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Atheist Stumbling Block: God And Time


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#1 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:57 AM

As Christians, we understand that God is outside the constraints of time, the very constraints that His creation is under. He always was, is, and will always be. Even the Christian trying to grasp this reality will have the mind scrambled. Yet we know it to be true. The Bible is full of prophecy and its fulfilled prophecy proves two things:

1) that God lies outside the constraints of time and space
2) that the Holy Bible is God's word (and for me proves the existence of God)

Albert Einstein's Theory of Relativity has been shown to be correct so far:

http://www.google.co...bf05c7cebdc.941

Interestingly, Einstein's views on time directly support the Christian view on God and time:

"Einstein's belief in an undivided solid reality was clear to him, so much so that he completely rejected the separation we experience as the moment of now. He believed there is no true division between past and future, there is rather a single existence."

http://everythingfor...om/einstein.htm

Discussions with atheists have led me to believe that this, the failure to embrace the connection between God and eternity, is the foundational reason for their lack of belief in God. Perhaps they would consider God to be real if they would scrutinize the science that they idolize. But more importantly, when science and faith intersect, complementing each other, I would hope that they would believe in BOTH the science *and* the faith. This is not the case however. At this intersecting point, they reject the science; they forever deny that the science is correct, or they claim it is misunderstood, while at the same time insisting that the faith is still wrong.

But how can atheists deny that Einstein's views on time are in harmony with Biblical prophecy?

His views on time align perfectly with the Biblical prophesies of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. Christ fulfilled over 300 prophesies by his birth, life, death, and resurrection. Only God, who resides outside the constraints of time and space could accurately foretell the events hundreds of years in advance, using the very people who rejected Christ as Messiah as the messenger. Only God can do these things.

#2 Chris

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 09:20 AM

Hello, sir. I don't post this with the intention of disagreeing, as this is an area where my study is deficient, but I read another view on God and time, and I thought it pertinent. Maybe you can help me shed some light on it.

In this view, God doesn't see the future because it simply hasn't happened. When the appropriate time arrives to fulfill a prophecy, He brings it about. Whatever the circumstances at the time, wherever the key players are located and whatever they are doing, He is God and will bring His prophecies to fulfillment at the appropriate time. In this view, the future has yet to come, and the Hand of God brings all things to pass at the proper time.

As I said above, I haven't researched this enough to know what I think on the matter. Do you mind sharing your thoughts on this view of God and time?

#3 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:27 AM

In this view, God doesn't see the future because it simply hasn't happened. When the appropriate time arrives to fulfill a prophecy, He brings it about. Whatever the circumstances at the time, wherever the key players are located and whatever they are doing, He is God and will bring His prophecies to fulfillment at the appropriate time. In this view, the future has yet to come, and the Hand of God brings all things to pass at the proper time.


I believe God sees the future, so I disagree that He doesn't, whether it has "happened" or not for us.

I base this on God existing eternally (eternal: lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning),
and therefore, by default, is outside of our constraints of time and space:

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy;

Psalm 93:2
Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Seeing the future, and changing the future are two totally different things. As I've stated, I believe God sees the future (in His way, not the way WE think about "seeing the future"), yet where man's free will comes into play God does not tamper; He leaves free will in tact, always. Therefore I also disagree that "He brings it about", whether it be prophecy per se or just ordinary events. To "bring it about" would compromise man's free will.

We know that God is omniscient (knowing everything):

He even knows our hearts:

1 John 3:20
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Even down to the hairs on our heads:

Matthew 10:30
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.


Knowing "all things" and being "eternal" explains quite well Biblical prophecy. And Biblical prophecy does not contradict Einstein's notions of time and space.

#4 Fred Williams

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 09:37 PM

You might find this debate interesting:

http://www.evolution...wtopic=489&st=0

#5 Fiver

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:43 PM

As Christians, we understand that God is outside the constraints of time, the very constraints that His creation is under. He always was, is, and will always be. Even the Christian trying to grasp this reality will have the mind scrambled. Yet we know it to be true. The Bible is full of prophecy and its fulfilled prophecy proves two things:

1) that God lies outside the constraints of time and space
2) that the Holy Bible is God's word (and for me proves the existence of God)

But how can atheists deny that Einstein's views on time are in harmony with Biblical prophecy?

