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Two Gospels Revisited...


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#21 Salsa

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:21 PM

ME,

God can add grace to works and law keeping but He can't possibly add works to grace. If you add works to grace, then it is no longer grace, but wages earned.


How does God add grace to works?

At what point does he do it?

How much of the law must be fulfilled before God adds grace?

Jesus fulfilled the law for those who believe in him. Though Jesus crucifiction and resurrection we are circumcised - perpetually, both Jew and gentile, because "circumcision is circumcision of the heart". We have also entered into the true Sabbath rest just as we also have had every "jot and tittle" of the law fulfilled for us.

#22 Teejay

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:23 PM

[quote] name='Stripe' timestamp='1331653090' post='81561']
Here's how I go about it:

Throughout all of history, men have only ever been saved by the grace of God and through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

What has necessarily changed is the instructions to us on how we should express our faith in God and acceptance of Christ. Obviously the most dramatic change was between before and after the fact of Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

But where is it that God began teaching that faith in the risen saviour was all that was now required?

Similarly, before the law was given to Moses, faith and acceptance of Christ was expressed by righteousness before God. Then the law was introduced in order to teach the standards that righteousness had to reach.

After Christ's appearance to the disciples, there was no teaching that the law was not still in effect. Thus using the gospel accounts (and anything else not by Paul) to indicate faith should be expressed through something other than adherence to the law is to invent a change where none is specified.

As soon as Paul shows up, however, we have clear teaching. The old way was that our faith was expressed through adherence to the law. The new way is that our faith is to be expressed by faith in the risen Christ. At all times, all men have always been saved by grace. But today we have a greater understanding of how that has worked.
[/quote]

Stripe, Amen!

I'm glad that somebody sees this besides me. Salvation by faith plus nothing can't be found anywhere except in Paul's writings. Paul even goes one step further and forbids circumcision. A Jew would never teach that you don't have to circmcise, Jesus said that anyone who breaks one of the LEAST of the His laws and teaches anyone to do so too, will be called least in the kingdom of God. Such is life under the gospel of circumcision.

TeeJay

#23 Salsa

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:24 PM

UD,
You could not get Peter and James to write that verse if you held a gun to their head.


So Paul was lying when he said "we who are Jews"?

#24 Salsa

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:28 PM

Salvation by faith plus nothing can't be found anywhere except in Paul's writings.TeeJay


If that was the case then the guy who was crucified with Jesus is in for a nasty surprise.

#25 Salsa

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:35 PM

Circumcision is the cutting off of the flesh or foreskin.


"A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code."

#26 MamaElephant

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:42 PM

Teejay, I find this reasoning to be completely unsound. Do you know what books I read to learn the gospel of grace that released me from my bondage to a cult?

#27 MamaElephant

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:44 PM

Please read my last posts on the other thread. I show irrefraggably that Peter wrote his letters to circumcison followers. Only Paul writes his letters to us. Only Paul writes about a grace gospel.

And we have shown you that whoever received Peter's letters also received Paul's letters. Not only did they receive them, but they were told by Peter to listen to their brother Paul.

#28 Teejay

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:44 PM

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1331695260' post='81615']
How does God add grace to works?[/quote]

UD, He did it for every man who was ever saved by law keeping and works, which includes all men saved prior to Paul's Gospel of Grace. I'm getting tired so I'm not going to give the exact reference but Peter writes that they hand to "to endure to the end." Did anyone ever make perfect? No. But they had to give it their best shot and all they had to give. It's much like you hire the neighbor boy to cut your grass. He's a teen and he is not going to do a perfect job. But he works hard, does his best, comes to you all sweaty and tired, and you judge his work, add a little grace, and pay him. But if you give him the money as gift, you can't then tell him he has to earn the gift by cutting your grass. But if a Jew saved under Peter just presumptiously decides, "what the heck. Jesus said that He was coming back soon. Where is He? I'm not going to kill myself. Who needs it?" But Peter warned that He would come as a thief in the night when we least expected and when the master returns and finds His unprofitable servant, drinking, and parting..." Of course, Jesus was talking to Jews in Israel and the coming kingdom.

