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Why It Is Inportant To Test Your Doctrine!


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#1 ikester7579

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 01:32 PM

Just because people you have grown up with and trust tell you a certain doctrine is correct. Does not mean this is so. It is not done on purpose in most cases, it because they maybe wrong even though they think they are right. And in the end, when we stand before God in judgment, you will stand alone and you will be responsible for what you believed. And if you went along with someone Else's idea of the right doctrine, and they were wrong which made you wrong. What would be your excuse if you had the ability to discern the Bible for yourself?

During judgment there will be no escape goats to blame our sins of believing wrong things when we could have corrected ourselves. So if we went along with what someone else said and did not test it, then we are just as guilty as if we came up with the wrong doctrine ourselves. It all boils down to if we have the knowledge and ability.

Here is a video that is an example of a man who believed the wrong thing for years.



All that time and all that effort he found out was for nothing.

#2 JayShel

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 02:38 PM

I agree, the idea of a fully functioning systematic theology remains elusive. We know in part. To say that we fully understand all that God has revealed is to say that we know what God knows, which cannot be true. Ultimately, there are absolutes in doctrine that must be true and are a core to salvation, such as salvation through Jesus Christ alone, but we cannot allow for this knowledge to result in pride and arrogance, God has revealed it to us, we would not know it apart from His revelation. "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal." -1 Corinthians 13:1. If we do not speak out of the love that God has given us by showing us His love for us, than we are just making noise.

#3 JayShel

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 12:42 AM

And just because we are loving, does not mean we have to appease everyone. Jesus was righteously angry in the temple when He saw that the merchants had taken over. Make sure you're passion is coming from God. We must tell the truth in love. The minute our discussions turn into a competition that we must win, and we put our ego into it, and it does not glorify God, and He often steps back to let our pride bring us crashing back to earth. I only mention this because it is something I struggle with a lot.

Keep an open mind, but definitely be guarded and ask God for discernment when something new comes along. And always verify it based on the scripture. Study the greek or aramaic, the amplified bible, and different versions of the bible to get to the root of the meaning of vague passages. Study multiple interpretations of the same doctrine and determine which fits best with the bible as a whole.

Prayer is incredibly important also. When I stop praying, I almost always start to backslide. In order to align my will with God's and allow Him to guide my life and my doctrine, I pray to Him, "You're will be done", or "Give me guidance, align my will with yours". I find that after I do this I will very often see scripture that is a direct answer to my uncertainty.

I especially like what you said about patience ike. We cannot expect God to give us everything right away, the pursuit of biblical truth and wisdom is a lifelong journey.

"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." -Hebrews 4:12

"Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge,
But he who hates correction is stupid." -Proverbs 12:1

#4 Geode

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 04:03 AM

Just because people you have grown up with and trust tell you a certain doctrine is correct. Does not mean this is so. It is not done on purpose in most cases, it because they maybe wrong even though they think they are right. And in the end, when we stand before God in judgment, you will stand alone and you will be responsible for what you believed. And if you went along with someone Else's idea of the right doctrine, and they were wrong which made you wrong. What would be your excuse if you had the ability to discern the Bible for yourself?

During judgment there will be no escape goats to blame our sins of believing wrong things when we could have corrected ourselves. So if we went along with what someone else said and did not test it, then we are just as guilty as if we came up with the wrong doctrine ourselves. It all boils down to if we have the knowledge and ability.

Here is a video that is an example of a man who believed the wrong thing for years.



All that time and all that effort he found out was for nothing.


There is a book that touches on your idea in a way. In "The Remains of the Day" a butler thinks he is just fine in life if he simply serves a great man, but then he comes to realize that the man he has long served was not great at all and feels he has wasted his life. But finally he determines to make the best of what remains of his life (day). Many people will follow a wrong doctrine to the very end and never have the awakening that is told about in the video. Yes, he wasted some years but at least he had that great awakening.

Thanks for sharing this post, it is one of the best thread starters I have seen in quite a while.

#5 ikester7579

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 07:00 AM

When we close our hearts and minds because we take "pride" in what we already believe. We also close our minds and hearts to being shown the truth. I may hold on very hard to what I currently believe, but it's because I have tested it. But I don't hold on so hard that I cannot receive correction. This is how I have come as far as I have in my faith and finding truth. I welcome correction but only if it's proven through God's word without ignoring other parts of it. Calvinism requires the believer to ignore all verses that may contradict the belief. That's why I won;t even consider it. But show me something that goes right into the word in harmony, and I will change and will accept.

