15 replies to this topic

[the totton linnet]

I am stuck in psalm 119 for my daily readings ooh the psalmist loves the Lord, he loves His statutes, ordinances, precepts. God's word and God's ways are so precious to him and he loves the testimonies of God's dealings with people.
I do too and I thought it might not be inappropriate to share some here, perhaps with a little personal reflection [unless the mods think it inappropiate]
I listened with awe to Bexies contribution about the muslim who found Jesus, alas I did not see the vid but I listened, I have an amazing imagination, I can see him all huddled in rags crouching in the corner of his prison cell crying "God forgive me, God forgive me."
What a picture of the human condition that is.
Suddenly the gentle tap on the shoulder, the strong gentle voice "I forgive you" That's it isn't it, that's the Jesus I know. Like St. John says "Moses gave us the law but grace and truth came from Jesus, and we have all recieved, grace upon grace.
THE GREAT AWAKENING.
The great awakening in Britain will always be associated with the honourable Wesley brothers, I do not have to impress on anybody the wonderful testimony it is to God's dealings with the church in Britain and America.
I wonder if we might look a little more closely at the very roots and origins of it and see if we cannot recieve instruction and blessing thereby. Do you long for revival? personal and public?
Wesley was imperious, a right stickler and was so to the end of his long fruitful life, he was not an easy man to keep close company with.
In his Methodist club at Oxford he had everybody doing all kinds of good works and arduous devotions they were going to get to heaven the hard way, running the gauntlet of the sneers and persecution of fellow students.
George Whitefield the young servitor just 18 was part of all this, long hours of studying the bible and godly books of the times, long hours of discipline and prayer and devotion.
As penance and self dicipline he would lie out in the frost for hours in just his servitor's gown. He did many a work of charity and the Methodist group at Oxford were known by the poor folk of Oxford.
One day he came upon a local woman in utter desperation, she was soaking wet, half running half stumbling along after her attempted suicide, she had tried to drown herself in the Thames but had been pulled out. What a tale of woe she had to share. George Whitefield was at a loss and distressed when he visited her with her husband in prison, he cried out to them their need to be born again according to St. John's gospel ch. 3. vs. 16 and after prayer left them with a coin.
A few days later George Whitefield met this same woman again and he was stunned for she was radiant with joy, he questioned her closely, "but sir," she cried, "you told me I must be born again and I have been, me and my husband."
George Whitfield returned to his quarters in utter perplexity, he had witnessed something he had never seen before and something he knew John Wesley had never witnessed.
Thus began Whitefield's own quest for this new birth, he found it some days later reading Bishop Hall's contemplations "Thou barest our sins, Thy Father saw us in Thee and would punish us in Thee, Thee for us."
George Whitefield had a thirst, he drank and drank but still he was thirsty and he remembered that Christ had said "I thirst" on the cross when His sufferings were near an end, Whitefield threw himself upon his bed and cried "I thirst, I thirst." His first prayer of utter helplessness.
When he returned to his desk he realised he was happy.
That my brothers and sisters was the start of the great awakening from that day forth George Whitefield began preaching the new birth through simple faith, simple receiving what Jesus had done on the cross and the crowds flocked to listen, the word went round, pretty soon he was barred from the churches as a huckster.
John Wesley came into the same faith a good deal later, he was at that time in America and failing badly. By the time he came came back to England all London and Bristol was in uproar through Whitefield's message.
Britain was a much, much darker place than it is now, the church was in a much colder condition but Whitefield and later Wesley's simple message of the new birth brought the people flocking. Don't ever buy this idea that Jesus is only for the holy few.
It was because the whole world was turning to Jesus that the authorities decided it was best to crucify Him, people flocked to Jesus, people flocked to the apostles.
People flocked to Billy Graham.
Now if the mods do not think this little post is inappropriate [and I submit to their judgement happily] I would like to share how a few other revivals started, the Welsh revival, Jonathan Edwards and not least the Salvation Army you will see how amazingly simple and the same they always are.
I think they do belong in the testimony thread. I hope it is a blessing.

