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Sin Fall Vs Death

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#1 Crous

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 05:08 AM

I have some question regarding the lateral understanding of Genesis. Here are some of them.

Genesis 1:28
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
Most YEC will say that man and animals could not die before the Original Sin.
Q1: If man could not die and would live forever and still have to be “fruitful and increase in numbers” would we not have run out of space, food and water?

Genesis 1:29
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
Q2: If Man could not die before the Original sin. Why did he need to eat?

Genesis 2:17
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Q3: If there was no death before the Original Sin. How did Adam know that death is? Either God explained it to Adam or Adam witnessed death.

Some would say that it is only natural death not accidental death.
Q4.1: If man could only die of accidental death, where would he go?
Q4.2: If man could not die in an accident, does this mean his body is indestructible?

#2 Crous

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 11:19 PM

I have some question regarding the lateral understanding of Genesis. Here are some of them.


"I have some question regarding the literal understanding of Genesis. Here are some of them."


:rolleyes: I apologise for the spelling and grammar mistakes that I make. English is my second language. Word spell checker only help that much.

#3 Crous

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:59 AM

To my knowledge there is nowhere in the bible that it directly say that there was no death before the original sin.

The YEC assumption is that if the punishment of sin is a physical death, there was no death before sin. This is the same mistake that Adam and Eve made when the serpent told them that they will not die if they eat from the tree of knowledge.

Another assumption YEC make is to say that when God said on the seventh day that the creation is “very good” or “good” that it is equal to perfection. And there can be no death in a perfect creation. I would rather say that it is good or perfect for the purpose that it was created for.

#4 Crous

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:47 AM

Let’s look at my first question #1

Genesis 1:28 28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

Most YEC will say that man and animals could not die before the Original Sin. Q1: If man could not die and would live forever and still have to be “fruitful and increase in numbers” would we not have run out of space, food and water?



God’s first instruction to man was to “Be fruitful and increase in number”. This instruction was destined for failure. Especially if man could not die. We know the earth do not increase in size. So at some point in the future the earth would run out of space if the human and animal population continue to increasing.

Now this can be resolved if God increase the size of earth. This only result in more problems, gravity. We know that if an object increases in mass it gravitational force increases. You can imagine the consequences this will result to. This law can also be adjusted by God. All this adjustments will result in a disordered creation. Do such a creation fall in the characteristic of the Christian God?

We also know that no water is added to earth from outside. The human body consist of at least 50% of water. Plants require water to survive and grow. If humans keep on eating plants and drinking water and keep on reproducing without dying. Some time in Adams never-ending life all the water will be trapped in the human body. There will be no more water for plants. This means that somewhere in Adams future the earth will only be a desert wasteland.

#5 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:03 AM

Q1: If man could not die and would live forever and still have to be “fruitful and increase in numbers” would we not have run out of space, food and water?


I believe that God knew Adam would sin before he did, so we would have run out of space, food and water, but it was never God's intention for man to stay in an immortal state.

Q2: If Man could not die before the Original sin. Why did he need to eat?


I would assume that they still got hungry, but my guess would be for pleasure. Fruits and vegetables taste great and it's enjoyable to eat them.

Q3: If there was no death before the Original Sin. How did Adam know that death is? Either God explained it to Adam or Adam witnessed death.


I would say that God explained it to him or maybe he didn't and he just left the impression that death was not something that would be enjoyable.

Some would say that it is only natural death not accidental death.
Q4.1: If man could only die of accidental death, where would he go?


I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but I don't believe accidental death was possible.

Q4.2: If man could not die in an accident, does this mean his body is indestructible?


I don't know to what extent, but I would guess that it was a lot more durable than ours today. I'm unsure whether Adam would have felt pain if he fell out of a tree, but I tend to think that he wouldn't have. He probably would have felt himself hitting the ground, but I'm not sure if it would have actually been painful.

To my knowledge there is nowhere in the bible that it directly say that there was no death before the original sin.


The Bible says that Adam brought death into the world and I also think that it's implied by God saying that Adam would begin to die when he ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Another assumption YEC make is to say that when God said on the seventh day that the creation is “very good” or “good” that it is equal to perfection.


I agree that it's unfounded to say that when God says "very good" or "good" that it means perfection. After all, we're dealing with what God considers to be very good, not what we think that is.

And there can be no death in a perfect creation. I would rather say that it is good or perfect for the purpose that it was created for.


