12 replies to this topic

[Gott allein zur Ehre]

I ask for your prayers that the Lord provide me with the wisdom and confidence in this. I've been spending the last few weeks reading up on CMI's articles (ever since hearing about them from the Superconference 2012 thread), and I feel that now would be a good time to start applying what I've read. Lord knows I've spent several afternoons and/or nights going through several dozen of their articles and/or discussions gobbling up all this information with a certain.... God forbid, gluttony?

I decided to start "soft" on myself, with a Theistic Evolutionist friend of mine from way back. We've agreed to something of a correspondence debate via Facebook. To the best of my knowledge, he's recently finished a degree in theology (I think) and is from an Anglican subset that focuses on reasoning, or... well I can't remember the exact details (will have to look that up later on). I'm concerned for him, mainly because he's a friend, and because I know that Compromising is the first step down a slippery slope (as in the case of Charles Templeton).

Quoting his stand:

Personally, I find evolution a masterful and elegant theory that explains very well how life came to be as it is right now.
I don't find it and God mutually exclusive
but evolution is pretty wonderful
Really, the only difficulty evolution has is origins, specifically three things:
1)How did life originate in the first place?
2)How did it come to reproduce?
3)Where did DNA come from?
The questions are in increasing order of difficulty for evolution.

(Emphasis added by me)

That one line... it... unnerves and shakes me. I don't know why, but it sent chills up my spine when I read it.

In retrospect, this will prove to be a challenge, given his specific degree, and, well, I don't even have any kind of degree at all to speak of. Even the Apostle Paul was a very well-studied man, one of the top young Pharisees at the time and such. Not to say that the other Apostles didn't do their share, but I suppose, to be honest, I'm... just real nervous about this decision.

I know that the Holy Spirit will provide me with the strength and wisdom if I pray. And I believe that the Holy Spirit is convicting me to seek advice from people who already have experience with apologeticising(sp?). It only makes sense. After all, early believers studied for two whole years in the school of Tyrannus under the Apostle Paul before going out into the world. Wisdom from the Holy Spirit through the advice of brethren who have trodden down this path before me couldn't hurt at all. Could it?

So, all these taken into account, how can I approach him, exactly? How do I help the Holy Spirit bring a lost and confused Theistic Evolutionist to the glorious truth of Creation? He believes there is no conflict between God and Evolution, but we all know this is, to put it bluntly, just silly. Even Richard Dawkins pokes fun at compromisers for not getting this fact.

As I stated when I first joined this site, I've been scarred by previous failed attempts at apologetics that flew badly in my face. So this is very much an emotional issue to me. Also, I apologise if this post seems kinda disjointed. It's past 11PM where I live.

Bless you all, and praise the Lord!

[JayShel]

I ask for your prayers that the Lord provide me with the wisdom and confidence in this. I've been spending the last few weeks reading up on CMI's articles (ever since hearing about them from the Superconference 2012 thread), and I feel that now would be a good time to start applying what I've read. Lord knows I've spent several afternoons and/or nights going through several dozen of their articles and/or discussions gobbling up all this information with a certain.... God forbid, gluttony?

I decided to start "soft" on myself, with a Theistic Evolutionist friend of mine from way back. We've agreed to something of a correspondence debate via Facebook. To the best of my knowledge, he's recently finished a degree in theology (I think) and is from an Anglican subset that focuses on reasoning, or... well I can't remember the exact details (will have to look that up later on). I'm concerned for him, mainly because he's a friend, and because I know that Compromising is the first step down a slippery slope (as in the case of Charles Templeton).

Quoting his stand:


(Emphasis added by me)

That one line... it... unnerves and shakes me. I don't know why, but it sent chills up my spine when I read it.

In retrospect, this will prove to be a challenge, given his specific degree, and, well, I don't even have any kind of degree at all to speak of. Even the Apostle Paul was a very well-studied man, one of the top young Pharisees at the time and such. Not to say that the other Apostles didn't do their share, but I suppose, to be honest, I'm... just real nervous about this decision.

I know that the Holy Spirit will provide me with the strength and wisdom if I pray. And I believe that the Holy Spirit is convicting me to seek advice from people who already have experience with apologeticising(sp?). It only makes sense. After all, early believers studied for two whole years in the school of Tyrannus under the Apostle Paul before going out into the world. Wisdom from the Holy Spirit through the advice of brethren who have trodden down this path before me couldn't hurt at all. Could it?

So, all these taken into account, how can I approach him, exactly? How do I help the Holy Spirit bring a lost and confused Theistic Evolutionist to the glorious truth of Creation? He believes there is no conflict between God and Evolution, but we all know this is, to put it bluntly, just silly. Even Richard Dawkins pokes fun at compromisers for not getting this fact.

