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How Do We Know Our Bible Is Complete?


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#1 DawnS

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 09:19 AM

This is a topic I really want a deeper understanding of. Several things have led me to think about it more lately. First, my dad has lost much of his faith over the past few years, and he has become a big fan of the work of Bart D. Ehrman. Secondly, I have wondered about such books as the Book of Jasher and the Book of Enoch, since they are quoted in the Bible.

Yesterday I ended up having a religious discussion with a truck driver (I manage a warehouse), and he was questioning a lot of things. One thing he mentioned was that he had heard a story from some supposedly lost scripture about Jesus playing with some clay birds and changing them into real birds. I didn't have any idea what he was talking about. It just got me thinking more about this topic. I want to be more secure in my defense, so that I can be better prepared to answer people like my dad and that driver.

#2 Ron

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 04:07 PM

Bart D. Erhman's argumentation is fellacious and persupposed at best. He was in a debate with William Lane Craig, and at best, all he could muster was post-modern arguments lacking any contemporanious evidences.
http://video.search....d+ehrman+debate
http://www.reasonabl...me=debates_main
http://www.reasonabl...t.pdf?docID=621



In as much as the Book of Jasher, here are a few good resourses for you:
http://www.answers.o...er-book-of.html
http://www.gospelmin....org/jasher.php

But, just because something is mentioned "IN" the Bible, in no way means it is "OF" the scriptures. Many non-Jews and Non-Christians are mentioned in the Bible, this neither makes them Jewish OR Christian. Much the same can be said of the Book of Enoch:

http://christianity....i/Book_of_Enoch
http://gracethrufait...-book-of-enoch/
http://gracethrufait...-book-excluded/
http://www.jesus-is-...ok_of_enoch.htm

Anyway, much of what you'll hear comes from supporters of writings like the Apocrypha:
http://www.letusreason.org/RC17.htm
http://www.christian...inspired-of-god
http://www.jesus-is-...om/apocryph.htm

#3 jason

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 06:31 PM

the jews of today and then didnt have these books in their tanach.

i have my grandmas tanach. it has no outside books. its the same that we have in names when in english but they are in different order.

jews did things by oral tradition and had the sanhedrin who put the bible together. they translated the bible from hebrew to greek.

#4 AFJ

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Posted 03 February 2012 - 11:28 PM

This is a topic I really want a deeper understanding of. Several things have led me to think about it more lately. First, my dad has lost much of his faith over the past few years, and he has become a big fan of the work of Bart D. Ehrman. Secondly, I have wondered about such books as the Book of Jasher and the Book of Enoch, since they are quoted in the Bible.

Yesterday I ended up having a religious discussion with a truck driver (I manage a warehouse), and he was questioning a lot of things. One thing he mentioned was that he had heard a story from some supposedly lost scripture about Jesus playing with some clay birds and changing them into real birds. I didn't have any idea what he was talking about. It just got me thinking more about this topic. I want to be more secure in my defense, so that I can be better prepared to answer people like my dad and that driver.

Ehrman is a liberal scholar. Ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Tim 3:7) and part of the last day club of false teachers whom the apostles prophesied against beforehand.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Timothy 4:3-4


Erhman is concerned with 'textual criticisms' rather than the original emphasis of AUTHORSHIP in the formation of the canon. This is a basic fact that agnostic Erhman has forgotten. Concerned more with finding small differences in the MANY manuscripts and fragments, which only serve to confirm the impact of originals, rather than deny their authenticity.

There are small deletions, or differences that scholars have pondered upon, and some, because they have never tasted of the Holy Spirit, or because, like Judas, they have allowed Satan to fill their hearts, have choked on a gnat and swallowed a camel (Matt. 23:24)

You can look at any study Bible (e.g. Thompson Chain), and you will sometimes see in the footnotes, "Some manuscripts do not contain the phrase...." or "Some manuscripts say...." These differences are minor. Not one of them can be argued to change the doctrines of God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Sin, or Salvation.
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#5 ikester7579

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 12:08 AM

This is a topic I really want a deeper understanding of. Several things have led me to think about it more lately. First, my dad has lost much of his faith over the past few years, and he has become a big fan of the work of Bart D. Ehrman. Secondly, I have wondered about such books as the Book of Jasher and the Book of Enoch, since they are quoted in the Bible.

