Jump to content


Photo

Myoglobin / Hemoglobin


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
12 replies to this topic

#1 Nitai

Nitai

    Junior Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 15 posts
  • Age: 40
  • no affiliation
  • Creationist
  • Amsterdam

Posted 10 May 2005 - 12:16 PM

Hello,

I am interested if there are any living entities without hemoglobin and myoglobin; and in what environment they live. The scientists say that there was a time when living entities lived without these two ingredients and then at once the protoglobin appeared.

tnx
Nitai

#2 Modulous

Modulous

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 246 posts
  • Age: 24
  • no affiliation
  • Theistic Evolutionist
  • United Kingdom

Posted 10 May 2005 - 01:23 PM

Hello,

I am interested if there are any living entities without hemoglobin and myoglobin; and in what environment they live. The scientists say that there was a time when living entities lived without these two ingredients and then at once the protoglobin appeared.

tnx
Nitai

View Post



I could be wrong, but I think most living entities exist without hemoglobin and myglobin since aren't these unique to vertebrates?

#3 chance

chance

    Veteran Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2029 posts
  • Age: 51
  • no affiliation
  • Atheist
  • Australia

Posted 10 May 2005 - 01:42 PM

I could be wrong, but I think most living entities exist without hemoglobin and myglobin since aren't these unique to vertebrates?

View Post


I would think that’s correct, as Haemoglobin carries oxygen to the red blood cells, while myoglobin carries oxygen to the muscle. One would conclude that, bacterial, viral, fungus, plant, and single celled organisms should not have either.

#4 Method

Method

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 174 posts
  • Age: 29
  • no affiliation
  • Agnostic
  • State of Bliss

Posted 10 May 2005 - 02:10 PM

From just a quick read, and from memory, hemoglobins/myoglobins are found in the vertebrate phylogeny. The sea-squirt is recognized as a representative of the basal vertebrates and research has no active hemoglobin genes, but precursors are present
.

Mol Biol Evol. 2003 Sep;20(9):1521-5. Epub 2003 Jun 27.
 
Globin genes are present in Ciona intestinalis.

Ebner B, Burmester T, Hankeln T.

Institute of Molecular Genetics, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany.

The key position of the Ciona intestinalis basal to the vertebrate phylogenetic tree brings up the question of which respiratory proteins are used by the tunicate to facilitate oxygen transport and storage. The publication of the Ciona draft genome sequence suggests that globin genes are completely missing and that-like some molluscs and arthropods-the sea squirt uses hemocyanin instead of hemoglobin for respiration. However, we report here the presence and expression of at least four distinct globin gene/protein sequences in Ciona. This finding is in agreement with the ancestral phylogeny of the vertebrate globins. Moreover, it seems likely that the Ciona hemocyanin-like sequences have enzymatic instead of respiratory functions.


Hemocyanin is a protein that uses copper instead of iron for the binding of oxygen. Hemocyanins are also found in molluscs (as mentioned) and in crustaceans. It is also interesting that some bacteria use metallo-proteins to carry out chemical reactions involved in producing energy, such as some clostridial species that use ferredoxins containing around 4 iron molecules in conjuction with 4 sulfur molecules.

#5 Guest_Paul C. Anagnostopoulos_*

Guest_Paul C. Anagnostopoulos_*
  • Guests

Posted 10 May 2005 - 03:56 PM

More information:

http://webusers.xula.../RespPigm1.html

~~ Paul

#6 chance

chance

    Veteran Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2029 posts
  • Age: 51
  • no affiliation
  • Atheist
  • Australia

Posted 10 May 2005 - 06:56 PM

More information:

http://webusers.xula.../RespPigm1.html

~~ Paul

View Post


Good link, What is fascinating is the differing solutions of conveying oxygen used by the different life forms (even related species).

Paraphrased from the link.

