17 replies to this topic

[gilbo12345]

Hey all, today I went to one of the local churches near to where I live. Its one of the new fashioned ones with a rock band instead of a choir. I am more partial to the "old school" hymns myself, as I can actually sing them, (which I enjoyed lots when I went to church ages ago), I can't sing to these new age songs


Anyway, I had a chat with one of the youth there and I asked if they do the talking in tongues stuff there, to which she said yes (This is the same as the new age church back in my hometown so it seems a pattern is developing). Whilst the service today didn't have talking in tongues there was "words of knowledge", which sounded a bit like calling out random things and see if people respond... Cold Reading perhaps???





Anyway, my question for you guys is concerning the verification of these gifts from God since the church back in my home town at one point most (say 70% of the church) were calling out in their own jibberish which to me seems abit insane. I have no problem if such a gift is real, but going from the number of people who supposedly had this gift I am sure there are some people just doing it to fit in or something.

Therefore how is talking in tongues verified? if at all. Is having a church of people who say jibberish the right way to glorify God.

Actually how are these gifts of God verified, I mean I am sure you wouldn't want people making stuff up

[Portillo]

Stay as far away as you can from pentecostal churches.

[gilbo12345]

Is that what they are called?

May I ask for the reasons why you say to stay away. The people seemed nice enough and the teaching from the Bible was pretty good, (then again I'm no scholar ).



I'm thinking of checking out another church just down the road from this one as it seems to be more traditional

[Remnant of The Abyss]

Speaking in tongues is one of the gift's from the Holy Spirit, but it is the least gift. I have experienced this only once in my life, after baptism from my church in the River Jordan, Israel. It's real and it proves God's power in a real way. When I spoke after coming up from being submerged, I heard these strange words coming out of my mouth, yet I understood them perfectly as my mind was thinking about what I was saying, only the words were foreign to me. My pastor was just looking at me with a huge grin from ear to ear as I briefly spoke to him.

The Bible tells us that worship in church and specifically speaking in tongues must be done in an orderly way.

1 Corinthians 14:26-28
What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.

I have no problems with Pentecostal churches per se, so long as everything done according to the Bible. Without order, as the Bible specifies, there is confusion. Confusion is not from God. Confusion is from the enemy.

[JayShel]

I believe pentecostal churches can definitely lead you to salvation. There is two issues that I have with pentecostal churches:

1. They tend to focus too much on the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts. This can be unhealthy. We should worship God because we love Him, not because He is giving us spiritual gifts. We should use these gifts to build up the church, not just to show off. The Holy Spirit has always been there to point to God the Father, so an overemphasis on the Holy Spirit is not how God intends.

2. They might tell you that if you don't speak in tongues, then you are not saved. This is heresy.

[gilbo12345]

Yet it seems from what I have seen that there are many more of these talkers in tongues in a pentecostal church than anywhere else. Honestly at my old church we didn't have anyone. Now this leads me to think that surely there must be some people who think they are talking in tongues but are not so. We can deceive ourselves with our own mind and feelings. Similar to how a young woman can deceive herself into thinking her relationship with her abusive boyfriend is good or good enough.

I am asking how are these gifts verified, I heard there are people who can interpret speaking in tongues, why is it that speaking in tongues is so prevalent without those who can interpret what is being "said". If I wanted to I could unload a list of babble myself, and this would most probably be regarded as "talking in tongues", imagine the surprise if I later reveal I was just speaking babble. Such a thing is deceptive so I probably won't do it, however it does show how quick people are to assume that someone has a gift even when in reality it may not be so.


With the words of wisdom, as I mentioned it was very similar to cold reading. Of the 10 or so general claims, only one was verified. But it was a bit different to what was described before. Other people came up and said words of wisdom too, yet some were just proclaiming stuff, like... The meek will inherit the Earth.