So do I just jump aboard because it seems to fit? Nope. I accept only to the point I can test it more. And as it passes each test I will start to incorporate it into my belief system. It may take months, or maybe years before I accept 99% totally. The reason I say 99% instead of 100% is because I always leave the door open for new ideas that may end up replacing the old ones. Being a Christian searching for more truth means it's a constant effort.

And we need to not be so ready to jump the boat on current beliefs to easily because of all the deceptions that exists. We have to guard our hearts.

#6 rico

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 07:25 AM

..."Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge,
But he who hates correction is stupid." -Proverbs 12:1

My translation has the word discipline instead of instruction. lol

#7 MamaElephant

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 08:35 AM

We need to look at the context when we talk about Jesus getting angry. Who was he angry at and why? When he spoke of hell, to whom was he speaking and what made it good timing to speak of these things? Did he denounce these same people on every occasion? Did he realize that the timing was not right and simply walk away? I am continually amazed by the humility and wisdom of my God.

#8 Geode

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 09:02 PM

When we close our hearts and minds because we take "pride" in what we already believe. We also close our minds and hearts to being shown the truth. I may hold on very hard to what I currently believe, but it's because I have tested it. But I don't hold on so hard that I cannot receive correction. This is how I have come as far as I have in my faith and finding truth. I welcome correction but only if it's proven through God's word without ignoring other parts of it. Calvinism requires the believer to ignore all verses that may contradict the belief. That's why I won;t even consider it. But show me something that goes right into the word in harmony, and I will change and will accept.

So do I just jump aboard because it seems to fit? Nope. I accept only to the point I can test it more. And as it passes each test I will start to incorporate it into my belief system. It may take months, or maybe years before I accept 99% totally. The reason I say 99% instead of 100% is because I always leave the door open for new ideas that may end up replacing the old ones. Being a Christian searching for more truth means it's a constant effort.

And we need to not be so ready to jump the boat on current beliefs to easily because of all the deceptions that exists. We have to guard our hearts.


Once again you share good advice. We should remain open to learning more about coming closer to truth. I have found the thinking of Calvinism to be a dead end that does not allow for this.

#9 The Debatinator

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 08:31 AM

I suppose this puts me in a minority on this board. What do you say to those who were not ever taught Calvinism, not even by Calvinists he knew, but arrived at that conclusion from passages like Romans 8 and 9, Ephesians 1:1-14, and John 6:44 among others? What do you say to those who have felt that power and do have a constant conviction to fulfill Acts 1:8? What do you say to those who work on their relationship through sin and struggle and success while having no doubt in the total depravity that permeates us? What do you say to one who agrees with Calvin but still cares and strives to care more about what God thinks about his life? Who is loving to learn to tremble before Him?

Maybe his cultural emphasis on eternal security was abused, but that's hardly a reason to throw out Calvin and Spurgeon. That was his own sin, but it's not contingent upon what truths we communicate, but how we use them.

#10 ikester7579

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 04:35 PM

I suppose this puts me in a minority on this board. What do you say to those who were not ever taught Calvinism, not even by Calvinists he knew, but arrived at that conclusion from passages like Romans 8 and 9, Ephesians 1:1-14, and John 6:44 among others? What do you say to those who have felt that power and do have a constant conviction to fulfill Acts 1:8? What do you say to those who work on their relationship through sin and struggle and success while having no doubt in the total depravity that permeates us? What do you say to one who agrees with Calvin but still cares and strives to care more about what God thinks about his life? Who is loving to learn to tremble before Him?

Maybe his cultural emphasis on eternal security was abused, but that's hardly a reason to throw out Calvin and Spurgeon. That was his own sin, but it's not contingent upon what truths we communicate, but how we use them.


I never said to throw out everything. I listen to osas believing preachers all the time, even though I disagree with osas. But one has to be already set firm in the right belief foundation before they can venture into things that would corrupt those who are not set in a firm foundation. If a person's belief can be shaken, then they don't need to be venturing into dangerous places. Only those who have learned to discern God's word to a point to where they can filter out what's not true can do this and actually add more to their faith.

When we speak of what we can do, we have remember that a lot of Christians read what's here and are at many different levels in their faith. So when we try to convey this can be done, we also need to think of the ones that this may hurt their faith and send them off in the wrong direction.

