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25 Common Misconceptions About Evolution


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#121 JayShel

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:03 AM

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Although Gilbot gave an amazingly thoughtful response I would like to add my two cents worth.

Let me reiterate ,and I think you will agree, racism does exist! Since it does, the theory of evolution and its alleged process infers that it (racism) had to be selected for. Logically then any act of racism or violence is due to selection processes at work. Persons that were killed were obviously, unfit and were not selected for.There is no explaining "it" away!

Well there is some explaining it away though. It depends on what degree you consider genetics to influence a particular behavior: ie racism; directly, indirectly, or not at all.

#122 MarkForbes

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:56 AM

....
Additionally how does evolution produce negative traits.... That totally goes against everything I have been taught about it. Does this mean that anything can constitute as "evolution", since it is positive, neutral and negative meaning there is literally no way to falsify it since anything can be simply claimed to be "evolution"..

The general theory of Evolution has it that the presence of functional more complex traits is the result of evolutionary process. When they say that "it may also lead to negative, weaker, less complex traits", then that's a red herring.

#123 Mike Summers

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:16 PM

Well there is some explaining it away though. It depends on what degree you consider genetics to influence a particular behavior: ie racism; directly, indirectly, or not at all.

\

You are thinking from a creationist point of view.

I think there may be some confusion over the implications of evolution. Once again racism does exist. Evolution is therefore responsible for it. Materialism and evo are essential the same ideas. Evo is responsible for racism and everything else that exists philosophically or otherwise. . If evo is true as Isabella says, then "it" caused any thinking on the subject-- even though it may conflict with the theory. .

Be advised that I I am not an evolutionist. I am just trying to show Isabella the true implications of the theory. Evo is totally independent of us and according to the theory, there is no such thing as free moral agency! Selection forces reign supreme!

Consider your statements in the light of the truth of evo and you will understand what I am trying to show Isabella about the theory. Our ability to disagree with the theory is an illusion..

#124 Mike Summers

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:41 PM

The general theory of Evolution has it that the presence of functional more complex traits is the result of evolutionary process. When they say that "it may also lead to negative, weaker, less complex traits", then that's a red herring.


If negative traits exist, they had to be selected for. What ever exists is the result of the evo process.

#125 NewPath

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 10:50 PM

Do you acknowledge that virtually all individuals of a species have mutations?


Yes I do. Humans would average more per individual per generation than bacteria because we have ~22000 genes compared to ~1000 genes.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Mutation_rate

#126 Isabella

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 04:14 PM

Hey everyone,

I realize I’m rather behind with my replies as I’ve been (and will continue to be) quite busy. Please bear with me, I’m trying to reply in chronological order.

Uppsala,

I hope you don't mind me butting in but where did Mike say anytthing about faith being separated from evidence? What faith, according to you, exists without evidence?


This is just my own opinion, but I think faith is distinct from evidence-based beliefs. One’s belief in God might be based on evidence (historical accounts, observed miracles, etc.), however I would argue that one’s faith is God is something entirely different. Even if all of the evidence were proven false, your faith in God would remain. Like I said, this is my opinion so feel free to disagree.

JayShel,

I wonder why it hasn't been done...or at least not widely disseminated. Anyway, sure it would be interesting to see such research done.


Regarding the lack of widespread research on religion-causing genes, there are a few reasons. For one thing, human studies are often difficult to coordinate due to cost and ethical reasons. In addition, there would be a lot of confounding variables to take into consideration. For example, many people tend to marry within their religious group. An allele could therefore have a high frequency in a religious group simply because there’s very little “out-breeding”... not because the allele is linked to religious behaviour. Even if a prospective gene was found, it would be difficult to test it’s mechanism of action since we can’t exactly genetically modify humans to perform loss-of-function/gain-of-function experiments. Furthermore, a complex behaviour like religion would almost certainly have multiple genetic and environmental influences. Correlating a single gene with the behaviour would not prove that the gene causes the behaviour.

