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What Would It Take For A Evolutionist To Consider Creation?


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#1 ikester7579

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 03:48 AM

It's a simple question. What would it take for a evolutionist to "consider" creation.

Consider = not a trap type question.
Believe or convert = a trap type question.

One has to ponder or consider something before changing their mind. So what would make a evolutionist ponder or consider creation?

#2 jason777

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 03:36 PM

Ah, no reply means no one would ever consider it. That must prove a biased crowd, eh?




Enjoy.

#3 Spectre

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 02:14 AM

/sarcasm on


NOTHING THE BIBLE IS WRONG BECAUSE IS THE BIBLE THEREFORE IT IS WRONG!!!!!! RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

/sarcasm off

#4 zendra

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 04:57 PM

Personally I'm fairly open to creationism although it depends what you mean by it.
If you mean that a god created the whole universe and life as it is today then no i wouldnt be as open to it.
If you mean that a god started the universe and drew up the most basic life then sure.

By the way evolution isnt exclusive to creation.

#5 Spectre

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 11:31 PM

By the way evolution isnt exclusive to creation.

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I am curious as to why you made this statement. I am usually the one telling darwin supporters that evolution is not exclusive to naturalism.

#6 Ron

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 02:48 AM

Personally I'm fairly open to creationism although it depends what you mean by it.

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Fair enough; and, in turn, it depends on what you mean by it as well.

If you mean that a god created the whole universe and life as it is today then no i wouldnt be as open to it.

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Why?

If you mean that a god started the universe and drew up the most basic life then sure.

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Again… Why?


By the way evolution isnt exclusive to creation.

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Don’t you mean exclusive to naturalism? Because, as the OP suggest, the question is asked of those who normally wouldn’t consider creationism, therefore, unless you’re a theistic evolutionists, you’ll usually not reconcile evolution with creationism.

#7 MarkForbes

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 07:43 AM

...isnt exclusive to creation.

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Depends on how you define creation. Darwin mentioned a creator in his works. But afaik that was limited to the initial creation of life.
Of course one can bend a narrative till it fits. A bigger problem for evolution would be the initial occurence of complex information as in the genome.

#8 AFJ

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 01:33 AM

Personally I'm fairly open to creationism although it depends what you mean by it.
If you mean that a god created the whole universe and life as it is today then no i wouldnt be as open to it.
If you mean that a god started the universe and drew up the most basic life then sure.

By the way evolution isnt exclusive to creation.

View Post

And then if 'a god' could make matter out of nothing, and formed that matter into interlocking elements, and he used those elements to form life on a molecular scale--a cell of some type and RNA or DNA. ANd if he created a planet in a habitable position, and a sun which continuously burns without extinguishing, and make gravity.....

Why could not this God form man in his own image, as he is today, and bring a flood on the world like it's written...? Because it seems to me that to make all these things out of nothing takes unlimited power and wisdom.

Moreover, why would this 'clockmaker god' you posit not care for something that he put so much work into? Why would he not speak to the creation he created? Why would he do so much, and then just leave us behind wondering about our purpose, and what we are?

#9 roohif

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 06:59 AM

It's a simple question. What would it take for a evolutionist to "consider" creation.

Consider = not a trap type question.
Believe or convert = a trap type question.

One has to ponder or consider something before changing their mind. So what would make a evolutionist ponder or consider creation?

View Post


As people have said, this depends a lot of what you define as "creation".

There are three possible meanings I can relate to, and I'll treat them separately.

1. Creation of the universe. If there were some way to observe anything "before" the Planck time of the Big Bang, then I guess it might give us some clues. I'm agnostic (in the true sense of the word) about the creation of the universe, in that I think we may never be able to answer this question. I don't think either side has any evidence for their position. I do tend to lean towards a Big Bang / Big Crunch cycle however (purely because of 1LOT), but there are some interesting problems with it (like heat death).

2. Creation of the first living cell by supernatural means. Probably the one area where I have pondered the possibility of supernatural intervention. The current state of research is a bit of a hodge podge, where some researchers have solved some problems, but there are still a stack of problems to overcome. I don't see any of the problems as theoretically impossible (as many creationists claim). This is a fairly new area of research, so I imagine as the years go by, more of the problems will be solved (or perhaps shown to be actually impossible!) and the pendulum of my "strength of belief" will shift in one direction or the other.

