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#1 Dave

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 09:20 AM

Apparently, the notion of three raptures has been popularized in a recent book by Ty S. Lamb titled, "Three Raptures, Exploring the Possibilities."

There are a lot of Google hits.

I've read through quite a few of the reviews and excerpts, and it still doesn't pop out at me. Maybe I'm going through a "dumb" period right now. :)

Anyway, I'm opening up the topic for discussion.

Dave

#2 ikester7579

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Posted 20 January 2011 - 09:06 PM

I did not read the book, but here is a PM I sent someone on it:

Pretrib. rapture: Which is the rapture of those who are saved. AKA rapture of the church.

Verses:
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Midtrib. Rapture: Which are the ones spoke of in the Bible where they rejected the mark of the beast, and were beheaded for what they did. While in Heaven they plea for the others who are suffering on earth. Which tells us they were the only ones during the tribulation (trib) that went to Heaven.

Verses:
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Posttrib Rapture: Is where Christ comes back to fight evil, and the battle of Armageddon. Those saved, and where taken up in the pre and mid trib raptures will be with Christ. Those who survive and were faithful will be taken up (raptured).

Matthew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

etc...

Here's how it works:
Pretrib is for those whom held fast to their faith in Christ, and did not faulter

Midtrib is for those who were left behind and knew about Christ but rejected. The only way here to be saved is to die by rejecting the mark.

Posttrib is for those who endured for Christ, and where not killed because the anti-christ did not find them. The anti-christ is not going to be able to find everyone and kill them for rejecting the mark.

The reason they are separated raptures is because the condition of each is different. And also because God works in numbers, this works out to be a trinity.



#3 Dave

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 08:50 AM

I did not read the book, but here is a PM I sent someone on it:

View Post


Hi Isaac,

Thank you for summarizing and clarifying. I see what is meant by the three raptures now.

Here are my thoughts:

I wonder if perhaps there are really three raptures, per se.,or only just the one.

I'm thinking there is the one true rapture, the 1Thes 4:17 classic "caught up" rapture. That's your pre-trib rapture.

Then there is your mid-trib rapture. But, is it really a rapture, per se? Those who die in Christ at the hand of the anti-christ are killed, and then immediately are with Christ in Heaven. Where does it say they are "caught up?"

Finally, your post-trib rapture. When Chist returns to vanquish those who followed the anti-christ only the surviving saved are left. But, as you said, they don't die, so they can't be "caught up." They remain alive to populate Christ's Millennial Kingdom.

I'm not wanting to dispute the events that occur in that order. I'm just wondering if it is a bit of a semantics thing to call the last two events raptures, when they are not being "caught up" like in Thessalonians.

Dave

#4 JoshuaJacob

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 06:57 PM

I don't believe there is even going to be one rapture, as the rapture doctrine describes. I gave My reasons in another thread about the rapture doctrine today being a modern one.

As far as I know from books by people like Hal Lindsey is that people will disappear an so on.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

I know the rapture doctrine uses this passage as the basis of their belief.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Now the passage before Thessalonians 4:17 to Me describes what will happen on Judgement day, something that every one will be aware of and will be public.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Again this passage tells Me that the coming of the Lord will be the start of Judgement day.

I know a lot of people use the tribulation as something that will happen after the rapture, below I will post what I posted in another thread about this tribulation:

