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Hell's Best Kept Secret


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#21 the totton linnet

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 05:38 PM

I can see why you would think that but the one sided part that I refer to is someone thinking that grace is both good for the humble and the proud. People who are proud will always trample on the salvation message, based on kindness alone, because they are prideful in their sin. We are told to show them that sin is exceedingly sinful. How can we do that without recognizing that the Law is good when it is used for it's purpose?
Remember Paul is talking in the New Covenant context. This scriptures is based on how a believer is to convey the message after Christ's atonement on the cross.

Without that key element, the gospel message is not 'gospel' or good news because it makes no sense.

Let me ask you this. When someone is saved, what are they saved from? Do they have to be saved before this truth is revealed to them by an evangelical believer?

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Nowhere in acts do you find Paul preaching the law to the gentiles, that whole chapter in Romans is to show how that the law is defective in bringing about righteousness-sorry to disagree- how that far from dealing with sin it actually brings sin to life-not because the law is not holy but because the flesh is weak,
If you ask me why h*m*s*xuality has become so rampant, I will say it is in no small measure because it is denounced so stridently from the pulpits, even apart from the fact that this very chapter from Romans declares it, common observance shows that the more you make a thing "naughty" the more people do it.
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People are saved from sin "thou shalt call His name Jesus for He shall save His people from their sins"
Let me ask you something, can people help being sinners? was it their personal choice to be constituted sinner? how do you expect people who are born with sin to behave? are you shocked if they sin? I am not making a case for people not being guilty or responsible or accountable here, the bible clearly teaches that they are-in as much as we being in Adam when he sinned we should have like-wise fallen-he is our federal head right? so man's great enemy is the sin within ORIGINAL SIN. I am persuaded that people run around in a rage and they don't know why, they try to be good, but somehow they find themselves messing up, it's the sin nature driving them. Explain that to them and then you can explain the cross, that takes all the confrontation out of it. The problem isn't them, the problem is the sin nature-now they ARE responsible as to whether they will come God's way, which is the cross to get cleaned up and get right. I will ask YOU whether you will be honest, did YOU understand all that before you were saved? or did you [at the beginning] come to God looking for something better? As I listen to people as they give their testimonies it is usually the latter.

#22 the totton linnet

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 05:50 PM

Good this innit?

#23 Adam Nagy

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 05:51 PM

Hi Totton,

The verse I gave was from 1 Tim 1:8-10 not Romans. If you don't mind please be exegetic with those verses for us. What is being said exactly?

#24 the totton linnet

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 06:13 PM

Hi Totton,

The verse I gave was from 1 Tim 1:8-10 not Romans. If you don't mind please be exegetic with those verses for us. What is being said exactly?

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Well sorree, my bad, it is very similarly worded to Ro 7.
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Ok so let's just back up a couple of verses to get what he is saying
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vs 5. The aim of OUR charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith
vs6 Certain persons by swerving from these have wandered away into vain discussion
vs7. desiring to be teachers of the law without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
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[you will excuse me if I say that in my most humble opinion that sounds alot like Ray Comfort, if that is offensive you must tell me so, I will readily apologise]
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The verse you quoted then goes on to say who the law IS for, not the just but for sinners, now I do not THINK I am straining at it [you must judge] if I say that he means that the law here is applying to the unrepentant sinner, who has no intention of repenting. And as far as I understand the law of God DOES still stand for that purpose.

#25 Adam Nagy

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 07:53 PM

...and that is exactly the point of how Ray and Kirk approach the unrepentant sinner. :P

The people who misuse the law are those that teach salvation by keeping it. This is most certainly not what Ray or Kirk are teaching yet this is what Paul is speaking against, those teachers that twist the law into a works based salvation.

You will never see them telling people to follow the law for salvation, it is always grace alone through faith, they use it correctly to show people that they are already condemned... this is what the law is good for, to make sin exceedingly sinful, and we should use it to show people that sin isn't just a scratch or a blemish but a malignant cancer that has sentenced the individual to death.

#26 the totton linnet

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 04:52 AM

...and that is exactly the point of how Ray and Kirk approach the unrepentant sinner.  :blink:

The people who misuse the law are those that teach salvation by keeping it. This is most certainly not what Ray or Kirk are teaching yet this is what Paul is speaking against, those teachers that twist the law into a works based salvation.

You will never see them telling people to follow the law for salvation, it is always grace alone through faith, they use it correctly to show people that they are already condemned... this is what the law is good for, to make sin exceedingly sinful, and we should use it to show people that sin isn't just a scratch or a blemish but a malignant cancer that has sentenced the individual to death.

