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#1 ikester7579

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 03:46 AM

First I'm going to use some scripture then explain what's being said

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

For me the drawing power was a sudden uncontrollable urge to go forward and accept Christ. the thing was I was not even thinking about that when it happened. it was like a voice said: You need to go forward to accept Christ and you need to go now. This happened during the alter call. I was around eight or nine don;t remember exactly, Afterwards it was like the world had changed, it was a weird feeling. The thing was it was only me that had changed.

So if a person did not feel the drawing power to get saved then there is a possibility they were not saved. And this would be Satan's deception upon them making them think they are saved but yet living a lie. So when I read testimonies of x-Christians where they tell the story that they supposedly got saved because the rest of the family was. Then what they did was not true so what was expected (having a relationship with God) would never have happened.

Because Christ lives within our hearts, our hearts have to be truly in it and we have to mean what is said when we say it. So to go forward to accept Christ with no drawing power and to speak words that basically have no meaning because you were not really serious means you more than likely are not truly saved. The reason I do not commit totally to saying someone is not truly saved is because only God can determine this for sure.

But if you feel as if you are praying to no one. And your prayers seem to have no meaning and they are never answered. And you feel spiritually alone all the time. This is an indication that something is wrong. Because if you do not have Christ as your savior to be the mediator for you so that your prayers are heard. then your prayers are falling upon death ears as to the reason they are never answered. And you feel spiritually alone because spiritually there is no one there,

Getting saved is also like getting married. If your heart is not in it and you just go through the motions, then it's not real and it won't last. You see Christ will not enter into a covenant relationship unless your heart is truly in it. So all the words in the world mean nothing when spoken to get saved if they did not come from your heart.

But on the other end, if you are spiritually aware of God, your prayers get answered, and you can feel that you are praying to someone. Then you are saved.

So if what I have said here brings conviction into your life it's because of one of two things.

1) You need to get right with God to be on better terms with God (saved but God is silent because you do not try to live a Christ like life).
2) You really need to seek out whether you were saved or not.

#2 Teejay

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 03:08 PM

[quote] name='ikester7579' timestamp='1330166815' post='80543']
First I'm going to use some scripture then explain what's being said

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/quote]

Ikester,

Do you interpret this passage to mean that those who go to Hell are there because the Father did not "draw them"? If so, what do you do with John 12:32?

[quote]For me the drawing power was a sudden uncontrollable urge to go forward and accept Christ. the thing was I was not even thinking about that when it happened. it was like a voice said: You need to go forward to accept Christ and you need to go now. This happened during the alter call. I was around eight or nine don;t remember exactly, Afterwards it was like the world had changed, it was a weird feeling. The thing was it was only me that had changed.[/quote]

If the drawing power was "uncontrollable" to accept Jesus, does this mean that you were drawn against your will to reject Him?

[quote]So if a person did not feel the drawing power to get saved then there is a possibility they were not saved. And this would be Satan's deception upon them making them think they are saved but yet living a lie. So when I read testimonies of x-Christians where they tell the story that they supposedly got saved because the rest of the family was. Then what they did was not true so what was expected (having a relationship with God) would never have happened.[/quote]

Are there people who God is not drawing? I think not. Now I will admit that the Holy Spirit can back off if we continually ignore Him or reject Him. It's God's will that "all" will be saved. This is one example where "all" really means all. God created and uses language such that words have a range of meaning, and frequently we seriously err if we exaggerate or misconstrue the text simply by taking the words literally or interpreting them solely by their immediate context. Sometimes definitions of words sufficiently convey the meaning of a statement: "David slew Galiath" for example. At other times, the meaning comes through the immediate context of the chapter. Sometimes the entire context of the book is needed to properly understand the phrase. And at other times, the meaning comes through knowing the true nature of God, and the overall message of the entire Bible: "I said, 'You are gods,'" (John 10:34). Thus if we take Christ's words literally, we would exaggerate His point and reinforce a Mormon-like polytheism.

