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#1 Dave

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 05:51 PM

Dear brothers in Christ,

I just came across this post on the Evo board of a site hosted by a Christian. The owner does not have the same commitment to weeding out equivocation and blasphemy like our host does here. Unfortunately, below is testimony of how years of battering by Satan can wear down even the faithful.

This is profoundly sad. Let it be a lesson.

After being on these boards for quite a while and through some RL events I have come to the conclusion that the case for creationism has no posible way to scientifically stand and that ToE is the only scientific explanation to explain the diversity of life.

This means to me that I am now an agnostic as to creo/evo. Many questions remain not answered for me to embrace ToE to be the methid God used to create, yet likewise the reality disagrees with the literal teaching of Genesis.

I most likely will lurk these boards but rarely will I post anymore. I am saddened with how the most vocal creos on this board often behave, it does not help your cause and I do not believe it is the attitude Jesus would have had to make his point.

May God bless you all


As of this writing, in four days time there have been 148 replies to this man's confession of his crisis of faith. The atheists, theistic evolutionists and Christians confused about the Bible congratulated this poor soul on his "honesty," and admonished the remaining true YECers there to "see the light" like he did. They welcomed him into to the fold.

Sadly, this sparked a rancourous argument between some of the Biblically faithful Christians there and the others about the state of our backslider's walk with the Lord. This debate certainly was not a positive witness for the Christian faith.

Our poster has apparently been faithfully arguing creation in the poisonous atmosphere of that board for years, and managed to do it while earnng the respect of even the atheists there. No small accomplishments. But, probably because of some unmentioned crisis in his personal life, he has fallen into a crisis of faith concerning God's word in the Bible.

One can only hope and pray that the Holy Spirit will help lead this man out of his bad decision.

I'd like to make sure that I personally thank Fred Williams for running this board in such a way that it is unlikely this kind of thing can happen here. Also, I'd like to remind fellow believers here (as Fred does in his introduction) that the battle isn't against men and their beliefs, it's against principalities of darkness. Remain strong in your faith, strong in your beliefs. Be in the word daily, and check your thoughts with the Holy Spirit. He won't lead you wrong.

Blessings to all, especially to our confused poster quoted above.

Dave

#2 Fred Williams

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 02:01 PM

Hi Dave,

That is discouraging. Thanks for sharing this information, it really shows why this battle we are in is so important.

Fred

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 02:52 AM

Hi Dave,

That is sad, and as Fred has mentioned before, our debate here may be a waste of time with unbelievers, but its can really be a benefit to believers who are struggling with "science" and the Bible.

Maybe you can invite him here for rehab...

Terry

#4 ikester7579

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 03:53 AM

Dear brothers in Christ,

I just came across this post on the Evo board of a site hosted by a Christian. The owner does not have the same commitment to weeding out equivocation and blasphemy like our host does here. Unfortunately, below is testimony of how years of battering by Satan can wear down even the faithful.

This is profoundly sad. Let it be a lesson.
As of this writing, in four days time there have been 148 replies to this man's confession of his crisis of faith. The atheists, theistic evolutionists and Christians confused about the Bible congratulated this poor soul on his "honesty," and admonished the remaining true YECers there to "see the light" like he did. They welcomed him into to the fold.

Sadly, this sparked a rancourous argument between some of the Biblically faithful Christians there and the others about the state of our backslider's walk with the Lord. This debate certainly was not a positive witness for the Christian faith.

Our poster has apparently been faithfully arguing creation in the poisonous atmosphere of that board for years, and managed to do it while earnng the respect of even the atheists there. No small accomplishments. But, probably because of some unmentioned crisis in his personal life, he has fallen into a crisis of faith concerning God's word in the Bible.

One can only hope and pray that the Holy Spirit will help lead this man out of his bad decision.

I'd like to make sure that I personally thank Fred Williams for running this board in such a way that it is unlikely this kind of thing can happen here. Also, I'd like to remind fellow believers here (as Fred does in his introduction) that the battle isn't against men and their beliefs, it's against principalities of darkness. Remain strong in your faith, strong in your beliefs. Be in the word daily, and check your thoughts with the Holy Spirit. He won't lead you wrong.

Blessings to all, especially to our confused poster quoted above.

Dave

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Dave, this happens on an everyday bases. You are now wittnessing why evolution is a religion. For you cannot lose faith in one thing that is religion, to something that is not.