I would think that most atheists would disagree with you on several points. Firstly, they wouldn't agree that the Bible gives reliable evidence of supernatural fulfillment of prophecy (certainly not when compared to other 'prophecy' books, like the Koran, or the writings of Nostradamus). But even if the Bible was reliably prophetic, your conclusions are circular. Concluding that God lies outside the constraints of time and space assumes that God exists to begin with. Concluding that the Holy Bible is God's word also assumes God's existence (and assumes that only God could accurately prophecy: the Bible itself says otherwise). To conclude that God must exist, based on your previous two conclusions, is thus circular reasoning.

#6 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:51 PM

I would think that most atheists would disagree with you on several points.


Ya think? :P I wrote this to Christians because I knew they would understand. But let's see what you disagree with...

Firstly, they wouldn't agree that the Bible gives reliable evidence of supernatural fulfillment of prophecy (certainly not when compared to other 'prophecy' books, like the Koran, or the writings of Nostradamus).


The Bible has much fulfilled prophecy. There are over 300 fulfilled prophesies in the OT that were fulfilled by Christ's birth, life/ministry, death, and resurrection. But I'm just repeating here what I stated in the OP. Did you not read that? Of course you did. But you deny this, don't you? This doesn't surprise me, not at all.

There are many other fulfilled prophesies. As far as the Koran and Nostradamus, I'm not going to address that here as it's way off topic. Feel free to start your own thread. The topic of this thread is Bible prophecy, and how fulfilled prophecy clearly demonstrates how God is outside of our human constraints of time. Also, how Einstein understood God's perspective of time when he concluded that when it comes to time, "there is no true division between past and future, there is rather a single existence."

But even if the Bible was reliably prophetic, your conclusions are circular.
Concluding that God lies outside the constraints of time and space assumes that God exists to begin with.


No, you're wrong. One does not have to assume that God exists first in order to critically evaluate how fulfilled prophecy is supernatural in nature. Even if I did not believe in God, I would take a hard look at all of the Bible prophecies and would have to conclude that God exists. Because the fulfilled prophecies are undeniable. My favorite ones of course are the ones written by the Jews, the ones who denied Christ. There's no getting around this, not for a rationally thinking person.

The prophecy about the reformation of Israel, coming together as a nation in 1948, two thousand years after the Jews were scattered, is another powerful example of fulfilled prophecy.

Concluding that God lies outside the constraints of time and space assumes that God exists to begin with.


No, it doesn't make that assumption. See explanation above.


Concluding that the Holy Bible is God's word also assumes God's existence (and assumes that only God could accurately prophecy: the Bible itself says otherwise). To conclude that God must exist, based on your previous two conclusions, is thus circular reasoning.


To read, study, and understand Christ's words in the Bible IS to know that it's God's word. To experience the gift's of God's Holy Spirit, as promised in the Bible, is yet even more proof that the Bible is God's word. The Bible is a living, breathing, spiritual book. But it cannot be discerned by unbelievers, those that are enmity with God or who deny His existence.

Finally, I'll point out an error you stated. Bible prophecy is from God, and God only. The Bible does not say "otherwise" as you've stated. This in fact was the only knowledge about the Bible that you've stated, and it so happens that this one statement is incorrect.

#7 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 09:49 AM

I just happened upon this today as I was searching for "Bible infallibility". My position on Biblical infallibility, and Biblical prophecy, as it goes to proving the existence of God, is not unique. But of course Christians know this!

Since the following is directly related to the subject matter at hand, I'm quoting this from The Berean Call. It not only ties together everything that has been discussed, but it also provides the scriptural references. Enjoy!

QUESTION: If you had time to give only one argument against atheism and evolution, what would it be?

RESPONSE:

There are numerous scientific proofs refuting these pretentions. DNA contains written instructions for life, encoded in a language, which could come only from an infinite intelligence, and which had to be in place before the first cell came into being. Yet in spite of such facts, Francis Collins, who headed the Human Genome Project for ten years and should therefore be the ultimate expert on DNA, remains an evolutionist even after becoming a Christian. Scientific proofs, no matter how conclusive, seem insufficient.

Instead, I would use what God himself offers as the proof of His existence and the infallibility of His Word. What is that? His prophetic declarations concerning future events: "I am the LORD:...new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them....I am God...and there is none like me, declaring...from ancient times the things that are not yet done..." (Isaiah:42:8, etc.).