Yesterday I ended up having a religious discussion with a truck driver (I manage a warehouse), and he was questioning a lot of things. One thing he mentioned was that he had heard a story from some supposedly lost scripture about Jesus playing with some clay birds and changing them into real birds. I didn't have any idea what he was talking about. It just got me thinking more about this topic. I want to be more secure in my defense, so that I can be better prepared to answer people like my dad and that driver.


People will believe what they like and use whatever they can to justify it. Basically what you must understand is that if God cannot keep His word true then He's not God. So the question is whether you want to have faith in that or not. Why? There are a lot of people out there that want to destroy the Bible and do not care how it's done. They will use anything including lies to do it. So you cannot believe everything you hear. Because if you take everyone's word and allow it to make you question your faith you will be pulled into so many directions that you will soon lose your faith.

#6 chipwag64

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 12:21 PM

It sounds like the OP is questioning if we need more books in the Bible than are presently there?
If so, would there be any value to us to have additional Scripture? There are already so many books that quote one another and show harmony between them; agreeing with one another and sharing common events with only slight differences of wording.
I believe that everything necessary to know God, know ourselves and know our enemy has been given to us, as well as a prescribed way to live as His servants.

#7 ikester7579

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 02:43 PM

It sounds like the OP is questioning if we need more books in the Bible than are presently there?
If so, would there be any value to us to have additional Scripture? There are already so many books that quote one another and show harmony between them; agreeing with one another and sharing common events with only slight differences of wording.
I believe that everything necessary to know God, know ourselves and know our enemy has been given to us, as well as a prescribed way to live as His servants.


I believe she is referring to the Books of the Macabees.

Here is an example: http://etext.virgini...1&division=div1

The reason the Maccabees were removed is because they were not part of the original transcript. They were added during the KJV translation because the greeks were fasinated by the Bible and wanted their version of some history added to it. Once King James found out that these books were added and printed he had all the Bibles that could be found with this in it taken and burned. Then they reprinted the Bible with those books removed. But the books survived because King James did not get them all. So there will always be a controversy on why they exist and whether they were removed for good or bad reasons.

Now as you read the example I left above I want you to notice that it is not written in the same style as the KJV was. This is because these books were not inspired like the rest of the KJV proving they do not belong and were never part of the original translation.

#8 jason

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Posted 04 February 2012 - 03:10 PM

on that note, one maccabees while not inspired is a historical account of the macabean revolt. the sanhedrin then and the jew now dont call them canon and they arent in the ot for that reason.

#9 DawnS

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 08:45 AM

People will believe what they like and use whatever they can to justify it. Basically what you must understand is that if God cannot keep His word true then He's not God. So the question is whether you want to have faith in that or not. Why? There are a lot of people out there that want to destroy the Bible and do not care how it's done. They will use anything including lies to do it. So you cannot believe everything you hear. Because if you take everyone's word and allow it to make you question your faith you will be pulled into so many directions that you will soon lose your faith.


I don't question my own faith so much as my ability to defend that faith. I know the Bible says that the Holy Spirit will give us the words we need, but this is something I have always struggled with because of social anxiety. This issue of the canon is something I've been hearing about a lot lately, mainly because of my dad. He even has his own facebook group to discuss Ehrman's books. So I guess my question would be -is it good enough for me to have the faith in the Bible and respond from that perspective when asked, or should I be studying these issues to have more specific knowledge?

#10 ikester7579

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 09:56 AM

I don't question my own faith so much as my ability to defend that faith. I know the Bible says that the Holy Spirit will give us the words we need, but this is something I have always struggled with because of social anxiety. This issue of the canon is something I've been hearing about a lot lately, mainly because of my dad. He even has his own facebook group to discuss Ehrman's books. So I guess my question would be -is it good enough for me to have the faith in the Bible and respond from that perspective when asked, or should I be studying these issues to have more specific knowledge?