The word "all" is frequently used as a figure of speech, and when related to God, it is rightly interpreted as literal meaning (without exception) or figurative (most, many or some) based on God;s actual nature. In the context of our "adoption as sons," Paul writes that believers are "predestined according to the purpose of Him who works "all" things according to the counsel of His will (Eph. 1:11). Yet he also writes that "God... desires all men to be saved" (1 Tim. 2:3-4). If God works "all" things and desires salvation for "all" then one of these ALLs must not be literal, but is used as a figure of speech, meaning many. So we must start by looking at the widest possible context, that is, the nature of God Himself to see the open and closed theists differ.

[quote]Because Christ lives within our hearts, our hearts have to be truly in it and we have to mean what is said when we say it. So to go forward to accept Christ with no drawing power and to speak words that basically have no meaning because you were not really serious means you more than likely are not truly saved. The reason I do not commit totally to saying someone is not truly saved is because only God can determine this for sure.[/quote]

Ikester, before I respond to this paragraph, some questions:

Do you believe that we can lose our salvation? Or is it assured?

If only God can determine if we are saved, then how can we be saved by faith in him?

[quote]But if you feel as if you are praying to no one. And your prayers seem to have no meaning and they are never answered. And you feel spiritually alone all the time. This is an indication that something is wrong. Because if you do not have Christ as your savior to be the mediator for you so that your prayers are heard. then your prayers are falling upon death ears as to the reason they are never answered. And you feel spiritually alone because spiritually there is no one there,[/quote]

I submit that before we pray, we should find out what prayers God will not answer. I have known couples where the wife is pregnant and they pray to have a little girl or a little boy--as if God is in the s@x change business. Paul found out that Jesus' "grace was sufficient." Our faith in Jesus to save us through His sacrifice should never be based on what we see (miracles), for "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10:17). I do agree that unless we have accepted Jesus as our Lord, we pray in vain, "for no one comes to the Father except through Jesus."

[quote]Getting saved is also like getting married. If your heart is not in it and you just go through the motions, then it's not real and it won't last. You see Christ will not enter into a covenant relationship unless your heart is truly in it. So all the words in the world mean nothing when spoken to get saved if they did not come from your heart.[/quote]

I so agree. Many people accept Jesus for the wrong reasons. Many ministries today preach that if you accept Jesus, your marriage will be healed, your ingrown toe nails will magically disappear, and you will be financially blessed, etc.. All of these, are the wrong reasons for accepting Jesus as our Savior. Jesus died to save sinners and if we accept Him for any other reason we are accepting Him for the wrong reason. When tribulation comes, these tiypes of superficial converts abandon Christianity.

[quote]But on the other end, if you are spiritually aware of God, your prayers get answered, and you can feel that you are praying to someone. Then you are saved.

So if what I have said here brings conviction into your life it's because of one of two things.

1) You need to get right with God to be on better terms with God (saved but God is silent because you do not try to live a Christ like life).
2) You really need to seek out whether you were saved or not.
[/quote]

Evidence that we are saved is our"trust" in what He has promised in His word. If we are trusing in God by what we see with our eyes, then no faith is required. And God says that without faith it is impossible to please God.

TeeJay

#3 MamaElephant

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 05:42 PM

First I'm going to use some scripture then explain what's being said

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

For me the drawing power was a sudden uncontrollable urge to go forward and accept Christ. the thing was I was not even thinking about that when it happened. it was like a voice said: You need to go forward to accept Christ and you need to go now. This happened during the alter call. I was around eight or nine don;t remember exactly, Afterwards it was like the world had changed, it was a weird feeling. The thing was it was only me that had changed.

So if a person did not feel the drawing power to get saved then there is a possibility they were not saved. And this would be Satan's deception upon them making them think they are saved but yet living a lie. So when I read testimonies of x-Christians where they tell the story that they supposedly got saved because the rest of the family was. Then what they did was not true so what was expected (having a relationship with God) would never have happened.

