tempted in all ways."  Jesus did not bow His knee to Satan because He freely elected to show worship to the Father rather than to Satan.  Jesus could have given in the temptation.

Where do we get this?  This is a spill-over from Calvinism.  But we must attribute this concept of a stagnant God to Augustine and the Greek philosphers who influenced him.  Calvinish, carried to its extremes, denies that God can even be touched by love.  From Augustine on, a required course for the clergy was Greek philosophy which introduced Greek fatalism into the church.  Even C.S. Lewis, a Greek scholar was seduced, for he wrote in his book "Miracles,"  "We correctly deny that God has passions..." (Miracles, p148, 1996, HarperSanFrancisco).  Lewis got this from Plato and not from the Bible.

Now Biblically:  The following is what I gave to my Baptist minister.  He did not accept it.  The cliche trumped Scripture.

HATE THE SIN BUT LOVE THE SINNER

“Hate the sin but love the sinner” is probably the most quoted Bible verse next to “Judge not.”  Even unbelievers know these verses.  But, and this is a big but, “Hate the sin but love the sinner” is not to be found in God’s word.  This quote comes from Hindu teaching and was first said by Mahatma Gandhi.  Gandhi was a fool and is now in Hell awaiting judgment.  We Christians should not look to him for wisdom.

Ambassadors for Christ

Paul warns us that we are “ambassadors for Jesus Christ.”  If we are to represent Him, then we should present the true Jesus Christ and not a Christ we think He should be.  When we read Jesus’ “Woe to you Pharisees” rebuke, we should know that we are not dealing with a Barney Fife.  When we read Jesus saying, “Bring those enemies of mine here before Me and slay them with the sword,” we should fear and know that He is not lopping off the sin.  He’s lopping off heads!

Love and Hate

God gave us the free will to either love Him or hate Him.  One can’t have the will to love without also having the will to hate.  Does not God also have free will—to love or hate?  God could have created robots with no ability to choose.  But then love would be meaningless.  I value my wife’s love because she is free to love another.  But, she chose me.

Does God Hate?

God’s word says that you can’t separate man from his sin (except through Jesus Christ):  “As a man thinks in His heart, so is he” (Prov. 23:7).  And God hates the sin before it’s committed.  Contrary to what Gandhi believes, God hates the wicked.  Let’s look at a few of God’s

“God hates all workers of iniquity” (Ps. 5:5).

“The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man” (Ps. 5:6).

“The wicked and the one who loves violence [God] hates” (Ps. 11:5).

“The face of the Lord is against those who do evil” (Ps. 34:16).

“God loves righteousness and hates wickedness” (Ps. 45:7)

“The Lord hates a heart that devises wicked plans, a false witness, one who sows discord among the brethren” (Prov. 6:16-19).

God reminds us, “All wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them.  Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more” (Ho. 9:13).

And Moses wrote of God:  If you do not obey Me, “My soul shall abhor you” (Lev. 26:27-30).

But That Was the Old Testament

As Bob Enyart teaches, some Christians today think that God was a mean old God in the Old Testament, but then He went to Government Sensitivity Training and became nice in the New Testament.  And Christians today are trying to be nicer than God.  But the word nice is not in the Bible.  Christians should never ponder as to what Jesus would say or do.  Rather we should read our Bibles and see what He actually said and did.

Jesus was the Rock of offence.  John the Baptist, having a bad day, sent his disciples to Jesus to ask, “Are you the Christ or should we look for another?”  Jesus said, “Tell John that the lame walk, the blind see, and many are offended.”  When the Pharisees asked Jesus, “By what authority do you do these things?”, He refused to answer their question.  Realize also that included in the answer to their question was salvation.  He withheld it from them because their hearts were hard.  When His disciples said that the Pharisees were offended, He said, “Leave them alone.  They are the blind leading the blind. . .”  When He came walking on the water to His apostles in the boat, Scripture says that “He would have walked on by them” because they deemed Him to be a spirit.  They did not believe that Jesus could walk on water (after seeing all His miracles).  He purposely offended His disciples when He said, “Drink my blood and eat my flesh.”  He was telling them that for centuries they were eating the Passover lamb and He was the true Passover Lamb.  His parables were turned road signs to confuse hard hearts.  When the Pharisees walked away confused, He left them in their confused state.  If they asked Him to explain a parable, He explained.  His word was for “those with ears to hear and eyes to see.”  He called Gentiles “dogs” and “swine.”