As I stated when I first joined this site, I've been scarred by previous failed attempts at apologetics that flew badly in my face. So this is very much an emotional issue to me. Also, I apologise if this post seems kinda disjointed. It's past 11PM where I live.

Bless you all, and praise the Lord!

Well I believe the reason "evolution is pretty wonderful" sends chills up your spine is because it is a death filled trial by error process. If this is the way a loving God works, then I really don't understand and He will have to explain it to me. The idea is a bit disturbing. Further, if there is any glory in any natural process, God should receive the praise for it. Instead his wording seems to be glorifying evolution.

I have a few points for you to ponder:

• Pray first, and allow the Holy Spirit to work through you. I would say you should pray more than you type.
• Don't expect massive change to happen over night, plant seeds and pray that God waters them this means:
• Try to keep it short and sweet. Give him one or two things to ponder about (maybe not overtly YEC but thought provoking such as Surtsey Island breaking all kinds of paradigms about formation time of complex geographical features). If you throw the book at him he might get more defensive.
• Have other conversations/find common ground on other issues or other issues to keep your friendship healthy. If he feels that you are just pushing an agenda or that your concern is there but misguided, he might push you away. Its kind of a self-preservation reflex. He needs to know not just that you are concerned for him, but that there is quality in what you say, not just quantity.
• Know that if he keeps responding back in like kind, he may not be willing to change his mind. That does not mean he is not saved, but your time might be better spent elsewhere, disengage from the debate so he stops feeling like he has to defend his worldview. Keep praying for him and you might want to just send things that are thought provoking his way once and awhile.
• The best way to learn how to evangelize is through yours and other people's mistakes. I don't think any one of us got it perfect the first time. My first time was when I was drinking with my friends (really bad idea by the way). We are purified by being put through the fire.

[agnophilo123]

If evolution is horrible because it involves death isn't life horrible because it involves death? Death, disease etc are parts of the world whether we like them or not.

And (if it helps) I think people feel evolution is wonderful because it doesn't just explain life, but it gives us a sense of being connected to literally everything on the planet. A tree is a very, very, very distant cousin of yours. That is an astonishing realization. And the feeling of being connected to nature rather than separate from it that those kinds of thoughts bring about is beautiful just as the idea of being connected to god I'm sure is a beautiful concept to you (and him).

There is a reason that when you search "greatest sermon ever" on youtube the number one hit is an atheist talking about how astrophysics makes him feel. It's because many things we discover about science increase our feeling of being connected to the universe itself, rather than seeing the universe the way we look at a disposable cup as some piece of trash to be discarded on judgement day.

This is the video if you want to see it (it's not hostile to religion at all).

[Salsa]

If evolution is horrible because it involves death isn't life horrible because it involves death?

Life doesn't involve death. Sin involves death.

Life is that absence of death and the fact that life as we know it today terminates does not mean that death is a "part" of life.

[Salsa]

And (if it helps) I think people feel evolution is wonderful because it doesn't just explain life, but it gives us a sense of being connected to literally everything on the planet

And how exactly does that "help" anyone???

Death is CEASING to be connected to everything on the planet!

[gilbo12345]

I ask for your prayers that the Lord provide me with the wisdom and confidence in this. I've been spending the last few weeks reading up on CMI's articles (ever since hearing about them from the Superconference 2012 thread), and I feel that now would be a good time to start applying what I've read. Lord knows I've spent several afternoons and/or nights going through several dozen of their articles and/or discussions gobbling up all this information with a certain.... God forbid, gluttony?

I decided to start "soft" on myself, with a Theistic Evolutionist friend of mine from way back. We've agreed to something of a correspondence debate via Facebook. To the best of my knowledge, he's recently finished a degree in theology (I think) and is from an Anglican subset that focuses on reasoning, or... well I can't remember the exact details (will have to look that up later on). I'm concerned for him, mainly because he's a friend, and because I know that Compromising is the first step down a slippery slope (as in the case of Charles Templeton).

Quoting his stand:


(Emphasis added by me)

1. In retrospect, this will prove to be a challenge, given his specific degree, and, well, I don't even have any kind of degree at all to speak of. Even the Apostle Paul was a very well-studied man, one of the top young Pharisees at the time and such. Not to say that the other Apostles didn't do their share, but I suppose, to be honest, I'm... just real nervous about this decision.

2. I know that the Holy Spirit will provide me with the strength and wisdom if I pray. And I believe that the Holy Spirit is convicting me to seek advice from people who already have experience with apologeticising(sp?). It only makes sense. After all, early believers studied for two whole years in the school of Tyrannus under the Apostle Paul before going out into the world. Wisdom from the Holy Spirit through the advice of brethren who have trodden down this path before me couldn't hurt at all. Could it?