[the totton linnet]

Charles Haddon Spurgeon
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I was chatting with my Pastor about revivals, ee don't you just love to? Somewhere the bible says [and it was during a low time in Isreal as far as the work of the Lord goes] "They who loved the Lord spake often together and a book of rememberance was written about them" That is what testimonies is all about, talk about the Lord and the great things He hath done see if there is no blessing in it.
In our chatting we had a little friendly sqaubble for I quoted C.H.Spurgeon's life and ministry as an example of revival. "Ah! but it was only a local thing and confined to his Metropolitan Tabernacle in London" he teased. I hotly disputed, for every Sunday Spurgeon would preach to thousands and many were saved and every Thursday his sermons would appear in print and millions of his penny pulpit would be dispersed throughout the English speaking world and many more would be saved, his sermons have been gathered up into volumes, such savour I recommend him to anyone.What I want to impress in sharing these testimonies is the wonderful way and the simplicity in which some of God's greatest works begin. Here is Spurgeon's own story
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I sometimes think I might have been in darkness and despair until now had it not been for a snowstorm one Sunday morning. While going to a certain place of worship I was obliged to turn down a side street and came upon a little Primitive Methodist chapel, there may have been a dozen to 15 persons there. I had heard about the Primitive Methodists, how they sang so loudly that they made your head ache, that did not matter to me, I wanted to know how I might be saved.
The minister did not come that morning, he was snowed up I suppose. Presently a very thin looking man, a shoemaker or tailor or something of that sort went up into the pulpit to preach.
Now it is well that preachers be instructed but this man was really stupid and he was obliged to stick to his text for the simple reason that he had little else to say, his text was "Look unto Me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth." Isaiah. 45:22.
He did not even pronounce the words rightly but that did not matter, I thought I saw a glimmer of hope for me in that text.
The preacher began thus "This is a very simple text indeed it says "Look!" now lookin' don't take a deal of pain, it ain't lifting a foot or a finger, it is just "Look!"
Well a man needn't go to college to learn to look, you may be the biggest fool and yet you can look.
A man needn't be worth a thousand a year to look, anyone can look, even a child can look
But then my text says "Look unto Me!" Ay!" he said in broed Essex " many on ye are lookin' to yourselves, it's no use lookin' there, ye won't find any comfort there.
Some say look to God the Father but no, look to Him by and by. Jesus Christ says "Look unto Me!" some on ye say "we must wait upon the Spirit's workin'" you have no business with that just now, look unto Christ the text says "Look unto Me!"
Look unto Me! I am sweating great drops of blood
Look unto Me! I am hanging on the cross, Look unto Me! I am dead and buried, Look unto Me! I rise again, Look unto me! I ascend into heaven, Look unto Me! I am sittin' at the Father's right hand, oh poor sinner look unto Me, look unto Me."
When he had managed to spin out about 10 minutes or so he was at the end of his tether, then he espied me sitting under the gallery.
Fixing his eye upon me as if he knew all my heart he said "Young man you look very miserable" well I did but I was not accustomed to have remarks made from the pulpit about my personal appearance-it was a good blow and struck home.
He continued "And so you will be miserable-in life and in death-if you don't obey my text, but if you will obey now, this moment, you will be saved."
Then he lifted up his hands and shouted as only a Primitive Methodist could "Young man, look to Jesus Christ, look! look! you have nothing to do but look and live!"
I saw at once the way of salvation, I do not know what else he said-I took no notice-I was possessed with that one thought.... I had been waiting to do 50 things but when I heard that word "Look!" what a charming word it seemed to me, oh! I looked until I almost could have looked my eyes away.
The cloud was gone, the darkness had rolled away and at that moment I saw the sun and I could have sung with the best of them "Oh the precious blood of Jesus."
Oh if only somebody had told me before "Trust Jesus and you shall be saved."

