38 replies to this topic

[Gerson]

I was reading Genesis 9:10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth.

In the 1899 American Edition

And with every living soul that is with you, as well in all birds as in cattle and beasts of the earth, that are come forth out of the ark, and in all the beasts of the earth.

and in all the beasts of the earth this part it looks like if God bless the animals of the ark AND and the others animals in the earth.

Its probably God created more animals after all he recreate all the plants around the globe right?

[Salsa]

I was reading Genesis 9:10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth.

In the 1899 American Edition

And with every living soul that is with you, as well in all birds as in cattle and beasts of the earth, that are come forth out of the ark, and in all the beasts of the earth.

and in all the beasts of the earth this part it looks like if God bless the animals of the ark AND and the others animals in the earth.

Its probably God created more animals after all he recreate all the plants around the globe right?

I don't think so. Gen 2:3 tells us that God "God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

The seventh day is special. It is not qualified with "morning and evening" as the other days are, but rather, as we can see in Hebrews 4, God calls this day "Today".

My guess is that as long as we have days governed by solar light (as opposed to the light of the Lamb mentioned in Rev 21), where God explicitly says "See I am making everything new!", God will be "resting".

As far as Gen 9:10 is concerned, I think the words "every living creature on earth" are simply used to clarify that the creatures that were on the ark were indeed all the animals that remained alive on the entire planet.

[rico]

Just quicky noting that Noah didn't have to take fish on the ark... he could have for them to eat, so they've been around for awhile. (I think) see Gen. 7
Welcome to the forum.

[Style210]

scientifically speaking a lot of Salt water animals would simply die from that amount of fresh water being put into the ocean. And alot of fresh water fish would die from the salinity of the ocean water mixing with fresh water.

[sjl197]

I'd say this is unknowable, and also it is unknowable how the approx 1.214,000 terrestrial described species were supposed to fit on one boat,
especially as scientifically there are thought to be maybe between 10 million and 30 million + total species currently on earth when all are described.

Particularly when, if i interpet this right, most of these species are considered 'clean' so would have been taken in seven of each, not just two of each
http://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Ge7.2-3


So by very rough calculations, feel free to make some better ones please..

for the number of terrestrial species already described thats approx 8,500,000 individuals of described species,
and none of the individuals for the 10 to 30 million yet undescribed species.

8.500,000 ... thats 8.5 million individuals...
adding a conservative estimate of 10 million undescribed (x7)
thats 78.500,000.. or 78.5 million individuals.

and their food, and their cages, and for 40 days and 40 nights + loading and unloading time?

Big respect to Noah and his family.


Original question sorry. -> Species today populate the earth by the same mechanisms and processes
that have influenced them in the past.

and Maybe all the bugs didnt go on the ark.
Last i heard though according to a quote allegedly from the great JBS Haldane
what he could tell about the creator, was that he must have "had an inordinate fondness for beetles'

[Gerson]

I found a good source of course trying too understand God with our human mind its imposible sometimes for some people if they cant explain it doesnt exist or its fake



http://www.christian...g/aig-c006.html

[jason]

this is what faith is called for.

its funny you ask us with no empircal evidence to buy into that an uncaring, unintellegent and amoral universe gives man and beast if the beast ever evolved enough to get intellegence and a culture.

yet cant buy into the flood.hmm both take faith. i admit mine. no man if crucified would live and yet we believe the lord came back to life.

[Portillo]

Its the same question as how humans populated the earth. Evolution says that humans evolved 200,000 years ago in Africa. So you could ask how did the Aborigines get to Australia or Native Americans to America. Did they have boats back then?

[Ron]

Its the same question as how humans populated the earth. Evolution says that humans evolved 200,000 years ago in Africa. So you could ask how did the Aborigines get to Australia or Native Americans to America. Did they have boats back then?

Atheistic evolutionists have much harder time explaining how life got here in the first place Portillo. It becomes convenient for them to attempt the use of empirical science to argue against Biblical subjects like the Flood, the Ark, and population diversity, but they totally side step how it all got here in the first place (which IS, in fact the crux of the argument). It was brought up earlier concerning faith (by Jason), which is a valid point, BUT the materialist atheistic evolutionist totally ignores their massive amounts of faith in the fact that there is absolutely NO empirical evidence for materialistic origins.

[Portillo]

And if you ask them where is the evidence, they say look at all the textbooks and scientists that believe in evolution, how could it not be true. Look at Darwins finches.

[Gerson]

Its the same question as how humans populated the earth. Evolution says that humans evolved 200,000 years ago in Africa. So you could ask how did the Aborigines get to Australia or Native Americans to America. Did they have boats back then?

or what about the population http://www.icr.org/a...lation-problem/ where are the other people? in 200,000 years you can do a lot of babies

[AFJ]

scientifically speaking a lot of Salt water animals would simply die from that amount of fresh water being put into the ocean. And alot of fresh water fish would die from the salinity of the ocean water mixing with fresh water.