It is my personal belief that spiritual gifts are a special rare occurrence. I also believe that when everyone proclaims they can do it then this takes away from the specialness and uniqueness of the gift since if every Tom, DIck and Harry can do it then it isn't that special, true? Further, it may also lead to a wrongful interpretation of outsiders into what the gift actually is, I don't think I need to explain what outsiders would say if they attended a church that had people making weird noises.

[JayShel]

Yet it seems from what I have seen that there are many more of these talkers in tongues in a pentecostal church than anywhere else. Honestly at my old church we didn't have anyone. Now this leads me to think that surely there must be some people who think they are talking in tongues but are not so. We can deceive ourselves with our own mind and feelings. Similar to how a young woman can deceive herself into thinking her relationship with her abusive boyfriend is good or good enough.

I am asking how are these gifts verified, I heard there are people who can interpret speaking in tongues, why is it that speaking in tongues is so prevalent without those who can interpret what is being "said". If I wanted to I could unload a list of babble myself, and this would most probably be regarded as "talking in tongues", imagine the surprise if I later reveal I was just speaking babble. Such a thing is deceptive so I probably won't do it, however it does show how quick people are to assume that someone has a gift even when in reality it may not be so.


With the words of wisdom, as I mentioned it was very similar to cold reading. Of the 10 or so general claims, only one was verified. But it was a bit different to what was described before. Other people came up and said words of wisdom too, yet some were just proclaiming stuff, like... The meek will inherit the Earth.


It is my personal belief that spiritual gifts are a special rare occurrence. I also believe that when everyone proclaims they can do it then this takes away from the specialness and uniqueness of the gift since if every Tom, DIck and Harry can do it then it isn't that special, true? Further, it may also lead to a wrongful interpretation of outsiders into what the gift actually is, I don't think I need to explain what outsiders would say if they attended a church that had people making weird noises.

I tend to agree with you. Spiritual gifts were given so that people would be certain that God is present. If you read the Bible passages about speaking in tongues, what you read is different than how it is in the Pentecostal church. I think that in many cases, the Pentecostal church puts so much pressure on people to speak in tongues to prove that they are saved, that they get people doing it just to fit in. It's a bad situation overall that comes from bad teaching. I know that people can be saved through a pentecostal church, but I also know that some people are led astray.

[gilbo12345]

Ok thanks Jay

Also what is your take on having a rock band instead of a choir and piano?

On one hand it does attract more younger people and people seem to enjoy it as it is more upbeat

On the other it could be compromising what church really is about, some of the younger ones may be there for the songs, not to worship
Once at a city wide all denomination service, (my hometown has 10,000-20,000 people so its small). I saw some younger kids playing on their phones during the sermon.... I cannot be sure which church they came from, but such disrespect really annoyed me, (hence I remember it).


One of the elders of my old church had the later view

[Remnant of The Abyss]

Also what is your take on having a rock band instead of a choir and piano?

On one hand it does attract more younger people and people seem to enjoy it as it is more upbeat

On the other it could be compromising what church really is about, some of the younger ones may be there for the songs, not to worship
Once at a city wide all denomination service, (my hometown has 10,000-20,000 people so its small). I saw some younger kids playing on their phones during the sermon.... I cannot be sure which church they came from, but such disrespect really annoyed me, (hence I remember it).

I've attended non denominational churches for years that have electric guitars, electronic drums, amplified everything, and contemporary music. If you think about it, even those in their '60's grew up with the Beatles and wouldn't be adverse to contemporary Christian music. I think this kind of music instead of the choir and piano can be very effective for worship. It's not just the younger people who get into it.

If the younger people are there for just the "songs" and not really to "worship" I say so what. God can use the music to prepare their hearts to the message that they are about to receive. In fact, this is one of the principal goals of worship prior to the Pastor taking the podium.

Some churches have a separate "youth service" taking place at the same time as the main service so as to minister to the younger folks. The youth go into their separate rooms for their teaching (led by elders) after the main worship service. And cell phones are not permitted.

[JayShel]

Ok thanks Jay

Also what is your take on having a rock band instead of a choir and piano?