3. Creation of species "after their kind". Well, given that I'm on this forum as an evolutionist, clearly I think the science overwhelmingly supports common descent, so no, I don't allow any room for special creation under this definition.
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#10 ikester7579

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 11:44 AM

Personally I'm fairly open to creationism although it depends what you mean by it.
If you mean that a god created the whole universe and life as it is today then no i wouldnt be as open to it.
If you mean that a god started the universe and drew up the most basic life then sure.

By the way evolution isnt exclusive to creation.

View Post


I find it ironic that atheist will claim evolution is not religion. But as long as evolution gets to control how God did it, no problem ;) .

Also, creation is the "only" logical explanation of the first cause, or where matter came from. Because you guys cannot explain either without halfway invoking something that is not natural.

#11 jason

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 11:51 AM

I find it ironic that atheist will claim evolution is not religion. But as long as evolution gets to control how God did it, no problem  ;) .

Also, creation is the "only" logical explanation of the first cause, or where matter came from. Because you guys cannot explain either without halfway invoking something that is not natural.

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i have noticed that. i am on another christian forum and if the entire board went to pro evolution these athiest wouldnt post anymore.nobody to discuss or convince on evolution. they arent interested in christ ans they only post on that forum in the science section.

#12 ikester7579

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 11:52 AM

As people have said, this depends a lot of what you define as "creation".

There are three possible meanings I can relate to, and I'll treat them separately.

1. Creation of the universe. If there were some way to observe anything "before" the Planck time of the Big Bang, then I guess it might give us some clues. I'm agnostic (in the true sense of the word) about the creation of the universe, in that I think we may never be able to answer this question. I don't think either side has any evidence for their position. I do tend to lean towards a Big Bang / Big Crunch cycle however (purely because of 1LOT), but there are some interesting problems with it (like heat death).

2. Creation of the first living cell by supernatural means. Probably the one area where I have pondered the possibility of supernatural intervention. The current state of research is a bit of a hodge podge, where some researchers have solved some problems, but there are still a stack of problems to overcome. I don't see any of the problems as theoretically impossible (as many creationists claim). This is a fairly new area of research, so I imagine as the years go by, more of the problems will be solved (or perhaps shown to be actually impossible!) and the pendulum of my "strength of belief" will shift in one direction or the other.

3. Creation of species "after their kind". Well, given that I'm on this forum as an evolutionist, clearly I think the science overwhelmingly supports common descent, so no, I don't allow any room for special creation under this definition.

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You do realize that you joined a YEC forum, correct? If you do not know what YEC is, it's deals with "literal Biblical creation". So what other type would we discuss?

So basically, whatever the Bible says, God did.

So we don't play a variations game here. We do allow other creation ideas and beliefs from our members. But the mods and admins basically agree with the forum ministry of YEC.

#13 ikester7579

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 03:06 PM

i have noticed that. i am on another christian forum and if the entire board went to pro evolution these athiest wouldnt post anymore.nobody to discuss or convince on evolution. they arent interested in christ ans they only post on that forum in the science section.

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That is how you tell when a atheist-evolutionist is faking his world view (christian-creationist or theistic evolutionist). They will claim such things but "never" post in the Christian sections. Their goal is cloak and dagger evangelism. They get to hide behind being a Christian, while supporting zeros views of it. Only what promotes the agenda of evolution evangelism.

What I find ironic as I often catch them here doing this, is that a true proven fact with mountains of empirical evidence would require so much deception to convince others. To me doing this means they admit to evolution being a untrue because it requires untruthfulness to promote it.

So basically it makes me laugh every time they do it. It just reconfirms what already know, and strengthens my faith that I don't have to deceive to convince others on what I believe.

Also, there are many parody Christian websites and forum popping up. Which again just proves my point that they know evolution is not true, so they have to use deception to convince people of it.

Example: A few weeks ago I went to a parody forum unknowingly. Within the first few posts I realized it as the owner was acting no where near what he was claiming as world view. I left telling him I knew what he was up to. It must of scared him that I figured it out so quickly and him just starting out with that forum. He e-mailed me and apologized and begged me to come back. I told him I was not interested, and that I knew his apology was not sincere. It was the way he wrote the e-mail that I knew he was baiting me appealing to my Christian side. He basically wanted to learn how I found him out so quickly.

When a person deals with this on an everyday bases, as I do. Spotting the bad guys becomes instinct more than anything else.

PM me the link to that forum and I'll tell you what's going on and if you are wasting your time there. Some forums, because of what they allow to be posted, are a total waste of time.