Since God initiated the flood, one assumes that supernatural intervention was involved. The evidence as it sits in the fossil record shows good many extinct phyla, so in a creation model they did die. The fossils obviously died by being buried, the untracables could have died by many means, including salinity issue. Selction most likely played a role. You only need a few survivors that were in the right place, or had the right biological constitution to to reproduce.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/dec/22/luoping-fossils-discovered-china
Fossil hunters uncover complete 252m year-old underwater world
A spectacular haul of 20,000 fossils including plants, carnivorous fish and large reptiles, has been found in a hillside in Luoping, southwestern China

Fossil hunters have uncovered the remains of an ancient marine ecosystem that arose in the aftermath of the most devastating mass extinction in Earth's history.

The spectacular haul of 20,000 fossils from a hillside in southwestern China represents the first discovery of a complete ecosystem which bounced back after life was nearly wiped off the face of the planet 252m years ago.

The beautifully preserved remains include molluscs, sea urchins and arthropods, alongside much larger animals that occupied the top of the food chain, such as carnivorous fish and the first icthyosaurs, predatory marine reptiles that grew to four metres long.

Among the remnants are rare fragments of land life that survived the same period, including part of a conifer plant and the tooth of an archosaur reptile.

The fossils were excavated from rocks that formed when ocean sediments settled out and solidified many millions of years ago in what is now Luoping county in the Yunnan Province of China.

The Earth has witnessed several mass extinctions in its 4.5bn year history, but the event that struck at the end of the Permian was unequaled in scale. Some 96% of marine species and 70% of land vertebrates were lost in what has been called "the great dying".
What caused such global havoc is still open to debate, but Michael Benton, a paleontologist at Bristol University who led the latest research, said evidence points to prolonged and violent eruptions from the Siberian traps, a huge region of volcanic rock. In this scenario, mass eruptions triggered environmental catastrophe by belching an overwhelming quantity of gas into the atmosphere for half a million years. [at assumed rates--the quantity of evidence is there--AFJ]

So at a much slower rate, under the geotime model, life survived as "90 percent" of all phyla went extinct. But if life can survive, it can survive. Mount St. Helens return to life is happening much faster than scientists expected also.

The above is found in a 16 meter layer of limestone. Geode constantly admonishes me that limestone is not an evidence for the flood. But at any rate, this is a catastrophic and episodic graveyard of mixed fossils. It argues that the lime mud was pre-existant before the catastrophe and covered the biota quickly. Soft tissue has been found.

[Portillo]

or what about the population http://www.icr.org/a...lation-problem/ where are the other people? in 200,000 years you can do a lot of babies

Well there were humans, then a mass extinction, then humans started again.

[MarkForbes]

Since God initiated the flood, one assumes that supernatural intervention was involved. The evidence as it sits in the fossil record shows good many extinct phyla, so in a creation model they did die. The fossils obviously died by being buried, the untracables could have died by many means, including salinity issue. Selction most likely played a role. You only need a few survivors that were in the right place, or had the right biological constitution to to reproduce.
...

Something supernatural is not necessarily needed. The salinity argument basically assumes two things:
a) That salinity levels were more or less the same anywhere in the waters during the flood.
That the species didn't have salt or fresh water tolerances.

As a matter of fact salinity levels do differ even in todays ocean. And there is some resistance to salinity even in todays fish. What's even more important you only need to have the eggs to survive. Here is some dealing with the issue:
http://www.icr.org/a...ve-noahs-flood/

Ocean salinity is actually a problem for Evolutionists, but I think that's deviating to far from the initial question to far. For animal distribution there are basically to problems to be explained:
- land being separated from the large continents (i.e. Australia).
- speed by which animals could have distributed.

[AFJ]

Something supernatural is not necessarily needed. The salinity argument basically assumes two things:
a) That salinity levels were more or less the same anywhere in the waters during the flood.
That the species didn't have salt or fresh water tolerances.

As a matter of fact salinity levels do differ even in todays ocean. And there is some resistance to salinity even in todays fish. What's even more important you only need to have the eggs to survive. Here is some dealing with the issue:
http://www.icr.org/a...ve-noahs-flood/

Ocean salinity is actually a problem for Evolutionists, but I think that's deviating to far from the initial question to far. For animal distribution there are basically to problems to be explained:
- land being separated from the large continents (i.e. Australia).
- speed by which animals could have distributed.

I tend to agree with you MarkForbes. I am sure that there was SOME supernatural intervention, or at least planning on the initiation--lol.