There are 4 different types of ‘Hemoglobin’. in the animal kingdom:

Hemoglobin (Vertebrate and Invertebrate)
Hemocyanin (Arthropods, Molluscs)
Hemeryhtrin (one family of Polychates and a few other smaller phyla)
Chlorocruorin. (Polychaetes)

#7 Nitai

Nitai

    Junior Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 15 posts
  • Age: 40
  • no affiliation
  • Creationist
  • Amsterdam

Posted 10 May 2005 - 10:49 PM

Good link, What is fascinating is the differing solutions of conveying oxygen used by the different life forms (even related species).

Paraphrased from the link.

There are 4 different types of ‘Hemoglobin’. in the animal kingdom:

Hemoglobin (Vertebrate and Invertebrate)
Hemocyanin (Arthropods, Molluscs)
Hemeryhtrin (one family of Polychates and a few other smaller phyla)
Chlorocruorin. (Polychaetes)

View Post


Tnx, very interesting.
Now, evolutionists say that in the very beginning there was no myoglobin and hemoglobin in the living entities.
I read that tha icefish can very nicely live in the cold Antarctic environment without hemoglobin AND myoglobin. Why I mention this? Because i have a speculation that the first living beings without myoglobon and hemoglobin could survive only in the same type of cold environment.
However this is not at all probable. The atmosphere was very hot and very gaseous. So, if we would accept Darwinistic thinking what kind of living entities would live in that environment? Some kind of extremophiles?

NOTE 1: I don't try to argue for evolution but find out contradictions in the theory.
NOTE 2: I am not a proffesional scientist, so you can lough about my speculations.

#8 Modulous

Modulous

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 246 posts
  • Age: 24
  • no affiliation
  • Theistic Evolutionist
  • United Kingdom

Posted 11 May 2005 - 03:25 AM

Because i have a speculation that the first living beings without myoglobon and hemoglobin could survive only in the same type of cold environment.
However this is not at all probable. The atmosphere was very hot and very gaseous. So, if we would accept Darwinistic thinking what kind of living entities would live in that environment? Some kind of extremophiles?

View Post


Do the single celled organisms we have to today require circulatory systems? bacteria can live in all sorts of hostile places .

In fact, if you google search extremophiles you will find links to lots of living beings that can survive extreme conditions.

#9 chance

chance

    Veteran Member

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2029 posts
  • Age: 51
  • no affiliation
  • Atheist
  • Australia

Posted 11 May 2005 - 01:36 PM

Tnx, very interesting.
Now, evolutionists say that in the very beginning there was no myoglobin and hemoglobin in the living entities.
I read that tha icefish can very nicely live in the cold Antarctic environment without hemoglobin AND myoglobin. Why I mention this? Because i have a speculation that the first living beings without myoglobon and hemoglobin could survive only in the same type of cold environment.
However this is not at all probable. The atmosphere was very hot and very gaseous. So, if we would accept Darwinistic thinking what kind of living entities would live in that environment? Some kind of extremophiles?

NOTE 1: I don't try to argue for evolution but find out contradictions in the theory.
NOTE 2: I am not a proffesional scientist, so you can lough about my speculations.

View Post


Well in the beginning there was no blood either! So why pick on hemoglobins?

An observation – if there is an environment (and a food source) that can support life, life will occupy that niche.

#10 Method

Method

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 174 posts
  • Age: 29
  • no affiliation
  • Agnostic
  • State of Bliss

Posted 12 May 2005 - 09:52 AM

Tnx, very interesting.
Now, evolutionists say that in the very beginning there was no myoglobin and hemoglobin in the living entities.
I read that tha icefish can very nicely live in the cold Antarctic environment without hemoglobin AND myoglobin. Why I mention this? Because i have a speculation that the first living beings without myoglobon and hemoglobin could survive only in the same type of cold environment.
However this is not at all probable. The atmosphere was very hot and very gaseous. So, if we would accept Darwinistic thinking what kind of living entities would live in that environment? Some kind of extremophiles?

NOTE 1: I don't try to argue for evolution but find out contradictions in the theory.
NOTE 2: I am not a proffesional scientist, so you can lough about my speculations.

