[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1320139682' post='76196']
No. Slavery is when someone else
determines what you do. Being restricted by your own
righteousness is not slavery.[/quote]
Who imposed this restrictive morality on God? If you answer God, then I must ask, was God free to not impose this restrictive morality on Himself? If so, then God has free will.
[quote]But Teejay, isn't that exactly what you are saying - that God HAS the "freedom" to sin?
Now you are saying that he doesn't!?!
I stated WHAT YOU BELIEVE. You argue that God can't do otherwise, but then you argue that we can? If God does not have free will, how can He grant us that which He does not have Himself?
[quote]You are confusing our righteousness before God, with God's righteousness. What "righteous act" does God need to do in order for him to be considered righteous? There is none. He is not answerable to anyone but himself.[/quote]
Jesus (who is God) promised the Father than He would come in the flesh and die for us. Was He "answerable" to the Father if He broke His promise? Jesus died with the promise of the Father and the Holy Spirit that He would be resurrected from the dead. If They both broke their promise to Jesus, would they be answerable? If God were not a Triune God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), how could He know that He were good (before He interacted with men), since He would have no interaction with anyone but Himself? If murder of the innocent is wrong, is it not also wrong for God? I have the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ. My righteousness is as filthy rags. Righteousness is righteousness whether it be of God or of man. I don't think you've given this enough thought.
[quote]WE have a choice between sinning and not sinning due to weakness
. You are trying to portray this "choice" as something positive by constructing an argument whereby we have a freedom that God lacks. Oh lucky us![/quote]
My choice to sin or not sin is not due to my weakness. I have this choice because God has given it to me (and you). And yes I am portraying this choice as "positive" because it was given to me by God. If God had not given us freedom to love or hate, then love would not be possible. Do you agree that love must be "freely" given?
[quote]We can choose to be free from sin, only because we have a sinful nature. God doesn't have a sinful nature.[/quote]
Before the Fall, did Adam and Eve have a sinful nature? If they did, then where did that sinful nature come from? God? Why did't God create them with His nature, where they could not sin? The Bible says that we were created in the image of God. Why does God not have a sinful nature? Is it because He has not sinned? But if He sins, then He will have a sinful nature just like us. Right? But you have created a god who can't possibly choose to do otherwise. He is a slave to His "nature" rather than His nature being subservient to Him. Perhaps we should be worshipping His natgure rather than Him?
[quote]If you want to discuss God's hate or love for men then do so in the clichÃƒÂ© thread that covers that, instead of trying to bait me into something that is beyond what we are discussing, which is the possiblity of God to choose to lie. If you have a point then just make it.[/quote]
My question is very germane this debate we are having. I will ask again: Is God free to hate men? Or does His nature restrict Him from hating?
[quote]The "rubbish" part of your argument has nothing
to do with me disagreeing with the idea Closed Theism having its roots in greek philosophy! You are presupposing something that is not true. On the contrary, it was your comment saying that this idea would shock me. I AGREE FULLY that Closed theism has its roots in Greek philosophy, so how is that possibly going to shock me!?!![/quote]
If you agree that the roots of God's immutability stems from the pagan Greeks and not from Scripture, then why are you arguing that God can't change?
[quote]Of course God can change! But not in "any way"! He is not a man that he should lie and shouldn't be compared to a man who can lie. God cannot lie. It is IMPOSSIBLE for him to lie. You say that you agree with scripture, but obviously you don't. Scripture says that it is impossible for God to lie. You say it IS possible. That is hardly what I call "agreeing with scripture".[/quote]
But actually, God is a Man in the human form of Jesus Christ. Then you write that "it is impossible for Him to lie." If I ask why, you answer that "His nature" precludes Him from doing so. You are back with the Greeks in that God is not free to do anything. I argue that "righteous and justice are the foundation of your throne, O Lord" not because He CAN'T lie but because He WON'T lie. Why should God get any credit or honor for not doing something that He can't really do in the first place? Would you praise your computer for doing what you programmed it to do?
Do you think that God can lie or deceive His enemies? Before you answer, please consider your original position that God's nature will not permit Him to do otherwise.
[quote]That's nonsense! Do you only trust someone who can break a promise???[/quote]
If that someone could not break a promise, then my trust in him would have no value and would be meaningless. Can you agree with this?
[quote]Faith is being "sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see". It has nothing to do with the actual character and nature of God. Does God have to be a lyer in order for us to have faith in his truthfulness?? Heavens no!! Faith only steps in when we fail to "see" his truthfulness.[/quote]
But "Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness." But you write that faith "has nothing to do with the actual character and nature of God." But you are arguing that it's God's "nature" that restricts God from breaking a promise. I'm having trouble following your argument?
[quote]My faith in God's existance is not nullified by the fact that God exists, is it? Neither does the impossibility for God to lie nullify my fiath in his truthfulness.[/quote]
If God can't lie, why do you need faith to believe that He will not lie?
[quote]If it was my own
love for her that was forcing me then I think the vase would be the vessel of her choice.
If it was someone else
forcing me, or some other motive, then perhaps the trash can would come in handy.[/quote]
If you gave her flowers because you loved her, you would be doing it because you were not "forced." Basically, you answered correctly. Love can't be forced; neither does love "force." You are free to love or hate. And so is God. In your second sentence, you also answered correctly. But realize that you are arguing that God's "nature" forces Him to love and not hate, to not lie, to not break a promise. God is not doing any of these things due to the fact that He can't do otherwise. Your wife would also be justified in tossing God's flowers in the trash, for according to you, He is not free like you are.
[quote]Well, what I'm curious about is why you think these verses would be a problem for me... rather than for you.
Let's just take one. Why did God reward the midwives in Egypt for lying?