But yeah. Salt water and fresh water in the everyday ocean cause a halocline, which is vertical stratification. There is a density difference--the ions will eventually diffuse in the lab, but the ocean is moving, there are evaporation, current, and temp factors affecting the halocline. So during the first part of the flood, if there were outbursts of less salty water--or fresh water "dambreaks" from land flooding went into lower elevation, high salinity areas, then they would pick up the salinity differences they now measure in the strata. And like I said, if there was a high salinity difference after the fountains and rain stopped, I'm sure that many tropical and/or freshwater fish DID die. But it only takes two survivors out of millions to restart a population. I read an article the other day on a algal bloom back in 65. The alge followed the salinity stratification in the bay being studied. The salinity areas actually changed during the course of the day, because of the tide, so the bloom would move to different areas/depths.

What were your thoughts on the article I posted in post 12? The evos acknowedge the "great dying." Of course the geological timescale is indelibly superimposed on the find, but it can be interpreted in the creation model.

Alot of the well preserved fossils in China are being found in limestone (which for so long they taught slow acclumulation of calcerous materials). Even they acknowledge the preservation was a kind of slow catastrophe (e.g. a volcano which blows for a half a million years). The evidence is stronger for episodic finds in a short period (e.g. disarticaulted fossils, soft tissue, extreme preservation) of time than for the just so explanation of preservation by bacterial biofilms. The disarticulation would argue against it. Catastrophic destruction explains the finds as they lay.

The fact that it's in limestone again argues for pre-existant lime mud that came in a slurry, and left 20,000 mixed species (land and marine fossils) in a 16 meter slab of limestone. Of course, why wasn't there a man found? There are very rational reasons. The migration of man had not taken place til after the flood at the tower of Babel, so most people were in the middle east area. People would have gone to higher ground, and the ones who were left sought other means of refuge, like trees. The few that did get buried, will be found in the middle eastern countries--like Iraq, Iran, and Turkey. How much evolutionary research is going on in these Islamic countries? Do they even allow it?

[Jeffrox]

I'd say this is unknowable, and also it is unknowable how the approx 1.214,000 terrestrial described species were supposed to fit on one boat,
especially as scientifically there are thought to be maybe between 10 million and 30 million + total species currently on earth when all are described.

Particularly when, if i interpet this right, most of these species are considered 'clean' so would have been taken in seven of each, not just two of each
http://biblia.com/books/nasb95/Ge7.2-3


So by very rough calculations, feel free to make some better ones please..

for the number of terrestrial species already described thats approx 8,500,000 individuals of described species,
and none of the individuals for the 10 to 30 million yet undescribed species.

8.500,000 ... thats 8.5 million individuals...
adding a conservative estimate of 10 million undescribed (x7)
thats 78.500,000.. or 78.5 million individuals.

and their food, and their cages, and for 40 days and 40 nights + loading and unloading time?

Big respect to Noah and his family.


Original question sorry. -> Species today populate the earth by the same mechanisms and processes
that have influenced them in the past.

and Maybe all the bugs didnt go on the ark.
Last i heard though according to a quote allegedly from the great JBS Haldane
what he could tell about the creator, was that he must have "had an inordinate fondness for beetles'

Except the bible doesn't say species, it says kinds. Which are different. There are many kinds of dog, but they also all belong to one biblical kind. (No need to bring every kind of dog, when most are interbreedable. Same goes for cats, birds, etc) So if say wolves were the original kind, then Noah would have to bring only 2 of them.

The word species is not in the bible, and the classification system of kind, is not the same.

[Gerson]

Except the bible doesn't say species, it says kinds. Which are different. There are many kinds of dog, but they also all belong to one biblical kind. (No need to bring every kind of dog, when most are interbreedable. Same goes for cats, birds, etc) So if say wolves were the original kind, then Noah would have to bring only 2 of them.

The word species is not in the bible, and the classification system of kind, is not the same.

explain me

[Stripe]

I was reading Genesis 9:10 and with every living creature that was with you—the birds, the livestock and all the wild animals, all those that came out of the ark with you—every living creature on earth.

In the 1899 American Edition

And with every living soul that is with you, as well in all birds as in cattle and beasts of the earth, that are come forth out of the ark, and in all the beasts of the earth.

and in all the beasts of the earth this part it looks like if God bless the animals of the ark AND and the others animals in the earth.

Its probably God created more animals after all he recreate all the plants around the globe right?

The planet went through a great many changes during and after the flood. One of them being the planet and it's water shifting to new levels in order to reach equilibrium.

While this was going on, plenty of pathways were made available that aren't there today. Take Google Earth, look at the oceans and imagine all the light blue areas are dry land. That's how things spread out after the flood.

[Gerson]

The planet went through a great many changes during and after the flood. One of them being the planet and it's water shifting to new levels in order to reach equilibrium.

While this was going on, plenty of pathways were made available that aren't there today. Take Google Earth, look at the oceans and imagine all the light blue areas are dry land. That's how things spread out after the flood.

It could took a few years right

[Stripe]

It could took a few years right

Probably about 4-500.