Hypocritical Love

What is hypocritical love?  The Bible answer is, “Should you love those who hate the Lord?  Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you” (2 Chr. 19:2).  Warning the wicked of the coming judgment is harsh, but is a necessary component of acceptable love.  A love that is not hypocritical rebukes and condemns, and then points to Jesus Christ.

Paul also warns, “Let your love be without hypocrisy.  Abhor what is evil.”  Love is a precious commodity that should not be squandered.  The lips that profess love for God should not in the next breath profess love for an unrepentant H*mos*xual molester of young boys.  This type of love profanes God:  “You call good evil and evil good.”  “You put those to death who should be kept alive and keep alive those who should be put to death.”  If you love everybody, then your love becomes meaningless.  If we gave the Medal of Honor to all soldiers, then it would no longer merit a salute.

“Hate the sin but love the sinner” is a cliché.  Cliches should not take precedent over God’s word.  But, sadly, they do.

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you dont like cs.lewis? i havent read all his works to say what all he believed. augustine from the catholics i know didnt really support calvinism. beside calvinism teaches that God would and does send men to hell without given them a glance to repent. how does he do that? God doesnt reveal himself to that sinner and the sinner never repents as he nevers has that drawing in by God.

you missunderstand calvinism.

#7 Teejay

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 06:00 PM

=jason,May 30 2011, 02:41 PM]
you dont like cs.lewis? i havent read all his works to say what all he believed. augustine from the catholics i know didnt really support calvinism. beside calvinism teaches that God would and does send men to hell without given them a glance to repent. how does he do that? God doesnt reveal himself to that sinner and the sinner never repents as he nevers has that drawing in by God.

you missunderstand calvinism.

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Jason,

I love C.S. Lewis. I've read everything he's written (some twice or three times). But he did write this in his book Miracles and he was wrong. Why did he write this? The Greek philosophers reasoned that God could not change in anyway. Since He was perfect, they reasoned, any change on His part would make Him less than perfect. In addition to their god being immutable (can't change), they reasoned that He was impassible (could not experience a new emotion or be trouched by emotion). Their god could not experience anything new. He could not hear a new song nor hear a new story, or be surprised. But the Bible records God scolding Israel with, "It never came into My mind that you would sacrifice your children to fire gods [paraphrased]." Israel's wickness SURPRISED God.

Augustine originally rejected the God of the Bible because it did not agree with pagan Greek philosophy. He was an avid student of Greek philosophy. When Augustine read that "God REPENTED" that He had made man, this showed God having emotion. The Greek god could not have emotion. When Jesus wept, Greek philosophy taught that Jesus (if God) could not cry.

Augustine's mother brought her bishop (Ambrose) to convert Augustine. Ambrose was also a student of Greek philosophy and he persuaded Augustine that God could be viewed through the lens of Greek philosophy. Any passage that showed that God could change or show emotion was to be interpreted as symbolic and not literal. Augustine accepted God not on God's terms but on Plato's terms. Martin Luther broke with Rome but not with Augustine. He too was a student of Greek philosophy. Then Calvin took to to furthersa extreme, ergo Calvinism.

Calvinism, carried to its ultimate, presents God basically as a stone idol like Dagon. But at least Dagon could fall over in a strong wind. God's fate is locked in. I once asked a Five-Pointer if God could change the number of rain drops that would fall in Texas tomorrow. He answered that God couuld not.

I do not agree with you that I do not understand Calvinism. And I would be glad to discuss this further with you, but we are getting off the subject of this thread. Fred may scold us?

My favorite question to a Calvinist is: "Are there infants in hell?" and if there are, "What sin did they commit?"

I've had Five Pointers answer that there are indeed infants in hell awaiting judgment and will be there for eternity. What sin did they commit? He answered that God knew what sin they would commit before the foundation of the world. But i submit that God can't know you until you are born. God can't know the unknowable. And if you don't exist then God can't possibly know you.

TeeJay

#8 jason

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 06:27 PM

Jason,

I love C.S. Lewis.  I've read everything he's written (some twice or three times).  But he did write this in his book Miracles and he was wrong.  Why did he write this?  The Greek philosophers reasoned that God could not change in anyway.  Since He was perfect, they reasoned, any change on His part would make Him less than perfect.  In addition to their god being immutable (can't change), they reasoned that He was impassible (could not experience a new emotion or be trouched by emotion).  Their god could not experience anything new.  He could not hear a new song nor hear a new story, or be surprised.  But the Bible records God scolding Israel with, "It never came into My mind that you would sacrifice your children to fire gods [paraphrased]."  Israel's wickness SURPRISED  God.