#127 JayShel

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 07:40 PM

One’s belief in God might be based on evidence (historical accounts, observed miracles, etc.), however I would argue that one’s faith is God is something entirely different. Even if all of the evidence were proven false, your faith in God would remain. Like I said, this is my opinion so feel free to disagree.


I disagree. If I had no solid evidence I would have no faith. I once had faith in a group of pagan gods and godessess that I hand picked, but praying to them never yielded me anything, and there was no substantiating their existence, just a guess. When I became a Christian, I really didn't want to think about religion, popular culture had jaded me to it, yet upon examining the evidence, I kept seeing more and more substance which is why I ultimately became a Christian.

If you had a husband, then what reason would you have to believe that he was faithful. Let's say you gave him the benefit of the doubt, but if all the evidence were proven false, then would you still have faith? You would probably be looking for answers shortly thereafter...and re-evaluating your faith.

If all the evidence were proven false, then I would re-evaluate my faith, but there is so much evidence, that there is always some form of powerful evidence even when one small aspect is called into question. I am sure this is how you feel about evolution, but as I have examined the evidence for myself, I see no firm evidence that could not also point to Common Designer, and I constantly see evolutionary predictions and musings being wrong, such as junk DNA, vestigial structures, instances of transitional fossils, etc, so I don't share your faith.

In response to your response to my post:

I do believe that in groups of Muslims, Christians, Jews, there might be groups of monotheistic people who are separated enough to find a God-gene if one does exist. Of course it would still be in debate, to what extent does it influence our actions, and does that mean people without it are automatically atheist. If it only moderately influences our behavior, what is the point in having the God-gene vs no having it? So many questions...

#128 Mike Summers

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 01:58 PM

Well there is some explaining it away though. It depends on what degree you consider genetics to influence a particular behavior: ie racism; directly, indirectly, or not at all.


As you will probably agree, racism is a criticism of God's creativity--at least from a Christian point of view. "it is He who has made us and not we ourselves." The idea is that if we don;t like what God has made we probably wouldn't like him.
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#129 Hawkins

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 04:47 PM

God created only Adam and Eve. Since then the following possibility exist,

1) Without God's blessing, inter marriage between close relatives may lead to defective genes. With God's blessing the situaltion may be different though. It's not uncommon inter marriage exists among the ancient Jews. However as a result of God's blessing, 1/6 Nobel Prize winners are with Jews bloodline.

2) Inter breeding between humans and other homo errectus may result in defective genes
It is said that we have common mother genes or common father genes which says that human may have experienced extreme environment where only a few survived. No one knows how many times this occurred in history. And during those extreme periods of time how human behaved, will they interbreed with other homo errectus?

3) It is said that human experience somehow can be memorized to the genes and thus passed to their offsprings. If this is the case, no one can tell whether things like racism are resulted this way.

God created our soul? Yes. God created out body? May not be in the way you think.

#130 Mike Summers

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 12:04 AM

God created only Adam and Eve. Since then the following possibility exist,[/quote[

The scripture says, "It was He that made us and not we ourselves." . "The earth is the Lords...the world and those that dwell thee in." After he created them, he told them o reproduce.

Even science says there are no sub species in the human race! God made everyone on planet earth



1) Without God's blessing, inter marriage between close relatives may lead to defective genes. With God's blessing the situaltion may be different though. It's not uncommon inter marriage exists among the ancient Jews. However as a result of God's blessing, 1/6 Nobel Prize winners are with Jews bloodline.

2) Inter breeding between humans and other homo errectus may result in defective genes
It is said that we have common mother genes or common father genes which says that human may have experienced extreme environment where only a few survived. No one knows how many times this occurred in history. And during those extreme periods of time how human behaved, will they interbreed with other homo errectus?

Humans can only interbreed.


3) It is said that human experience somehow can be memorized to the genes and thus passed to their offsprings. If this is the case, no one can tell whether things like racism are resulted this way.

God created our soul? Yes. God created out body? May not be in the way you think.

Man's problems are spiritual not genetic. No one's existence causes racism. Racism is a choice.

#131 MarkForbes

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 09:49 AM

Man's problems are spiritual not genetic. No one's existence causes racism. Racism is a choice.