[the totton linnet]

God can be a right Rough and Tumbler when He wants, Jacob found that out one night when he arose and crossed the ford of the Jabbok, when he was left alone a man wrestled with him until the break of day, although the man did not prevail against Jacob he put his thigh out and Jacob walked with a limp for the rest of his life. It don't pay to mess with God even if it looks as though you are getting away with it.
I once read of a preacher who while he was preaching saw the local tear-away get up to leave the meeting in disgust and he jumped off the platform, the tearaway saw him coming and broke into a sprint and the preach ran after him, he caught him at the door by diving at his feet in a rugby tackle he said "I won't let you leave until you surrender to God." the tearaway did in fact get saved.
What I want to share in these testimonies is the utter gentleness of God, oh christian you are called to be as sheep among wolves, I think a sheep among wolves might behave himself somewhat prudently. God is a Dove.
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The Welsh revival
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In 1904 Wales had drifted as a nation far, far away from God, the spiritual life was at a very low ebb. Suddenly like a tornado the Spirit of God swept over the land, churches were packed and meetings ran day and night. Drinking and drunkeness decreased to such an extent that clubs and bars had to close, the crime rate almost dropped to zero and judges had no cases to hear.
Enemies became friends and family life improved. Even the miners pit ponies were affected, they were confused because their usually foul mouthed handlers no longer yelled and cursed them.
But there was little preaching, prayer and testimony and singing would sweep the assembled people in waves, hundreds would surrender their lives to the Lord and every where the awesome Spirit of God was sensed, in the streets and shops and on public transport. Within a decade the global impact of the Welsh revival was estimated at 10 millions of people being saved.
Florrie Evans was a 14 year old, she was so impressed by the holiness she saw in her minister Joseph Jenkins that she followed him home and asked for spiritual counsel, his advice to her was that she should surrender her entire life to God, later that week she was saved.
The following Sunday Pastor Jenkins opened the morning service for testimonies, a long silence followed, presently Florrie stood to her feet and said shyly "If no-one else will then I must say that I love the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart."
It struck like lightening, the Spirit of God began to move upon the congregation and one after another rose to their feet to surrender their lives to the Lord.
Those who were converted or renewed visited other churches and the work spread rapidly. When Evan Roberts arrived later in the year he was powerfully influenced by the enthusiasm and sincerity of those involved and he became a notable figure in the revival.

[the totton linnet]

How the East London Christian Mission became the Salvation Army
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By the mid 19th century the fires that had burned so brightly from the Great Awakening a century previous were beginning to cool somewhat, the Methodists, with whom William Booth was a circuit preacher, had itself become a rather respectable denomination.
Booth hailed from Nottinghamshire, when he arrived in London's East end he was staggered by the abject poverty he encountered among the working classes. He resigned from the Methodist "New Connexion" to form his own evangelistic outreach because he ran into opposition for bringing the poor and ragged people into the church.
The East London Christian Mission commenced work on the pavement outside Whitechapel road's notorious hive of vice "The Blind Beggar" pub.
Booth threw his hat down onto the pavement and started preaching to it the love of Christ, his pleas to the patrons within to "be ye reconciled" were greeted with a barrage of obscenity and missiles of rotten fruit, offal and at least one dead cat were hurled, but 3 persons were saved.
The following night he set up a tent in a field opposite and soon was preaching nightly and the work steadily grew.
One freezing November night he was crossing London Bridge with his son Bramwell and peering over the side remarked on the rows of cardboard boxes seeminly stuffed with nothing but newspaper he enquired what they were "why Father did you not know? the homeless men and women sleep in those boxes."
William Booth was stunned, he returned home in a frenzy of grief, pacing up and down and pulling on his beard he cried out in anguish "and you knew about it, you knew but you did nothing."
From that time forward the E.L.C.M. began buying up and renting warehouses and converting them into hostels, each hostel bore this sign "No man or woman need starve or to sleep outdoors or to beg or steal or to commit suicide-we will help you."
One day Booth was putting the final touches to the annual review of the E.L.C.M. with the help of Bramwell and his closest associate George Railton, at the top of the review was the heading "the E.L.C.M. is a volunteer army." Bramwell objected strongly to this "I am no volunteer, I have no choice, I must serve."
William Booth took his pen and ran a line through the offending words and wrote in their place Salvation Army.