3. So, all these taken into account, how can I approach him, exactly? How do I help the Holy Spirit bring a lost and confused Theistic Evolutionist to the glorious truth of Creation? He believes there is no conflict between God and Evolution, but we all know this is, to put it bluntly, just silly. Even Richard Dawkins pokes fun at compromisers for not getting this fact.

4. As I stated when I first joined this site, I've been scarred by previous failed attempts at apologetics that flew badly in my face. So this is very much an emotional issue to me. Also, I apologise if this post seems kinda disjointed. It's past 11PM where I live.

Bless you all, and praise the Lord!

1. You shouldn't worry. Firstly degrees aren't the arbiters of truth. A humble lecturer at my uni made the claim that Phd can also stand for "Pot hole digger" Secondly when examined critically evolution is undone by the laws and logicalities of nature itself, in regard to the questions you claimed your friend posed.

2. Praying helps certainly, so does some research on the issue

3. I have little experience with evangelism however I'd take these steps

- demonstrate how evolution is inconsistent with the Bible, (no adam and eve > no original sin > no need for redemption > no Jesus)
- demonstrate how evolution is inconsistent with nature itself
- demonstrate the historical evidence for the Bible

if you are well versed in the science you can ask him for his evidence and then proceed to debunk it, if your friend has no cause for belief in evolution then why believe it?

4. No worries, we've all had bad experiences when we first start up. Mine was when I'd been having an online discussion with much of my peers on the university online forum, they were anable to prove evolution beyond small changes. One of my lecturers spent half of the last tutorial going on about the "evidence of evolution" which was actually just ripping on Religion. I had some counter points for him, and he got me to stand in front of the class, I have / had stagefright so was stuttering and was all over the place. One of my points DNA being "left handed" and how chirality defies the natural formation of DNA, he stated I was wrong (I was right), but with no evidence there and then I was unable to prove it, (hence why I like online stuff).

[Teejay]

I ask for your prayers that the Lord provide me with the wisdom and confidence in this. I've been spending the last few weeks reading up on CMI's articles (ever since hearing about them from the Superconference 2012 thread), and I feel that now would be a good time to start applying what I've read. Lord knows I've spent several afternoons and/or nights going through several dozen of their articles and/or discussions gobbling up all this information with a certain.... God forbid, gluttony?

I decided to start "soft" on myself, with a Theistic Evolutionist friend of mine from way back. We've agreed to something of a correspondence debate via Facebook. To the best of my knowledge, he's recently finished a degree in theology (I think) and is from an Anglican subset that focuses on reasoning, or... well I can't remember the exact details (will have to look that up later on). I'm concerned for him, mainly because he's a friend, and because I know that Compromising is the first step down a slippery slope (as in the case of Charles Templeton).

Quoting his stand:

(Emphasis added by me)

That one line... it... unnerves and shakes me. I don't know why, but it sent chills up my spine when I read it.

In retrospect, this will prove to be a challenge, given his specific degree, and, well, I don't even have any kind of degree at all to speak of. Even the Apostle Paul was a very well-studied man, one of the top young Pharisees at the time and such. Not to say that the other Apostles didn't do their share, but I suppose, to be honest, I'm... just real nervous about this decision.

I know that the Holy Spirit will provide me with the strength and wisdom if I pray. And I believe that the Holy Spirit is convicting me to seek advice from people who already have experience with apologeticising(sp?). It only makes sense. After all, early believers studied for two whole years in the school of Tyrannus under the Apostle Paul before going out into the world. Wisdom from the Holy Spirit through the advice of brethren who have trodden down this path before me couldn't hurt at all. Could it?

So, all these taken into account, how can I approach him, exactly? How do I help the Holy Spirit bring a lost and confused Theistic Evolutionist to the glorious truth of Creation? He believes there is no conflict between God and Evolution, but we all know this is, to put it bluntly, just silly. Even Richard Dawkins pokes fun at compromisers for not getting this fact.

As I stated when I first joined this site, I've been scarred by previous failed attempts at apologetics that flew badly in my face. So this is very much an emotional issue to me. Also, I apologise if this post seems kinda disjointed. It's past 11PM where I live.

Bless you all, and praise the Lord!

Was ist los?

