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A Most Awesome Prophecy! Thoughts?


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#1 usafjay1976

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:37 PM

I actually came across this one through Fred's website, http://www.bibleevidences.com/ . if you haven't seen it yet, what are you waiting for? Posted Image

Psalm 22: 14-18

14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.

16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.

For those that might not be familiar with the significance of this, The book of Psalm was written by King David who lived 1037BC - 967 BC. By reading those few passages, can you guess what those passages are referencing? Jesus!

Below is an except from Matthew..

Matthew 27: 27-35

27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole garrison around Him. 28 And they stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him. 29 When they had twisted a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand. And they bowed the knee before Him and mocked Him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!” 30 Then they spat on Him, and took the reed and struck Him on the head. 31 And when they had mocked Him, they took the robe off Him, put His own clothes on Him, and led Him away to be crucified.
32 Now as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name. Him they compelled to bear His cross. 33 And when they had come to a place called Golgotha, that is to say, Place of a Skull, 34 they gave Him sour wine mingled with gall to drink. But when He had tasted it, He would not drink.
35 Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet:

“They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.”


To sum up, Matthew died in 34 AD. For argument sake, let's say he was born in 1 AD. (I couldn't find what year he was born). David died in 967 BC. David would then have wrote the Psalm passage mentioned above 968 years prior to Matthew writing his passage.

I found one more thing interesting. Again, this is from Fred's website mentioned in the beginning of this post. If you read verse 16 in the Psalm, that sounds like crucifixtion, right? Crucifixtion wasn't even a method of execution when David wrote the Psalm.
Let the discussions ensue. I'd like to hear the skeptics/evolutionists thoughts but of course anyone can chime in. Posted Image

#2 jonas5877

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:33 AM

I actually came across this one through Fred's website, http://www.bibleevidences.com/ . if you haven't seen it yet, what are you waiting for? Posted Image

Psalm 22: 14-18

14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.

16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.

For those that might not be familiar with the significance of this, The book of Psalm was written by King David who lived 1037BC - 967 BC. By reading those few passages, can you guess what those passages are referencing? Jesus!

Below is an except from Matthew..

Matthew 27: 27-35

27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole garrison around Him. 28 And they stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him. 29 When they had twisted a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand. And they bowed the knee before Him and mocked Him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!” 30 Then they spat on Him, and took the reed and struck Him on the head. 31 And when they had mocked Him, they took the robe off Him, put His own clothes on Him, and led Him away to be crucified.
32 Now as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name. Him they compelled to bear His cross. 33 And when they had come to a place called Golgotha, that is to say, Place of a Skull, 34 they gave Him sour wine mingled with gall to drink. But when He had tasted it, He would not drink.
35 Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet:

“They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.”


To sum up, Matthew died in 34 AD. For argument sake, let's say he was born in 1 AD. (I couldn't find what year he was born). David died in 967 BC. David would then have wrote the Psalm passage mentioned above 968 years prior to Matthew writing his passage.

I found one more thing interesting. Again, this is from Fred's website mentioned in the beginning of this post. If you read verse 16 in the Psalm, that sounds like crucifixtion, right? Crucifixtion wasn't even a method of execution when David wrote the Psalm.
Let the discussions ensue. I'd like to hear the skeptics/evolutionists thoughts but of course anyone can chime in. Posted Image

When I read all of Psalm 22, I get the distinct impression that it is David writing about how he feels. So David is writing about himself.

There doesn't appear to be any change from the passages prior to verse 14 that would indicated that the speaker had changed. Then after verse 18 the speaker does not seem to change back. Are you saying that the whole Psalm is about Jesus?

Did the priests believe this Psalm was about the Messiah back then? If yes, what scholarly writing shows this to be true?

Does thecurrent Jewish clergy believe that Psalm 22 is about their coming messiah? If yes, what scholarly writing shows this to be true?

#3 usafjay1976

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:51 AM

When I read all of Psalm 22, I get the distinct impression that it is David writing about how he feels. So David is writing about himself.

There doesn't appear to be any change from the passages prior to verse 14 that would indicated that the speaker had changed. Then after verse 18 the speaker does not seem to change back. Are you saying that the whole Psalm is about Jesus?