[the totton linnet]

The Reformation
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The Reformation was the Reformation but it was also a great revival, nor did it happen suddenly but unfolded over a period of 2 or 3 centuries and yet when it broke with Luther nailing his 95 theses to Wittenberg cathedral it spread across Germany and Europe like a prairie fire.
As they led Jans Huss to the stake in 1415 a century earlier for preaching against transubstansiation he said "today you burn a goose but a hundred years from now you will have a swan you will be able to neither roast or boil."
Luther was an earnest friar, practicing prayers and fasts with zeal but his conscience troubled him " I tried as hard as I could to keep the Rule, I was contrite and made a list of my sins and confessed them again and again. I scrupulously carried out the penances allotted to me and yet my conscience kept nagging me."
The reformation turned upon Luthers new understanding of the epistle to the Romans and "the righteousness of God" what it meant and what people thought it meant. The usual understanding was that it spoke about God's great holiness as opposed to man's great wickedness. Luther came to understand that it spoke rather about the righteousness that God freely bestowed upon man through simple faith in Christ.
Reading the epistle he read the text "the just shall live by faith." and he felt the force of it.
Luther's writings show that the perception came little by little, but this promise seemed to meet the deepest need of his heart and understanding.
He came to see by and by that the true christian must not rely upon his ability to persevere, or his penances or carefulness. The righteousness of Christ was bestowed upon all who would put their trust in Him. Faith was the channel through which the grace of Christ could flow to the troubled soul and bring peace and new endeavour.
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[taken largely from Owen Chadwick's "The Reformation."]

[CTD]

As they led Jans Huss to the stake in 1415 a century earlier for preaching against transubstansiation he said "today you burn a goose but a hundred years from now you will have a swan you will be able to neither roast or boil."
Luther was an earnest friar,

Your pun or Chadwick's?

[the totton linnet]

Your pun or Chadwick's?

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Hi CTD, Noooo I know it was a long time ago but still is sacred, they are the words of Jans Huss and most people think it was a direct prophecy of Martin Luther.
I bslieve aso that Huss in slovakian meant goose.

[CTD]

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Hi CTD, Noooo I know it was a long time ago but still is sacred, they are the words of Jans Huss and most people think it was a direct prophecy of Martin Luther. 
I bslieve aso that Huss in slovakian meant goose.

I'm sorry.

The testimony of every true martyr is sacred. It it precious and powerful, and is not something to make light of. I deeply regret my folly.

[the totton linnet]

I'm sorry.

The testimony of every true martyr is sacred. It it  precious and powerful, and is not something to make light of. I deeply regret my folly.

*
Aw, you must think I'm a proper primster now, but no donuts for you.
And I did make a bad joke about the Titanic, there was at least one famous christian on board, I can't remember who. Southampton from whence she sailed is nearby and you can get into trouble for making Titanic jokes, there is still one survivor living there, she was a babe in arms at the time, so no donuts for me either

[chipwag64]

Thanks Totton,

I never get tired of hearing revival stories!!
Oh how we need a revival in this land!!

Chip

[the totton linnet]

Thanks Totton,

I never get tired of hearing revival stories!!
Oh how we need a revival in this land!!