Augustine originally rejected the God of the Bible because it did not agree with pagan Greek philosophy.  He was an avid student of Greek philosophy.  When Augustine read that "God REPENTED" that He had made man, this showed God having emotion.  The Greek god could not have emotion.  When Jesus wept, Greek philosophy taught that Jesus (if God) could not cry.

Augustine's mother brought her bishop (Ambrose) to convert Augustine.  Ambrose was also a student of Greek philosophy and he persuaded Augustine that God could be viewed through the lens of Greek philosophy.  Any passage that showed that God could change or show emotion was to be interpreted as symbolic and not literal.  Augustine accepted God not on God's terms but on Plato's terms.  Martin Luther broke with Rome but not with Augustine.  He too was a student of Greek philosophy.  Then Calvin took to to furthersa extreme, ergo Calvinism.

Calvinism, carried to its ultimate, presents God basically as a stone idol like Dagon.  But at least Dagon could fall over in a strong wind.  God's fate is locked in.  I once asked a Five-Pointer if God could change the number of rain drops that would fall in Texas tomorrow.  He answered that God couuld not.

I do not agree with you that I do not understand Calvinism.  And I would be glad to discuss this further with you, but we are getting off the subject of this thread.  Fred may scold us?

My favorite question to a Calvinist is:  "Are there infants in hell?" and if there are, "What sin did they commit?"

I've had Five Pointers answer that there are indeed infants in hell awaiting judgment and will be there for eternity.  What sin did they commit?  He answered that God knew what sin they would commit before the foundation of the world.  But i submit that God can't know you until you are born.  God can't know the unknowable.  And if you don't exist then God can't possibly know you.

TeeJay

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i have never heard that from any five pointer. i am friends with quite a few of them on this forum www.christianforums.net.

#9 Teejay

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 09:34 AM

=jason,May 30 2011, 08:27 PM]
i have never heard that from any five pointer. i am friends with quite a few of them on this forum www.christianforums.net.

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Mark,

I have heard it from a Calvinist on TOL. With this question, they are forced to face their main argument--God predestines some to hell and some to heaven. But if they answer that there are no infants in hell (those killed in the Flood for example), then why not? If God predestines them to go to hell "before the foundation of the earth," then why is there no infants in hell?

There is a Biblical answer--an answer that flies in the face of Calvinism: "[God speaking] Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it [Promised Land]" Apparently, God held none of these children guilty. If so, none were predestined to hell. (Deut. 1:39).

To remain consistent, a Calvinist must admit that some of these "little ones" are predestined to eternal damnation. God does not hold anyone guilty who is not under the law. We, in the Body, have been delivered from the law (or the knowledge of good and evil), as Paul teaches. We are not predestined to be in the Body; we must freely elect to accept Jesus Christ and then the Holy Spirit baptizes and seals us in the Body of Christ.

TeeJay

#10 jason

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 02:52 PM

Mark,

I have heard it from a Calvinist on TOL.  With this question, they are forced to face their main argument--God predestines some to hell and some to heaven.  But if they answer that there are no infants in hell (those killed in the Flood for example), then why not?  If God predestines them to go to hell "before the foundation of the earth," then why is there no infants in hell?

There is a Biblical answer--an answer that flies in the face of Calvinism:  "[God speaking] Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it [Promised Land]"  Apparently, God held none of these children guilty.  If so, none were predestined to hell.  (Deut. 1:39).

To remain consistent, a Calvinist must admit that some of these "little ones" are predestined to eternal damnation.  God does not hold anyone guilty who is not under the law.  We, in the Body, have been delivered from the law (or the knowledge of good and evil), as Paul teaches.  We are not predestined to be in the Body; we must freely elect to accept Jesus Christ and then the Holy Spirit baptizes and seals us in the Body of Christ.

TeeJay

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i can see how they would have either abandon that teaching. i am not a calvinist based on the idea that God must allow one to choose sin over him and he doesnt hold babies who never knew the law of sin acountable.

#11 MamaElephant

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 01:00 PM

There is a Biblical answer--an answer that flies in the face of Calvinism: "[God speaking] Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it [Promised Land]" Apparently, God held none of these children guilty. If so, none were predestined to hell. (Deut. 1:39).