Did the priests believe this Psalm was about the Messiah back then? If yes, what scholarly writing shows this to be true?

Does thecurrent Jewish clergy believe that Psalm 22 is about their coming messiah? If yes, what scholarly writing shows this to be true?




Psalm 22, verse 1 says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Matthew 27, verse 45-46 says "From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

A coincidence that this was both said by both David and Jesus?

This article might answer some of your questions. It's a short, easy read:

http://www.cbn.com/s...on_psalm22.aspx

Some info from the article below...

It even describes in detail what the people around the cross are going to be saying to the Messiah as He is dying. And it says, "All those who see me ridicule me. They shoot out the lip. They shake their heads saying, 'He trusted in the Lord. Let Him rescue him. Let Him deliver him since He delights in him.'"

Let's go to what actually happened, as recorded again in the Gospel of Matthew. Likewise, the chief priest also mocking with the scribes and elders said, "He saved others. Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel let Him come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. He trusted in God."

Remember that from Psalm 22. "He trusted in God. Let Him deliver Him now, if He will have Him. For He said, 'I am the Son of God.'" Can you imagine, a Psalmist a thousand years before it actually happened describing exactly what people are going to be saying to Jesus as He's hanging on the cross? Here is the son of David - that's one of the Messianic titles of Jesus, son of David - and here is David in Psalm 22 describing his passion, describing how people were going to mock Him.

But even more importantly, this word here, "they encircled me." The Hebrew translation is actually "crowned." And it's been translated into English "encircled." But "strong bulls of "Bashan have crowned me." This is a strong visual image of the crown of thorns. "Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus. When they had twisted a crown of thorns, they put it on His head and a reed in His hand. And they bowed the knee before Him and mocked Him, saying, 'Hail, King of the Jews.'

There is one piece of this prophecy in Psalm 22. Keep in mind also that David wrote this a thousand years before the death of Jesus, and crucifixion hadn't been even invented. So there was nothing for David to have a reference for about hands and feet being pierced, or hanging on a cross until you're so dry that you are hungry and thirsty that you cry out, 'My God. My God, why have You forsaken Me?" There was no way for him to know that soldiers were going to gamble for your clothes. The prophecy is so specific, and it happened a thousand years before the crucifixion.

How would you explain the crucifixtion reference? The casting of lots for clothes?

#4 Salsa

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:16 AM

When I read all of Psalm 22, I get the distinct impression that it is David writing about how he feels.


Jonas, that is the whole point!

A point that the apostle Peter explained was of the utmost importance as far as understanding scripture is concerned:

"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation." 2 Peter 2:20

In other words, the OT prophets had absolutely no idea exactly what they were describing from God's perspective. And for a good reason. If they knew that, then the risk would be that they would intermingle the texts they wrote with their own personal interpretations, feelings and biases. Despite the fact that they were the godliest men of their day, they were nonetheless ignorant of the exact details about what would come, and about God's plan for mankind. Whatever God has to say to mankind, it has to be clinically clean from human thinking and human motives.

There is no other literature on the face of the earth that has prophecies made by people that didn't understand their own writings. It was only when Jesus appeared on the scene that anything made sense and even then it had to be (and still has to be) revealed (Luke 24:45).

#5 jonas5877

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:07 AM

Psalm 22, verse 1 says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Matthew 27, verse 45-46 says "From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

A coincidence that this was both said by both David and Jesus?

Are you saying that Jesus did not know the scriptures? Could He have simply felt the same (which is a whole other question) as David did and used the same words because they came to mind?

A more likely explanation would be that the writer of Matthew filled in these words to make it look like the Psalm was a prophecy.

This article might answer some of your questions. It's a short, easy read:

http://www.cbn.com/s...on_psalm22.aspx

Some info from the article below...

It even describes in detail what the people around the cross are going to be saying to the Messiah as He is dying. And it says, "All those who see me ridicule me. They shoot out the lip. They shake their heads saying, 'He trusted in the Lord. Let Him rescue him. Let Him deliver him since He delights in him.'"