Chip

Hey Chip
Listen you don't know what you have got in the U.S. and have had for some decades as far as I can make out, I did a post about "despise not the day of small things" how that is a much mistaken scripture, the points were right but all the while God was telling me not to post it [for I have a certain anger about some things-and God won't bless it] so I had to withdraw the post.
Amazingly if you had been an ardent Wesley follower attending a George Whitefield meeting or vice versa you might not have been aware of the mighty power of the Holy Spirit because the two men were split asunder in their theology each side casting denunciations against the other.
I have been at certain american evangelistic meetings in Britain when the power and Presence of God was mighty, and have come back into fellowship and heard the same meetings castigated to the ground by people who were there too but somehow were not aware of the Holy Spirit's Presence.
We don't have these evangelists in Britain, it's as dead as Do over here. We have only had christian TV for less than a decade. And as far as I can tell the best days of U.S. tv is coming to an end.
The thing is what people look for and expect, when you say revival to them, They know all about the great revivals of history [at least as the stories have come down] they think of people crying out for mercy and stuff like that, and if they don't see that they think there is no revival, I have read the stories very, very carefully and I have tried to show how that actually God is so gentle, you can miss Him. That's what I am trying to say with these testimonies.
Why the burning bush? do you think, because God had come down in deliverance power, but Moses was not aware, not until God spoke out of the bush, THEN Moses fell on his face-same with Jacob, sleeping with a rock for a pillow, until God appeared to him in a vision, THEN Jacob was filled with awe and worshipped, same with Elijah, there was the wind and the fire [and this is what God was teaching him] God was not in those things He was in the still small voice, you have to be INCREDIBLY humble, childlike and quiet to walk with God.
What I mean is these great shows of power ,I mean the ones God does, not what men do, are because people will just not know He is there in any special way.
You Americans make me laugh, really, I love my American brothers but it seems like sometimes they think power is shouting loud enough, or saying something to shock everyone and make everyone feel guilty.
I was meeting with some beautiful Sally bashers, and they are the best, they really are, right down to earth people.
There was six of us and they were wanting to get the Holy Ghost So they came to my room-I was working in their drying out clinic- and there they all sat, one in lotus position, one with his leg draped over the arm of his chair, one actually stretched out on he bed with his hands up palms outward, they were going to get the Holy Ghost.
I said suppose a knock came on the door, and someone went and opened it and there stood the Lord, what would you do?
The guy on the bed was already to dive under the bed at the mere thought of it, "I'd be out that blinking window" said the guy in lotus position and they all said stuff like that. But when they thought seriously about it they said "I would kneel down and adore Him" so I said let's do that then, see faith is not having the right doctrines only, it's what you do, but no-body really worships God unless He reveals Himself present- "When Jesus saw their faith...."
So we did, six of us kneeling on the floor "Oh Jesus we love you ,we adore you," Aren't you glad that christians can be so silly and child-like? We couldn't see Him but there we were telling Him how wonderful He is. Our hearts just melted s we were all bathed in His wonderful Presence-the glory came down-AND THERE WAS A KNOCK AT THE DOOR!!!
Everyone looked at me aghast..."well you can get that..." it turned out to be a bad lad who stole a purse and ran away to London but got nicked and because the clinic had secure accomodation he stayed there awaiting trial. He said in the broadest yorkshire accent "ah don't know why ah knocked" I grabbed him by the arm and yanked him in and said "well WE know why," before he knew what had hit him he was on his knees asking Jesus to come into his heart. He was the first of several inmates who got saved-wonderfully saved-God did such wonderful things there, and He used all the christians even some who dis-approved of the "goings on."
I share the testimony, I want to share that God is gentle-YES He can be tough, but it's not how He likes to be. I hope it's a blessing. Suz

[chipwag64]

Totten,

This country is going down fast.
Liberalism is seemingly all around us, more states are seeking to legalize same s@x unions, churches are allowing h*m*s@xual clergy etc.
You said it right though, "we don't know what we got".
The writer of the book of Ecclesiastes understood that all the riches in the world are empty and vain in and of themselves.
We are (were)? a rich people in wealth, but seemingly destitute in godliness.

Chip

[the totton linnet]

Totten,

This country is going down fast.
Liberalism is seemingly all around us, more states are seeking to legalize same s@x unions, churches are allowing h*m*s@xual clergy etc.
You said it right though, "we don't know what we got".
The writer of the book of Ecclesiastes understood that all the riches in the world are empty and vain in and of themselves.
We are (were)? a rich people in wealth, but seemingly destitute in godliness.