On one hand it does attract more younger people and people seem to enjoy it as it is more upbeat

On the other it could be compromising what church really is about, some of the younger ones may be there for the songs, not to worship
Once at a city wide all denomination service, (my hometown has 10,000-20,000 people so its small). I saw some younger kids playing on their phones during the sermon.... I cannot be sure which church they came from, but such disrespect really annoyed me, (hence I remember it).


One of the elders of my old church had the later view

A rock band or a piano are just different ways of worshiping God, so both are fine. No two churches are the same. Deciding on which church to attend comes down to many things. I personally think praying about it is the most effective way to go about deciding. God will guide you.

I went to a non-denominational church that told me a list of things to look for in a friend or wife. The last thing on the list was, ironically, "Jesus first", so I decided to take their advice and move on.

I avoid Methodist churches due to their tendency to compromise on g*y pastors (I think pastors should be repentant of that which the Bible calls sin). I also don't like the way they switch pastors often but that's just me.

It might be helpful for you to research denominations. Baptist (not Westboro Baptist) just tend to be the people with the most consistently Biblical doctrine as far as I can tell, so I tend to seek Baptist churches first. Latterday Saints are Mormon not Christian though they claim to be, they worship a different Jesus. Unitarian or Universalist are against the trinity doctrine and believe all people go to heaven respectively, so they are un-biblical. I could go on...

I chose the church that I currently attend because I had some issues weighing on my mind, and the sermon spoke directly to my worries (and at the same time, my wife's worries too which weren't the same worries as mine).

[Portillo]

Is that what they are called?

May I ask for the reasons why you say to stay away.

Their theology is really bad. I once went to one church that didnt even read the Bible. There was no sermon. Just dancing, jumping and running around like an idiot. Go to a church that actually respects the Bible and enjoys learning about God.

[Remnant of The Abyss]

Their theology is really bad. I once went to one church that didnt even read the Bible. There was no sermon. Just dancing, jumping and running around like an idiot. Go to a church that actually respects the Bible and enjoys learning about God.

So you're sticking to your story that ALL Pentecostal churches are bad because 'once' you went to one and it was off? That's quite an assumption if indeed you're making one.

[Portillo]

Im talking about the ones that make people run around, fall down, act like idiots and make farm animal noises.

[JayShel]

To be honest, no church is perfect.


Just avoid those churches that actively pursue heretical, extra-biblical doctrine and attempt to tamper with or add to repenting of sins before God and believing in Jesus Christ's sacrifice for your salvation.

[Remnant of The Abyss]

Im talking about the ones that make people run around, fall down, act like idiots and make farm animal noises.

Great. Then we are in agreement. ALL Pentecostal churches are not "bad", it's the ones that are disorderly (un-Biblical), as you've stated.

Of course their are other reasons as well why a church may be unworthy, as JS pointed out.

[MamaElephant]

I love it when I find agreement to what the Lord is teaching me. The problem that I have with the video is Paul addressed speaking in tongues within a church meeting, so it isn't just for witnessing to unbelievers, from 11:50-13:40, and asking someone to speak in a certain language is testing God is it not? but most of this I agree with.

There are churches who believe that spiritual gifts have been done away with and I think that they are harming themselves with this belief... they are dampening God's Spirit.

[Nash]