#11 Salsa

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 02:50 AM

I suppose this puts me in a minority on this board. What do you say to those who were not ever taught Calvinism, not even by Calvinists he knew, but arrived at that conclusion from passages like Romans 8 and 9, Ephesians 1:1-14, and John 6:44 among others? What do you say to those who have felt that power and do have a constant conviction to fulfill Acts 1:8? What do you say to those who work on their relationship through sin and struggle and success while having no doubt in the total depravity that permeates us? What do you say to one who agrees with Calvin but still cares and strives to care more about what God thinks about his life? Who is loving to learn to tremble before Him?

Maybe his cultural emphasis on eternal security was abused, but that's hardly a reason to throw out Calvin and Spurgeon. That was his own sin, but it's not contingent upon what truths we communicate, but how we use them.


Neither have I been taught by anyone one way or the other about Calvinism, but as far as I can see it breaks scripture. It's also a little dangerous to assume that feeling the power of God manifest in one's life is an indication that one's theology is correct. The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures to determine the quality of a doctrine, and we should be doing this too!

I was raised in a occult environment and had such a deeply-rooted aversion towards Christianity that no-one could successfully witness to me. In the end, what man couldn't do God did himself by speaking directly to me thought the words of the Bible. I didn't read anything in particular, I just did what my mother used to do and flip open the Bible and randomly point to some verse to get a message from beyond.

And boy did I get a message! The power of conviction was so strong from the "messages" I got, that after a few days, I was on my knees and confessing that this is the truth above all truths. No matter what verse I read, I just knew that God was there speaking to me through them.

I know what it is to feel the power of God and the signs that accompany believers have also accompainied me during my Christian walk, just as it does in many of the others here in this forum. But for that matter I don't assume that my understanding of scripture and theology is correct, and it is also why I like to bring things to the table and discuss them from a Biblical perspective to see what is, and what isn't correct in my understanding of God's word.

Now when reading your post I get the impression that you definitely have been touched by God's Spirit and that his power is active in your life. But I wager that it is that power that is urging you to "strive and care", rather than your theology. Calvinism does not necessarily have the same effect on everyone, it depends on what powers you allow to form your heart, but I think that on Christians as a whole, and on the unbelievers who see God as being responsible for all the evil in the world, this doctrine is destructive.

#12 MamaElephant

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 05:34 PM

It is about balance. The cult that I belonged to said that the rank and file members couldn't have God's spirit, but they certainly read the Bible... a lot. Of course, if they had read a good translation and read verses of the Bible in context it would have helped.

Actually, it seems that they worshiped the Bible instead of God, and their "organization" instead of Jesus, and pretty much ignored the Spirit altogether, lumping Him in with the "organization".

#13 jason

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 02:11 PM

i wonder if the ..

ok if the others who werent never jws just follow the tendency of pagan holidays that are allowed in the church without ever questioning it.

i am not one to feeel that celebrating christmas and or the easter thing is salvinical or valentines or even birthdays.but i do struggle with this from time to time. i dont buy halloween and many churches teach against it.

and christmas and the easter thing are condenmed openly in the bible.

#14 MamaElephant

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 07:28 PM

I believe Jason, that it is about doing nothing that will hinder one's relationship with God, and for me that hindrance would come about should I feel disapproved, unworthy to partake.

#15 The Debatinator

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 08:29 AM

My issue wasn't the idea that Calvinism gives power, (Psalm 65:4 is another one), but the guy in the video seems to think that Calvinism is what kills power. That's absurd. Knowing that no one seeks God (Romans 3:10-11) and that none are good is fundamental. But the references I gave above show that God is 100% behind it all. And at the same time working out our salvation with fear and trembling before the almighty God (Philippians 2:12) because of the Spirit that empowers us (2 Timothy 1:7) and we recognize the great offense it is to sin through it. The doctrine of predestination reminds us how far we are from God and how we'd never want Him if we tried.

1 John 2:4 ~ Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

We don't have the power to give such a life change to ourselves. Jesus is a parachuter, if you will, and we are in free fall. His mercy is denying us a life of carnality and breaking us to turn us around. But the surprising truth is that people, even people of the world, can tell the difference between a believer and a non-practicing atheist.

Election Explained



#16 Salsa

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 02:31 PM

But the references I gave above show that God is 100% behind it all.


If by being "100% behind it all" you mean that God makes the decision for us then I disagree.

There is ZERO evidence in the Bible that God wants to exercise "100%" control over mankind.

On the contrary, it contradicts what scripture demonstrates is the explicit will of God:

"Do not be like the horse or the mule, which have no understanding but must be controlled by bit and bridle or they will not come to you." Psalm 32:9

God draws us. He took the initiative in loving us first. He offered us a righteousness that is by faith and not by works. All this is HIS doing! No one on either side of the fence disagrees with this!