Chip

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I could write a library of books dear Chips, what you are saying is true but it is happening not because there have not been a loud and vociferous hellfire and damnation fundamentalist message, because there has been, you have just had the most unbelievably conservative government for the last 8 years [and I believe much good came from the Bush years-not least the prison outreach reforms] The fact is this hellfire message has driven multitudes more people away from the gospel and has attracted few. Now don't turn off at that point, become angry and dismiss what I say as liberal claptrap, at least consider what I am arguing first.
I say there is better way, think of this. Colossians. ch.1.v.21-22
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And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind [do you know folks like that?] doing evil deeds He has reconciled in His body of flesh by His death in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before Him.
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This scripture tells it like it is, it is saying that it was God who made the reconciliation not man, indeed it has to be so if man is dead spiritually he is completely cut off from God, he [man] has no capability by which he can make reconciliation and that scripture above is not one isolated verse every single place in the bible it is God who takes the initiative man-ward, it MUST be that way.
But there is a way of announcing this [watch this closely] which reverses the responsibility for reconciliation on to man.
Instead of the cross being presented as the gracious act of reconciliation and love that it is it is presented as a condemnatory message, I say first tell people that God, even though He is the aggrieved and injured party, has made the way for us to be reconciled now all we have to do is recieve it and accept it and make agreement with God-that is what repentance is-it becomes what it truly is a gracious invitation.
I.e instead of pointing out the people as sinners we point to the cross and say Look! the Sin-bearer.
But behind the message of the cross is the whole, huge slice of the gospel that just IS not getting to people AT all i.e. the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus came preaching "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand" that is a very good reason for people to repent isn't it? You might be a murderer on death row on your last day, the President [the highest power in the land] has said you will die today and your life will be snuffed out and into eternity you must go-I've got good news for you, "the kingdom of God is at hand" there is a higher authority than the President.
Now in all my seeings and observance of the charismatic "faith" movements I see a mistake being made in that they claim many promises that are really not made to this age but to the next age, however that may be there ARE many, many promises that are made to this present gospel age, they are many and enormous promises and provisions which might include say healing, provision, an ever present help in time of need [do you know anybody who might need to hear about these things?] That's the good news of the kingdom of heaven that Jesus came preaching-HOW CAN YOU KNOW?- because that's what He did among the people.
Here is Jesu's manifesto
The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me because He has anointed Me
to proclaim good news to the poor, He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty those who are oppressed, and to proclaim the year of the Lord's favour. Lu: c.4. E.S.V.
When the angels announced His birth the announcement was "Glory to God in the highest peace, goodwill among men" That's God message.
See this message of God is so hard to believe, if a man had said it those shepherds would not have batted an eye so He sent the angels to proclaim it, and boy you should have seen those shepherds scurry.
Go to read again the sermons of Paul in Acts-even Peter's messages and he was speaking mostly to religious folk Go to, Go to I say, see if you can find this lurid hell-fire message so beloved of the extreme fundies, see for yourself if the gospel is a message of condemnation or a gracious invitation to be reconciled with God, seeing He has already made the way possible sending His own Son to take our sins AND the punishment for them upon Himself.
I will tell you why the hell fire and damnation message is easier to preach-and this may hurt-because we don't have the power of God in our own lives to make a good profession of it ourselves-ouch, that hurts.
Just as you can't preach holiness if you are not living it so too you can't preach the kingdom if you are not living that, WHAT DO I MEAN? how can you preach healing? if you yourself are not healed or if you don't have the assurance of knowing that when you announce it as part of the gospel message, part of Jesu's manifesto, part of the blessings of God's kingdom "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" any sickness in heaven? any poverty? How can you tell about the joy and peace and burning love? if you don't have those things
Now we each and everyone of us fall short here, and ME, and ME, I fall short, I cry and cry but I fall short.
But don't turn our short comings around on everyone else by throwing up blocks and barriers so as to prevent THEM from entering in.
We do have SOME measure of the kingdom blessings, share what we have and MORE than we have, I believe in preaching healing and stuff even before we see any manifestation of it why? because the gospel IS the power of God it IS the power that brings it to pass, yuh when people believe, but how will THEY believe when 70 per cent of the church doesn't believe, no, no, it's much easier to blast everyone to hell then the question of any kingdom blessings and the power to attain to them doesn't even arise.
My brother it's easy peasy to stand on a box and tell people they are sinners and going to hell- I preach in the open air, I know-You are telling the truth after all, but to reach out your hands in love, to speak to people God's peace [when their lives are anything but peace] to promise them, on behalf of God as His messengers and ambassadors blessings and help which of ourselves we our not able to perform but are entirely dependant upon the Holy Spirit to back us up. This takes a great deal more discipleship and prayer and study.
Don't BUY this message that Jesus is just for a few holy bods, when the message is right, they will come flocking. When the [queen bee] gives the appropiate signal the swarm will cluster. Then the church will stop swinging between two revelations and two messages in conflict with each other and hold steady to the good report and the church will see great manifestations of power. REAL miracles, real healing, and the people will learn once more to walk in righteousness.