That is a great point. I have really been enjoying your posts. Thanks.

#12 Teejay

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 08:03 PM

That is a great point. I have really been enjoying your posts. Thanks.


ME, Thank you! It's nice to be appreciated. In fact it has inspired me to get off my butt and do some more posting.

God bless, TeeJay

#13 artistic crusader

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 03:23 PM

Teejay already said this better than I could in his post in the 'Cliche #1 - Thou Shalt not Judge' thread:



As Teejay mentioned, there are plenty of scripture where it is clear that God hates the sinner, not the sin. Simply do a search on the word "hate" and you will see. A classic example is Ps 139:21-22 "Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies." It is worth repeating 2 Chron 19:2 - "Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Therefore the wrath of the LORD is upon you."

Now with all this being said, we don't want to get too carried away, as there is some truth to the cliché, since there are plenty of verses where God also singles out the sin as the object of his hatred. God's relationship with man is a love/hate affair, He loved us enough that He gave his life for us, but if we do not accept his free gift and reject Him, He will reject us. Where we get in trouble with clichés such as this is that it becomes some universal truth for us despite it's being contracted by clear, plain, scripture. I do hate those who hate God, but I also love them enough that if I see a good opportunity I'll witness to them (James 2:13 "Mercy triumphs over judgment.").

If you are still clinging to this cliché, then ask yourself, is God going to send the sin to hell, or the sinner?

Fred


The question is who is they? Obviously man cannot "stand up to God". The closest person who can stand up to God is Satan, who God does actually hate. God loves all of his children. He can't hate them to. Also unleashing Gods wrath on people doesn't mean he hates them. Did he not unleash his wrath on moses people? Yes.


Also God doesn't send people to hell. They chose it for themselves. That would be like sending them to hell as soon as they were born. Rejecting doesn't mean hate. I think you people don't understand what he meant by hate.

#14 artistic crusader

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 03:59 PM

Teejay already said this better than I could in his post in the 'Cliche #1 - Thou Shalt not Judge' thread:



As Teejay mentioned, there are plenty of scripture where it is clear that God hates the sinner, not the sin. Simply do a search on the word "hate" and you will see. A classic example is Ps 139:21-22 "Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies." It is worth repeating 2 Chron 19:2 - "Should you help the wicked and love those who hate the LORD? Therefore the wrath of the LORD is upon you."

Now with all this being said, we don't want to get too carried away, as there is some truth to the cliché, since there are plenty of verses where God also singles out the sin as the object of his hatred. God's relationship with man is a love/hate affair, He loved us enough that He gave his life for us, but if we do not accept his free gift and reject Him, He will reject us. Where we get in trouble with clichés such as this is that it becomes some universal truth for us despite it's being contracted by clear, plain, scripture. I do hate those who hate God, but I also love them enough that if I see a good opportunity I'll witness to them (James 2:13 "Mercy triumphs over judgment.").

If you are still clinging to this cliché, then ask yourself, is God going to send the sin to hell, or the sinner?

Fred


You're reading it wrong friend. The person talking in psalm 139:5 isn't God. The bible states that all of psalm 139 is "To chief Musician, A Psalm of David".

David is explaing how much HE hates those against God. It's not God talking. Wasn't David a very violent man? He would say that wouldn't he?

Also in 2 Chron 19:2, how does unleashing his wrath mean he hates them? He unleashed his wrath on moses people but he still loved them.


"is God going to send the sin to hell, or the sinner?"

God does not send them to hell. They chose to go there. From what I've seen on this site, misinterpreting the scripture seems to be a common thing.

God gave them the chance but he still loved them.

#15 Calypsis4

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 04:28 PM

You're reading it wrong friend. The person talking in psalm 139:5 isn't God. The bible states that all of psalm 139 is "To chief Musician, A Psalm of David".

David is explaing how much HE hates those against God. It's not God talking. Wasn't David a very violent man? He would say that wouldn't he?

Also in 2 Chron 19:2, how does unleashing his wrath mean he hates them? He unleashed his wrath on moses people but he still loved them.


"is God going to send the sin to hell, or the sinner?"

God does not send them to hell. They chose to go there. From what I've seen on this site, misinterpreting the scripture seems to be a common thing.

God gave them the chance but he still loved them.


