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The Wise And Foolish Maidens


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#1 the totton linnet

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 08:19 AM

OK so I'm pushing my luck and pretty soon someone will come along and clobber me. You see I have the same problems with scripture that everybody else has, I come upon a hard saying and the same wrinkle that appears on other peoples brow appears also on mine.

I always start from one sure premise, the bible is God's word, it must be right, for people that reject that statement I do not have a single thing to argue about.

The second premise I have is this, God is Love, He is kind and gracious full of mercy, His will toward us is good. Yes He is holy, what confidence could anyone have if He were not holy. You can trust God, if He has said a thing it will surely come to pass, it always has, people can laugh and fight against it with all their power and might and yet at the end of the day dust returns to dust, God takes back the spirit He borrowed and we die.

Did you know that the eastern custom was that when the Bridegroom returned from the wedding he brought his bride with him?

Did you know that in the most ancient texts of Matthew.25:6. it is "But at mid-night there was a cry "behold the bridegroom AND THE BRIDE"?
Then where is she in our english translations? we all know about the bridegroom who wnt missing but here it is the bride who has had it away on her toes.

I will tell you what happened to her, the first translators of the bible into english had a puzzle to solve because according to every doctor of the church the division was between the wise and foolish maidens. The wise were the christians and the foolish were the atheists, the saved and the lost, the redeemed and the world.

Now far be it from me to want to pick a fight with honourable brothers whose holiness and educational achievements far, far excel and out-shine mine, but I must.

They knew the Bridegroom is Christ, they also knew that the Bride everywhere in scripture is the church. But here they have in the same portion of scripture 2 churches depicted, they have [according to their doctrination] the church depicted in the wise maidens ANNND they have her depicted in the Bride.

So they simply omitted the Bride from the story, problem solved, except it completely alters the complexion of the parabolic truth with regards to who the wise maidens are if not the church the bride.

The maidens cannot be the Bride and the Bride's attendants at one and the same time. This was the other question that those good theological doctors and language experts could not answer on that Calvinist forum. All they could keep repeating is "you are wrong, you are wrong."

See people get scared when you challenge their foundational truths, they are afraid you may shake the very ground from under their feet. The fault occurs when we bring OUR doctrines to the scripture and then set about to make the scriptures to fit into our doctrine.

Everybody does that, Catholics do it, Calvinists do it, Arminians do it dispensationalist everyone. Their doctrine is right and cannot be wrong therefore the scripture must be made to conform to it.

It will not harm my brothers to look at the scriptures each of us again with fresh eyes, and all these weighty doctrines~not to prove the bible wrong for in doctrine the bible is not wrong~but in these days when the truth is being assailed with such a ferocity we must be founded upon the rock, immovable, unshakeable, impregnable. God's word is that but some of our doctrines though founded upon God's word [or our understanding of it] can be and are at present being shaken, none more so than the doctrine of eternal punishment.

Let me put it yet another way. The church was locked in darkness through false doctrine for no less a time period of one thousand years, utter darkness reigned concerning the true way of salvation [notwithstanding, people must have come to a true knowledge of saving faith during that time] then suddenly a light shone, a little monk climbing the steps in Rome upon his knees seeking some kind of grace from God, and the word dawned upon him "the just shall live by faith" and the mighty reformation was begun.

#2 Dave

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 09:05 AM

In short, the bride is the church. The 10 maidens, or virgins, are representative of individuals who make up the body of Christ ... or rather, and this is important, of some who think they are in the body of Christ.

The reason why the bride (church) is not mentioned in this parable is because Jesus gave this parable for us as individuals. It is clearly represented throughout scripture that the church as an entity will arise in the rapture and become the bride of Christ. No need to doubt or debate that "the church" will ultimately fulfill its destiny to be Christ's bride. It's a done deal.

But, what about those who profess to be part of the church (the body of Christ)? That's who this parable is for. In Jewish tradition, the bridegroom would appear at night to take his bride. He was supposed to be met by 10 virgin bridesmaids of the bride, carrying lamps to light the way for the bride.

The 5 wise virgins represent those who kept God's word, and prepared themselves by acquiring the grace of salvation (oil for lamps). They represent true, born-again believers in every church.

The 5 foolish virgins were with the 5 wise virgins, but they were wholly different. They represent pew-warmers in every church; those hypocrites who profess to be Christians, but who have not truly accepted God's gift of salvation. They are wholly unprepared to meet Christ (no oil for lamps).

Note too that the 5 wise virgins will not impart any of their oil (grace) to the foolish virgins. Plus, the foolish virgins won't have time to go into the marketplace to buy oil. When the bridegroom comes, that's it. Better be ready. You snooze, you lose.

This should be very instructive to all of us. This parable is about us, with lessons to be learned.

Yes, the bride is definitely going to meet Christ for the marriage, but how many of her maidens will be there with her? Who wants to hear Christ say, "I knew you not?"

Dave

#3 the totton linnet

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 09:25 AM

In short, the bride is the church. The 10 maidens, or virgins, are representative of individuals who make up the body of Christ ... or rather, and this is important, of some who think they are in the body of Christ.

The reason why the bride (church) is not mentioned in this parable is because Jesus gave this parable for us as individuals. It is clearly represented throughout scripture that the church as an entity will arise in the rapture and become the bride of Christ. No need to doubt or debate that "the church" will ultimately fulfill its destiny to be Christ's bride. It's a done deal.