View Post


If you are a scientist then you should have understood the implications of the abstract I posted above. It stated that Ciona intestinalis , a basal vertebrate (ie urochordata), does not have hemoglobin or myoglobin and yet these sea squirts inhabit temperate and tropical waters. Instead, these sea squirts use hemocyanin, but do have hemoglobin precursors which could have evolved later in vertebrate evolution.

#11 Nitai

Nitai

    Junior Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 15 posts
  • Age: 40
  • no affiliation
  • Creationist
  • Amsterdam

Posted 13 May 2005 - 11:19 AM

Thanks for everything.

To be honest I am not at all the scientist and to do some research and learn something about it is just my hobby. So, if you like to blame for my small or wrong understanding, no problem. One who is more advanced in knowledge is in the position of teacher and the teacher can chastise the student.

But anyway, could somebody of you give a scheme, from which most simple globin were developing the other globins and how the very first globin developed.

And once more, I didn't get really, which is that living being abel to live without any type of globin?

Tnx in advance.
Nitai

#12 Method

Method

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 174 posts
  • Age: 29
  • no affiliation
  • Agnostic
  • State of Bliss

Posted 13 May 2005 - 12:06 PM

To be honest I am not at all the scientist and to do some research and learn something about it is just my hobby. So, if you like to blame for my small or wrong understanding, no problem. One who is more advanced in knowledge is in the position of teacher and the teacher can chastise the student.


That was my fault. I thought you claimed to be a professional scientist when in fact you were claiming the opposite. I got a little excited and skipped the word "not". Please accept my apologies.

But anyway, could somebody of you give a scheme, from which most simple globin were developing the other globins and how the very first globin developed.


The hemoglobin family was theoretically evolved through gene duplication. Here is an excerpt from here which is written by Douglas Futyama, a leading author in biology.

Over the course of vertebrate evolution, gene duplication has given rise to a family of hemoglobin genes that have diverged in function. The hemoglobin of the lamprey, a primitive jawless vertebrate, consists of a single protein chain (a monomer), encoded by a single gene. In jawed vertebrates such as fishes and mammals, hemoglobin is a tetramer: an aggregate of four chains of two types (alpha and beta), encoded by two genes with related sequences. This tetramer has a cooperative oxygen-binding capacity not available to the lamprey. In salmon, quadruple copies of the beta gene, differing slightly in sequence, yield four types of hemoglobin with different, adaptive oxygen-loading properties.1 In mammals, successive duplications of the beta gene gave rise to the gamma and epsilon chains, which characterize the hemoglobin of the fetus and early embryo respectively, and enhance uptake of oxygen from the mother. Thus a succession of gene duplications, widely spaced through evolutionary time, has led to the "irreducibly complex" system of respiratory proteins in mammals. In addition, some duplicate hemoglobin genes have become pseudogenes: sequences similar to functional hemoglobin genes but bearing mutations that abolish their function. These sequences show that superfluous genes rapidly degenerate.


And once more, I didn't get really, which is that living being abel to live without any type of globin?


I mean no offense, but is English your first language? If not, please ask for clarification where necessary. Even if English is your first language you can still ask.:P

Anyway, all single celled life (bacteria, yeast, algae) does not have hemoglobin. Invertebrates also do not have hemoglobin but some do have hemocyanin, a protein that uses copper instead of iron like that found in hemoglobin. Only vertebrates (fish, mammals, reptiles, amphibians) use hemoglobin.

If you want to read more do a google search using the following keywords (include the quotation marks): hemoglobin "vertebrate evolution".

#13 Modulous

Modulous

    Banned

  • Banned
  • PipPipPip
  • 246 posts
  • Age: 24
  • no affiliation
  • Theistic Evolutionist
  • United Kingdom

Posted 13 May 2005 - 12:12 PM

And once more, I didn't get really, which is that living being abel to live without any type of globin?


Invertebrates. circulatory system. Instead of globin I believe invertebrates generally use hemolymph.

If you want to get into the real nitty gritty details of it all though, you'll have to step away from forums and possibly the internet altogether and find a few books.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users