#14 jason

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 03:16 PM

That is how you tell when a atheist-evolutionist is faking his world view (christian-creationist or theistic evolutionist). They will claim such things but "never" post in the Christian sections. Their goal is cloak and dagger evangelism. They get to hide behind being a Christian, while supporting zeros views of it. Only what promotes the agenda of evolution evangelism.

What I find ironic as I often catch them here doing this, is that a true proven fact with mountains of empirical evidence would require so much deception to convince others. To me doing this means they admit to evolution being a untrue because it requires untruthfulness to promote it.

So basically it makes me laugh every time they do it. It just reconfirms what  already know, and strengthens my faith that I don't have to deceive to convince others on what I believe.

Also, there are many parody Christian websites and forum popping up. Which again just proves my point that they know evolution is not true, so they have to use deception to convince people of it.

Example: A few weeks ago I went to a parody forum unknowingly. Within the first few posts I realized it as the owner was acting no where near what he was claiming as world view. I left telling him I knew what he was up to. It must of scared him that I figured it out so quickly and him just starting out with that forum. He e-mailed me and apologized and begged me to come back. I told him I was not interested, and that I knew his apology was not sincere. It was the way he wrote the e-mail that I knew he was baiting me appealing to my Christian side. He basically wanted to learn how I found him out so quickly.

When a person deals with this on an everyday bases, as I do. Spotting the bad guys becomes instinct more than anything else.

PM me the link to that forum and I'll tell you what's going on and if you are wasting your time there. Some forums, because of what they allow to be posted, are a total waste of time.

View Post

its a christian forum and i am mod there.like here we allow athiests.

they dont hide that fact from us. the users and mods will pick false theology out though that sight isnt strictly a yec type. but most members are that way.

you cant acess the science forum as a guest.you can read it but not post when you do join.

its here www.christiansforums.net.

#15 gilbo12345

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 07:59 PM

That is how you tell when a atheist-evolutionist is faking his world view (christian-creationist or theistic evolutionist). They will claim such things but "never" post in the Christian sections. Their goal is cloak and dagger evangelism. They get to hide behind being a Christian, while supporting zeros views of it. Only what promotes the agenda of evolution evangelism.

What I find ironic as I often catch them here doing this, is that a true proven fact with mountains of empirical evidence would require so much deception to convince others. To me doing this means they admit to evolution being a untrue because it requires untruthfulness to promote it.

So basically it makes me laugh every time they do it. It just reconfirms what  already know, and strengthens my faith that I don't have to deceive to convince others on what I believe.

Also, there are many parody Christian websites and forum popping up. Which again just proves my point that they know evolution is not true, so they have to use deception to convince people of it.

Example: A few weeks ago I went to a parody forum unknowingly. Within the first few posts I realized it as the owner was acting no where near what he was claiming as world view. I left telling him I knew what he was up to. It must of scared him that I figured it out so quickly and him just starting out with that forum. He e-mailed me and apologized and begged me to come back. I told him I was not interested, and that I knew his apology was not sincere. It was the way he wrote the e-mail that I knew he was baiting me appealing to my Christian side. He basically wanted to learn how I found him out so quickly.

When a person deals with this on an everyday bases, as I do. Spotting the bad guys becomes instinct more than anything else.

PM me the link to that forum and I'll tell you what's going on and if you are wasting your time there. Some forums, because of what they allow to be posted, are a total waste of time.

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I hope this doesn't pertain to me ;) I'm just interested in the science, (since theology used to be the queen of the sciences)

#16 roohif

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 10:30 PM

You do realize that you joined a YEC forum, correct? If you do not know what YEC is, it's deals with "literal Biblical creation". So what other type would we discuss?

So basically, whatever the Bible says, God did.

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Ha! Yes. Yes I did realise that ;)

So, to answer the clarified question, "What would it take for an evolutionist to consider creation?", then my simple answer would be if that it agreed with the consensus scientific view on things like the age of the earth, and diversity of life forms.

There are excellent reasons why the scientific community doesn't take creationism seriously, and it has nothing to do with any sort of conspiracy, satanic influences, etc. It is purely because the facts point elsewhere.

#17 gilbo12345

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 02:37 AM

Ha! Yes. Yes I did realise that  ;)

So, to answer the clarified question, "What would it take for an evolutionist to consider creation?", then my simple answer would be if that it agreed with the consensus scientific view on things like the age of the earth, and diversity of life forms.

