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#1 ikester7579

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 01:26 AM

This is sick because this guy is taking advantage of so many people. Takes their money and demands complete control over people.

http://www.godtube.c...pe=&category=md

Now this is a prime example of why predestination is wrong. Predestination is complete control with no choice. Which is what this guy does. Cults demand complete control as well. The wacko incident is a example of this. This guy mocks God openly, but it fulfills scripture.

#2 Fred Williams

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Posted 02 September 2007 - 04:53 PM

This is sick because this guy is taking advantage of so many people. Takes their money and demands complete control over people.

http://www.godtube.c...pe=&category=md

Now this is a prime example of why predestination is wrong. Predestination is complete control with no choice. Which is what this guy does. Cults demand complete control as well. The wacko incident is a example of this. This guy mocks God openly, but it fulfills scripture.

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Isaac, I agree with you completely. This is indeed a prime example of the justification that can happen when someone believes they were "predestined". The "world" (see 1 Cor 3:19) also believes in a form of pre-destination, except they use the word "fate" instead. Do you notice how the word "fate" is easily thrown around in movies and the news?

Whenever a proposed Biblical doctrine shares any common ground with what the world beleives, it should give the believer serious pause. I submit that its not simply a yellow flag, its a red flag.

(OK, for those wondering what I'm referring to, or think I am beating around the bush, I'm referring to the false teaching of Calvinism! :) Many of its tenets, such as predestination, share or find their roots in world philosophy).

Fred

#3 ikester7579

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Posted 26 September 2007 - 03:50 AM

Here is a thought provoking post I left at another forum on this subject:

Without getting into a huge debate on this and how it connects to the Calvinist doctrine and OSAS (once saved always saved). I do not believe that God runs a controlled matrix. Where every one is a string along puppet. Where we will all go to hell, or heaven, and we have no says so on the deal. That it was basically predetermined even before we were born.

Just because God said that he knew us before we were born, does not mean we are predestined.

Example:
Why did Adam and Eve have a choice about the tree of knowledge if we are all predestined?

Why did Christ go to the cross if we are predestined?

Why do we have to say the sinners prayer if we are predestined?

Why even have a bible if we are predestined?

Why preach or teach the word of God?

Predestination means our actions have no bearing on our eternal destination. So God's word becomes void because why would we need to follow it if our future is already predetermined regardless?

#4 4jacks

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Posted 26 September 2007 - 11:06 AM

Predestination means our actions have no bearing on our eternal destination.



Don't get me wrong I left the Presbyterian church a bit ago. But that statement worries me.

We are saved by grace through faith not our actions (works). That does indeed mean our actions have no bearing on our eternal destination.

You can't link OSAS & predestination together.

#5 ikester7579

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Posted 26 September 2007 - 09:30 PM

Don't get me wrong I left the Presbyterian church a bit ago.  But that statement worries me.


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Works cannot save you. This is the fright factor the OSAS preachers likes to say about the no-OSAS doctrine. It preaches works, which is wrong. Why?

There are 2 types of works.

1) Carnal works, which are works of the flesh.
2) Kingdom works, which is doing the works Christ commanded us to do upon being saved.


We are saved by grace through faith not our actions (works).  That does indeed mean our actions have no bearing on our eternal destination.


And we can fall from grace, which cancels out being saved by grace. Not that grace does not save you, but that falling from grace unsaves you.

gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

1) How does Christ become of no effect unto a unsaved sinner? Only the saved are affected by Christ. So when Christ becomes of no effect, ye fall from grace.

2) What is being justified by the law? Believing that your sins a justified (made right through any law that goes around the blood of Christ), ye are fallen from Grace. This means that accepting anything other than the new covenant, is a carnal law that will not work.

Why? gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Is there any verses that just plainly say that one can lose their salvation?

heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1) Fall away: Is like falling from grace. Grace is what keeps us in salvation while we will make mistakes (sin). So grace is extended to man kind because we are not perfect.

2) To renew them again: Unsaved sinners were never renewed through salvation. So this is speaking of renewal of the saved who fell away. The word "again" makes it more clearer that it is a repeat of what ever change (salvation) took place.