Concerning tongues, there are many lines of argument, e.g
1. some argue around whether its even Biblical
2. Some argue that yes, though it happened in the early Church its nolonger part of today's church
3. some argue on the administration of the gift.
I think the first argument falls if we take the authority of the Word of God, Acts 2:1-13. Those who argue that its demonic and that it was meant for the early church, well, i think the trouble is in proving this line of thinking and establishing when tongues ceased in the church and when did the demonic take over. From a study of scripture we really dont have basis for believing that spiritual gifts were meant to cease at some point. To me this argument is like saying all written Christian material outside of the bible is wrong because you are not supposed to 'add or subtract' on the written word. Believe you me some do believe this and they read no other material save the Bible.
Moving on to what causes the most noise, i.e the administration of spiritual gifts/how its done in the church. I understand the conservative, but if i may ask, does Acts 2 give an orderly way to speak in tongues? my point is not whether what the writer experienced was wrong or right, but what we can deduce from Acts 2 is that they ALL prayed in tongues and its not over-fantasizing if we take it as they prayed AT THE SAME TIME. Again we see that it was to the extent that IT CAUSED A STIR, and some even concluded that THEY WERE DRUNK. Now for us to then claim that the modern day speaking in tongues is demonic because of the way its done I think its kinda hard to qualify that accusation.
To help out a little bit more let me say there are two scenarios of speaking in tongues. One is when you pray to God for yourself were 'we dont know how to pray as we ought to' but 'the spirit helps in our weakness', and 'he who prays in tongues edifies himself'. so then if a church recognizes mass praying then each congregant is free to pray in tongues or pray in their own language or a mixture of both coz Paul says I pray in tongues but i also pray with my understanding. The second scenario is speaking in tongues as a ministry gift to the church where Paul then advises that we pray one at a time, and someone must interpret, otherwise those who speak in tongues must keep quiet.
I can conclude my contribution by saying that the Bible does recognize that problems can arise because of the administration of spiritual gifts. The Church at Corinth was the most gifted and it had the most problems but 'all things that happened beforehand happened for our learning'. The bible through the Apostle Paul then devotes Cor 12-14 to teaching the proper use of Spiritual gifts. I think that is what we need to learn otherwise we end up calling everything thats contrary to our upbringing 'demonic' or such other words.

[Salsa]

Those who argue that its demonic and that it was meant for the early church, well, i think the trouble is in proving this line of thinking and establishing when tongues ceased in the church and when did the demonic take over.

Not only that. Most people combine praying in tongues with praising and worshiping Jesus. According to scripture this would be practically impossible to do (1 Cor 12:1-3).

I was raised in an occult environment with groups of people visiting out house on a weekly based to hold seances in the midst of our home. You could hear all kinds of "voices" that according to my parents came from the spirit world, but none of them ever praised Jesus.

Moving on to what causes the most noise, i.e the administration of spiritual gifts/how its done in the church. I understand the conservative, but if i may ask, does Acts 2 give an orderly way to speak in tongues? my point is not whether what the writer experienced was wrong or right, but what we can deduce from Acts 2 is that they ALL prayed in tongues and its not over-fantasizing if we take it as they prayed AT THE SAME TIME. Again we see that it was to the extent that IT CAUSED A STIR, and some even concluded that THEY WERE DRUNK. Now for us to then claim that the modern day speaking in tongues is demonic because of the way its done I think its kinda hard to qualify that accusation.
To help out a little bit more let me say there are two scenarios of speaking in tongues. One is when you pray to God for yourself were 'we dont know how to pray as we ought to' but 'the spirit helps in our weakness', and 'he who prays in tongues edifies himself'. so then if a church recognizes mass praying then each congregant is free to pray in tongues or pray in their own language or a mixture of both coz Paul says I pray in tongues but i also pray with my understanding. The second scenario is speaking in tongues as a ministry gift to the church where Paul then advises that we pray one at a time, and someone must interpret, otherwise those who speak in tongues must keep quiet.
I can conclude my contribution by saying that the Bible does recognize that problems can arise because of the administration of spiritual gifts. The Church at Corinth was the most gifted and it had the most problems but 'all things that happened beforehand happened for our learning'. The bible through the Apostle Paul then devotes Cor 12-14 to teaching the proper use of Spiritual gifts. I think that is what we need to learn otherwise we end up calling everything thats contrary to our upbringing 'demonic' or such other words.

I think one should also take into account that the church at Corinth lacked the kind of amplification that we have today. Noise and disorder would have been a far greater problem then than it is now. Today most services seem to be divided relative neatly into an introductory praise and worship session followed by some kind of intelligible sermon and perhaps ending with more noisy stuff... a little bit for everyone perhaps..