Emotions described in scripture: love, hate, jealousy, or envy are comparative and one must not attach one absolute meaning to those words. When Jesus told Christians "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26) the hatred here is not the same hate as that of God for Satan and sin. But one who follows Jesus & leaves his family and/or parents behind may seem to 'hate' them when in fact he actually loves them in reality. I left my family behind years ago and it caused a huge rift that has never healed for over 40 yrs. It may seem to some that I have hate for my family even though the truth is that if they were to call me and invite me into their presence again, I would go running...quickly. I hate the way they live and so naturally they think I 'hate' them.

There is a sense in which David's hate for his enemies was a holy hate...a hate with sin as its object. It is simply a matter of understanding that 'hate' does not hold the same meaning in every context.

The Psalmist tells us later: Psalm 109:4 "For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
Ps 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love."

There is a hate that is NOT a sinful hate. Like God's hate for wicked reprobates that lived such vile murderous lives.

"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." Psalm 5:5

That is, those whom God tried to bring under conviction of sin but they consistenly and violently reject Him again and again no matter how awful their deeds are; call him a Hitler, a Nero, a Charles Manson, or a Sadam Hussein. That's the type God hates...without apology. But that kind of hatred is not sin. Neither is it for us.

However, the Lord enjoins us to love others, and that is the essence of the gospel. To love the lost and try to win them despite their attitude.

I suppose the best way to grasp this difficult matter is to use an analogy that applies clearly; Take the matter of temperature. People in south Texas think that a 78 degree summer day is cool and would enjoy such a temp. But those living in Yellow Knife, Canada on the same day would probably think it a horribly hot day and desire a more comfortable 60 degree day. Hot for one is not necessarily hot for the other. Cool for the one is not necessarily cool for the other.

Therefore..........hate in Christians who truly love Jesus as it regards truly vile wicked people...would and should include a willingness to help that enemy if he ever wanted or asked for it. It would include a change of attitude the very moment a wicked reprobate shows any remorse or desire to make things right. BUT...hate in a sinners heart usually means that the sinner would like his enemy to be dead. He doesn't want forgiveness and will extend none (commonly/usually).

The key in all of this is to not attaching the same meaning to words describing emotions because they are not all the same.

I hope this helps someone.

#16 Teejay

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 06:18 PM

[quote] name='artistic crusader' timestamp='1313189968' post='74051']
You're reading it wrong friend. The person talking in psalm 139:5 isn't God. The bible states that all of psalm 139 is "To chief Musician, A Psalm of David".
David is explaing how much HE hates those against God. It's not God talking. Wasn't David a very violent man? He would say that wouldn't he?[/quote]

AC, I'm sorry I did not respond to your post sooner. I got tangled up on another thread. AC, I posted a whole page earlier in this thread showing clearly that God hates the wicked. All of the psalms were God inspired. No? I think your real problem is that you don't think God can hate. Do you think God has the will to hate?

And yes, David was a violent man. But he was also a brave fighter. And King David was the one man in the Bible who God called, "A man after My own heart." I would be careful how you talk about him. You will meet him in heaven.

[quote]Also in 2 Chron 19:2, how does unleashing his wrath mean he hates them? He unleashed his wrath on moses people but he still loved them.[/quote]

"... should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you" (2 Chron. 19:2). AC, what this shows is that it's okay to hate the wicked. I had a assistant pastor in my church who taught that we are to love everyone "because God loves everyone. But if you love everyone, it's a phoney love and love then becomes meaningless. I hate homos who molest little boys with righteous indignation. And so does God.


[quote]"is God going to send the sin to hell, or the sinner?"

God does not send them to hell. They chose to go there. From what I've seen on this site, misinterpreting the scripture seems to be a common thing.[/quote]

AC, It would be nice if you went back to my original post where I listed numerous scripture showing that God hates the wicked and so should we. But you chose to ignore all but the two passages you quote here. Why?

"God doesn't send them to hell." How about, "I will cast them out of My presence" for one. When the wicked go to hell, are they going to have to provide their own transportation?

[quote]God gave them the chance but he still loved them.
[/quote]

What you just said in this last sentence is a personal opinion that does not agree with scripture. Again: Does God have the ability and will to hate?

TeeJay

#17 Calypsis4

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 03:45 AM

AC, I'm sorry I did not respond to your post sooner. I got tangled up on another thread. AC, I posted a whole page earlier in this thread showing clearly that God hates the wicked. All of the psalms were God inspired. No? I think your real problem is that you don't think God can hate. Do you think God has the will to hate?

