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The Church, The Church, The Church


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#1 the totton linnet

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 03:50 AM

Ephesians.c.3.v.8-11 To me though I am the least of all the saints this grace was given, to announce to the gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make ALL men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created [hallelujah] all things that through THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God might now be made manifest to the principalties and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which He has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I know there is a big hoo ha over the doctrine of "little gods" and understandably so but if the detractors did not have their eyes so fastened upon the men who preach such things [and are for all that our brothers] they might look at a scripture like this and see that really what those preachers have done is mis-apply a doctrine which St. Paul set out for the whole church or the assembly and not the individual believer it's Christ in you the assembly not the individual he has in view, not to say that Christ does dwell in the hearts of each one of us, praise His name. What a power package this word is if the church would grasp it. There is no devil in hell that can stand before it.

#2 ikester7579

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 05:25 AM

At one time I was going to study this, and found I could make a case for it. Problem was, people believe so much against it that it would actually bring more debate and arguing than the osas vs no-osas deal. So basically, I did not bother.

#3 Adam Nagy

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 08:05 AM

the totton linnet,

You're a God send here. Can you expand on what you're saying some more? It's good to have the sensitive nature of a female believer interacting on this forum. I'm glad you're speaking because this topic of science has a tendency to be dominated by men but it shouldn't be that way in the church. It's good to here how God is speaking to you as you read the posts here.

#4 the totton linnet

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 08:47 AM

At one time I was going to study this, and found I could make a case for it. Problem was, people believe so much against it that it would actually bring more debate and arguing than the osas vs no-osas deal. So basically, I did not bother.

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I assume you mean the "little god" debacle, the real truth is that it is the preachers that people are so vehement against, and well those preachers are human and [ahem] they are Americans, God bless the Americans. What is needed is for those wiser counsels of which America also abounds to come along and putting aside personalities look at the doctrine in the light of the scripture and see where the balance lies for there most certainly is a balance to be struck, as indeed there is with almost any controversy.

#5 Adam Nagy

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 09:05 AM

I assume you mean the "little god" debacle, the real truth is that it is the preachers that people are so vehement against, and well those preachers are human and [ahem] they are Americans, God bless the Americans.

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Oh, are you talking about preachers claiming to being little gods? I know Benny Hinn has claimed this and so has Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland. I have been in this debate several times in the last year or so...

Is this what you're talking about?

The word "god" or "El" in the Hebrew is a funny word. It was more ambiguous in it's definition then most people realize. I think certain evangelists have confused the issue by applying the term god to themselves in a culture where the term is much more narrow today then what it was several thousand years ago. The Hebrews knew there was only one true God and creator of the universe but the term god by definition could still be applied as 'great one', 'ruler' or even 'judge'. This didn't give them a status of deity because they knew there was only one true deity. Today the term god is almost exclusively reserved for the deity of God or the false nature of gods, so-called.

Even when the Lord told Moses he would be god to Pharaoh it wasn't an elevation of Moses true position but an explanation to Moses, what Pharaoh would believe, as he witnessed God's power flow through him, since Pharaoh was a pagan.

I'm afraid people who apply the term 'little gods' to themselves are either confused or are being careless in their use of language. I'm certainly willing to discuss it though.

#6 jason78

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 09:24 AM

Could I ask a question here?

From my very basic research on the internet, I've found that El is widely believed to be the god of the Canaanites, while Elohim was the Semitic Jewish God (also called Yahweh or Jehovah). I've also read things about a god called Eli, but I think that is a different pagan god from around the same time.

Could anyone with more of an idea about this than me shed any more light on this?

#7 Adam Nagy

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 09:47 AM

From my very basic research on the internet, I've found that El is widely believed to be the god of the Canaanites, while Elohim was the Semitic Jewish God (also called Yahweh or Jehovah).  I've also read things about a god called Eli, but I think that is a different pagan god from around the same time.

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I just looked in the Strong's concordance and "El" is applied to Jehovah as well. Look at the structure of Elohim. El is right there. El is a more general term and isn't always translated god. Sometimes it's translated 'power', 'mighty', 'goodly', 'great' even 'idols'. This word must be respected for it's context and pedantic interpretations are often the cause of confusion.

Jason, does that help?

BTW, El being the god of the Canaanites fits perfectly with the meaning and communication here. Look at how Paul communicated to Athens in regard to 'the unknown god' and you'll see right away how and why 'El' would have been a very fitting term for not only correction but explanation by example.

#8 the totton linnet

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 10:24 AM

the totton linnet,

You're a God send here. Can you expand on what you're saying some more? It's good to have the sensitive nature of a female believer interacting on this forum. I'm glad you're speaking because this topic of science has a tendency to be dominated by men but it shouldn't be that way in the church. It's good to here how God is speaking to you as you read the posts here.