Well, if one looks at history and what the bible says about the tribulation, it has already happened. When the Romans came to Jerusalem in 70ad, they completely destroyed it leaving not one stone left upon another, just like Jesus prophesied about the temple. It isn't until centuries later that people like Martin Luther and John Calvin who came up with the tribulation being referred to some future event, rather than something that already happened. See how mans opinions catch on and the truth is brushed under the rug and no one knows what is what. Historicist's see Matthew's reference to "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21) as parallel to Luke's reference to "great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people," the Jews (Luke 21:23). Hence they conclude that it was fulfilled on the Jewish people alone. People say, well Christians will be persecuted and its the time of the great tribulation BUT all one has to do is look at history and see that Christians were being persecuted by the Romans and others in the past, so why isn't that the great tribulation? Jesus' warning in Matthew 24:34 that "this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" is tied back to his similar warning to the Scribes and the Pharisees that their judgment would "come upon this generation" (Matthew 23:36) that is, during the first century rather than at a future time long after the Scribes and Pharisees had passed from the scene. The destruction in 70 AD occurred within a forty-year generation from the time when Jesus gave that discourse. The judgment on the Jewish nation was executed by the Roman legions, "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matthew 24:15) which Luke presented to his Gentile audience, unfamiliar with Daniel, as "armies" surrounding Jerusalem to cause its "desolation." (Luke 21:20) Since Matthew 24 begins with Jesus visiting the Jerusalem temple and pronouncing that "there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down". There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that another Jewish temple will ever be built. The prophecies were all fulfilled on the then-existing temple that Jesus spoke about and that was subsequently destroyed within that generation.


Recorded history will tell Us a lot about this tribulation that's referred to in Gods word.

I'm would like to discuss this with all of You and see what everything thinks and why they believe. I'm open to a discussion

God bless

#5 JoshuaJacob

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 07:06 PM

I left out allot and I'm hoping we can discuss some of the verses that people use as proof about the rapture and what it means.

#6 Dave

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 08:30 PM

Hi Joshua,

Since I am the topic starter I'd like to insist that this topic be strictly a discussion as to whether there are three raptures. It is presumed that those wanting to discuss this already understand that scripture describes at least the one 1Thes pre-trib catching up of the saints.

You are welcome to disagree with the 1Thes rapture, but to discuss it you should start your own thread.

I appreciate your consideration in keeping this thread on topic.

Thanks,

Dave

#7 JoshuaJacob

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 08:37 PM

Sorry, didnt even think about it ;)

#8 ikester7579

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 10:33 PM

Hi Isaac,

Thank you for summarizing and clarifying. I see what is meant by the three raptures now.

Here are my thoughts:

I wonder if perhaps there are really three raptures, per se.,or only just the one.

I'm thinking there is the one true rapture, the 1Thes 4:17 classic "caught up" rapture. That's your pre-trib rapture.

Then there is your mid-trib rapture. But, is it really a rapture, per se? Those who die in Christ at the hand of the anti-christ are killed, and then immediately are with Christ in Heaven. Where does it say they are "caught up?"

Finally, your post-trib rapture. When Chist returns to vanquish those who followed the anti-christ only the surviving saved are left. But, as you said, they don't die, so they can't be "caught up." They remain alive to populate Christ's Millennial Kingdom.

I'm not wanting to dispute the events that occur in that order. I'm just wondering if it is a bit of a semantics thing to call the last two events raptures, when they are not being "caught up" like in Thessalonians.

Dave

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To understand what is meant in each one, you really have to take notice of the words around the event in each verse. Such as mid-trib. The people were taken up and asked for mercy for the ones left to endure what they did.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

1) It shows when they were taken up (during the tribulation).
2) That they endured what the anti-Christ was dishing out (death) to everyone who rejected the mark (slain for the word of God).
3) And that they asked for mercy for the one they left that had to endure the same thing (And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?).

If you think three raptures are wrong, I ran into a site that was promoting 6 or 7 raptures. I did not read it because it went really into depth, but it might be an interesting read if they back up everything with scripture.

Also, raptures are a type of judgment. The reason the three would be considered raptures is because in each only the righteous are taken. It's the same as the separation of the sheep and goats at the judgment throne of Christ.

Rapture 1: Are those who are saved and considered part of Christ's church, the unsaved are left behind.
Rapture 2: Are those who gave their lives by rejected the mark of the beast, while those who accepted the mark are left behind.
Rapture 3: Are those who endured the tribulation and were Christians the anti-Christ could not kill, while the unrighteous are thrown into Hell to wait judgment.

