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Contradiction.


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#1 Guest_Vision in Verse_*

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 09:55 AM

I have found an apparent contradiction in the bible.

"I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last."

If God will exist as the very last thing in the world, doesn't this contradict the idea of eternal life in heaven? If we join God forever, how can there be a time where he is alone as the last?

#2 ikester7579

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 01:12 PM

I have found an apparent contradiction in the bible.

"I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last."

If God will exist as the very last thing in the world, doesn't this contradict the idea of eternal life in heaven? If we join God forever, how can there be a time where he is alone as the last?

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But not all things are eternal are they? His creation of life here, and our universe is not eternal. All things that are controlled by life, death, and time. Are contained within our universe (a bubble of sorts). This is why science can actually measure it, and it's expansion. We are not a space created within a void. We are a realm created within a realm. And God live beyond our realm.

http://www.yecheadqu...9.0.html.1.html

Claiming to be the alpha and omega is God saying to us that even though our time as we know will pass, He was there at it's beginning (Genesis-alpha), and will be there at it's end (Revelation-omega). Once our time passes, the scripture is fulfilled.

#3 jay7

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 03:57 PM

Actually there are no contradictions in scripture, only ignorance within those trying to understand.

Now, God is using language and figures of speech to convey to us who he is and how powerful he is and he does this in many different ways. This isn't to be taken literally. God isn't two letters of the Greek alphabet, nor does He have a beginning and an end.

He is actually saying how powerful and complete he is. To say one is the Alpha and Omega is to describe completeness and perfection, the same as first and last.

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 09:58 AM

This isn't to be taken literally. God isn't two letters of the Greek alphabet, nor does He have a beginning and an end.

I liked Ikester's answer more. He said that being the last means he will be there at the end of revelation, the end of the scripture. This resolves the contradiction. Your interpretation is different from his, as well as mine. What we have here is 3 different interpretations of the Bible. So there is ignorance yes, but the main reason for ignorance is the difference in interpretation.

He is actually saying how powerful and complete he is. To say one is the Alpha and Omega is to describe completeness and perfection, the same as first and last.

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If we don't take this as literal truth, would you say that a complete literal interpretation of the Bible is illogical?

I'll ask a side question. Who determines what the correct interpretation of the Bible is?

(however, i do see that your tag says old-earth creationist, which implies that you do not take the bible as 100% literal truth)

#5 jay7

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 07:16 PM

I liked Ikester's answer more.


Its not a competition.

He said that being the last means he will be there at the end of revelation, the end of the scripture. This resolves the contradiction. Your interpretation is different from his, as well as mine.


It was meant to be different from his because I had something different to add. I didn't disagree with him , I just had something more to say.

He is actually saying how powerful and complete he is. To say one is the Alpha and Omega is to describe completeness and perfection, the same as first and last.





If we don't take this as literal truth, would you say that a complete literal interpretation of the Bible is illogical?


Of course. God uses figures of speech and symbolism and it would be wrong to not understand the meanings of those as well as it is wrong to take literal things and give symbolic meanings God did not intend. It takes a lot of studying, wisdom and good discernment to rightly divide the Word.


I'll ask a side question. Who determines what the correct interpretation of the Bible is?

(however, i do see that your tag says old-earth creationist, which implies that you do not take the bible as 100% literal truth)


Correct interpretation can only be decided by spirit led teachers. There are many who believe they are such but aren't. For many it comes down to their own discernment to decide who is teaching and understanding correctly.

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 10:40 AM

It takes a lot of studying, wisdom and good discernment to rightly divide the Word.
Correct interpretation can only be decided by spirit led teachers. There are many who believe they are such but aren't. For many it comes down to their own discernment to decide who is teaching and understanding correctly.

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I personally can not decide who is wise and who is foolish. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. The fool lives a happy life. The fool is ignorant. The wise are cursed to watch, and predict. I've heard people say ignorance is bliss.

Would you agree with me if I were to say that if two different cultures studied the Bible, that their interpretations would be different according to those cultures values?