There are excellent reasons why the scientific community doesn't take creationism seriously, and it has nothing to do with any sort of conspiracy, satanic influences, etc. It is purely because the facts point elsewhere.

View Post


Or perhaps it is because their interpretation of the "facts" lead elsewhere...

Perception plays a big role in Biology since it isn;t like maths where there is a clear cut, yes / no answer.. Biology is more "fluffy" in that interpretation of evidence is allowed thus leading to bias.

If the students of today were taught to critically evaluate ideas as well as the "science" behind evolution, instead of teaching them to blindly follow it, (I am a student, this is what they basically do)... I predict that there would be many less evolutionary scientists in the world.

#18 Teejay

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 07:55 PM

[quote] name='zendra' timestamp='1306886258' post='72406']
Personally I'm fairly open to creationism although it depends what you mean by it.[/quote]

Zendra,

May I point out that before you can be open to creationism, you must first be open to the existence of a Creator. If your worldview is that no Creator exists, then no evidence would ever persuade you that creatonism is true. Undeniable evidence of a Creator shoves the truth of His existence in one's face and proves him or her wrong. People do not love you when you prove them wrong.


[quote]If you mean that a god created the whole universe and life as it is today then no i wouldnt be as open to it.
If you mean that a god started the universe and drew up the most basic life then sure.[/quote]

Why wouldn't you be open to it? It's becauseof of your worldview. Presently, you are heavily influenced by atheism/evolutionism. So, as I stated above, your worldview will not allow you to be open to it. Any evidnece presented to you will be interpreted through your worldview. Now understand, that as a Christian creationist young-earther, I have a worldview as well. And I will interpret evidence differently than you because our worldviews are different. So it comes down to which worldview is rational, nonarbitrary, consistent.

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has given an historical, literal account of how He created. Before you can accept this account, you must first accept God as Creator. But realize that without a Creator God, rational thought, reliability of senses and memory, laws of logic, uniformity of nature and absolute morality would not exist. Laws of logic and rational thought are not part of the physical universe. They are not physical. They can't come from reasonless, lifeless chemicals and molecules. Matter can't give you what it has not got to give.

Laws of logic must come from a mind that is logical. Rational thought must come from a rational mind. Absolute morality must come from a moral God. And uniformity of nature (that the physical laws are law-like and will not arbitrarily change) can only be guaranteed by a God who upholds the universe "by the word of His power," and promises uniformity of nature in Gen. 8:22 for example. The Christian creationist has a rational reason to believe these things within his worldview. The atheist evolutionist does not. When the atheist uses laws of logic, he is borrowing from the Christian worldview and is inconsistent, irrational and arbitrary with his worldview. And in doing so, he affirms that crationism is true and evolution false.

[quote]By the way evolution isnt exclusive to creation.
[/quote]

They are exclusive if you believe in a young earth and a global Flood. No old earther can believe in a global Flood. Old earth and global Flood are mutually esclusive. Adding a god to the mix will not resolve the dilemma. God promises uniformity of nature (that the physical laws in the future will be the same as in the past) in Genesis. But the theistic evolutionist does not accept a literal reading of Genesis. So he has no foundation or reason to believe that the future will reflect the past. If you don't have a rational reason to believe something, then your belief is arbitrary and can be true only by accident. I can believe that there are ten little red men inside the sun constantly twinking dials to regulate the heat of the sun. This belief would be arbitrary because i have no rational reason to believe it. Even if future space exploration does indeed prove that these men are in the sun, I had no reason to believe it and I could not know it was true.

But the theistic evolutionist will argue: "I believe that some passages in Genesis are to be taken literally." And now he is being inconsistent. Genesis is then "literal" when he needs it to be literal and not literal when he does not need it to be literal. His interpretation of Genesis is then arbitrary and inconsistent and he can't know it's true.

Your post was intriging to me and I had to answer it. I hope you will respond so we can dialogue.

TeeJay

#19 Czroo

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 08:24 AM

If the bible explains the process of creation

#20 ChrisCarlascio

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 11:16 AM

If the bible explains the process of creation

God formed man out of the soil. The many other details are listed in Genesis 1-2 and all throughout the Bible. What do you mean exactly? I don't think creation was a difficult science experiment God was trying to pull off. It was a simple matter of creating it just the way he wanted to. People who don't believe the Genesis account usually laugh at the idea of God doing it and mock it by saying "God dunnit", but I think in their case, you can just replace God with the word nothing and it sounds even more strange. Absolutely nothing did it, its magic.




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