You see in each one the Righteous is separated from the unrighteous. Anytime there is separation like this, it's a type of judgment which equals a rapture.

So basically: Separation of the righteous and unrighteous is a type of judgment, which equals rapture. And each one meets that criteria.

#9 Dave

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 09:07 AM

OK. How about this? I'm assuming you are a born-again Christian and will be with Jesus Christ in Heaven when you die. Obviously, your body will be in a grave or cremated, but your spirit will be with the Lord. Right?

Do you consider that being raptured?

I ask that because when God intends to use "caught up" he specifically says that. For example, in Acts 8:39, 2Cor. 12:2&4, and Rev. 12:5, there are those who are specifically "caught up" -- same word, "harpazo."

In the verses you gave in the last post, there is no being "caught up." They are with the Lord because they died in Christ, just like you and I will be some day if we happen to die before the rapture.

Again, I'm not disputing any of the referenced events. I'm just thinking that the word "rapture" is being used for something that is not literally being raptured.

As you said in your post, if one wants to extend the use of rapture one could probably come up with dozens of "raptures." But, that wouldn't be scripturally proper, would it?

Dave

#10 Teejay

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 01:27 PM

OK. How about this? I'm assuming you are a born-again Christian and will be with Jesus Christ in Heaven when you die. Obviously, your body will be in a grave or cremated, but your spirit will be with the Lord. Right?


Dave, Right! But the Rapture is for any saved under the Gospel of Grace and are members of the Body of Christ. Paul stated that he was the first man ever saved under this new Dispensation of Grace. He teaches that he is the "pattern."

The first to be raptured are those members of the Body of Christ who have already died. Paul will most likely be first. Then those that are alive will be taken.

Do you consider that being raptured?

. The Rapture is the taking up of our physical bodies. When we die as members of Christ's Body, we immediately are present with the Lord. Paul wrote, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

I ask that because when God intends to use "caught up" he specifically says that. For example, in Acts 8:39, 2Cor. 12:2&4, and Rev. 12:5, there are those who are specifically "caught up" -- same word, "harpazo."


Acts 8:39 and Rev. 12:5 does not refer to the Rapture. The Rapture is not mentioned in the Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, the Book of Acts, or in any by any circumcision apostle (James, Peter, etc.). Only Paul mentions the Rapture and he explains it. Why is this? Because the establishment of the Body of Christ by God through Paul with the Gospel of Grace was a "mystery never before revealed."

Concerning Israel and the Kingdom, everything was prophesied: Acts :2; Luke 24:25-27; Luke 4:41.

Nothing was prophesied for the Body of Christ: Rom. 16:25-26; 1 Cor. 2:7, 10; Eph. 3:2-3, 5, 9; Col. 1:2-26.

In the verses you gave in the last post, there is no being "caught up." They are with the Lord because they died in Christ, just like you and I will be some day if we happen to die before the rapture.


Correct. Thus far, all who have died are with the Lord, i.e. their spirits are with Him. Rapture of our physical bodies is future.

Again, I'm not disputing any of the referenced events. I'm just thinking that the word "rapture" is being used for something that is not literally being raptured.


There is much confusion on this subject because theologians fail to "rightly divide" Israel from the Body, circumcision believers from uncircumcision believers, Law from Grace, etc. Many "left-behind" authors add to the confusion and think that Jesus was referring to the Rapture when He said, "Two will be in the field and one will be taken..." But what they don't discern is that here Jesus is not referring to the Rapture where only the righteous in Christ will be taken. Here Jesus is teaching that the one taken will be taken in judgment. The one who remains is righteous. When one of his disciples asked Him, "Where Lord? Where will they be taken. Jesus answered, "Where the vultures are." This does not sound like being rescued from the wrath that is to come. And in teaching this scenario, Jesus likened it to the Flood when all were drinking and eating and were taken in judgment. Rapture is for the Body of Christ only and is mentioned only by Paul.