It depnds on what you are ready for. God often makes it hard for us to understand certain things because He knows that some things can damage our faith. So the rule of thumb is in trying to understand something is that if it seems really hard, there is a reason for that. Also there is a different calling for each person. So this knowledge things for each individual is different. My answer maybe correct for you but not for the next person. If you learn to follow your spiritual instincts to where the Holy spirit guides you then you will know. But you also have to pray that this guidance comes to you. And instead of trying to do it yourself, stop wait and see. Because as long as you try to do it yourself the Holy Spirit will stand back and not guide you. So if you feel that what you are doing seems to be harder than it should be, there's a reason for that.

Also some people have to go down their own path of mistakes before they learn what the truth is. Your father maybe one of those that this has to happen to. So the only thing you can do is pray for him. If you get involved into this and don;t know enough about it it can damage your faith. God will blind you to understanding things that might do this. Just pray that God will send someone to correct your father.

Does studying or understanding these things your father believes seem hard or easy?
Do you feel down in your gut that it's wrong?

God's gives us spiritual insight, but it only works if we heed to it. It works the same way with the Holy Spirit. He only guides us if we listen, be humble, and follow his directions.

#11 supamk3speed

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 07:55 PM

I have read a few of the "lost books" and they just don't feel like they are meant to be within the Bible. They just feel void of intellectual relevance to that of the scriptures. The Gospel of Thomas is absolutely hilarious, I know that it isn't cannon because the scriptures aren't meant to be comedy. I am truely sorry but I can not see how anyone could think these books connect with the scriptures, the scriptures that in my opinion flow together like water.

#12 Portillo

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 11:15 PM

Bart Errorman.



#13 Salsa

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 12:43 AM

Bart Errorman.


:gigglesmile:

#14 Ron

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 05:02 AM

Bart Errorman.



Norman Geisler ROCKS! Thanks for the link Portillo... :)

#15 Ron

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 05:35 AM


People will believe what they like and use whatever they can to justify it. Basically what you must understand is that if God cannot keep His word true then He's not God. So the question is whether you want to have faith in that or not. Why? There are a lot of people out there that want to destroy the Bible and do not care how it's done. They will use anything including lies to do it. So you cannot believe everything you hear. Because if you take everyone's word and allow it to make you question your faith you will be pulled into so many directions that you will soon lose your faith.

I don't question my own faith so much as my ability to defend that faith. I know the Bible says that the Holy Spirit will give us the words we need, but this is something I have always struggled with because of social anxiety. This issue of the canon is something I've been hearing about a lot lately, mainly because of my dad. He even has his own facebook group to discuss Ehrman's books. So I guess my question would be -is it good enough for me to have the faith in the Bible and respond from that perspective when asked, or should I be studying these issues to have more specific knowledge?


Dawn,

Did you take the time to research any of the links I left for you? Anyway, the Bible (esp. the New Testament) tells us over and over to read and study and KNOW the scriptures. Faith comes from hearing (i.e.reading, studying etc...) and hearing from the Word of God (the scriptures). And that we are to prove the scriptures by testing the words of other against it. But we are also supposed to defend our faith. But how are we supposed to do this? By the study of the scripture AND understanding the arguements of the enemy so that we have answers to him and his followers. When Jesus was tempted by Satan, what did He do? He corrected Satan by KNOWING where Satan erred in his equivocations AND CORRECTING his misdirections of the TRUTH.

Bart Ehrman is easily refuted:

see post # 12 and watch the video
Also see:
http://www.godandsci...corruption.html
https://www.cbn.com/...px?option=print
http://www.christian...al-jesus-48532/
http://www.thinkingc...2403/index.html
http://www.philvaz.c...ogetics/p96.htm
http://findarticles....0/ai_n28499877/


Here are some good books for you to read as well: Misquoting Truth:
A Guide to the Fallacies of Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" ~ by Dr. Timothy Paul Jones
MISREPRESENTING JESUS Debunking Bart D. Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus ~ by Edward D. Andrews

#16 DawnS

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 08:25 AM

Dawn,

Did you take the time to research any of the links I left for you? Anyway, the Bible (esp. the New Testament) tells us over and over to read and study and KNOW the scriptures. Faith comes from hearing (i.e.reading, studying etc...) and hearing from the Word of God (the scriptures). And that we are to prove the scriptures by testing the words of other against it. But we are also supposed to defend our faith. But how are we supposed to do this? By the study of the scripture AND understanding the arguements of the enemy so that we have answers to him and his followers. When Jesus was tempted by Satan, what did He do? He corrected Satan by KNOWING where Satan erred in his equivocations AND CORRECTING his misdirections of the TRUTH.