[quote]At what point does he do it?[/quote]

Jesus added grace to a Jew who did his best when he died: "Well done good and faithful servant."

[quote]How much of the law must be fulfilled before God adds grace?[/quote]

Under the gospel of circumcision, the whole law must be kept--"the weightier matters without leaving the lesser undone." No law could be presumptiously ignored.

[quote]Jesus fulfilled the law for those who believe in him. Though Jesus crucifiction and resurrection we are circumcised - perpetually, both Jew and gentile, because "circumcision is circumcision of the heart". We have also entered into the true Sabbath rest just as we also have had every "jot and tittle" of the law fulfilled for us.
[/quote]

Actually, Jesus' fulfilling the whole law is not contingent on whether we believe in Him or not. But for a Jew in Israel during the time of Christ under the gospel of circumcision, circumcision was a cutting off of the flesh. Jesus Himself was physically circumcised on the eighth day. Failure to do so was a death penalty. After working with Moses for eighty years, God almost killed Moses for not circumcising his son by his Midionite wife Ziporrah. What you quote is true for us under Paul, but it was not true for a Jew 2,000 years ago under Peter. And it still is not true for the nation of Israel in their coming kingdom. Circumcision is a PERPETUAL covenant for the nation of Israel, in the thousand year kingdom and in the new heaven and in the new earth., as long as there is an Israel.

See you guys tomorrow.

TeeJay

#29 Teejay

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:47 PM

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1331695495' post='81617'] So Paul was lying when he said "we who are Jews"? [/quote]

UD, Paul was talking to converts saved under his gospel. Peter could not say that to his people and obey his Commander. Peter was given one set of orders. Paul was given a different set of orders. Neither is a liar. Both Paul and Peter are being obedient. God did not tell Peter he did not have to circumcise. He told him just the opposite.

TeeJay

#30 MamaElephant

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:51 PM

God did not tell Peter he did not have to circumcise. He told him just the opposite.

Could you provide scriptural references when you say things like this?

#31 MamaElephant

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 09:04 PM

Romans 9: 31-33 Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

#32 Stripe

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 10:46 PM

If that was the case then the guy who was crucified with Jesus is in for a nasty surprise.

All men are always saved by the grace of God and through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

What has changed (and will change again) was the means by which God said we should express our faith.

The only place where we are explicitly taught that salvation is by faith alone and through grace is in Paul's letters. That you can find other places in the bible that point to this mystery does not change the fact that, everywhere else, the law is in effect.

#33 Salsa

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:06 AM

UD, He did it for every man who was ever saved by law keeping and works, which includes all men saved prior to Paul's Gospel of Grace. I'm getting tired so I'm not going to give the exact reference but Peter writes that they hand to "to endure to the end." Did anyone ever make perfect? No. But they had to give it their best shot and all they had to give. It's much like you hire the neighbor boy to cut your grass. He's a teen and he is not going to do a perfect job. But he works hard, does his best, comes to you all sweaty and tired, and you judge his work, add a little grace, and pay him. But if you give him the money as gift, you can't then tell him he has to earn the gift by cutting your grass. But if a Jew saved under Peter just presumptiously decides, "what the heck. Jesus said that He was coming back soon. Where is He? I'm not going to kill myself. Who needs it?" But Peter warned that He would come as a thief in the night when we least expected and when the master returns and finds His unprofitable servant, drinking, and parting..." Of course, Jesus was talking to Jews in Israel and the coming kingdom.


This doesn't explain why God would get annoyed by a Jew saying "What the heck".. and so on... and not a gentile doing the same thing.

If God wiped our slates clean at the cross, then why do the Jews have to mow the lawn while the gentles sit around watching and say what the heck? Why different standards from a God who "does not show favoritism"?

But for a Jew in Israel during the time of Christ under the gospel of circumcision, circumcision was a cutting off of the flesh. Jesus Himself was physically circumcised on the eighth day. Failure to do so was a death penalty.


That's true for a Jew under the Old Covenant. But not under the new:

"By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." Heb 8:13

If, as you maintain, the Jews will be physically circumcising each other for billions and billions of years ... all the way throughout eternity, then what exactly is going to "soon disappear"?