I don't say that there was originally no death because of the "very good" statement, but I agree that death is good or perfect in the sense that it has a God intended reason behind it. That's not to say that God didn't intend for death to be sad, but that God had a good reason for bringing this sadness in to the world through Adam.

#6 Crous

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:46 AM

Thank you for your comments.

I believe that God knew Adam would sin before he did, so we would have run out of space, food and water, but it was never God's intention for man to stay in an immortal state.


In part I agree.” God knew Adam would sin before he did”. I think this was part of God’s plan.

I disagree with this part.” but it was never God's intention for man to stay in an immortal state.” I do not think Adam was immortal. Let’s say you are right. If it was God’s intention that Adam should not live forever. And punishment for sin is physical death. This means that Adam will have died regardless whether he have sin or not. Does this not make God deceitful?

Where will Adam Go after his immortal state have ended? Heaven?

“but it was never God's intention” How do you know that it was not his intention?

What about the animals, do you think they could die? Most YEC do not think so.



I would assume that they still got hungry, but my guess would be for pleasure. Fruits and vegetables taste great and it's enjoyable to eat them.


:gigglesmile: Maybe not all vegetables....

I have not thought of it this way. Thank you. It sounds too easy, but I’ll consider this possibility.

I would say that God explained it to him or maybe he didn't and he just left the impression that death was not something that would be enjoyable.


This is not so easy to counter argue. Because of my point of view. I do not consider the first part of Genesis as historical and scientific truth. For me there may or may not have been a literal person call Adam. I do think there was human and animal death before sin.

But still the concept of death had to exist before sin. Otherwise how can it be known?


I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, but I don't believe accidental death was possible.

I don't know to what extent, but I would guess that it was a lot more durable than ours today. I'm unsure whether Adam would have felt pain if he fell out of a tree, but I tend to think that he wouldn't have. He probably would have felt himself hitting the ground, but I'm not sure if it would have actually been painful.


The problem here is you have to image a whole deferent human body than what we have today.
Let’s look at pain. Pain is good. It is your body’s way of “self-defence” a warning system. Uncomfortable yes. But needed.
Then what about accidental death. If we fall far enough we die. This is the law of physics. Adam hade to have an indestructible body to overcome accidental death.



The Bible says that Adam brought death into the world and I also think that it's implied by God saying that Adam would begin to die when he ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


It still don’t change the fact that there’s nowhere in the Bible that state that Adam was immortal. You have to make assumptions like this. (I am not saying that assumptions can’t be true.)
I do not consider this a physical death. I think it you consider this as a physical death you are making the same mistake when the serpent told Adam that he will not die.


I agree that it's unfounded to say that when God says "very good" or "good" that it means perfection. After all, we're dealing with what God considers to be very good, not what we think that is.


This I agree on.


I don't say that there was originally no death because of the "very good" statement, but I agree that death is good or perfect in the sense that it has a God intended reason behind it. That's not to say that God didn't intend for death to be sad, but that God had a good reason for bringing this sadness in to the world through Adam.


Some YEC use this in defends for no death before sin. See the link:
http://www.answersin...xist-before-sin

#7 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 09:10 AM

Thank you for your comments.


You're welcome.

I do not think Adam was immortal.


"For since, in fact, through a man [Adam] came death, through a Man [Jesus], also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." (1 Corinthians 15:21,22)

Death came into the world through Adam, so I think that that would imply that Adam did not die originally.

"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned ... But not as the offense, thus also the grace. For if, by the offense of the one, the many died, much rather the grace of God and the gratuity in grace, which is of the One Man, Jesus Christ, to the many superabounds. ... For if, by the offense of the one, death reigns through the one, much rather, those obtaining the superabundance of grace and the gratuity of righteousness shall be reigning in life through the One, Jesus Christ." (Romans 5:12,15,17)

Also the fact that God said that the process of dying would begin when Adam ate the fruit (Gen. 2:17). I think all of this points to there being no death before Adam sinned.

If it was God’s intention that Adam should not live forever. And punishment for sin is physical death. This means that Adam will have died regardless whether he have sin or not.


How so?

Where will Adam Go after his immortal state have ended? Heaven?


If he was immortal, he would have never died, but since he began to die after eating the fruit and then he eventually died, I believe that he is dead and no longer living.

“but it was never God's intention” How do you know that it was not his intention?


Because it happened and " ... the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ... is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will, ... " (Ephesians 1:3,11). "... out of Him [God] and through Him and for Him is all ..." (Romans 11:36). "Consequently, then, it is not of him [a person] who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful." (Romans 9:16)

What about the animals, do you think they could die? Most YEC do not think so.