[the totton linnet]

I'm gonna do a little anticipationalism here because somebody right now is thinking "yeah, yeah, it's the false prophet who will say Peace, peace when there is no peace."
In Hyde Park, London of a Sunday pm for every preacher of the gospel there are a dozen or so hecklers, there are preachers who have been going for 30 years and more and there are hecklers who have been going for 50 years, these blokes are good let me tell you, I will one day I write a book, one day preaching I made a fatal error, surrounded by atheists I said "you can mock, they mocked my Lord, they spat on Him, so I don't care even if you all spit on me" so they all did, they all gathered the gob in their mouths and let fly
Now I was preaching one day [and I'm taking this serpent by the tail and coming at it from a reverse argument-right] and there was this real wicky old guy in the crowd who we all knew and I says "He came preaching peace, peace to those who are afar off, peace to those who are near, but there is no peace, saith my God to the wicked." And now there also was this sweetmeat gentleheart liberalist christian girl who when she heard me say this she pulled his "poor ol' fella" aside and delared loudly for all to hear "aw don't listen to these people they just frown down on everyone and try to put everyone under condemnation" of course this gives the ol' guy a bit of ammo and he comes back at me "why are you trying to put me under condemnation?" I said "how?" he said "you said there is no peace to the wicked says God."
"But" I said "Peace, peace to those who are afar off [that's you ain't it?] peace to those who are near, why then it is YOU who have placed yourself among the wicked not me."
There is this strange -well mebbe not so strange- propensity even among christians to zero in on the bad bits.
We preach about the talents and we know it's ALL gonna be about the guy who went and hid his talent in a knapsack, its very important to preach that but what about the other two who went and invested wisely and came rejoicing?
We say "ah what-so-ever a man shall sow that shall he also reap." wow here comes a real red hotten hellfire sermon [she waves her hands to cool them] reaping death and corruption and all from sowing in the flesh, but what about the portion of the one who sows into the Spirit and reaping eternal life?
We say yes but Jesus talked more about hell than the kingdom of God, well....isn't that to overlook whole swathes of the gospel narrative where maybe the words kingdom of God is not mentioned but is being described or even being manifested in the ministry of Christ among the people, I mean the feeding of the 5,000 alone galvanised the whole multitude into wanting to seize Jesus and make Him king on the spot, ooh that got the disciples bottle quacking that miracle "what must we do that WE might work the works of God." Nowadays we are told not to chase those "loaves and fishes" ministries. Just look at the most wonderful teachings St. John was able to bring out of that miracle "bread from heaven."

[chipwag64]

Totten,

It wasn't too soon after I became a believer, that I saw time and time again the error of extremism.
It seemed that when I was trying to grow in faith and knowledge of God and His word that I was constantly being urged to both extremes between licenciousness and legalism, "God is all love" and "God is filled with wrath".
My brother just had a most terrible experience over many years sitting under exactly what you are talking about and only just recently had to leave the state with great concerns about being pursued, harrassed and called "an apostate of the faith" by these people; so I know where you are coming from.
BUT, as I mentioned in another topic, you can't sway too far to the other extreme either, it's all about balance.
I don't know what you consider a "hell-fire message", but the vast majority of people I speak with consider themselves pretty good people.
They believe that all we need to do is our best and God will accept that.
This comes from "Christians" and unbelievers who believe that there MAY be a God, but they're certainly not uncomfortable with their meeting Him at the judgement!!
People don't seem to understand the Biblical doctrine of original sin, as if sin is just some bad things that we do. If we just cut down on the bad stuff and be nice to others, God will not send us to hell.
That is what I hear, over and over again.
So, these people need to understand the great seriousness of their sin nature, they already are ASSURED that God loves them, that's the whole problem!!!.

When I share the gospel, I try to meet people where they are at.
If they are grieved at their sin condition, I don't beat them down further; if they are cocky and proud, they need to be told the reality of eternal judgement.
Last year we used to preach at an abortion clinic.
I won't mention denominational names, but there was always a presence of these "Christians" who would use those very tactics to try and scare these women into changing their minds and not enter the clinic.
They would also threaten and harass the escorts who took the women in, and called them names; no surprise that not one woman that I saw turned back.
We, on the other hand, just stood apart and read God's word. We read about God the Creator, God the Judge and God the Savior.
I believe firmly that the gospel message is incomplete if there is no mention of God's wrath towards unrepentant sinners; and also the omission of God's love and grace.