But his victory is not in having an army of robots, but in having nation of people who go against the stream of this world and by their own free will choose to serve him.

Anything else is simply the case of the creator of the universe converting us into puppets because his "first attempt" failed.

God did not fail. We did. But his victory is in proving to satan that he did not succeed in forcing God to turn us into robots in order to get us to turn to him.

#17 ikester7579

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 05:47 PM

My issue wasn't the idea that Calvinism gives power, (Psalm 65:4 is another one), but the guy in the video seems to think that Calvinism is what kills power. That's absurd. Knowing that no one seeks God (Romans 3:10-11) and that none are good is fundamental. But the references I gave above show that God is 100% behind it all. And at the same time working out our salvation with fear and trembling before the almighty God (Philippians 2:12) because of the Spirit that empowers us (2 Timothy 1:7) and we recognize the great offense it is to sin through it. The doctrine of predestination reminds us how far we are from God and how we'd never want Him if we tried.

1 John 2:4 ~ Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

We don't have the power to give such a life change to ourselves. Jesus is a parachuter, if you will, and we are in free fall. His mercy is denying us a life of carnality and breaking us to turn us around. But the surprising truth is that people, even people of the world, can tell the difference between a believer and a non-practicing atheist.

Election Explained


Being elected or predestined is a type of salvation Christ could not die for. Why? Christ died as sin atonement to give us a choice, not to have our choice already made for us.

Also predetermined choices means that God is the puppet master and we are the puppets with no choice. We are basically a living a matrix where God uses His powers to control us as if we had spells cast upon us

1. Why get saved if your destiny is already predetermined?
2.Why bring others to Christ if their destiny is predetermined?
3.Why preach why have churches if the congregation's destiny is already predetermined?
4.Why have a forum like this that tries to correct evolution if everyone who comes here has their destiny already predetermined?
5.If God is no respecter of persons, how can He pre-elect certain people for Heaven while damming others for hell?
6.Why have judgment if the judgment is predetermined for everyone? Would you like to be accused of a crime and have your verdict already predetermined?
7.And what about those pre-damned for hell? God specially creates certain people that will go to Hell without a choice? That is sadistic. That's like getting pregnant so the woman can abort the child who, by the way, also has no choice either. Which brings up another question. Does God also created people to be aborted? Because if predestination were true then God becomes a part of abortion because He allows it.

Predestination would also mean God creates people to be:
1. Raped.
2. Murdered.
3. Molested.
etc....

Predestination makes God responsible for our sins because He predetermined them.

Sorry that does not work.

Added: I just watched some of that video you posted. If you believe election is the only way we can be saved or come to salvation, you are sadly mistaken. And that part where he says that if God opened the door and told people if they would bow their knee they could get out. And they would reject God and slam the door in God's face? That's what I call laying it on thick.

The parable of the rich man poor man clearly shows that not only did the rich man not want to be there, but he wanted to go warn his brothers. Does that sound like door slamming? Nope. So he is using stuff that is not even supported in God's word to make his point.

Then he uses the Lord of the Rings movie as an example? The example of good in this movie is a wizard. Wizards get there power from the demonic side. So the example of Christ in this movie is someone who basically practices witchcraft? Oh what a slippery slope we slide down on.

And now he using the verse that says man cannot come to God. Using verse out of context is a deception. Because the Bible also says that Man can come to God through Christ.

And i could go on and on.

#18 The Debatinator

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 11:14 PM

Before this continues I do want to pray for peace in our discussion and a mutual love for God and not doctrine. I know these kinds of things can get out of hand and I would not like for that to happen.

That being said, Uppsala, do not twist my words. I didn't say anything about want. I just posted passages that clearly state God's role and man's role in salvation.

Being elected or predestined is a type of salvation Christ could not die for. Why? Christ died as sin atonement to give us a choice, not to have our choice already made for us.


Man chooses death. Always. Only an encounter with God changes this. We are so incredibly evil.

Romans 3:10-11

1 Cor 6:20 and 7:23

Does God not own what He has purchased? Does man have illumination or Spiritual discernment without the Holy Spirit? Where in the Bible does it say anyone besides Christians have free will to do good or evil?

Romans 8:7 stands in the way.



Also predetermined choices means that God is the puppet master and we are the puppets with no choice. We are basically a living a matrix where God uses His powers to control us as if we had spells cast upon us.