I don't believe the animals could die. I believe this because of many things that I read in the Bible. I could list the passages if you'd like.

:gigglesmile: Maybe not all vegetables....


lol Agreed

I have not thought of it this way. Thank you. It sounds too easy, but I’ll consider this possibility.


No problem.

This is not so easy to counter argue. Because of my point of view. I do not consider the first part of Genesis as historical and scientific truth. For me there may or may not have been a literal person call Adam. I do think there was human and animal death before sin.


The author of Genesis intended it to be taken as history, an account of what really happened. Christ died to save us from the death and sin that Adam brought in to the world. Jesus and the apostle Paul clearly believed that Adam was a real person.

Hebrew scholar Dr Stephen Boyd has shown, using a statistical comparison of verb type frequencies of historical and poetic Hebrew texts, that Genesis 1 was not written as poetry, but as history.[1]

Here's another article that might help: http://creation.com/...hus-not-history

[1] Steven W. Boyd (Ph.D.), "The Biblical Hebrew Creation Account: New Numbers Tell The Story," ICR.org; http://www.icr.org/i...tion=view&ID=24

But still the concept of death had to exist before sin. Otherwise how can it be known?


Why did it have to be known? As long as Adam understood that it wouldn't be a good thing, then I see no problem, but like I said, maybe God told him.

The problem here is you have to image a whole deferent human body than what we have today.


What's wrong with that? It would still look like a human body. Adam's sin brought a curse on the earth and everything degenerates over time. I see no problem with the human body degenerating over time.

Let’s look at pain. Pain is good. It is your body’s way of “self-defence” a warning system. Uncomfortable yes. But needed.


There would be no need for a warning system when you're not in danger of anything, but you could be right. Maybe Adam did feel pain, but I don't think there was any excruciating pain going on in the garden. No broken bones or open wounds.

Then what about accidental death. If we fall far enough we die. This is the law of physics. Adam hade to have an indestructible body to overcome accidental death.


I have no problem with an indestructible body. God made it so that the shoes and clothes of the Israelites were kept together during their forty years of wandering in the wilderness (Deuteronomy 29:5).

Some YEC use this in defends for no death before sin. See the link:
http://www.answersin...xist-before-sin


Yeah, I know.

#8 Crous

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:14 AM

"For since, in fact, through a man [Adam] came death, through a Man [Jesus], also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." (1 Corinthians 15:21,22) Death came into the world through Adam, so I think that that would imply that Adam did not die originally.

Thank you for all the quotes.
I do not like the “The New King James Version” it is hard to understand this English. I will quote out of the New Living Translation.

Still I do not think that the death that Adam brought upon us is a physical death. I do understand that we do not see eye to eye here. I’ll try to explain my point of view.

First, if you consider this a death that Adam brought upon us as a physical death you are making the same mistake as Adam and Eve when the serpent told them that they will not die if they eat from the tree of knowledge.
4 “You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. 5 “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.” Genesis 3:4
The serpent did not lie. They did not die a physical death. Their eyes did open. And they did receive the knowledge of good and evil. What he did not mention was that they will join him in the everlasting death (hell). And that they will lose everlasting life in heaven.

21 So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man. 22 Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life. (1 Corinthians 15:21,22) New Living Translation

If we belong to Christ we are given a new life. We know that Christ did not die on the cross to prevent a physical death. (If so he failed because Christians still die: Physically)This new life is an everlasting life in heaven, after a physical death. Not an everlasting death in hell.

Also the fact that God said that the process of dying would begin when Adam ate the fruit (Gen. 2:17). I think all of this points to there being no death before Adam sinned.

Your use of the word “process” is not supported by scripture. A literal understanding of Gen 2 does not point to a start of a process (taking a long time) it was immediately. At best there death will take a day.
“17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:17 The New King James Version
This point out that they will die that same day. We know they did not.

“17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die.” Genesis 2:17 New Living Translation
This can go either way. But no mention of a long process.
Even if I Read the Afrikaans (My first language) translations it point out an immediate death, no mention of a process.

How so?

I’ll answer this in a separate post

I don't believe the animals could die. I believe this because of many things that I read in the Bible. I could list the passages if you'd like.

What if Adam stepped on a snail?