3) Repentance: Only the saved are able to repent, and it have any meaning. An unsaved sinner repents thinking he can some how impress God, he is making his own way and his own law to enter into heaven. This is what works are. They are works done by a unsaved person that have no meaning. But the person thinks they do. This is like the golden rule, where people often say: I'm a good person. Why should I go to hell? The law of the good life is making a doctrine to go to heaven that goes around Christ.

4) seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh: Christ only died once for one salvation of man. To reject this covenant is to fall away. For God to give it back, another covenant has to be made.

You see, once a covenant is considered broken by the covenant maker, it cannot be renewed. Only a new covenant can be made, which means that Christ would have to crawl back on the cross and do it all over again. Which would put Him to shame.

The word "themselves" shows that this problem is one that they themselves have caused. So for Christ to renew them, He would have to shed his blood for each that did this (one covenant per person who fell away). That's not going to happen.

If you can fall from grace, you can also fall from salvation:

rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

What is "fall salvation"? Salvation is following a narrow path. To stray is to fall to the wayside. yield to temptation or sin; "Adam and Eve fell".

So fall salvation is making salvation a temptation to sin. God's word says that this is called liberty to sin.

1cor 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your's become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

etc....

You can't link OSAS & predestination together.


Predestination and OSAS go together because:

If you cannot lose your salvation ever, you are what? Predestined for heaven, correct? Having no choice is predestination. This is why OSAS doctrine works so well in the doctrine of calvinism.

Being able to reject salvation equals a choice, and cancels out predestination. Because how can salvation be predestination when you can choose not to go to heaven?

#6 ikester7579

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Posted 28 September 2007 - 06:23 PM

4jacks,

Just so you understand, I have debated this subject in just about every way possible. I have tested it, changed my mind on it more than once. Even became confused to a point I was not sure what to believe. But, because I stuck it out, and I wanted truth. And I was not searching things just to be right. I finally found truth.

To be right was not important to me because I started out believing OSAS. I just did not agree with some of what was being teached by some preachers about the subject. Like I have heard some OSAS preachers, including my own (when I used to go to that church), strongly imply that salvation was a ticket to sin because salvation could never be lost. I had a friend kill himself when he OD-ed on drugs because he thought he could just sin and never lose salvation.

1cor 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your's become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

He was weak in his faith, and the OSAS teaching allowed his weakness to kill him. Does that sound like what Christ died for on the cross? Now I know it comes as a shock to consider you might be wrong. It did me as well. Because when you put faith into something and then have it questioned to a point that makes you question what you believe. It's shocking.

I tell people not to just jump on the no-osas boat because that would be wrong. I tell then to search it out for themselves.

First study the Doctrine of Balaam: http://www.google.co...doctrine balaam

Keep an eye out for the words: stumbling block. Salvation is not supposed to become a stumbling block. The doctrine of Balaam (OSAS) does this. Also notice what the stumbling block is.

Also do a word search in the bible on the words liberty and sin. This also exposes the balaam doctrine (osas).

Now, the biggest support verse that osas people always refer to is this:

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

Show me where in God's word that the word "hands" is a reference to salvation? Hands are a reference to blessing and curing. Right hand is the hand of blessings. Left hand is the hand of cursing.

Example: While Christ was on the cross, there were two people on the crosses next to Him. One on the left, one on the right. Now which do you think cursed Christ, and which do you think pleaded for mercy?

Example 2: Matthew 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Being in the hands of Christ only mean that you will be judged by Christ. Which hand you are in upon judgement day will show where you will go upon being judged. You won't find it anywhere in God's word that say the hands of Christ save you. Hands are for blessing and cursing. And for healing. Not for salvation.

So being in the hands of Christ, and not being plucked out. Means you will be "judged" by Christ (left hand right hand judgement). Why? Once you accept the new covenant, you are in Christ's hands for judgement. Once there, you cannot be judged anywhere else, even if you reject that covenant.