Also, this is something that is done to discurage believers by non-believers. Don't believe it everytime you see it. Here is an example from another forum:

My official renunciation of YECism, and further inquiry into science and religion


Before the official renunciation...I will pause to ponder where I came from, and my journey out of YECism.

I first began my journey at about age 13, when I first began to doubt. But due to my sheltered environment, I was not able to seriously explore my doubts until I came to Christian Forums in this very forum, to debate the issue. Before I came here, I was a staunch believer in a literal Creation that happened approximately 6,000 years ago, and that all Christians believed this (since anyone who didn’t wasn’t a true Christian). I thought that Adam and Eve were literal, that we were all descendents of them, and that, most importantly, scientific evidence supported all this.

Although I had doubted since the age of 13, I was hostile to many of you here who were not YECists, thinking that you were mistaken. I marvel now at my hypocrisy, since I had long been suspicious and skeptical of the pamphlets, tracts, and church literature I was reading that “proved” Creation and “disproved” evolution. I believed some of the literature, but most of it, I thought, did not compare to the scientific literature from educational institutions.

What I really thought at the time was that the “truth” of YECism was buried deep under the laws of science, and that only YECists were on the right track. I thought that all the evolutionists were letting themselves be blinded by their awe for Charles Darwin. Don’t look at me like that! At least I didn’t believe in the great conspiracy that all evolutionists were deceived of the devil!

For several years before I came to CF in a serious attempt to end my doubts and “prove” you all wrong, or myself wrong, I was seriously suspicious that I was wrong, and that the rest of the world was laughing. And indeed they were! One day I came out of the cave I had been in, and I saw them standing around the cave, pointing and laughing and mocking. At first some of you were there in the crowd.

When I came to CF, I thought that it was you, and not I, who would have to change beliefs. But you all presented me with overwhelming scientific evidence that surpassed in quality and quantity anything I had before read by Creationists. I was not accustomed to such intellectual integrity, consistency, logic, and proof—proof that came not from someone’s reasoning or wishes, but from calculations, lab experiments, and testing.

Here are the past threads (in no specific order) that I have started here:

There were several links here. But I omit them.


And now, for the renunciation.

I, *******, having been a YECist for all my life until the summer of 2004 at the age of 19 (shameful it took so long), do hereby, officially and forever, renounce my belief in the literal creation of a planet, solar system, people, and universe several thousand years ago.

The causes of this dramatic change are due to vigorous debate with evolutionists, atheists, agnostics, liberal Christians, and conservative gap-theory and other Christians; in-depth reading on topics such as Geology, Astronomy, and a few other sciences, which convinced me over the span of about 4 months, that a literal earth created about 6,000 years ago, was not scientifically possible; extensive and deep thought about the issues and materials I had read; and a willingness to be open-minded and not dismiss the truths that I was now so thoroughly and “dangerously” exposed to.

Through all this my mind was convinced that YECism is untrue, and was invented out of a desire of deeply religious people to validate a faith structure that would simply be too painful for them to leave.

End of renunciation.

The ramifications of this renunciation have been profound. When I gave up Biblical literalism, my intellectual bonds broke. I felt as though I had been released from a harbor and had drifted out to sea. The sea was adventurous, and held many possibilities. But it was also uncertain, unlike the safe harbor.

So I drifted to many small islands and found other harbors. Some of them are very safe, being made of steel instead of rotting wood. My ship never did fit at that old harbor anyway.

My new intellectual journey thus began. And since then I have come to see the world from a more agnostic-Christian point of view, if that is possible.

Many of you claim that evolution does not equal atheism, and I agree. The two are not directly related. However, the belief in evolution might lead to atheism in some cases. Ever since the Origin of Species, we humans have realized that the idea of a loving God who is directly involved in our existence and lives is not true, because species are not fixed, but evolve by a random, natural process of natural selection. This places God further away, not being directly involved in our creation or direction. Now God is a mysterious, distant, and uninvolved deity.

If God didn’t create us directly as Genesis indicates, is there any reason to believe that He is as directly involved with our lives as the rest of the Bible claims? If he allowed species to evolve painfully through survival and extinction, what does that say for us?

I have read that Genesis is not literal, but that certain other parts of the Bible are. This presents contradicting reasoning that is unacceptable. However, if someone creates a thread on it, I will become involved in the debate.