Because Christ lives within our hearts, our hearts have to be truly in it and we have to mean what is said when we say it. So to go forward to accept Christ with no drawing power and to speak words that basically have no meaning because you were not really serious means you more than likely are not truly saved. The reason I do not commit totally to saying someone is not truly saved is because only God can determine this for sure.

But if you feel as if you are praying to no one. And your prayers seem to have no meaning and they are never answered. And you feel spiritually alone all the time. This is an indication that something is wrong. Because if you do not have Christ as your savior to be the mediator for you so that your prayers are heard. then your prayers are falling upon death ears as to the reason they are never answered. And you feel spiritually alone because spiritually there is no one there,

Getting saved is also like getting married. If your heart is not in it and you just go through the motions, then it's not real and it won't last. You see Christ will not enter into a covenant relationship unless your heart is truly in it. So all the words in the world mean nothing when spoken to get saved if they did not come from your heart.

But on the other end, if you are spiritually aware of God, your prayers get answered, and you can feel that you are praying to someone. Then you are saved.

So if what I have said here brings conviction into your life it's because of one of two things.

1) You need to get right with God to be on better terms with God (saved but God is silent because you do not try to live a Christ like life).
2) You really need to seek out whether you were saved or not.

I have had several people confess to me that they were not really saved when they thought that they were for years. Excellent post.

#4 MamaElephant

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 06:28 PM

I submit that before we pray, we should find out what prayers God will not answer.

Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss,-- James 4:3

#5 ikester7579

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 02:15 AM

Ikester,

Do you interpret this passage to mean that those who go to Hell are there because the Father did not "draw them"? If so, what do you do with John 12:32?


Is it speaking of salvation or judgement? Now since in context: 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

It is judgment. So it does not contradict the other verse.


If the drawing power was "uncontrollable" to accept Jesus, does this mean that you were drawn against your will to reject Him?


When did I reject Him?

Are there people who God is not drawing? I think not. Now I will admit that the Holy Spirit can back off if we continually ignore Him or reject Him. It's God's will that "all" will be saved. This is one example where "all" really means all. God created and uses language such that words have a range of meaning, and frequently we seriously err if we exaggerate or misconstrue the text simply by taking the words literally or interpreting them solely by their immediate context. Sometimes definitions of words sufficiently convey the meaning of a statement: "David slew Galiath" for example. At other times, the meaning comes through the immediate context of the chapter. Sometimes the entire context of the book is needed to properly understand the phrase. And at other times, the meaning comes through knowing the true nature of God, and the overall message of the entire Bible: "I said, 'You are gods,'" (John 10:34). Thus if we take Christ's words literally, we would exaggerate His point and reinforce a Mormon-like polytheism.


Romans1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

The reprobates cannot be drawn because it's a curse that not only makes them dumb to truth and lies but also right from wrong.

The word "all" is frequently used as a figure of speech, and when related to God, it is rightly interpreted as literal meaning (without exception) or figurative (most, many or some) based on God;s actual nature. In the context of our "adoption as sons," Paul writes that believers are "predestined according to the purpose of Him who works "all" things according to the counsel of His will (Eph. 1:11). Yet he also writes that "God... desires all men to be saved" (1 Tim. 2:3-4). If God works "all" things and desires salvation for "all" then one of these ALLs must not be literal, but is used as a figure of speech, meaning many. So we must start by looking at the widest possible context, that is, the nature of God Himself to see the open and closed theists differ.


And when you looked up all these verses you came up with here, did you also look for any contradicting verses as well? I doubt that you did. Because there are verses that contradict what you use those verses for. But I also find that osas believers only see one side of the word while ignoring everything else.


Ikester, before I respond to this paragraph, some questions:

Do you believe that we can lose our salvation? Or is it assured?