Let's go to what actually happened, as recorded again in the Gospel of Matthew. Likewise, the chief priest also mocking with the scribes and elders said, "He saved others. Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel let Him come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. He trusted in God."

Remember that from Psalm 22. "He trusted in God. Let Him deliver Him now, if He will have Him. For He said, 'I am the Son of God.'" Can you imagine, a Psalmist a thousand years before it actually happened describing exactly what people are going to be saying to Jesus as He's hanging on the cross? Here is the son of David - that's one of the Messianic titles of Jesus, son of David - and here is David in Psalm 22 describing his passion, describing how people were going to mock Him.

Since there is no indication that Psalm 22 was considered a prophecy by any of the Jewish priesthood, I see no reason to consider all these events as anything except the writer's imagination.

But even more importantly, this word here, "they encircled me." The Hebrew translation is actually "crowned." And it's been translated into English "encircled." But "strong bulls of "Bashan have crowned me." This is a strong visual image of the crown of thorns. "Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus. When they had twisted a crown of thorns, they put it on His head and a reed in His hand. And they bowed the knee before Him and mocked Him, saying, 'Hail, King of the Jews.'

Strong's concordance disagrees with that meaning of that Hebrew word in the context of Psalm 22. Since it can have different meanings in different circumstances, the context should dictate the meaning.

There is one piece of this prophecy in Psalm 22. Keep in mind also that David wrote this a thousand years before the death of Jesus, and crucifixion hadn't been even invented. So there was nothing for David to have a reference for about hands and feet being pierced, or hanging on a cross until you're so dry that you are hungry and thirsty that you cry out, 'My God. My God, why have You forsaken Me?" There was no way for him to know that soldiers were going to gamble for your clothes. The prophecy is so specific, and it happened a thousand years before the crucifixion.

How would you explain the crucifixtion reference? The casting of lots for clothes?

I cannot see any reason to believe that the "coincidence" is attributable to anything more than the imagination or faulty rememberance of the writer of Matthew. Couple that with the desire to make a strong case for the deity of Jesus and you can see how the shoehorning of Psalm 22 into the events he remembered can occur. I'm not saying that the writer of Matthew was lying. More likely, he was remembering that day, or remembering the stories others told him about that day, with a certain slant.

#6 jonas5877

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:10 AM

Jonas, that is the whole point! A point that the apostle Peter explained was of the utmost importance as far as understanding scripture is concerned: "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation." 2 Peter 2:20 In other words, the OT prophets had absolutely no idea exactly what they were describing from God's perspective. And for a good reason. If they knew that, then the risk would be that they would intermingle the texts they wrote with their own personal interpretations, feelings and biases. Despite the fact that they were the godliest men of their day, they were nonetheless ignorant of the exact details about what would come, and about God's plan for mankind. Whatever God has to say to mankind, it has to be clinically clean from human thinking and human motives. There is no other literature on the face of the earth that has prophecies made by people that didn't understand their own writings. It was only when Jesus appeared on the scene that anything made sense and even then it had to be (and still has to be) revealed (Luke 24:45).


So, basically, you are saying that we should take a significant event, like the establishment of the European Union, then look in the Bible to see if there are passages that can be interpreted to match that event, and then call those passages a prophecy.

Seems rather contrived to me.

#7 Salsa

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:29 AM

So, basically, you are saying that we should take a significant event, like the establishment of the European Union, then look in the Bible to see if there are passages that can be interpreted to match that event, and then call those passages a prophecy.

Seems rather contrived to me.


No that is not what I am "basically saying". Why are you trying to put words into my mouth??

#8 jonas5877

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:06 AM

No that is not what I am "basically saying". Why are you trying to put words into my mouth??

Then what are you saying?

You said that a prophecy is not revealed as a prophecy until it is fullfilled. Then how do you determine if any particular passage in the Bible is a prophecy?

#9 Salsa

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 09:33 PM

You said that a prophecy is not revealed as a prophecy until it is fullfilled.


I merely pointed out the nature of Biblical prophecy according to what the Bible itself says on the matter. If you disagree then show me, with quotes from the Bible, what you consider Biblical prophecy to be. If you can do so then maybe we will have a common ground upon which we can have a discussion. But if on the other hand you think that Bible prophecy is nothing more than a kind of fortune telling that can be used to provide complete and utter proof that God exists, or beyond any measure of doubt validates the Bible then I think you are being willfully ignorant of perhaps the most important message that God is trying to convey to mankind.