To me, who is right and who is wrong is completely subjective. Everyone can have a different view...

Let's say, for a moment, that your interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one. Is it righteous to condemn another person's interpretations because they hold different values?

#7 ikester7579

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 02:40 PM

I personally can not decide who is wise and who is foolish. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. The fool lives a happy life. The fool is ignorant. The wise are cursed to watch, and predict. I've heard people say ignorance is bliss.

Would you agree with me if I were to say that if two different cultures studied the Bible, that their interpretations would be different according to those cultures values?

To me, who is right and who is wrong is completely subjective. Everyone can have a different view...

Let's say, for a moment, that your interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one. Is it righteous to condemn another person's interpretations because they hold different values?

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As a Christian. I don't discard everything someone says just because I may disagree with certain points. I take what I know to be true, because I can back it up with the word. Then I take the opinion of the other person and test it as well, to see if it can also be backed up by the word.

The word is supposed to be the truth tester of what we are looking for concerns it. To many believers take their doctrine to a personal standard to where it can never be corrected by another. When one's mind has been made that they have total truth. That is the point in which they cannot be taught anything beyond what they already believe.

This is the reason I have become neuteral to all doctrines. Instead of allowing the doctrine of baptist, methodist, or what ever, be my total guide to finding truth. I test each segment against the word. And I'm finding that what each doctrine teaches has both truth, and misconceptions. Why do I do this?

When I stand before the judgement throne of Christ. I will not be judged on how well I followed the baptist doctrine, or any other doctrine. I will be judged on how I followed the word of God period. How I checked each doctrine to the word. And because I have the example of how the truth should be. There will be no excuse if I believe, teach, or preach what is not true. Even though I did not know it. For as long as I have a reference, I am supposed to test what I believe against it.

The problem I see in the Christian faith is that more people put more faith in what someone else says about the word, and what it should mean. And if that person is wrong, then their sin becomes the believers sin because they did not check it out.

Like the once saved always saved doctrine (osas). I have studied this subject for almost two years. Why? I want the truth about it. For I believe it's very important to know truth on this subject. It has taken over a year to change my mind from believing osas, to not believing it. And it was not a doctrine I gave up easy either. I just found 3 times the supporting evidence that went against it, then for it. And more gets revealed almost everyday. It's hard to keep up with all that is sent my way on this subject. Along with things I did not understand until I went to the other doctrine.

So unless believers are willing to lay their doctrine down, and truly test it for truth. Then they are trusting in the faith of another man who could be wrong.

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 04:01 AM

I agree, that's how everyone should go at it.

#9 Fred Williams

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 12:37 PM

Correct interpretation can only be decided by spirit led teachers.

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One of the gifts believers may receive is teaching, though most probably don’t (see James 3:1). Being a teacher however isn’t a condition to determining, or presiding over, the correct interpretation. So it is probably better stated as follows: “Correct interpretation can only be discerned by spirit led believers”.

Of course there are surface texts that unbelievers can properly interpret, such as “though shalt not murder”, but to understand most scripture in general requires “the fear of the Lord” (Prov 1:7) and the “Spirit of truth” (John 16:13) to guide us.

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The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction. - Prov 1:7

#10 Fred Williams

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 12:45 PM

So unless believers are willing to lay their doctrine down, and truly test it for truth. Then they are trusting in the faith of another man who could be wrong.


Very true Issac. Reminds me of one of my favorite verses, a verse near or at the center of the Bible:

Ps 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD, Than to put confidence in man.

We also need to be leery of our own intellect, as we are often the easiest person we can fool. :) “Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding ;” -Prov 3:5

The Apostle Paul also called the Bereans noble for not taking what he said for granted, but they instead “…searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.” Acts 17:11. Paul also encouraged followers to “Test all things;” -1 Thess 5:21

Fred

#11 jay7

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 04:30 PM

[This post was moved from the Hidden Treasure section (Ham cursed thread) since it addressed a comment I made here - Fred]

There are surface texts that unbelievers can properly interpret, such as “though shalt not murder”, but I agree that to understand most scripture in general requires “the fear of the Lord” (Prov 1:7) and the “Spirit of truth” (John 16:13) to guide us.


