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Calvinism Cost The Conservatives A Senate Seat


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#1 Fred Williams

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:49 AM

How's that for an attention-grabbing title!

In what was originally projected to be a likely senate pick-up for the Republicans, pundits on both sides agree that Richard Mourdock lost because of this comment he made in his debate with the Demoncrat:

"I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize that life is that gift from God. And, I think, even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."

Unfortunately, many Christians actually believe such a statement, such as Presberterians, Baptists, some Lutherans, and prominent leaders such as Charles Stanley and John MacArthur. They have fallen for a theology that is easily shown to be rooted in Greek pagan philosophy. We have a thread on Predestination here, but for the sake of brevity I'll provide one verse that easily refutes the belief that God has ordained man to rape or kill:

"they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind" - Jer 19:5

When non-Christians hear Christians make claims such as was made by Mourdock above, not only does it make us look silly, more importantly it makes the God of the Bible look bad. It makes Him look like a capricious little 'g' god.

So, I think its pretty indisputable that a Calvinistic belief resulted in a conservative Christian losing a Senate race he likely otherwise would have won. But then he never had a chance, since it was predestined. Posted Image

Fred

#2 MarkForbes

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:07 AM

....
"I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize that life is that gift from God. And, I think, even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen."
...

That statement can be understood in different ways.
1. God intended the rape to happen.
2. God intended the (human) life to begin.
3. Both of the above.

#3 Fred Williams

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 11:53 AM

Number 2 is possible, but pretty unlikely. His words were pretty straightforward, and let's face it, many Christians believe this. Some even unwittingly - for example, I've heard some at my church deny they are Calvinists (for example they deny that certain people were predestined for hell), then in the next breath down the road say things like, "all things happen for a reason" or "It was God's will [this or that] happened". There are many things that surely are God's will, but we also know that God allows certain things to happen that are against his will. Another verse:



Luke 13:34 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

#4 MarkForbes

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:22 AM

That's kind of a fatalism. But I am familiar with this. Interestingly Calvinists (predestination believers) used to be pretty energetic people with lot's of initiative. But I guess interpretation is also of some importance.

As for predestination or providence itself, I think it's misunderstood a bit. I think there is a realm of knowledge and will that isn't accessible to humans let alone understood, but within Gods nature. This comes with his traits of omniscience, omnipotence. We just tend to view this anthropomorphically transposing our will and knowledge onto him.

#5 Teejay

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:28 PM

That statement can be understood in different ways.
1. God intended the rape to happen.
2. God intended the (human) life to begin.
3. Both of the above.


Mark,

If God intended the rape to happen, then He is the author of the rape or the author of sin. This is a view of God that no Christian should accept. We have to view God's attributes through the whole Bible. An overview of the Bible shows that God is living, personal, relational, good, and loving. God can't sin and remain sinless. If Jesus had bowed His knee to Satan, sin would have entered the God-head and God would have come undone.

TeeJay

#6 Teejay

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:38 PM

That's kind of a fatalism. But I am familiar with this. Interestingly Calvinists (predestination believers) used to be pretty energetic people with lot's of initiative. But I guess interpretation is also of some importance.

As for predestination or providence itself, I think it's misunderstood a bit. I think there is a realm of knowledge and will that isn't accessible to humans let alone understood, but within Gods nature. This comes with his traits of omniscience, omnipotence. We just tend to view this anthropomorphically transposing our will and knowledge onto him.


Mark, we should never elevate God's quantitative attributes of omniscience, omnipotence (and omnipresence) above His qualitative attributes of being alive, personal, relational, good and loving. When Jjesus came in the flesh, He could relinquish His quantitative attributes but not His qualitative attributes. One of the psalms says, "Justice and righteousness are the foundation of Your throne, O God."

In Fred's OP, rape occurs because of the evil man who rapes. God can't give man freedom to rape or not rape and then cause the rape to happen. This is not possible even for God.

TeeJay
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#7 MarkForbes

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:42 AM

So God respects human autonomy, even if this is bad for people sometimes.

#8 Salsa

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 01:00 PM

So God respects human autonomy, even if this is bad for people sometimes.


I think there is scriptural evidence that shows he does:

Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day." But the people refused to listen to Samuel. "No!" they said. "We want a king over us.

Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles." When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. The LORD answered, "Listen to them and give them a king."

#9 jonas5877

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:39 PM

Number 2 is possible, but pretty unlikely. His words were pretty straightforward, and let's face it, many Christians believe this. Some even unwittingly - for example, I've heard some at my church deny they are Calvinists (for example they deny that certain people were predestined for hell), then in the next breath down the road say things like, "all things happen for a reason" or "It was God's will [this or that] happened". There are many things that surely are God's will, but we also know that God allows certain things to happen that are against his will. Another verse: Luke 13:34 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

So God does not intend for particular people to be born at particular times? Are we simply randomly conceived? If God did not intend for the baby to be conceived by that rape, does the sanctity of life not apply to that child?
I realize that a woman getting raped is a horrible situation for her, but should we kill the resulting child as some sort of payment for the crime? If you believe that abortion is wrong (perhaps even murder) shouldn't you believe that the murder of a child conceive from rape is also wrong?
Richard Mourdock's comments were regarding the abortion question, not the rape. He could have chosen his words better.

#10 Fred Williams

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:01 PM

I realize that a woman getting raped is a horrible situation for her, but should we kill the resulting child as some sort of payment for the crime? If you believe that abortion is wrong (perhaps even murder) shouldn't you believe that the murder of a child conceive from rape is also wrong?


You are absolutely correct, and its precisely what the Bible teaches. Ezekiel 18 goes in to great detail, and is summed up in verses 19 & 20:

“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. - Ezek 18:19-20




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