This is another assumption. We find freedom in Christ and growth in the awakening He gives with the Holy Spirit. When you say "predetermined choices" I would articulate that God is irresistible to those He revives. God sets the bumpers like a bowling lane, though the choice in the circumstance is of our hearts.

Exodus 4:21

Psalm 65:4

John 6:44

1. Why get saved if your destiny is already predetermined?

Begging the question. Who wants to be saved?

2.Why bring others to Christ if their destiny is predetermined?

Acts 1:8 also applies to #4

3.Why preach why have churches if the congregation's destiny is already predetermined?

Do you think predestination is down to molecular time detail? If this is what you've been told, you have been seriously misinformed. God chose people before. That is unmistakable.

Eph 1:1-14

The fact is, now that we are changed in God, we strive and strive to live in Him. This may throw you off because it seemingly contradicts the misapplied view you have of this topic, but at the same time we have...

James 4:2-3

There is, in all the deep mysteries of God, the active participatory work we as the regenerate have with the Holy Spirit in prayer and deed. We are to have balance. God did not turn us around to have us go back to the old nature. Do you believe God made you a new creature? Would He ever withdraw His Holy Spirit, or are we more powerful than the Holy Spirit so as to push it out?

2 Cor 5:17

5.If God is no respecter of persons, how can He pre-elect certain people for Heaven while damming others for hell?


I have no answer for you. Romans 9 does.

6.Why have judgment if the judgment is predetermined for everyone? Would you like to be accused of a crime and have your verdict already predetermined?


God is all about glorifying Himself and His mercy is displayed not only in salvation and displays of wrath, but also patience. Do you believe God could show His mercy or his wrath without injustice?

Romans 9:18

7.And what about those pre-damned for hell? God specially creates certain people that will go to Hell without a choice? That is sadistic. That's like getting pregnant so the woman can abort the child who, by the way, also has no choice either. Which brings up another question. Does God also created people to be aborted? Because if predestination were true then God becomes a part of abortion because He allows it.


Never call God sadistic. God demanded the killing of nations at the hands of the Hebrews and He was just for it. God allowed Israel to be slaughtered and scattered. God allowed Adam and Eve to Fall. God had David and Bathsheba's offspring to die. Now think about this. God allowed the worst possible crime ever in history to occur. The greatest offense greater than any earthly grievance was fervently anticipated by God and SPECIFICALLY orchestrated by Him. The murder of the only perfect Person ever, and the Son of God and God Himself, Jesus Christ. To deny this as the greatest objective injustice is to commit blasphemy as if anything else comes before God in importance. Even abortion.

Predestination would also mean God creates people to be:
1. Raped.
2. Murdered.
3. Molested.
etc....


What do you think of the book of Hosea? Was God wrong to do what He did in the life of the prophet? How about Job? Was He so ignorant so as to not know that telling Satan to only spare Job's life would leave his family and belongings to calamity? Did He not know that Satan canNOT resist an opportunity to steal, kill, and destroy? And what did God say to Job at the end of it all? Basically "Who are you, what can you do and what did you do?" That's all. We rest in God without anxiety.

Philippians 4:6

The parable of the rich man poor man clearly shows that not only did the rich man not want to be there, but he wanted to go warn his brothers. Does that sound like door slamming? Nope. So he is using stuff that is not even supported in God's word to make his point.


Did the rich man ask to go to Abraham's bosom?

Then he uses the Lord of the Rings movie as an example? The example of good in this movie is a wizard. Wizards get there power from the demonic side. So the example of Christ in this movie is someone who basically practices witchcraft? Oh what a slippery slope we slide down on.


Ok. Sir, with all due respect I implore you to listen intently this time. If you do, you will hear him say "but we forget that men too are evil". The slippery slope is the lack of scripture impacting people's lives and clouding us from conviction. The slippery slope is falling to extremes. The slippery slope is denying the need to ask about the details of the issue before knowing what you disagree with.

I hope this post clears up some things for you on the understanding of predestination. Again, the issue is not with me, Washer, Piper, Wilkerson, Driscoll, Chan, or anyone else but scripture and what we throw away for sake of tradition.

As I've said before, Romans chapters 8 and 9 are the most outspoken on the issue.

Primers: Romans 9:18 Romans 8:29-30

#19 Salsa

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 12:47 AM

That being said, Uppsala, do not twist my words. I didn't say anything about want. I just posted passages that clearly state God's role and man's role in salvation.


What words did I twist?