Indeed.

However, this is besides the point. You claimed only believers who are teachers can determine correct interpretation. It therefore follows that those Christians who were not given the gift of teaching must rely on interpretation from man.



From man guided by the Holy Spirit, yes. It is written that not all parts of the body of Christ are the same part. Not all are teachers, not all understand the finer points but excel in other things. I used a teacher because a teacher naturally must have the best understanding of scripture in order to teach it to others.



This is what I am claiming is not scriptural, so the burden is on you to defend your claim, using scripture. I’ve already listed scripture in my prior post that contradicts your claim (Ps 118:8, Prov 8:8, Ps 119:130).


I have nothing to defend because we are not truly disagreeing. I think you are just arguing in order to argue.



QUOTE
Don't stumble over my use of "teachers" by assuming this is different than believers who teach.


I did assume you meant believers who teach. One of the gifts believers may receive is teaching, though most probably don’t (see James 3:1). Being a teacher however isn’t a condition to determining, or presiding over, the correct interpretation. So it is probably better stated as follows: “Correct interpretation can only be discerned by spirit led believers”.


"Spirit led believer" or "spirit led teacher" is really the same thing since a spirit led teacher is naturally a believer else the spirit wouldn't lead.


QUOTE
Sins don't pass from father to son but a curse can and did.


You are avoiding the question. Does God punish kids for the sins committed by their father, yes or no? 



God did this in the past but no longer according to this verse:


Jeremiah 31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
Jeremiah 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.


The new covenant changed everything.


love jay

#12 Fred Williams

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 02:19 PM

I have nothing to defend because we are not truly disagreeing. I think you are just arguing in order to argue.

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I can understand why you might have taken this as hairsplitting on my part, but I truly am not “arguing to argue”, I believe there is an important distinction that has to be made. As I mentioned earlier, your claim is symptomatic of those who hold to OEC. Maybe an actual real-life example will help. I attended a debate between OEC and YEC, and the OEC’s main line of argument to defend OEC as scriptural was to appeal to an unnamed scholar who assured him OEC fit with scripture. Essentially, since this unnamed scholar was intelligent and an “expert” (or “teacher”), he therefore must know what he’s talking about and we can trust his interpretation. Or as your claim implied, only such an expert or teacher can decide what is correct. However, this is not scriptural. Paul called the Bereans in Acts 17 noble since they didn’t blindly trust what Paul said, but instead they “searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.” They did not rely on an expert/teacher such as Paul (I think you would agree Paul was an expert and a teacher), they went right to the source (scripture) to confirm what he said, and Paul commended them for it.

So it is probably better stated as follows: “Correct interpretation can only be discerned by spirit led believers”.


"Spirit led believer" or "spirit led teacher" is really the same thing since a spirit led teacher is naturally a believer else the spirit wouldn't lead.


A "spirit led teacher" is obviously a "spirit led believer", however, a "spirit led believer" is not necessarily a "spirit led teacher".

In summary, I just want to make clear that it is not true that only "spirit led teachers" can decide what is true in scripture; regular Joe believers can also decide what is true. How? By relying on the plain, straightforward rendering of the scriptural text. It often does require regular study of God’s Word, as the Bereans did daily. But being a student of God’s Word does not require you to be a teacher of God’s Word, nor does it give you special authority to decide for others what the correct interpretation is. When teaching or discussing God’s Word, we should always reference scripture and let God’s Word speak for itself. In the debate I mentioned above, the OECer avoided this when asked to defend OEC in scripture, but instead appealed to a man he called an expert. When OECers are forced to defend their claims with scripture, even the most simple-minded person can see that they are jumping through all kinds of hoops and engaging in calisthenics when they try to jam millions of years and a local flood into scriptural text where the plain rendering clearly does not support it.

Fred




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