And yes, David was a violent man. But he was also a brave fighter. And King David was the one man in the Bible who God called, "A man after My own heart." I would be careful how you talk about him. You will meet him in heaven.



"... should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you" (2 Chron. 19:2). AC, what this shows is that it's okay to hate the wicked. I had a assistant pastor in my church who taught that we are to love everyone "because God loves everyone. But if you love everyone, it's a phoney love and love then becomes meaningless. I hate homos who molest little boys with righteous indignation. And so does God.




AC, It would be nice if you went back to my original post where I listed numerous scripture showing that God hates the wicked and so should we. But you chose to ignore all but the two passages you quote here. Why?

"God doesn't send them to hell." How about, "I will cast them out of My presence" for one. When the wicked go to hell, are they going to have to provide their own transportation?



What you just said in this last sentence is a personal opinion that does not agree with scripture. Again: Does God have the ability and will to hate?

TeeJay



Yes, God does cast the wicked into hell. There is no denying it. "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Matt. 25:41

But God's 'hate' is not a sinful hate. And it is not the same feeling of bitterness and loathing that sinners and Satan have for God and the righteous. Like I said above, emotions described in scripture are comparative. A righteous man can love and hate a person at the same time; loving their eternal souls and meaning well for them while at the same time hating the attitude and behavior. Why is this that hard to understand?

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" Matthew 5:44.

The Bible teaches both, so don't emphasize the one and leave out the other, TeeJay.

#18 artistic crusader

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 12:14 PM

AC, I'm sorry I did not respond to your post sooner. I got tangled up on another thread. AC, I posted a whole page earlier in this thread showing clearly that God hates the wicked. All of the psalms were God inspired. No? I think your real problem is that you don't think God can hate. Do you think God has the will to hate?

And yes, David was a violent man. But he was also a brave fighter. And King David was the one man in the Bible who God called, "A man after My own heart." I would be careful how you talk about him. You will meet him in heaven.



"... should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you" (2 Chron. 19:2). AC, what this shows is that it's okay to hate the wicked. I had a assistant pastor in my church who taught that we are to love everyone "because God loves everyone. But if you love everyone, it's a phoney love and love then becomes meaningless. I hate homos who molest little boys with righteous indignation. And so does God.




AC, It would be nice if you went back to my original post where I listed numerous scripture showing that God hates the wicked and so should we. But you chose to ignore all but the two passages you quote here. Why?

"God doesn't send them to hell." How about, "I will cast them out of My presence" for one. When the wicked go to hell, are they going to have to provide their own transportation?



What you just said in this last sentence is a personal opinion that does not agree with scripture. Again: Does God have the ability and will to hate?

TeeJay



God doesn't send them to hell because he hates them. He sends them there because they chose to go there.

David was good with God. But his word isn't law. He was explainng to the musician how much HE hates Gods enemies. Not that you should too. Righteous or not, he isn't God.

Once again you read it wrong. 2 chron was Jehu talking to Jehosaphat. Not God.

"I hate homos who molest little boys with righteous indignation. And so does God." I think you're the one who is using personal opinions that go against scripture. You can't imagine God so you can't say that he hates the same way you do. He calls it an abomination. Yet he also says we should forgive those who ask for it. He hates the idea of a man with another man. But he does not hate THE MAN AND THE OTHER MAN. If he hated them, he wouldn't forgive them when they ask for it. Why would he hate a homo if he knew later that homo would ask for forgiveness? If a homo asked for forgiveness would you not oblige? Remember Luke 17:4.

Oh and yes babies do go to heaven. No matter what. Not because they would sin later. But because they were innocent. It didn't matter what they would do later because that would never happen. Not all baby dies because they would do something evil in the future. It doesn't matter if they would grow up to be hitler. They are innocent NOW. So they will go to heaven.

http://www.barr-fami...sword/babys.htm


You're assuming that God hates the same way you do? Maybe you should listen to Calypsis4. Here's what he said: "God's 'hate' is not a sinful hate. And it is not the same feeling of bitterness and loathing that sinners and Satan have for God and the righteous. Like I said above, emotions described in scripture are comparative. A righteous man can love and hate a person at the same time; loving their eternal souls and meaning well for them while at the same time hating the attitude and behavior. Why is this that hard to understand?"

Your hate for a homo is not the same as Gods.