I would suggest that you find out where he stands.  Does he believe in the Gap Theory, Theistic Evolution, Day-Age Theory, Progressive Creation, Framework Hypothesis?  Then ask him what passages (exactly) in the Bible does deem symbolic or metaphoric and what passages are literal.  Otherwise, I find that theistic evolutionists are hard to pin down.  For example, he may argue that all of Genesis is metaphoric and not literal. Then you can point out to him that he has no justification to believe that the physical laws will remain constant because in Genesis 8:22, God promises us uniformity in nature.  If he chooses to dig in and argue that all of Genesis is metaphoric, then he does not have a foundation to stand on for uniformity of nature.  If he chooses to read Genesis 8:22 as literal, then he refutes his original position.

Use AIG for research.  Use the Bible (God's word) as your foundation.  For example, Jesus said, "In the beginning God made them male and female..."  Jesus here is affirming Genesis as literal.

All theistic evolutionists must disbelieve in a worldwide flood.  All floods for them are local.  But then I ask them since we have fossils on all the mountains of the world, what contained the local flood water to make it rise above the mountain tops?  

In the Bible the word yom (ordinary day) is used to mean an ordinary day about 2500 times.  Why is it only in Genesis that a yom is not an ordinary 24-hour yom?

When God creates a new heaven and a new earth, is He going to take billions of years?

When God gives the Ten Commandments and mentions the Sabbath, He reaffirms that He created all that exists in six literal days and rested on the seventh literal day.

 

TeeJay

[Teejay]

If evolution is horrible because it involves death isn't life horrible because it involves death? Death, disease etc are parts of the world whether we like them or not.

And (if it helps) I think people feel evolution is wonderful because it doesn't just explain life, but it gives us a sense of being connected to literally everything on the planet. A tree is a very, very, very distant cousin of yours. That is an astonishing realization. And the feeling of being connected to nature rather than separate from it that those kinds of thoughts bring about is beautiful just as the idea of being connected to god I'm sure is a beautiful concept to you (and him).

There is a reason that when you search "greatest sermon ever" on youtube the number one hit is an atheist talking about how astrophysics makes him feel. It's because many things we discover about science increase our feeling of being connected to the universe itself, rather than seeing the universe the way we look at a disposable cup as some piece of trash to be discarded on judgement day.

This is the video if you want to see it (it's not hostile to religion at all).

Hello all,

Stars do not form.  No one has ever seen a star form.  What's here is here.  He is a confused man who will spend an eternity apart from God where there are no stars or telescopes--or air conditioning.

He does not come from star dust; he comes from Adam who came from the dust of the earth--and back to the dust he shall return.

He does not think with his brain.  Reasoning is not physical and not part of the physical universe.  If thinking was the motion of chemicals in the brain, then any conclusion would be the result of cause and effect (one chemical reacting to another and so on) and he  could not know that anything was true, not even that his brain was composed of chemicals.  Truth is not the result of cause and effect chemical reactions; it is the result of reasoning propositionally:

If P then Q.
P
Therefore Q

Reasoning propositionally is not done in the mind (which is not physical.

This poor man was not aware that he was using laws of logic and reasoning (both non-physical and not part of the physical universe to argue that nothing but the physical exists.  
 

 

TeeJay

[rosewhite]

I regularly pint out to evolutionists that the stars were lit up and sent on their way by God - and that brings scorn and derision down on my head.

I also tell them that the starlight we see is not coming to us but is what trailed behind the stars when God lit them and sent them on their ways - that really gets the pondslimers angry as they just cannot comprehend the logic behind my reasoning and hey usually state that stars are billions of years old and their light has taken billions of years to get to us.

 

They also confuse their own measure of light-years and say light travels a certain distance in a year and therefore the star must be that age but No! they snarl, light doesn't work like that!

[gilbo12345]

I regularly pint out to evolutionists that the stars were lit up and sent on their way by God - and that brings scorn and derision down on my head.

I also tell them that the starlight we see is not coming to us but is what trailed behind the stars when God lit them and sent them on their ways - that really gets the pondslimers angry as they just cannot comprehend the logic behind my reasoning and hey usually state that stars are billions of years old and their light has taken billions of years to get to us.

 

They also confuse their own measure of light-years and say light travels a certain distance in a year and therefore the star must be that age but No! they snarl, light doesn't work like that!

 

You could tell them that nobody really knows how light "works" since its both a particle and a wave at the same time

[rico]

A pastor made a joke that I thought was funny, he said something like:what seperates a genious from a non-genious was the hair.

[Schera Do]

 

You could tell them that nobody really knows how light "works" since its both a particle and a wave at the same time

 

...And there's that Gravity thing too.

[Schera Do]

Hello all, ...

He does not think with his brain. ...

TeeJay

.
I'm am so glad that I returned to this thread!

I'm going to make the bold assumption that if the man who is the 'he' above does not require his brain to think, then nor do I.

I'll let you all know how I do with that. (I've set myself up for an attack here...)