Chip

[the totton linnet]

Totten,

It wasn't too soon after I became a believer, that I saw time and time again the error of extremism.
It seemed that when I was trying to grow in faith and knowledge of God and His word that I was constantly being urged to both extremes between licenciousness and legalism, "God is all love" and "God is filled with wrath".
My brother just had a most terrible experience over many years sitting under exactly what you are talking about and only just recently had to leave the state with great concerns about being pursued, harrassed and called "an apostate of the faith" by these people; so I know where you are coming from.
BUT, as I mentioned in another topic, you can't sway too far to the other extreme either, it's all about balance.
I don't know what you consider a "hell-fire message", but the vast majority of people I speak with consider themselves pretty good people.
They believe that all we need to do is our best and God will accept that.
This comes from "Christians" and unbelievers who believe that there MAY be a God, but they're certainly not uncomfortable with their meeting Him at the judgement!!
People don't seem to understand the Biblical doctrine of original sin, as if sin is just some bad things that we do. If we just cut down on the bad stuff and be nice to others, God will not send us to hell.
That is what I hear, over and over again.
So, these people need to understand the great seriousness of their sin nature, they already are ASSURED that God loves them, that's the whole problem!!!.

When I share the gospel, I try to meet people where they are at.
If they are grieved at their sin condition, I don't beat them down further; if they are cocky and proud, they need to be told the reality of eternal judgement.
Last year we used to preach at an abortion clinic.
I won't mention denominational names, but there was always a presence of these "Christians" who would use those very tactics to try and scare these women into changing their minds and not enter the clinic.
They would also threaten and harass the escorts who took the women in, and called them names; no surprise that not one woman that I saw turned back.
We, on the other hand, just stood apart and read God's word. We read about God the Creator, God the Judge and God the Savior.
I believe firmly that the gospel message is incomplete if there is no mention of God's wrath towards unrepentant sinners; and also the omission of God's love and grace.

Chip

Yes don't please think I am preaching at you, God forbid, yes those scenes at the abortion clinics reach even to our news slots, all it has done is to strengthen the hand of the enemy, the same as when they rally against the homos, that is exactly why you are experiencing in the US this liberal backlash.
It's not the way to go, "for we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers and the host of wickedness in the high places."
This kind of war is conducted in the spirit world, does spiritual warfare work? yes it does, but it needs to be accompanied by the gospel.
God's wrath hmmm it's a huge subject, exactly what God's wrath is, it's maybe too big to discuss on a forum-but it has to do with the curse that has come upon creation because of sin, it doesn't mean God is frowning down at people [individuals] but in a way it is what is all gone awry in people's lives, it's to do with poverty, sickness and disease, intransigent problems ,sorrow, distress, everything that is evil and eating away at man and women. But the sin and the curse of sin is the same thing, it all has to do with death and the realm or dominion of death and it is administered through the law of sin and death [not the 10 commandments per se] "Now He Who knew no sin became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God" but when He became sin, He also became the curse for sin. This makes for a much fuller gospel than is generally preached, it includes remedy and provision for our needs Isaiah 53v1-6 ALL our needs. There IS anly one last enemy to be conquered and that is death, EVERYTHING else has been put under His feet [at least the provision for that has been made] Now the power to bring all this about is in the gospel proclamation, the gospel, the good news IS the power of God, somebody prayed "oh Lord send Your power" but the gospel IS the power of God when it is preached aright and in it's fulness.
Now there are ministries we know that preach this message, and we might not go into all that is going on in the "faith movement" which hinders the actual manifestation of the demonstration or authentication of the message by the Holy Ghost. But if our hearts were right we would not have our eyes on the men and their foibles nd fancies and weaknesses, we would have our eyes firmly fixed on God and the word of God and we would not quit [and God is not going to quit] until we are in full possession of the inheritance that belongs to the children of God.
This is the gospel of the kingdom and if it comes in power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost people WILL believe and turn.
How do I know that? because they always have, from the earliest church days through to Asuza St down to today, EVERYBODY?? no, not everybody but multitudes both of men and women, and enough to turn the tide of wickedness. It's happening in Africa by the way.
Do you realize how difficult it is to guage the impact of Wesley? [we know God through Wesley] on society, if you just took the Salvation Army alone which was like a 2nd wave, then there is the political development that came from that in social and welfare reform.
And who can guage the impact on society of Asuza st? in a hundred years. These are great doings of God. Take courage my brother. but the church still niggles and naggles about tongues even.