UD, Paul was talking to converts saved under his gospel


That does not change the level of truth in what he said:

"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law"

Does the audience make any difference as to whether or not this is true? Either Jews know that a man is not justified by observing the law, or they don't.
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#34 Salsa

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:40 AM

The only place where we are explicitly taught that salvation is by faith alone and through grace is in Paul's letters.


That's not strange considering the fact that the revelation was given to Paul. "

When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church."

Paul's revelation was passed on throughout the churches, including those of the Jews, which I think mama pointed out a few posts back.

Paul taught us that in Christ there is no Jew or gentile.

Do you also think that even the Jews who are in Christ are going to be undergoing physical circumcision throughout all eternity?

If you are going to separate Jews and gentiles like this then definitely is both Jew and gentile in Christ.

However, according to Paul, the dividing line has been removed in order to create "one new man" out of the two:"

"Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)-- remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace" Eph 2:11-15

#35 Salsa

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:41 AM

Here is another verse that I think find interesting in this context:

"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." Rom 10:4

Does this verse say that Christ was the end of the law only for the gentiles?

That woudn't make much sense because the gentiles were not under the law... the Jews were.

#36 ikester7579

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:18 AM

ME,

Under the gospel of circumcision, acceptance of Jesus Christ was the first step to salvation. If the Jews could earn salvation by the law alone, then Jesus' sacrifice would not be necessary.

But although they were saved by Jesus's sacrifice for them, they still had to keep the law and do good works. God can add grace to works and law keeping but He can't possibly add works to grace. If you add works to grace, then it is no longer grace, but wages earned.

Circumcision, Sabbath keeping, and the feasts are perpetual laws for Israel. Any Jew under the gospel of circumcision who did not produce fruit was cast into the fire, so Jesus warned.

Please read my last posts on the other thread. I show irrefraggably that Peter wrote his letters to circumcison followers. Only Paul writes his letters to us. Only Paul writes about a grace gospel.

TeeJay


The reason Christ came to be our sin atonement was shown by the one instance Christ really got mad. His Father's house was turned into a den of thieves. What would be significant about that? Because they were way over charging for the animals used for sin atonement and the poor could no longer afford to have their sins atoned. And if one group is cut off the whole group gets cut off. So the way to God was cut off for everyone because of this. As for the reason Christ had to come and make a new way. Which is also the reason He got mad. Christ saw with His own eyes the very thing that the Father had to send Him to earth to correct. What He was going to have to suffer and die for.

You see once the old way was corrupt there was no way to fix it so a new way had to be made.

#37 Stripe

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 07:22 AM

That's not strange considering the fact that the revelation was given to Paul. "

Are you using this to argue against what I said? :huh:

#38 Teejay

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 07:34 AM

[quote] name='UppsalaDragby' timestamp='1331695697' post='81618']
If that was the case then the guy who was crucified with Jesus is in for a nasty surprise.
[/quote]

UD,

You're going to have to use a little bit of common Texas horse-sense. The thief on the cross was in no position to do good works, keep the law, and produce fruit. He was minutes away from death. But if at the last minute, he was pardoned and allowed to live, then he was saved under the Gospel of circumcision because as yet there was no gospel of uncircumcision. He would have to get busy and start evangelizing, visiting the sick, forgiving, and so on. And, if someone from his past asked for his forgiveness for some transgression, and the thief refused to forgive him, Jesus would put all of his sins back on him. Such is life under the covenant of circumcision.

TeeJay

#39 MamaElephant

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 07:34 AM

But where is it that God began teaching that faith in the risen saviour was all that was now required?

Seriously?

John 3:16 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Do you all have a different definition of whosoever and believeth than I have?

John 7:37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

John 4:10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

John 1:12; But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Matthew 11:28; “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."

Revelation 22:17; "Let anyone who desires drink freely from the water of life."

#40 MamaElephant

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 07:35 AM

In addition, the sermon on the mount was Christ fulfilling the law. He was showing that we are not under the law. The purpose was conviction. No one can never meet God's righteous standards. We need Him.

Romans chapters 9-11 are Paul quoting or referencing OT letters to show that God's plan was for Israel to reject their Messiah. It was not a surprise to Him.




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