Can Father God judge you for rejecting the Son's covenant? No. Why? because God will be judging unsaved sinners that are pulled from hell. This is why there are the book of life judgement, and the left hand right hand judgement.

#7 Countic16

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 03:49 PM

This is sick because this guy is taking advantage of so many people. Takes their money and demands complete control over people.

http://www.godtube.c...pe=&category=md

Now this is a prime example of why predestination is wrong. Predestination is complete control with no choice. Which is what this guy does. Cults demand complete control as well. The wacko incident is a example of this. This guy mocks God openly, but it fulfills scripture.

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Actually, thats a prime example of what happens when we have choice. The man CHOSE to deceive others. Predestination is not only not wrong, but its Biblical. Predestination also does not mean that there is no choice.

#8 ikester7579

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 03:11 AM

Actually, thats a prime example of what happens when we have choice.  The man CHOSE to deceive others.  Predestination is not only not wrong, but its Biblical.  Predestination also does not mean that there is no choice.

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That's an oxymoron.

#9 Countic16

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 06:44 AM

This is sick because this guy is taking advantage of so many people. Takes their money and demands complete control over people.

http://www.godtube.c...pe=&category=md

  Now this is a prime example of why predestination is wrong. Predestination is complete control with no choice. Which is what this guy does. Cults demand complete control as well. The wacko incident is a example of this. This guy mocks God openly, but it fulfills scripture.

View Post


Although agreed completely that the guy is sick, as are his followers...thats hardly a case of predestination and a very low blow at the least. So lets put this together properly, shall we? A MAN is granted total power and authority and abuses it. Yep...seems pretty consistent with mankind's general nature to be totally depraved. Thats not a harp against predestination, thats a harp against mankind's ability to be "good" whenever power is granted to him.

In the future, don't bash predestination by trying to exemplify it through a human being. Keep it where it belongs, on a supreme and righteous God.

#10 Countic16

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 06:47 AM

"Without getting into a huge debate on this and how it connects to the Calvinist doctrine and OSAS (once saved always saved). I do not believe that God runs a controlled matrix. Where every one is a string along puppet. Where we will all go to hell, or heaven, and we have no says so on the deal. That it was basically predetermined even before we were born.

Just because God said that he knew us before we were born, does not mean we are predestined." -IK

Well, just remember that you are kindly ignoring the rest of scripture that blatantly states predestination as truth. But, you knew I knew that already from our previous posts...of which neither you nor Fred have created scriptural refutation for, yet.

Remember, in the end...denying God power and authority = what? Rebellion.

#11 Countic16

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 06:53 AM

"Works cannot save you. This is the fright factor the OSAS preachers likes to say about the no-OSAS doctrine. It preaches works, which is wrong. Why?

There are 2 types of works.

1) Carnal works, which are works of the flesh.
2) Kingdom works, which is doing the works Christ commanded us to do upon being saved." -IK

Though you make differentiation, the Bible makes none. It says all works, big fat all, and then gives no exceptions, no alternate definitions. As far as the Bible goes, neither works by 1) nor by 2) will get a person into heaven. All works fall short of being able to save.

You gave a lot of talk about "falling from grace" that gives very little scriptural referance into definining it. There was a lot of talk about a point never represented in scripture. In the end, it can be refutted by a much simpler explanation, an explanation specifically addressed throughout scripture, but you refuse to accept it. It is called "being drawn" like a net full of fish is drawn into a boat. Draw means as draw does. Its one way. God draws us to him, or else we never swim into the boat. That easy, simple, and plain understanding of what scripture says = you don't have to create elaborate concepts to try to explain why people would ever not choose Christ. The answer becomes real easy: God did it.

Off to work now...I'll be back later.

#12 Countic16

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 06:56 AM

That's an oxymoron.

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Only according to you. Not according to the Bible. The Bible is very clear that both predestination and free will exist. You cannot fathom the two together, even though you have not expressed refutation of why the are absolutely contradictory. If you did prove their contradiction, you would prove the Bible to be contradictory also, btw.

#13 ikester7579

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 11:12 PM

What is your definition of predestination, and what is your definition of free will?




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