God desires faith from us, simply because he knows, as our creator, that it is a perfectly reasonable request. And that is why each and every prophecy in the Bible, despite being incredibly convincing, will never go beyond the point where we have the choice of denying or accepting it according to our own desires. It is also why the most profound prophecies are fragmented, disguised, and hidden between the lines, requiring a measure of faith to be discovered and believed. And that is exactly what you would expect given what the Bible says in its entirety concerning faith and God's will for mankind.

If you had randomly pointed out an existing country on the map today, predicting that its people would be persecuted and dispersed among the nations only to be reborn as a nation again after 2000 years, then I would probably listen to what you had to say, because no other nation on the face of the earth has EVER survived such a fate. But given the motivation, I am sure I would be able to figure out some clever explanation as to why such a thing could have happened anyway.

#10 jonas5877

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:50 AM

I merely pointed out the nature of Biblical prophecy according to what the Bible itself says on the matter. If you disagree then show me, with quotes from the Bible, what you consider Biblical prophecy to be. If you can do so then maybe we will have a common ground upon which we can have a discussion. But if on the other hand you think that Bible prophecy is nothing more than a kind of fortune telling that can be used to provide complete and utter proof that God exists, or beyond any measure of doubt validates the Bible then I think you are being willfully ignorant of perhaps the most important message that God is trying to convey to mankind.

God desires faith from us, simply because he knows, as our creator, that it is a perfectly reasonable request. And that is why each and every prophecy in the Bible, despite being incredibly convincing, will never go beyond the point where we have the choice of denying or accepting it according to our own desires. It is also why the most profound prophecies are fragmented, disguised, and hidden between the lines, requiring a measure of faith to be discovered and believed. And that is exactly what you would expect given what the Bible says in its entirety concerning faith and God's will for mankind.

I don't really understand what you are saying here. Prophecies are fragmented and hidden between the lines? They require faith to recognize them?
How do you know your faith is telling you the truth if it "finds" prophecies "disguised and hidden between the lines" after those "prophecies" have come true? Can't faith lead to error as much or more than it can to truth? The radical Islamists that blow themselves up have great faith in something you say is completely untrue. So we know that faith can lead to error. How do you then know that your faith has lead to a correct identification of a prophecy that requires reading between the lines, recognizing disguised utterances and putting together fragmented passages?

If you had randomly pointed out an existing country on the map today, predicting that its people would be persecuted and dispersed among the nations only to be reborn as a nation again after 2000 years, then I would probably listen to what you had to say, because no other nation on the face of the earth has EVER survived such a fate. But given the motivation, I am sure I would be able to figure out some clever explanation as to why such a thing could have happened anyway.

This is a different, though related, subject. However, if you are willing, could you identify the passages that are part of the prophecy for a modern Israel being established.

#11 Salsa

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 05:47 AM

I don't really understand what you are saying here. Prophecies are fragmented and hidden between the lines? They require faith to recognize them?
How do you know your faith is telling you the truth if it "finds" prophecies "disguised and hidden between the lines" after those "prophecies" have come true?


I know when my faith is telling me the truth when I realize that there is no way that any one man, or group of men, who could possibly arrange such a large body of fragments, all seemingly describing other events, telling strange obscure stories, giving acounts of history, reciting poetry and so on, into one cohesive event that would occur hundreds of years in the future. And it is just as incredible to suppose that one man could orchestrate these things in such a short timespan and at the expense of his own life.

The only thing sceptics can do is try to deny that Jesus existed, or that the things that happened during his lifetime were fictional. But even if that was the case, who in their right mind would try to pull off such a sophisticated bluff? The only earthly rewards anyone got from Christianity in those days was persecution and death.

Can't faith lead to error as much or more than it can to truth?