There are hundreds of prophecies about Israel--even more than for the Messiah. God offers these as the major proof of His existence. For example, Joel:3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. declares that in the last days God will "gather all nations" to Jerusalem to punish them for

1) their hatred and persecution of His people Israel; and 2) for dividing His land. Israel was conquered many times by various nations but never divided until the United Nations did it. UN Resolution 181 is called "the partition of the land." It divided Israel, giving 87 percent to the Arabs (for oil) and 13 percent to the Jews, although the League of Nations' 1922 Declaration of Principles had said that all of "Palestine" belonged to the Jews.

Resolution 181 also designated Jerusalem as an international territory never to be under the sovereignty of the Jews, fulfilling Christ's declaration that it would "be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (Lk 21:24). In Judgment Day [1] , we thoroughly document the fact that the UN, EU, American presidents, and the Vatican are all joined in the attempt to force Israel to submit to international rule over Jerusalem.

Jeremiah:23:7-8
declares that the big news in the last days will no longer be Israel's deliverance from Egypt under Moses but the Lord's gathering back into their land His people Israel from "the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them...."

Zechariah:14:2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. declares that in the last days all the nations surrounding Israel will be allied against her. In fact, throughout history the surrounding nations have never been united together in anything but have fought one another. In our day, however, the impossible has happened: just as God foretold, all are united against Israel by Islam.

These prophecies are too clear to be denied--and there are hundreds more. The evolution-creation argument will never be settled scientifically. Although it is helpful to give the numerous scientific reasons for rejecting evolution, we need to use the irrefutable proof God has given us. Many Bible prophecies are so simple, so clear, and their fulfillment so undeniable, that we need to rely primarily upon this superweapon our Lord has provided--not only in combating false science but in winning the lost through the gospel. Remember that Paul continually declared that the gospel was "according to the scriptures" (Rom:1:1-5, 1 Cor:15:3)


http://www.theberean...-what-would-it-

#8 Ron

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 10:17 AM



As Christians, we understand that God is outside the constraints of time, the very constraints that His creation is under. He always was, is, and will always be. Even the Christian trying to grasp this reality will have the mind scrambled. Yet we know it to be true. The Bible is full of prophecy and its fulfilled prophecy proves two things:

1) that God lies outside the constraints of time and space
2) that the Holy Bible is God's word (and for me proves the existence of God)

But how can atheists deny that Einstein's views on time are in harmony with Biblical prophecy?


I would think that most atheists would disagree with you on several points.


That’s absolutely fine; but disagreeing via personal opinion remains just that… personal opinion


Firstly, they wouldn't agree that the Bible gives reliable evidence of supernatural fulfillment of prophecy (certainly not when compared to other 'prophecy' books, like the Koran, or the writings of Nostradamus).


Once again, disagreeing via personal opinion remains opinion, and nothing more.

Further, to make your case, you need to find corroboration of prophecy in the Koran and the writings of Nostradamus that equal the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy; as YOU are the one making the claim.


But even if the Bible was reliably prophetic, your conclusions are circular.


Actually, your argument is a non sequitur ; as Biblical prophecy isn’t Petitio Principii unless the person argues assuming as a premise a statement which has the same meaning as the conclusion. And the theist doesn’t argue such; the theist argues that there were “witnesses” to the fulfillment of said prophecies.


Concluding that God lies outside the constraints of time and space assumes that God exists to begin with.


That would be incorrect, concluding that God lies outside the constraints of time and space, based upon the claims OF God, doesn’t ASSUME God. Now, claiming there is a tea pot orbiting the Earth, without any evidence of said tea pot, could be considered an assumption. Or claiming the flying spaghetti monster as a deity, sans any evidence for said deity could be considered assumptive. OR claiming that the universe “Just Is” could be considered an assumption; but concluding that “God lies outside the constraints of time and space” because He said He did, and then He does eye witnessed works to prove that this is a possibility, is anything BUT assumptive.


Concluding that the Holy Bible is God's word also assumes God's existence (and assumes that only God could accurately prophecy: the Bible itself says otherwise).


Once again, that would be incorrect, as God said the Holy Bible “IS” His word. He then went on to provide evidence that it “IS” His Word by not only fulfilling the prophetic as evidence, but other works as well (all attested to via eye witnesses). Now, if you wish to contest said evidences, it then becomes incumbent upon YOU to provide contrary evidence.


To conclude that God must exist, based on your previous two conclusions, is thus circular reasoning.

To conclude that Petitio Principii was being used by Remnant of The Abyss is a “non sequitur” on your part, further you usage of the non sequitur was a “Red Herring”, as you actually have no actual evidence against the OP, therefore you posit irrelevant details as fallacious logic to divert attention away from your lack of an argument.





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