Bart Ehrman is easily refuted:

see post # 12 and watch the video
Also see:
http://www.godandsci...corruption.html
https://www.cbn.com/...px?option=print
http://www.christian...al-jesus-48532/
http://www.thinkingc...2403/index.html
http://www.philvaz.c...ogetics/p96.htm
http://findarticles....0/ai_n28499877/


Here are some good books for you to read as well: Misquoting Truth:
A Guide to the Fallacies of Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" ~ by Dr. Timothy Paul Jones
MISREPRESENTING JESUS Debunking Bart D. Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus ~ by Edward D. Andrews


Yes, I have been going through those links. I meant to say thank you for that. I have just been a little overwhelmed lately, maybe trying to learn too many things at once. My last question was in reply to what ikester had said, b/c his answer was more about having faith in God and the Bible than about refuting people's specific claims, and I was looking for some clarification on what he was saying. I will definitely check out those books. Thanks!

#17 Teejay

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 06:28 PM

[quote] name='DawnS' timestamp='1328285983' post='79228']
This is a topic I really want a deeper understanding of. Several things have led me to think about it more lately. First, my dad has lost much of his faith over the past few years, and he has become a big fan of the work of Bart D. Ehrman. Secondly, I have wondered about such books as the Book of Jasher and the Book of Enoch, since they are quoted in the Bible.[/quote]

Dawn, I think Ron has pretty much discredited Ehrman. I was born and raised a Catholic--even worse an Irish Catholic. The Catholic Church has books in their Bible that are not in the King James that we have today. The reason I find these other books less than credible is that Jesus Christ did not refer to them once in His ministry. He only made reference to the prophets He sent in the OT.

[quote]Yesterday I ended up having a religious discussion with a truck driver (I manage a warehouse), and he was questioning a lot of things. One thing he mentioned was that he had heard a story from some supposedly lost scripture about Jesus playing with some clay birds and changing them into real birds. I didn't have any idea what he was talking about. It just got me thinking more about this topic. I want to be more secure in my defense, so that I can be better prepared to answer people like my dad and that driver.
[/quote]

As far as Jesus creating live birds from clay birds, we can know that this is not true. It is contrary to Genesis: God rested on the seventh day from ALL is creation (Gen. 2:3). This is why the First Law of Thermodynamics can't be challenged by atheists, for matter or energy can't be created or destroyed. What's here is here. And notice that there is no miracle in the Bible where God created any new matter or energy. Rather, He used His created matter and energy to perform miracles. If He creates anything new, then what God said in Genesis would not be true.

TeeJay

#18 rico

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 08:30 AM

I believe she is referring to the Books of the Macabees.

Here is an example: http://etext.virgini...1&division=div1

The reason the Maccabees were removed is because they were not part of the original transcript. They were added during the KJV translation because the greeks were fasinated by the Bible and wanted their version of some history added to it. Once King James found out that these books were added and printed he had all the Bibles that could be found with this in it taken and burned. Then they reprinted the Bible with those books removed. But the books survived because King James did not get them all. So there will always be a controversy on why they exist and whether they were removed for good or bad reasons.

Now as you read the example I left above I want you to notice that it is not written in the same style as the KJV was. This is because these books were not inspired like the rest of the KJV proving they do not belong and were never part of the original translation.

Ikester and others, I believe the clay bird story is also part of the Quaran, my Western Cultures teacher mentioned it in high school, it may be in Macabees, too; I don't subscribe to Islam they talk about Jesus being just a prophet in the book of the cow, I think. A site that refutes Roman Catholism is reasoning cathlics dot org.

#19 rico

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:28 PM

oops its www dot reaching catholics dot org
and has rebuttle's to some arguments that some not all cathlics have in the articles section:




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