Posted 21 August 2011 - 10:53 AM
[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1313935036' post='74462']
First of all this seems to be a political topic rather than a biblical one, but I will give the answer that comes to mind.
God's law as revealed through Jesus under the New Covenant. Matthew 7:1, 12; John 13:34-35; Mark 12:31; Galatians 6:10
Mark 12:31 shows us that our laws should be based on these principles. Would not it be wonderful if all obeyed Jesus?
Jason, Before I answer ME here, I will not answer you until you present your version of the moral law we should enact--since you do not agree with God's. Now I will examine ME's version of moral laws and see if they agree with God?
ME, I will post your Scripture reference you cited above (I'm using the NKJ):
"Judge not that you be not judged" (Mat. 7:1). If you quote that one verse by itself, you are asserting that the reason you don't want to judge is because you don't want to be judged. In other words, you're making a deal with your neighbor: "If you promise not to judge me, I promise not to judge you. And, as Rodney King said, "Can't we just all get along?" If you don't judge, you, as a Christian, can't rebuke, forgive, or witness. You have taken yourself out of the battle.
"And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these" (Mark 12:31). What's wrong here, ME, is that you are showing love to the rapist instead of the victim he raped. In when you defend the rapist, you are not really loving him. You should hate the rapist and love his victim. Otherwise your love is with "hypocracy." And you are profaning God by "keeping those alive who should not live."
"A new commandment I give you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples. If you have love for one another" (John 13:34-35). Again, applying this to your position, you, as a judge, would say to H*mos*xual, murderer, cannibal Jeffrey Dahnmer: "If I ever committed the crimes that you have, I sure would not want anyone putting me to death. Therefore, applying Jesus' Golden Rule, I am releasing you to society: Go and sin no more: Do not murder, sodomize, or eat your brother.
"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets" (Mat. 7:12). Applying the Golden Rule to your position, that no one should be put to death, you would be saying to your neighbor: I know I committed murder, but if you do not put me to death, I will not put you to death if you commit a crime worthy of the death penalty."
Then you wrote "wouldn't it be wonderful if we all obeyed Jesus?" Well let's see if you're obeying Jesus:
Does the New Testament support the death penalty? Answer: Jesus, Paul, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, thief on the Cross, Acts, Hebrews, Revelation, and even an angel--all support the death penalty. Everybody but ME supports the death penalty.
The Apostle Paul did not object to execution. He knew and defended his rights as a Roman citizen. Yet, while on trial, he volunteered an endorsement of capital punishment to the Governor of Caesarea:
Ã¢â‚¬Å“For if I [Paul] am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dyingÃ¢â‚¬Â¦.Ã¢â‚¬Â Acts 25:11
God said, Ã¢â‚¬Å“Vengeance is MineÃ¢â‚¬Â showing that vengeance is inherently good. Individuals are not to avenge themselves, but must allow God to avenge in His way:
Repay no one evil for evil. Ã¢â‚¬Â¦do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, Ã¢â‚¬ËœVengeance is Mine, I will repay,Ã¢â‚¬Â says the Lord. Paul, Rom. 12:17, 19
Paul instructs us not to seek our own revenge, but to Ã¢â‚¬Å“give place to wrath.Ã¢â‚¬Â Paul then explains that the proper channel for wrath is the Ã¢â‚¬Å“governing authorities.Ã¢â‚¬Â The place for wrath is government:
Let every soul be subject to the governing authoritiesÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ For rulers are not a terror to good works but to evil. Paul, Rom. 13:1, 3
Godly rulers are a terror to evildoers. God commands earthly government to execute criminals with the sword:
For [the governing authority] is GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s ministerÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ But if you do evil, be afraid; for he [government authority] does not bear the sword in vain; for he is GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Paul, Rom 13:4
A sword does not flog. It beheads. Paul instructs believers to Ã¢â‚¬Å“not avenge themselves, Ã¢â‚¬Å“but rather give place to wrath.Ã¢â‚¬Â Governments are the place for wrath for they are Ã¢â‚¬Å“GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s minister, an avenger to execute wrath.Ã¢â‚¬Â
The author of the book of Hebrews also supports the death penalty. The certainty of an earthly punishment under the Mosaic Law indicates the sureness of an eternal punishment for those who reject Jesus Christ:
Anyone who has rejected MosesÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ law dies [present tense] without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfootÃ¢â‚¬Â¦. Hebrews 10:28-29
Execution teaches men of the certainty of GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s eternal punishment. When governments neglect the death penalty, people scoff at the second death. The New Testament reinforces Old Testament support for the death penalty:
Be afraid of the sword for yourselves; for wrath brings the punishment of the sword, that you may know there is judgment. Job. 19:29