The author of Genesis intended it to be taken as history, an account of what really happened. Christ died to save us from the death and sin that Adam brought in to the world. Jesus and the apostle Paul clearly believed that Adam was a real person. Hebrew scholar Dr Stephen Boyd has shown, using a statistical comparison of verb type frequencies of historical and poetic Hebrew texts, that Genesis 1 was not written as poetry, but as history.[1] Here's another article that might help: http://creation.com/...hus-not-history [1] Steven W. Boyd (Ph.D.), "The Biblical Hebrew Creation Account: New Numbers Tell The Story," ICR.org; http://www.icr.org/i...tion=view&ID=24

Thank you. I will have a look at this.

Why did it have to be known? As long as Adam understood that it wouldn't be a good thing, then I see no problem, but like I said, maybe God told him.

In philosophy this is a problem. For something to be understood it have to exist. If death did not exist it cannot be explained. There is no scripture that point out that God did explain death to Adam. But lest, for the moment, assume He did. If it is true that God explained that death is something “not good”. And everything is good, how would Adam know what “not good” is.
The conversation will sound something like this. “It you eat from the tree of knowledge you will surly bla-bla” “Bla-bla is not good”

What's wrong with that? It would still look like a human body. Adam's sin brought a curse on the earth and everything degenerates over time. I see no problem with the human body degenerating over time. There would be no need for a warning system when you're not in danger of anything, but you could be right. Maybe Adam did feel pain, but I don't think there was any excruciating pain going on in the garden. No broken bones or open wounds. I have no problem with an indestructible body. God made it so that the shoes and clothes of the Israelites were kept together during their forty years of wandering in the wilderness (Deuteronomy 29:5).

Did Adam have longs? Did he need to breathe? What would happen is he holds his breath? Did he have a liver? There are so many questions like this that can be asked.
You have to imagine a whole deferent creation before the original sin.

#9 Crous

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:22 AM

#5

I believe that God knew Adam would sin before he did, so we would have run out of space, food and water, but it was never God's intention for man to stay in an immortal state.

#6

. In part I agree.” God knew Adam would sin before he did”. I think this was part of God’s plan. I disagree with this part.” but it was never God's intention for man to stay in an immortal state.” I do not think Adam was immortal. Let’s say you are right. If it was God’s intention that Adam should not live forever. And punishment for sin is physical death. This means that Adam will have died regardless whether he have sin or not. Does this not make God deceitful?

#7

How so?

Maybe I miss understood you.
You stated in #5 God never intended for Adam to be immortal. (“but it was never God's intention for man to stay in an immortal state.”)
Option one: If he did not sin, Adam would live on earth forever. Resulting in a space/food/water problem (see #1)
Option two: Adam was immortal before the original sin. God never intended for Adam to be immortal. Regardless if Adam sinned or not, Adam had to die a physical death. Adam did then sin and this gave God an excuse to make Adam mortal.
Option Three: Adam (and Animals) had to die. (To resolve Space/Food/Water Problem) If Adam (and Animals) is immortal and the only way for Adam (and Animals) to die is if Adam committed the original sin. Then God needed Adam to sin. This mean Adam had no choice other than to sin. This makes God deceitful.
Option Four: Adam had a real choice. Let’s say Adam never committed the original sin. God then constantly had to change creation to composite for the shortcomings. (No Space/food/water) This is a completely deferent creating that we see today. This also results in more problems. Does this constantly adjusting universe (especially the laws of physics) point to a Christian God as we see in the bible?
Option five: Adam/man (and animals) was mortal. (No space/food/water problem). The punishment/result for sin was not a physical death but an eternal death/hell.

#10 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:31 PM

Still I do not think that the death that Adam brought upon us is a physical death.


Apart from physical death every other use of the word 'death' is figurative.

First, if you consider this a death that Adam brought upon us as a physical death you are making the same mistake as Adam and Eve when the serpent told them that they will not die if they eat from the tree of knowledge.
4 “You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. 5 “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.” Genesis 3:4
The serpent did not lie.


I believe the serpent did lie. That's what Satan does. God said you would die and the serpent said you won't die. Obviously God wasn't lying.

We know that Christ did not die on the cross to prevent a physical death.


I believe his dying on the cross will save and has already, in a sense, saved us from physical death and sin.

(If so he failed because Christians still die: Physically)


He didn't intend to immediately effectually save us from physical death right after his resurrection.

"We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever." (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

That's in the future, when "the Lord himself will come down from heaven". The dead believers are dead right now, as in no consciousness, but when Christ comes for us, they will be made alive and "rise from their graves" like Christ when he came back to life.