That's a loaded question because as MamaElephant will tell you I'm somewhat of an expert on this. So if you want to open a huge can of worms and have your faith in osas challenged you might want to start another thread because I can tell you this subject will derail this one. But I also must warn you I have a bunch of stuff archived on this subject that is 20 times more information then you could ever post in support of osas (once saved always saved). No ones been able to prove me wrong but you can try,

Now why did I say all that? Because the subject deals with salvation right? And I once believed as you do. And everywhere I saw this subject being debated both sides had good arguments. So when I tried to prove either side by myself I would end up being pulled in both directions. So out of total frustration in wanting to know what they truth was on the issue I prayed for guidance and was very sincere of what I wanted so I really was praying from the heart more than anything else. And after 5 long years of tests and truths being revealed I made a decision. And was given more information on the subject then I could have ever done on my own. MamaElephant will tell you it's quite convincing.

If only God can determine if we are saved, then how can we be saved by faith in him?


Okay if you walk up to someone you don;t even know can you tell me if they are saved?
If you observe them for a day can you absolutely tell me they are saved?
If they tell you they are saved does that mean they are saved?
So who determines this for sure, you or God?

I submit that before we pray, we should find out what prayers God will not answer. I have known couples where the wife is pregnant and they pray to have a little girl or a little boy--as if God is in the s@x change business. Paul found out that Jesus' "grace was sufficient." Our faith in Jesus to save us through His sacrifice should never be based on what we see (miracles), for "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10:17). I do agree that unless we have accepted Jesus as our Lord, we pray in vain, "for no one comes to the Father except through Jesus."


Using scripture can you say for sure that God would not give them the boy or girl that they want? If you cannot it becomes a matter of opinion more than fact. To counsel and say for sure that you know and cannot back that up with the word is making your own doctrine. We may not think God will do something because it does not seem reasonable but then again being reasonable as we would determine it is not always God's way. Because if a couple needs a boy to be able to do a man's work on the farm etc... So that the family can survive why would not God give that to them? God says He will meet our needs, right?

I so agree. Many people accept Jesus for the wrong reasons. Many ministries today preach that if you accept Jesus, your marriage will be healed, your ingrown toe nails will magically disappear, and you will be financially blessed, etc.. All of these, are the wrong reasons for accepting Jesus as our Savior. Jesus died to save sinners and if we accept Him for any other reason we are accepting Him for the wrong reason. When tribulation comes, these tiypes of superficial converts abandon Christianity.


Like the house built on the sand and the house built on the rock. These have a house built on the sand and at the first storm will have it's foundation washed away.

Evidence that we are saved is our"trust" in what He has promised in His word. If we are trusting in God by what we see with our eyes, then no faith is required. And God says that without faith it is impossible to please God.

TeeJay


As to the reason God just does not show Himself to us. Absolute evidence that He is requires an absolute faith that has not doubt, Because once seen with our eyes there would be no excuse for not believing. So our judgment also becomes absolute which would condemn us. So God does not show Himself so that our faith does not have to be absolute and we have some leeway for our imperfections.

#6 ikester7579

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 02:17 AM

Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss,-- James 4:3


Yes, God fulfills our needs not our greeds.

#7 Teejay

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 05:33 PM

Ikester,

It will be a few days before I can answer your post in detail. I on a mission to witness to a frien's son who has become an atheist. But I simply asked if you believed OSAS or not. I can't address your position unless I know what it is. Right?

TeeJay

#8 ikester7579

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 06:01 PM

Ikester,

It will be a few days before I can answer your post in detail. I on a mission to witness to a frien's son who has become an atheist. But I simply asked if you believed OSAS or not. I can't address your position unless I know what it is. Right?

TeeJay


I do believe you can lose salvation. So you will have to start another thread if you want to debate this.

#9 MamaElephant

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 06:28 PM

I do believe you can lose salvation. So you will have to start another thread if you want to debate this.


Can I please request that I try to answer first? Because I only have a few verses that I am questioning (my pastors teach OSAS) and you will have a plethora.