The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeanceÃ¢â‚¬Â¦. So that men will say, Ã¢â‚¬Å“Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Surely He is God who judges in the earth.Ã¢â‚¬Â Psalm 58:10-11
Ã¢â‚¬Å“Will you profane Me [asks the Lord] killing people who should not die [babies in the womb], and keeping people alive who should not live [Tookie Williams, Karla Faye Tucker, Scott Peterson, abortionists, kidnappers, h*m*sexuals, etc.]Ã¢â‚¬Â¦?Ã¢â‚¬Â God, Ezekiel 13:19
Jesus Affirmed the Death Penalty
Jesus affirmed the Mosaic Law and He blasted the Pharisees [and todayÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Pope] for opposing GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s commands:
Ã¢â‚¬Å“Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded sayingÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ Ã¢â‚¬ËœHe who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ But you sayÃ¢â‚¬Â¦.Ã¢â‚¬Â Jesus, Matthew 15:3-5; Mark 7:8-11
Jesus here did not shrink from even this harsh, symbolic statute which His Father had given to Israel to illustrate the eternal death deserved by those who cursed their heavenly Father. But while there has since been Ã¢â‚¬Å“a change of the symbolic lawÃ¢â‚¬Â (Heb. 7:12), quoting Jesus on this shows that He did not oppose the death penalty concerning moral law.
The Two Thieves on the Cross
One of the two thieves that were crucified next to Jesus agreed with Him and endorsed the death penalty: Ã¢â‚¬Å“Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him saying, Ã¢â‚¬ËœIf You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.Ã¢â‚¬â„¢ But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, Ã¢â‚¬ËœDo you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrongÃ¢â‚¬â„¢Ã¢â‚¬Â (Luke 23:39-41). This thief not only endorsed GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s death penalty, but he repented and Jesus assured him that Ã¢â‚¬Å“this day you will be with Me in Paradise [AbrahamÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s bosom]Ã¢â‚¬Â (Luke 23:43). These two thieves were not only criminals who stole, but the Greek word used to describe them was a criminal who not only stole but murdered their victims. They were criminals deserving of the death penalty.
Angels in heaven agree with just execution:
And I heard the angelÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ saying: Ã¢â‚¬Å“O LordÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ You have judged these things. For they have shed the blood of saintsÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ and You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due.Ã¢â‚¬Â An Angel, Revelation 16:5-6
GodÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Two Witnesses in Revelation Will Carry Out Execution
God will equip the two witnesses in Revelation to execute those trying to harm them.
And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killedÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ Revelation 11:5
If You Live by the Sword, You Die by the Sword
Revelation penman, the Apostle John, also taught that you reap what you sow:
Ã¢â‚¬Â¦he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. John, Revelation 13:10
ME, please do not simply "react" this post of mine. I know that what Fred and I are teaching here is 180 degrees from what you have been taught that is simply not true. It's not so much what we don't know but what we think we know that is not true. So please take some time and read and digest and pray a bit.
I notice that when people like Levi, who are totally off kilter, post you immediately come back with, "Good point, Levi. I never thought of that." But it seems that anything I post offends you. But I am not giving you my opinion.
Apart from God, there can be no truth. To reach truth, we must think rationally and use God's law of logic. Apart from God, there is only the material world, and laws of logic and rational thought are not physical. So to think rationally and use laws of logic, God must exist. Without God, truh can only be reached by accident and then you can't know that it's true apart from God.
Just as truth can't be contradictory, in that two contradictions can't both be true and false at the same time and in the same way, so too, something can't be both moral and immoral at the same time and in the same way. No morality can exist without God. Without God, we would only have relative morality. ME thinks homos are good people who must be loved and forgiven (even though they are unrepentant). TeeJay thinks just the opposite. But who's right and who's wrong if God is out of the picture. No one. All morals are relative. But relativism defeats itself. The man who says, "All truth is relative." And I could simply ask: "Is that absolutely true?" Because if his statement is true, then his original statement is false.
Now what it comes down to, ME, is since you don't accept God as a Moral Prescriber, then what are you left with? You can prescribe no law. But God already tried this from Cain to Noah. It was an absolute disaster. The French in the French Revolution tried it. It did not work. You can try ME's law. But then all law become subjective and relative. Or you can obey God and accept His law. Those are the only three choices you have. Now you can get angry an TeeJay the messenger, but this will not free you from the horns of your dilemma.
So, I showed above that you have not yet answered: If not God's law, then what, whose, no law, what?