His hate is more like a father punishing a child for his own good.









"It would be nice if you went back to my original post".

It would be nice if you started using verses from Christ.

What does one need to truly be christian? Follow Jesus teachings. Yet you apparently base your guidelines on a time when he wasn't around.


I want you to look at your wall of verses and then look at this one.

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" Matthew 5:44.

This includes homos. Jesus was not in the old testament. His word speaks higher than any man in the old testament. You can't base your ideas on the old testament alone.

God Offers Forgiveness

Every sin—no matter how large—can be forgiven and swallowed in God’s infinite ocean of grace. Just as God forgives those who turn from their wicked ways, so should we. God offers salvation to even the most wicked. 1 John 1:7 tells us “The blood of Jesus purifies us from every sin” (1 John 1:7). God is willing to forgive all!

And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. Luke 17:4







Indeed, Jesus Christ did not subscribe to "love the sinner, hate the sin" when it came to his own actions. He simply loved the sinner. Period. Throughout the gospels, Jesus loved -- and indeed hung out with and even broke bread with -- sinners such as tax collectors and S@xual outcasts. He physically touched those people who were considered too unclean under the Levitical laws to come into contact with "normal" society. In fact, Jesus was roundly criticized by the "respectable" people of his day for welcoming sinners into his circle of followers. He upset the religious and political authorities so much that they eventually arrested him and put him to death.

Jesus never made repentance a precondition of loving sinners. Rather, he loved sinners unconditionally, even to the point of risking his own physical safety in defending them from the self-righteous. (See, e.g., John 8:11.) This is a far cry from those Roman Catholic bishops who have denied communion to openly-LGBT people and their allies, as well as those Protestant ministers who have strategized with anti-g*y politicians in Uganda and other countries to impose the death penalty on s*xually active LGBT people. If any people have failed to "welcome the stranger" as Jesus commanded (see Matt. 25:35), it would be these religious and political leaders.





Jesus never said hate the sin, love the sinner. But you need to spend more time studying the life of Jesus because that’s the way He lived. In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus re-defined sin to a previously unheard of level, sayng that thinking about sinning is as bad as doing it, but He was frequently accused of fraternizing with sinners, and in fact spent most of His time with them. With the woman caught in the act of adultery, He refused to condemn her but told her to stop sinning. (John 8:11) Same with the crippled man the He healed. (John 5:14) He never condoned the sin, but He never condemned the sinner. His goal in dealing with them was always reconciliation



In the first place, we’re all sinners. But look at John 3:16, “For God so loved the world … ” and 2 Peter 3:9 “God doesn’t want that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” Jesus didn’t just die for those who aren’t sinners, but for anyone who would accept His death as payment for their sins.

But more importantly, didn’t Jesus die for you while you were still a sinner? And can’t any sinner, even now, come to Jesus and be forgiven? Why would He do that if He hated you, or them? He loves all of us and wants all of us to join Him in eternity, but He can’t force us to do it, because He’s given us the choice.

Please remember that God is not arbitrary. He can’t express any of His emotions at the expense of any other. In the Old Testament His Love had to be restrained because His righteousness couldn’t tolerate man’s sin. But when Jesus went to the cross God was reconciled to us and therefore free to love us. (Colossians 1:19-20) You can’t use Old Testament quotes to describe God’s New Testament relationships. The cross changed everything.






Indeed. God hates sin and satan yes. But to say God hates homos the same way that the westboro baptist church does? Persecute them insteading of helping them? NO. JUST NO.



"personal opinion that does not agree with scripture".

Based off of this sentence, I'm questioning whether or not you believe God can love. Let alone hate.

What God would lead a people out of egypt if he all but hated them? Why would he only hate the things HE created?


Nonetheless, I'm done with this arguement. My hands are extra hurting now from my joint disorder. I won't be reading your response.

#19 artistic crusader

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 02:19 PM

AC, I'm sorry I did not respond to your post sooner. I got tangled up on another thread. AC, I posted a whole page earlier in this thread showing clearly that God hates the wicked. All of the psalms were God inspired. No? I think your real problem is that you don't think God can hate. Do you think God has the will to hate?

And yes, David was a violent man. But he was also a brave fighter. And King David was the one man in the Bible who God called, "A man after My own heart." I would be careful how you talk about him. You will meet him in heaven.