Your use of the word “process” is not supported by scripture. A literal understanding of Gen 2 does not point to a start of a process (taking a long time) it was immediately. At best there death will take a day.


I have to disagree. I believe the word is talking about death and the actual process of aging and dying over time.

“17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:17 The New King James Version
This point out that they will die that same day. We know they did not.


I believe this is talking about the process of dying. Some translators translate "you shall surely die" to "to dying you shall die" speaking about the process of dying resulting in death.

What if Adam stepped on a snail?


I can't be 100% positive with my ideas on this, but I imagine the small creatures were held together by God like he did for the Israelites and their clothes. The insects would simply not be killed when they were stepped on. There may have also only been large insects in the garden (just a guess), because many large insect fossils have been found, and it would be easier to avoid stepping on them.

For something to be understood it have to exist.


Why is this? Unicorns can be understood, but they don't exist.

There is no scripture that point out that God did explain death to Adam.


I agree, but that still doesn't mean he couldn't have done it. I don't know whether he did or not.

But lest, for the moment, assume He did. If it is true that God explained that death is something “not good”. And everything is good, how would Adam know what “not good” is.
The conversation will sound something like this. “It you eat from the tree of knowledge you will surly bla-bla” “Bla-bla is not good”


I still think it'd be scary for anyone to hear about the idea of no longer living, being dead and lifeless.

Did Adam have longs? Did he need to breathe? What would happen is he holds his breath? Did he have a liver?


Why wouldn't he need those things?

God never intended for Adam to be immortal.


He never intended for Adam to stay immortal.

Regardless if Adam sinned or not, Adam had to die a physical death. Adam did then sin and this gave God an excuse to make Adam mortal.


Adam's sin was the means by which God planned to make and made Adam to begin physically dying.

Then God needed Adam to sin. This mean Adam had no choice other than to sin. This makes God deceitful.


I don't believe this makes God deceitful. Also, Adam still preferred to sin.

Option Four: Adam had a real choice. Let’s say Adam never committed the original sin. God then constantly had to change creation to composite for the shortcomings. (No Space/food/water) This is a completely deferent creating that we see today. This also results in more problems. Does this constantly adjusting universe (especially the laws of physics) point to a Christian God as we see in the bible?


I agree, this idea is ridiculous, which is one of the reasons why I don't believe that's the way things happened.

Option five: Adam/man (and animals) was mortal. (No space/food/water problem). The punishment/result for sin was not a physical death but an eternal death/hell.


I disagree for many reasons.

#11 JayShel

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:00 PM

I believe that Adam's death was immediately a spiritual death (separation from God's will) and eventually lead to physical death. It was like a Christmas tree that gets chopped down, and looks physically alive for a time, and can be "fed" to keep it green, but it will eventually die being disconnected from the source of life.

God foreknew Adam would sin when he gave him free will (He can reveal prophesy because He knows the future).

The "tree of life" was only dangerous after Adam had sinned. If he ate it, he would have eternal physical life and still be spiritually dead, separated from God's will. Before he sinned, he was going to live forever whether he ate from the tree of life or not. It would have no effect before the fall.

#12 Hawkins

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:19 PM

I have some question regarding the lateral understanding of Genesis. Here are some of them.

Genesis 1:28
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
Most YEC will say that man and animals could not die before the Original Sin.
Q1: If man could not die and would live forever and still have to be “fruitful and increase in numbers” would we not have run out of space, food and water?


God showed Abraham that whether a man can reproduce is not fully at the hand of that man.

Genesis 1:29
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
Q2: If Man could not die before the Original sin. Why did he need to eat?


Perhaps for the fun of eating itself. We eat to survive and to enjoy at the same time. If one is removed, the other continue to exist.


Genesis 2:17
17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Q3: If there was no death before the Original Sin. How did Adam know that death is? Either God explained it to Adam or Adam witnessed death.


He doesn't need to know, as long as he knows that it's a bad bad thing. Genesis is written so because it address audience other than Adam.

Some would say that it is only natural death not accidental death.
Q4.1: If man could only die of accidental death, where would he go?
Q4.2: If man could not die in an accident, does this mean his body is indestructible?


We have 3 parts. The soul is immortal. The Bible doesn't seem to mention that the body is immortal. People in heaven may still need the "tree of life".

Adam's story says that even a perfect figure like Adam may not be able to stay in eternity with God due to the lack of faith and obedience. That's why Bible speaks a lot about Law and Faith.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: sin fall, Death, Adam, Genesis

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