That depends on what you mean by faith. Biblical faith has nothing to do with how we normally define faith. The King James definition of faith is this:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

From a human perspective faith is not a "substance", but from the biblical perspective it actually is, and it also has the ability to grow or to be smothered. It is also "evidence", which stands in direct contrast with what we conceive faith to be. This is because God has the ability to implant evidence inside us that we cannot see, but that we can nevertheless discern. Genuine faith is not just a whim. It is a seed that only God can plant.

Having said that, there are countless examples of how people have been led astray by what they consider to be biblical "faith", whether they do so unintentially, or by rejecting what God says in favor of what they prefer to believe.

But given the risks involved with faith, someone who thinks they are rejecting faith for the sake of making "science" their guiding light is only fooling themself because you just won't get very far before some kind of faith is involved. Either we put our faith in mankind and mankind's ability to "self-correct" its way towards the truth, or we have faith in God.

The radical Islamists that blow themselves up have great faith in something you say is completely untrue. So we know that faith can lead to error. How do you then know that your faith has lead to a correct identification of a prophecy that requires reading between the lines, recognizing disguised utterances and putting together fragmented passages?


That's true. The fact that someone lays down his life for something does not prove anything. It takes judgement and careful discernment to sort out what is genuine and what is fake. The question I would raise is this. If someone lays down his life for something, is it just the product of a mental condition or a willpower that is stronger than we are used to dealing with, or is there something spiritual behind it?

I was raised in an occult environment so the existence of spirits that bear destructive fruits in mankind is nothing new to me. My parents taught us all about love and peace and how the occult was nothing to be afraid of and that it was replacing the outdated religions of the world, predominantly Christianity. Everything they said sounded reasonable to me and for a long time I had faith in that kind of "truth". But what exposed the spirit behind what they taught was the bad fruit that always seemed to result. If any religion lacks love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, brotherly love and so on is a false religion, and even Christians who lacks these qualities have lost sight of the fundamentals of faith and of the Spirit of Jesus.

However, if you are willing, could you identify the passages that are part of the prophecy for a modern Israel being established.


There are a number of verses that predicted a future "restored" Israel (Isaiah 41:18-20, Isaiah 27:6, Isaiah 51:3, Micah 4:1) and the regathering of its scattered people (Zechariah 8:7-8, Isaiah 43:5-6), but even without these verses one can deduce that fact that Israel would have to be restored in order for the end-times prophecies have a way of being fulfilled.

No sooner had Jesus fortold the destruction of the temple, the persection of the Jews and of their being scattered among the nations than he mentioned something that was prophecised to occur in the very temple he predicted would be destroyed. While doing so he mentioned Daniel, a prophet to whom was revealed the final outcome of his people at the end times:

"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

In other words, what Daniel wrote about concerned a distant future, a time of increasing distress, a time when people would be going "here and there" and when knowlege would be increasing. But nonetheless, if what Daniel wrote about was to going to occur at all, then there would have to have been a future Israel.

#12 Calypsis4

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:40 PM

'They pierced My hands and My feet'

David was not talking about himself. He was talking about the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

The details apply to what happened to Christ, not David.

I remember reading this prophecy for the first time about 35 yrs ago. I was amazed. Even more so at a similar prophecy in Isaiah 53.

#13 Dig4gold

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 04:42 PM

Prophecy to me can be summed up in a verse from Proverbs 25:2;
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

And yes, faith is involved on our part. To me faith is well exampled by the Priests carrying the Ark and stepping into the Jordan River. The waters did not stop flowing until they stepped in. Joshua 3
There are three ways to understand Scripture in the Jewish mindset and only one of them is literally. This is not to say that a literal interpretation does not apply but that there are deeper meanings and fulfillments in the present and future. So then a prophecy can be true for the one writing it but it can also apply to a future event. This is known as the near/far fulfillment.
The book of Daniel is very amazing to me. It was written by Daniel who served as part of the royal court of King Nebuchadnezzar, who reigned in Babylon from 605 - 562 B.C.
A copy of Daniel was included in the Dead Sea Scrolls. These scrolls were carbon dated to be about 408 BCE and 318 CE. I mention this to show that the book of Daniel is truly ancient and yet there are prophecies contained in Daniel that predict the future long after it was written.
Can anyone explain this without using the divine origin of the Scriptures?




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