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Hee you are asking for a dose of British humour if you pull the ol' feminist thing out, I believe in submission to the brothers [as long as you do as we say <_< ] but I believe there is no male or female but the indwelling Christ. I have been blest by Corrie Ten Boom,s writings.
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Well but then you go all the way back to what constitutes the church, I was at a meeting where the pentecostal teacher was a'saying there were only ever 12 apostles and therefore can there not be any apostolic ministry any more, I would have left him alone but he said an awful lot more that turned my stomache -a pentecostal!! and influential-He was saying that the supposed episcopalian idea of the office of bishop being passed down.
I earwigged him "12 apostles huh?" the glorified 12 equating to 12 of the elders of the 24 mentioned in Revelations. I said "but Judas was one of the 12 and he died so there were only 11" he looked at me like I was slow but then fell straight into my trap "Judas was replaced bringing the number back up to 12." I gave him a sly smile and said "then along came St. Paul and there were 13."
For a thousand years the church was locked into this idea that there were only 12 apostles and St. Peter was the leader and since the pope was his successor only he could confer on others the ministry.
I am not saying there are any apostles today, the word simply means "sent one" that's not the point of what I'm saying, but for a thousand and more years these were the decision makers in the church, men appointed by men, they defined doctrines and what the mission of the church should be. No wonder the gifts and ministries and the manifest Presence of the Holy Spirit were lifted, and pretty soon because the word testified against them, they elevated the eucharist as the main focal point of worship. And for more than a thousand years the word was kept locked away from people in the latin tongue.
What a slow recovery the church is making in the context of the reformation and various visitations these last 500 years. But every step forward has come with a rediscovering some bible truth about the primitive church and it's message.
The message in Ephesians is closely related to the teaching of St. Paul in corinthians about the church being the body of Christ with each one of us members of His body having differing functions Christ being head.
Just what was St. Paul's vision? What was he striving for with all his might to achieve as he went from city to city to set up assemblies? and having set up such assemblies he retained no position of authority isn't that strange? we know he had the authority of apostleship but all his appeals of the most tender kind begging for submission, not to himself but to Christ, he refused to lord it over their faith.
You can guess I,ve heard all about how women are to wear veils or a hat in order to show submission to our head. Some pastors believe women shouldn't speak, St. Paul taught that if women are to pray or prophesy [preach] they are to be veiled. What about the men? They were instructed that when they pray or prophesy [preach] they are NOT to cover their heads. Why because it is an insult to Christ to whom they each one are supposed to be in submission to. Do you think God cares about hats??? it is the submission that is important, men do not usually wear hats in church but who are they in submission to? is it Christ? if they only pray and prophesy [preach] and minister as directed by the leadership then they are in submission to that leadership<<how foreign a word that is in the new testament St. Paul would not have anyone claim that he was their leader or Cephas or Apollos. Such thinking was alien to what he was doing setting up everywhere an assembly which would be the body of Christ of which Christ was the head.
Take the mystic mystical mysticism out of it, it was to be as though Christ Himself had come to Galatia, Ephesus, Rome etc not just on a flying visit but residing among the people even as He resided at Nazareth or Galilee and moving in the same ministry and power that He did then right there at Rome through His body the church as He as their Head directed.
It is no wonder to me that these evangelists who preach healing and help to the people are successful both with the needy throngs and in some measure with the Lord for that IS precisely what God yearns to do and to be, among the people ministering to them even their provisional need.
It's the devil who holds people in bondage to sickness and poverty and problems and yes of course sin. He [Satan is the prince of the power of the heavenly places] did not ought to be in the heavenly places, through the church he is to made known the manifold wisdom of God, which is "your time is up it's time for you to go" But the church gets into such a quandary about what God's will is running from one preacher man to another to tell them what God has already told them and made overwhelmingly clear in the life and ministry of His dear Son.
But it ought to be done by the whole church not just one man ministries.

#9 Adam Nagy

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 10:53 AM

You're wise beyond your years, Totten. Keep growing and stay humble God will show you many awesome things.

#10 the totton linnet

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 11:55 AM

You're wise beyond your years, Totten. Keep growing and stay humble God will show you many awesome things.

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Dear Adam [bless you] in the first 18 months that I was saved I had read the KJV 4 times cover to cover, aside from geneologies etc, as well as St. John's gospel and epistles many, many times along with Isaiah and psalms. since then I've read the rsv and the living bible through and books of the bible. Only God can truly teach it, however blest we may be by men like Spurgeon. So much discipleship is taken up with doctrines as set forth by men, which christians cling to when they should be clinging to the Lord, and if they get stumbled there as often they do they are in a mess and have a tough time of it. St James says let not many of you become teachers [oh] he wasn't american then [hehe] he says we all make many mistakes-maybe he had just copped a broadside from St. Paul.

#11 Adam Nagy

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 12:58 PM

I have to confess and repent of my own itching ears on occasion...

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