"... should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you" (2 Chron. 19:2). AC, what this shows is that it's okay to hate the wicked. I had a assistant pastor in my church who taught that we are to love everyone "because God loves everyone. But if you love everyone, it's a phoney love and love then becomes meaningless. I hate homos who molest little boys with righteous indignation. And so does God.




AC, It would be nice if you went back to my original post where I listed numerous scripture showing that God hates the wicked and so should we. But you chose to ignore all but the two passages you quote here. Why?

"God doesn't send them to hell." How about, "I will cast them out of My presence" for one. When the wicked go to hell, are they going to have to provide their own transportation?



What you just said in this last sentence is a personal opinion that does not agree with scripture. Again: Does God have the ability and will to hate?

TeeJay


Didn't David have a man killed just cause he wanted his wife? Does that mean we should starting killing husbands and commiting adultery? By your logic we should since you assume that cause David hates his enemies we should to. No David is not the right role model for God. So please don't say he is.

God killed the people of sodom because of the wickedness itself. He even said if there is one good soul in sodom, he wouldn't have burned it down. If Jesus had been around then the city could have turned. Which is why the teachings of the old testament are not as well carved in stone as the new testament.

#20 artistic crusader

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Posted 13 August 2011 - 04:19 PM

AC, I'm sorry I did not respond to your post sooner. I got tangled up on another thread. AC, I posted a whole page earlier in this thread showing clearly that God hates the wicked. All of the psalms were God inspired. No? I think your real problem is that you don't think God can hate. Do you think God has the will to hate?

And yes, David was a violent man. But he was also a brave fighter. And King David was the one man in the Bible who God called, "A man after My own heart." I would be careful how you talk about him. You will meet him in heaven.



"... should you help the wicked and love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you" (2 Chron. 19:2). AC, what this shows is that it's okay to hate the wicked. I had a assistant pastor in my church who taught that we are to love everyone "because God loves everyone. But if you love everyone, it's a phoney love and love then becomes meaningless. I hate homos who molest little boys with righteous indignation. And so does God.




AC, It would be nice if you went back to my original post where I listed numerous scripture showing that God hates the wicked and so should we. But you chose to ignore all but the two passages you quote here. Why?

"God doesn't send them to hell." How about, "I will cast them out of My presence" for one. When the wicked go to hell, are they going to have to provide their own transportation?



What you just said in this last sentence is a personal opinion that does not agree with scripture. Again: Does God have the ability and will to hate?

TeeJay



God can hate. He hates sin, satan, and mans sinful nature, behavior, and attitude. But that is not the same as actually hating the person himself. Man is not all sin so God can't hate us completly. If we were all sin, we'd never get in heaven. We would be like the men that God killed in the flood and sodom. There is good in humanity. Just look at Peter and Paul. Just the parts that are sin. When God says he hates the deceitful and bloodthirsty man. That doesn't mean that the man is ONLY deceitful and bloodthirsty. God doesn't hate the man fully. Only the deceitful and bloodthirsty parts. If he is deceitful and bloodthirsty then explain what happens when he ISN'T like that.

I think you're putting words in my mouth and Gods. You say that I don't believe God can hate even though you sound a lot like he can't love.

God does hate the sin. The thing is sin is a part of man. You act as if sin is a seperate thing. Hating the sin would indeed mean that you hate a part of a sinner( but the only the bad part) but no. You must not hate a sinner for only ONE bad thing about them. Love the non sinful parts but hate the sinful parts. But don't hate the person without thinking about the good side. Jesus died for sinners. He loves the people who condemmed him. He did not hate them. He told God not to blame them as he was crucified because they didn't know what they've done. God doesn't hate us for something we don't everything about.

SO DON'T SAY HE DOES!

It would be a phony love if he never hated sin. Which is why he does hate sin. Hating the sinful part of man would be like hating a part of them if that's fine with you. But he hates it for good reason but it's the sin he hates, not the sinner. What God would hate us for something we were born with? Why should God hate us for something that is natural(sin)? He wouldn't be fair if he condemmed us and hated FOR SOMETHING WE WERE BORN WITH. Which is why God does indeed hate the sin. But its not the person who has the sins fault. After all he was born with it. It's fine to hate the sin.

please don't look to the old testament with looking to the new testament.

WHAT'S NEXT YOU START BELIEVING IN EYE FOR AN EYE?









If you still are clinging to this then think about it like this:

If someone has cancer,

do you hate the cancer or the person with cancer?




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