If you want a peaceful discussion then please refrain from making unnecessary accusations like that.
It try hard NOT to twist words. It could very well be that I have missunderstood your position, but such things can be easily resolved.

Notice that I started out carefully by saying "IF" you mean by this...

If that is not what you meant then tell me and I will be satisfied with that.

But whatever the case, I still maintain that there is zero evidence that God "wants" or for that matter "does" control peoples minds. But again, if that is not what you believe then just let me know. I am not unreasonable, and I am not trying to turn this into a heated argument. I just disagree with Calvinism for the reasons I have given.

Don't take this personally. What we need to do is to take a few steps back and try to see this in perspective. You are providing one strawman argument after another and it is important to put the core issues on the table so that we don't waste time with multiple arguments that have no real bearing on the discussion.

What I mean by this is that you are pitting certain biblical concepts against those who are in opposition of Calvinism as if they were disagreeing with scripture.

Disagreeing with Calvinism does not nullify, or cast any shadow on the idea that God has a perfect right to judge mankind. It does not nullify the idea that God can impose his will "irresistably" on mankind in order to bring his own will to pass, and it does not nullify belief in the new creation.

What it DOES boil down to is rejection of the idea that God predestined people to go to hell, or that God controls all of our thoughts. It is not that God CANNOT do so, but because it stands in conflict with his will.

There is a reason why God inspires rather than dictates, just as there is a reason why God draws rather than pushes.

It is the glory of God that he does so, not because of weakness or inability.

What gives you more pleasure? Having children that do their chores because you force them to, or having them do their chores of their own free will, motivated by love.

In the OT, no one did their chores. Did God remedy this by enforcing total mind control, or by "loving us first"?

Again, I think this verse sums it up:

"Do not be like the horse or the mule, which have no understanding but must be controlled by bit and bridle or they will not come to you."

#20 The Debatinator

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 12:29 PM

What words did I twist?

If you want a peaceful discussion then please refrain from making unnecessary accusations like that.
It try hard NOT to twist words. It could very well be that I have missunderstood your position, but such things can be easily resolved.


I apologize for using hasty words. Let's clear this up. When I say "behind it all" I am speaking of the conversion itself, not every thought and action. Christians have a choice to do good or evil and we are unique in that sense. The unsaved can only do evil and God can only do good.

But whatever the case, I still maintain that there is zero evidence that God "wants" or for that matter "does" control peoples minds. But again, if that is not what you believe then just let me know. I am not unreasonable, and I am not trying to turn this into a heated argument. I just disagree with Calvinism for the reasons I have given.

Don't take this personally. What we need to do is to take a few steps back and try to see this in perspective. You are providing one strawman argument after another and it is important to put the core issues on the table so that we don't waste time with multiple arguments that have no real bearing on the discussion.


I'm struggling to find the strawman. The video specifically attacked the doctrine of predestination, which scripture clearly lays out. TULIP I have no issue with, either.

What I mean by this is that you are pitting certain biblical concepts against those who are in opposition of Calvinism as if they were disagreeing with scripture.

Disagreeing with Calvinism does not nullify, or cast any shadow on the idea that God has a perfect right to judge mankind. It does not nullify the idea that God can impose his will "irresistably" on mankind in order to bring his own will to pass, and it does not nullify belief in the new creation.


To me, it seems as if ikester feels that God not giving a "fair chance" of sorts would be unjust. I was directly addressing that.

What it DOES boil down to is rejection of the idea that God predestined people to go to hell, or that God controls all of our thoughts. It is not that God CANNOT do so, but because it stands in conflict with his will.


God has an active and passive will. God wills that all would be saved. Are all saved? No. And there are vessels of wrath. The "what if" in Romans 9 gives real examples of such to show it is true.

What gives you more pleasure? Having children that do their chores because you force them to, or having them do their chores of their own free will, motivated by love.


The questions go: Who defines love but God? Can you truly love God as an unregenerate person? Who is motivated by God but one who is changed by God? Are we not having to be adopted into His family? Are we not Gomer? Are we not bought with a price as the scriptures tell us? Bought from what or who?

First, address all the scriptures in my post above. I'd really want to know where I've misapplied. Especially Ephesians 1:1-14 and Romans chapters 8 and 9. But overall, predestination and total depravity are explicit. No one is on a neutral plane.

For further illustrations and exposition here is a full sermon:

http://marshill.com/.../predestination

Edit: I implore you to listen to all of it. The illustration with his daughter near the end is pitch perfect.




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