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Well, with love and respect...they don't, they approach everyone that way, I am perfectly happy and willing to tell you that I have and would use that selfsame formula i.e. have you ever lied? stolen? been angry? etc in personal witnessing as a conversation turned in that way.
My point is that this is their main thrust and they have built a whole philosophical outlook around it, their whole focus is to confront people with their sin.
Now dear Adam if we was sat out on your veranda sipping a glass of lemonade in the sunshine, I would open my heart and tell you candidly that I believe there is a certain amount of dishonesty in the way they are doing, of course I cannot do that on a public forum, but I sense it in my bones, I would like to know stuff like how many hours and days of filming were needed to get those outdoor presentations just so-so, I noticed how aware Kirk made those "gangsters" who actually looked to me more like just the lads out having a bit of fun, he made them very aware that they were being filmed-I would not go so far as to say it was staged mind, just extremely well managed, and the girl at the and who [well look closely and judge for yourself] got a bit of dust in her eye that made her look teary. Of course this is outrageous and I could only say it between ourselves. Those guys are extremely smooth operators, and I will say that if a few christians were to go out downtown Chicago and try the same thing they might find themselves running into difficulties-They know that which is why they opened with all that stuff about martyrs, that is a cover for their butts when would be imitators come back at them. Aren't I dreadful to say such things? such cynicism, oh dear I'm in trouble now.
I'll tell you why, because I do it Adam and when you go out a'soulwinning it doesn't happen that way-still these are only my cynicisms and can't be proved, BUT if I'm right truth will out eventually.
The point is what is bible?
Actss17v22-34
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So Paul standing in the midst of the Areopagus said "Men of Athens, I percieve that in every way you are very religious for as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship I also found an altar with the inscription "to the unknown god" what therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.
The God Who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth does not live in temples made by man, nor is He served by human hands as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward Him and find Him. Yet He is not far from each one of us for "in Him we live and move and have our being" as even one of your own poets have said "for we are indeed His offspring."
Being then God's offspring we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of men.
The times of ignorance God overlooked but now He commands all people everywhere to repent because He has fixed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by a man He has appointed, and of this He has given assurance to all by raising Him from the dead."
If you take this proclamation point by point it is so beautiful, cor I bet so many of those Athenians wondered about this "unknown God" what ccould He be like? and here is this guy telling about Him-"He sounds pretty wonderful doesn't He?" they might have said "you know I always thought God might be like that....we are His offspring, He wants us to discover Him....and what was that he said about a resurrection?"
Nobody felt accused or condemned about anything, it just isn't there, we know that in subsequent dealings Paul would have explained all about the cross and the whys and hows everything came to be as it is-I bet he explained right gently and respectfully-no need for censoriousness. What I see Adam is that christians have taken whole chunks out of the epistles, letters written to churches and church leaders, people who are already christians, and transposed them onto the gospel proclamation.
It is seen as an attempt and is indeed an attempt to force our morals upon an unbelieving population-that's how people see it and yet people still wonder about God and if they could first learn that He is real-God is able to reveal Himself as real-they might want to learn His ways, this makes christianity a wonderful discovery.
Now if you want to flog me about what I said about R&K I partly accept it was awful, I half apologise.

#27 Adam Nagy

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 07:20 AM

Totton,

We should probably continue this privately but I must address your charge, how they only managed to make their presentation "look good". I would be swayed to consider your charge only if I hadn't experienced point for point what they said I would, first hand. :(

I go out and talk to people, with some of the local pastors, and they themselves are amazed and invigorated in their own walks when they see the way of our Lord and Master working when we approach people exactly the way scripture tells us to.

There was no stage management because God has told us how to approach His lost kids. The problem is that we've listened to the world's complaints and feel ashamed because they don't like the conviction that comes from disciples evangelizing and opening doors for conviction to enter.

When we, as Christians, are behaving in a timid and socially accepted way, we're listening to culture and not scripture. The pressure to conform socially comes directly from the society around us, not the Word of God. Unfortunately, many churches teach this kinder gentler approach but that is not what got the disciples thrown in jail now is it? :blink:

#28 the totton linnet

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 09:57 AM

Totton,

We should probably continue this privately but I must address your charge, how they only managed to make their presentation "look good". I would be swayed to consider your charge only if I hadn't experienced point for point what they said I would, first hand. :(

I go out and talk to people, with some of the local pastors, and they themselves are amazed and invigorated in their own walks when they see the way of our Lord and Master working when we approach people exactly the way scripture tells us to.

There was no stage management because God has told us how to approach His lost kids. The problem is that we've listened to the world's complaints and feel ashamed because they don't like the conviction that comes from disciples evangelizing and opening doors for conviction to enter.

When we, as Christians, are behaving in a timid and socially accepted way, we're listening to culture and not scripture. The pressure to conform socially comes directly from the society around us, not the Word of God. Unfortunately, many churches teach this kinder gentler approach but that is not what got the disciples thrown in jail now is it? :blink:

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:D Many brothers would not have accepted what I said with such grace, If you are saying you are winning souls with this project then I must concede to that but christians DO get excited with any planned outreach especially as it is usually combined with a quickening of prayer life and fellowship and reaffirmation of commitment, ahem it is me who is quoting scripture in whole chunks, the above is a masterpiece by Paul of taking note of culture. I would re, re state that it was because of the success of miracle ministry and because the church was held in high esteem by the people that brought persecution, the kinder, gentler approach I am always referring to is the Acts of the apostles.




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