The unleashing of my intellectual curiosity has caused me to strongly desire another safe harbor in which to rest. I have not yet found that harbor. Perhaps there is no safe harbor. None of the great philosophers ever found one. Perhaps safe harbors are a delusion. Steel eventually gives way to erosion, and wood to rot.

In the book I am reading, there is a quote that goes something like this:
Is religion a projection of human fears and desires, or is it an expression of some innate knowing or connection with a deity? In other words, did we make God, or did He make us? Or neither?

P.S. ******* may now add me to his list (if he remembers what I am talking about...)
__________________
Young Earth Creationists rely on the falsification of dating
methods to validate their literalist claims and their faith


Does this look like just a post, or a well thought out plan to discurage any believer who read it? If this is true, then they were put up to this post by the same evolutionist-atheist who convinced them the bible is a bunch of lies.

Did you know that evolutionists and atheist actually celebrate, and keep score of how many people they can get to renounce their faith? I have actually seen them do this on their own forums. Boast about how many they have led astray, compared to someone else. Christians don't realize this is not a game we play.

And this is the very reason Fred runs the forum the way he does.

#5 Dave

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 07:44 AM

Also, this is something that is done to discourage believers by non-believers. Don't believe it everytime you see it. Here is an example from another forum:

View Post


Ikester,

I know what you mean about the chance that this person was someone put up by the evos to discourage creationists. However, I do believe in this case our man is truly a brother. He had stated quite unambiguously in an earlier post that he believes in the 6-day creation. I think he's just undergoing a crisis. He needs our prayers is all.

I think your suggestion to invite him over to here is a good one. I'll do it.

Dave

#6 Dave

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 07:52 AM

I think your suggestion to invite him over to here is a good one. I'll do it.

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Oops. I can't. I need at least 15 posts on that board to have PM privileges. Right now, my post count stands at zero. :rolleyes: And I have no intention of wallowing in the cesspool of that board.

SuperSport? You know who I am talking about. Would you PM him for me and invite him over to here?

Thanks,

Dave

#7 ikester7579

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Posted 17 September 2006 - 04:12 AM

Here ya go dave: http://www.yecheadqu...reation9.0.html

This is a section I'm working on that explains creation in detail. If the person above is still interested, and open minded to God. This will convince him to take a second look. Though it is not finished, and is a work in progress. It is still very powerful just as it is. I hope this helps you.

#8 MRC_Hans

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 02:20 AM

Here ya go dave: http://www.yecheadqu...reation9.0.html

This is a section I'm working on that explains creation in detail. If the person above is still interested, and open minded to God. This will convince him to take a second look. Though it is not finished, and is a work in progress. It is still very powerful just as it is. I hope this helps you.

View Post


Maybe I shouldn't be telling you this, being an "evo" and all, but IMHO truth is the only thing that lasts.

I have been looking at your page and it is a really great work. There, you are trying to build a rational framework and fitting it to scripture. However, I don't think it will convert people who have decided to build their worldwiew from rationality rather than faith.

It WILL be a help to those who build their worldwiew on faith, but who are doubting the rationality of their faith. They will find comfort in your teachings.

The ones who try to build from rationality, OTOH, may embrace your explanations at first glance, but as they try to elaborate and build upon them, they will find that they don't hold up. The YEC world is divine, unbound as God is by natural laws, and an attempt to fit it within the rational framework of natural laws is bound to fail.

Just my 5c.

Hans

#9 ikester7579

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Posted 21 September 2006 - 08:29 AM

Maybe I shouldn't be telling you this, being an "evo" and all, but IMHO truth is the only thing that lasts.

I have been looking at your page and it is a really great work. There, you are trying to build a rational framework and fitting it to scripture. However, I don't think it will convert people who have decided to build their worldwiew from rationality rather than faith.

It WILL be a help to those who build their worldwiew on faith, but who are doubting the rationality of their faith. They will find comfort in your teachings.

The ones who try to build from rationality, OTOH, may embrace your explanations at first glance, but as they try to elaborate and build upon them, they will find that they don't hold up. The YEC world is divine, unbound as God is by natural laws, and an attempt to fit it within the rational framework of natural laws is bound to fail.

Just my 5c.

Hans

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I understand your view, and you are right. It is the person's choice. But when it comes to true faith, it's where the heart is at. If you want to understand what the heart has to do with faith and belief, do a word search on the word "heart" in the bible. It will open your eyes to God's definiftion of it. And why the heart has to be involved, or it's not real.




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