But, what about those who profess to be part of the church (the body of Christ)? That's who this parable is for. In Jewish tradition, the bridegroom would appear at night to take his bride. He was supposed to be met by 10 virgin bridesmaids of the bride, carrying lamps to light the way for the bride.

The 5 wise virgins represent those who kept God's word, and prepared themselves by acquiring the grace of salvation (oil for lamps). They represent true, born-again believers in every church.

The 5 foolish virgins were with the 5 wise virgins, but they were wholly different. They represent pew-warmers in every church; those hypocrites who profess to be Christians, but who have not truly accepted God's gift of salvation. They are wholly unprepared to meet Christ (no oil for lamps).

Note too that the 5 wise virgins will not impart any of their oil (grace) to the foolish virgins. Plus, the foolish virgins won't have time to go into the marketplace to buy oil. When the bridegroom comes, that's it. Better be ready. You snooze, you lose.

This should be very instructive to all of us. This parable is about us, with lessons to be learned.

Yes, the bride is definitely going to meet Christ for the marriage, but how many of her maidens will be there with her? Who wants to hear Christ say, "I knew you not?"

Dave

 

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With very great respect my brother you have yourself said that the church is the Bride, therefore the wise attendants are not also the church, apart from making no sense it makes awful exegesis, God simply does not speak thus but even when speaking in parables He speaks with a certain exactitude.

I take your point, I can't conceive the disappointment of those who are met with a shut door. This creation is under a curse because of sin but there is still so much beauty, so much calculated to give comfort and joy, that will be gone to be transcended by something incomparably better. The disappointment of the foolish maids will be abject. Nothing worse than being shunned but they have shunned the Master of the feast.

#4 Dave

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 10:21 AM

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With very great respect my brother you have yourself said that the church is the Bride, therefore the wise attendants are not also the church, apart from making no sense it makes awful exegesis, God simply does not speak thus but even when speaking in parables He speaks with a certain exactitude.

 


OK. How about this? ;)

In light of the fact that I overlooked that Matthew 25 is all about "after these things," in other words, after the tribulation, an argument could be made that the bridesmaids are Israel -- and represent those who do (wise virgins) or don't (foolish virgins) come to Christ during the tribulation.

I apologize for the oversight. Heaven knows I've preached often enough about the hugely misunderstood "Sheep and Goats" passages in Matthew 25 that arises because people refuse to acknowledge that Christ is talking about those who are alive at the end of the tribulation when Christ returns for the second part of his second coming.

Like the sheep and the goats, however, there are practical applications to the parable of the 10 virgins that we should find instructive for our daily lives.

Sound better?

Dave

#5 the totton linnet

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 10:42 AM

OK. How about this?  ;)

In light of the fact that I overlooked that Matthew 25 is all about "after these things," in other words, after the tribulation, an argument could be made that the bridesmaids are Israel -- and represent those who do (wise virgins) or don't (foolish virgins) come to Christ during the tribulation.

I apologize for the oversight. Heaven knows I've preached often enough about the hugely misunderstood "Sheep and Goats" passages in Matthew 25 that arises because people refuse to acknowledge that Christ is talking about those who are alive at the end of the tribulation when Christ returns for the second part of his second coming.

Like the sheep and the goats, however, there are practical applications to the parable of the 10 virgins that we should find instructive for our daily lives.

Sound better?

Dave

 

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;) I thought my reply was a bit snooty :lol: so I added to it a bit. Oh dear, we are at odds more than ever now since I believe the church will go through the trib while Israel bides for the most part in safety, I believe the church will be martyred for the most part before any rapture takes place.

What I really believe could just be a little too unacceptable on an evangelical forum, I don't want to upset anyone, I believe in being saved, born again, the forgiveness of sins and new life at the cross. If we say God is just and holy and cannot overlook sin, I say He is just and holy and will not overlook lives spent reaching out and blessing and helping people.

The Great White Throne Judgement takes place long after all tribulations and raptures after the saints have been re-united with the Lord, one thousand years after they have reigned with Him and there we see the final resurrection and people are judged by their works [proving once again as indeed the sheep are judged by works that this cannot be the church] and by whether their names are in the book of life.

hmm I don't want to be too contoversial, but I am heartily sick of preachers who seem to get off by damning everyone to hell, it makes my toes curl and I do not see my God in it. Though I am NOT a universalist.

#6 Dave

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 12:13 PM

Chuck Missler likes to tell a story about his great friend and mentor Walter Martin. Apparently, Mr. Martin was post-trib. They would debate good naturedly until they both got tired.

Finally, Mr. Missler would tell Mr. Martin, "Don't worry Walter, I'll explain it to you on the way up."

The point being that eventually all who are saved will know the truth.

Dave

#7 the totton linnet

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 05:10 PM

Chuck Missler likes to tell a story about his great friend and mentor Walter Martin. Apparently, Mr. Martin was post-trib. They would debate good naturedly until they both got tired.

Finally, Mr. Missler would tell Mr. Martin, "Don't worry Walter, I'll explain it to you on the way up."

The point being that eventually all who are saved will know the truth.

Dave

 

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My offer to a pre-tribber of my old trampoline so that he could start practising was alas not so well recieved :lol: Bros and sisses should not fall out over doctrine but I understand how some feel when they think a deception has a dishonouring affect or if they feel the gospel is being watered down especially if they feel the motive is just for popular appeal, well considering the diversity of the church it is amazing how united the testimony is really.




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