A spiritual problem that has got genetic consequences. Which is in itself a rather theological discussion and we should take it to the right subforum.
The rest are also separate discussions. Some of them have been addressed previously; perhaps not clear enough.

#132 Mike Summers

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 10:33 PM

A spiritual problem that has got genetic consequences. Which is in itself a rather theological discussion and we should take it to the right subforum.
The rest are also separate discussions. Some of them have been addressed previously; perhaps not clear enough.

I don't understand your post. Spiritual consequences for what? Could you be more specific?

#133 MarkForbes

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 04:43 AM

I don't understand your post. Spiritual consequences for what? Could you be more specific?

I was talking about genetic consequences. Surely what happened spiritually does have genetic consequences as well. And it's a big issue in the bible as well. Death after the fall, blessing Noah's sons, age reduction after the flood, necessity to be born again.

But as I said, it's a different matter.

#134 Hawkins

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 07:37 PM

Man's problems are spiritual not genetic. No one's existence causes racism. Racism is a choice.


Well, this discussion is based on "even when it is genetically related". As for racism itself, feeling superior can be as a matter fo 'educated' however this cannot be 100% proven. So the discussion can actually go either way, with both can only be an assumption.

#135 Mike Summers

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 01:02 AM

You still have not answered the question?
What genetic problems are related to sin? What about all; the people that seem to bear no sognificant genetic defects? The body which is made out of mater can not sin. Matter is nowhere is said to have sinned. People sin with their minds (spiritually)..

#136 MarkForbes

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 05:38 AM

You still have not answered the question?
What genetic problems are related to sin? What about all; the people that seem to bear no sognificant genetic defects? The body which is made out of mater can not sin. Matter is nowhere is said to have sinned. People sin with their minds (spiritually)..

Look at the way you formulated your question. The body may consists of matter, but what makes it the way it is, is information; non-material in essence.

#137 Hawkins

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:53 AM

You still have not answered the question?
What genetic problems are related to sin? What about all; the people that seem to bear no sognificant genetic defects? The body which is made out of mater can not sin. Matter is nowhere is said to have sinned. People sin with their minds (spiritually)..


I don't need to answer your question as I never hold such a view. I presented my previous points based on other's assumption, not mine. Read back to have a clue.

Why do you have to insist on such an answer from me which I have never propsosed. Again, read back to have a clue.

Someone said that racism is genetic related. I based on that assumption to make a point that our physial bodies may not be created as we expect. That's it! I never proposed anything such as sin is genetic. You need to go back to whoever originated the idea and ask him the question instead of me.

#138 Mike Summers

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:07 PM

I seem to have misunderstood. both of you.
I apologize.
All the best!
MikePosted Image
.

#139 Richw9090

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:03 AM

From an earlier post (Mike Summers):

********** Let me reiterate ,and I think you will agree, racism does exist! Since it does, the theory of evolution and its alleged process infers that it (racism) had to be selected for. Logically then any act of racism or violence is due to selection processes at work. Persons that were killed were obviously, unfit and were not selected for.There is no explaining "it" away! **********

While this is true up to a point, there is an additional point missed here. That racism (or any other trait of an organism, physical or behavioral) exists today does not mean that it is being selected for by evolution today. It means that at some time in the past, it was selected for. We humans carry a lot of evolutionary baggage. Some we have to live with (an appendix, our dissappearing third molars, our bad backs, etc.) but others, particularly behavioral traits, we do not have to live with. Religion, along with other systems of morals and ethics, is one of the things that lifts us up beyond our evolutionary heritage.

Also, I hope no one makes the common error of thinking that races do not exist, therefore racism should not exist. Races, even human races, are a biological reality. Our behaviour towards those of other races is not biologically determined, only, perhaps, biologically suggested, an echo from our past. We are free to behave differently if we choose.

Rich

Edited by JayShel, 14 October 2012 - 07:22 PM.
: Mike Summers posted this, not JayShel


#140 MarkForbes

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:23 PM

That again assumes that "it" evolved into humans. Alternatively this could have been designed into humans and yes, that design could have been corrupted as well leading to not so good behaviors.




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