#10 ikester7579

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 07:43 PM

Can I please request that I try to answer first? Because I only have a few verses that I am questioning (my pastors teach OSAS) and you will have a plethora.


Sure or you can pm me. But osas is popular in most denominations so I expected that. And osas preachers put up a good argument but will ignore other verses in favor of their own. You don;t get correct doctrine when you ignore one part to make another part sound true,

Now is there a situation where your salvation can be considered like osas? Of course. But that is only when your foundation is so strong nothing can shake it. Most of us have something that would shake our belief so most of us are not at that level. I don;t know of anything including death of loved ones that would shake mine. So I maybe there and just don;t realize it. But when you are not there always that little danger. As to the reason your foundation has to be built on solid ground (true doctrine) that meshes with every part of the Bible. That way there is no doubt when it's built as to what you believe because it fits with everything that is written.

Total osas is wrong.
Total no osas is wrong.

Total osas is a covenant of bondage. Christ came to set the captives free not move them from one bondage unto another.

Our determination of if we can lose salvation is solely based on our foundation. This is why we have to be careful on what we build it with. this is why there's that parable of the seed planter. he throws seed into a rocky area and the root take but get burned by the sun. He throws seeds onto good soil and they take root grow like they should. The rocks and good soil are a representation of what we allow our foundation to be built with. The seed planter can be a person in a shepherd position or the word itself.

The parable of the house built on the rock and one on the sand and one gets washed away (the one on sand) at the first storm is the same type of example. The house is a representation of your faith. the rock and sand is it's foundation.

The rocky place is a representation of a foundation that's not built in God's truth to the point it cannot be questioned. But instead it's built in conflict which causes debate and doubt. So the foundation is always in turmoil and conflict, A weak foundation like that has to be torn down and redone. Like the potter (Jesus) breaking the old mold so that He can reform you to do His will. But we first have to be willing before that can happen.

Anyway, since it looks like we will be starting a new thread on this you can debate it there. It's not just between me and Teejay. Anyone can post in there, I'm used to having as much as ten people debate me on this at one time on other forums. So I am well seasoned to do this. If I posted everything I had on this subject that proves osas wrong to the degree most believe it. it would take quite sometime to read it. I rarely have to go that far.

#11 Teejay

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 07:14 AM

[quote] name='ikester7579' timestamp='1330736464' post='81067']
I do believe you can lose salvation. So you will have to start another thread if you want to debate this.
[/quote]
[quote] name='ikester7579' timestamp='1330736464' post='81067']
I do believe you can lose salvation. So you will have to start another thread if you want to debate this.
[/quote]

Ikester,

The topic is "Are You Truly Saved - How can you tell....? Why in the world would you restrict me from discussing OSAS? This is very germane to the topic--unless I'm missing something? I'll be glad to dialogue with you if you change your mind. But you're the boss.

TeeJay

#12 MamaElephant

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 07:36 AM

Titus 3:4-6 but But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Saved us. Yes. Saved us from what?

3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

So if you are saved you are changed.

#13 ikester7579

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:38 PM

Ikester,

The topic is "Are You Truly Saved - How can you tell....? Why in the world would you restrict me from discussing OSAS? This is very germane to the topic--unless I'm missing something? I'll be glad to dialogue with you if you change your mind. But you're the boss.

TeeJay


Where did I say I restrict you? I started that thread for you because you wanted to debate it. Man everybody seems to be misunderstanding me these days.

#14 MamaElephant

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:53 PM

Where did I say I restrict you? I started that thread for you because you wanted to debate it. Man everybody seems to be misunderstanding me these days.

It seems to definitely be a misunderstanding. I think Teejay has trouble with navigating internet forums.

Teejay, I would love to see your responses to the OSAS debate at this link.

#15 ikester7579

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 01:20 PM

I believe this discussion needs to be in the osas thread I started just for this conversation.

http://www.evolution...l=&fromsearch=1

#16 ikester7579

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 08:22 PM

Teejay, I am moving your post to the other thread so I can respond to it there.




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