As you said in your post, if one wants to extend the use of rapture one could probably come up with dozens of "raptures." But, that wouldn't be scripturally proper, would it?

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No it would not. There is only one Rapture. It is Pre-Tribulation, for the Body of Christ only, and is taught only by Paul.

I will be glad to discuss this further in depth if you like.

Teejay

#11 MarkForbes

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Posted 25 March 2011 - 02:56 AM

I shortened out some excerpts. The other thread JoshuaJacob mentions is here.
http://www.evolution...wtopic=4100&hl=

I don't believe there is even going to be one rapture, as the rapture doctrine describes. I gave My reasons in another thread about the rapture doctrine today being a modern one.

As far as I know from books by people like Hal Lindsey is that people will disappear an so on.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 ...I know the rapture doctrine uses this passage as the basis of their belief....Now the passage before Thessalonians 4:17 to Me describes what will happen on Judgement day, something that every one will be aware of and will be public....Again this passage tells Me that the coming of the Lord will be the start of Judgement day.

I know a lot of people use the tribulation as something that will happen after the rapture, below I will post what I posted in another thread about this tribulation:
Recorded history will tell Us a lot about this tribulation that's referred to in Gods word.
...

View Post

...Agree with you on this one. This is how I understand the pre-tribulation-rapturists and I also see no reason to follow their proposition as a valid interpretation of biblical text. As I see prophesy in the NT it's quite straight forward: This age goes on with finally having very difficult times and attempts to erect a world government hostile towards Christians (events that are described in the gospels, some letters and in Revelation) This all will be happening BEFORE Jesus returns and there will be no beaming up before the last events taking place.
I found the following articles useful concerning the pre-trib-rapture teachings:
http://christiansale...ureteaching.htm
http://www.repentnow.com/rapture.htm

If someone claims there will be a pre-tribulation rapture (a first secret second coming of Christ where Christians simply disappear) and a post tribulation second second coming of Christ, he should come up with clear verses on this.

#12 Teejay

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 05:48 PM

I shortened out some excerpts. The other thread JoshuaJacob mentions is here.
http://www.evolution...wtopic=4100&hl=
...Agree with you on this one. This is how I understand the pre-tribulation-rapturists and I also see no reason to follow their proposition as a valid interpretation of biblical text. As I see prophesy in the NT it's quite straight forward: This age goes on with finally having very difficult times and attempts to erect a world government hostile towards Christians (events that are described in the gospels, some letters and in Revelation) This all will be happening BEFORE Jesus returns and there will be no beaming up before the last events taking place.
I found the following articles useful concerning the pre-trib-rapture teachings:
http://christiansale...ureteaching.htm
http://www.repentnow.com/rapture.htm

If someone claims there will be a pre-tribulation rapture (a first secret second coming of Christ where Christians simply disappear) and a post tribulation second second coming of Christ, he should come up with clear verses on this.

View Post


Mark,

With respect, can you give me a good reason why we can simply dismiss Paul's prophesy on this in First Theselonians. Paul wrote it. It's very clear what he says. So do you have a good reason to dismiss it?

In the other thread on the Rapture, I wrote in detail on this subject. Did you read it? If not will you read it and get back to me.

Teejay

#13 MarkForbes

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Posted 30 March 2011 - 03:32 AM

With respect, can you give me a good reason why we can simply dismiss Paul's prophesy on this in First Theselonians.  Paul wrote it.  It's very clear what he says.  So do you have a good reason to dismiss it?

Where does Paul say something about a pre-Trib rapture there?

In the other thread on the Rapture, I wrote in detail on this subject.  Did you read it?  If not will you read it and get back to me. 

View Post

I'll have a look their Teejay, I only read it very briefly a while ago.




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