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2. Samuel 24 Vs 1. Chronicles 21

alleged contradiction.

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#1 MarkForbes

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 10:53 AM

I came over this in another debate. The verses in question are 2. Samuel 24 and 1. Chronicles 21



2. Samuel 24


And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.


1. Chronicles 21


And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.


From a first look the versus seem to contradict each other. In one God is the driving force and in the other it is Satan.
Any explanations for this?

#2 Chris

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:48 PM

The way I look at things (which could be incorrect--this is just my opinion):

-- Satan is the author of temptation.

-- David is prideful, as if the credit for Israel's success belongs to him instead of God.

-- God allows Satan the chance to lure David into this prideful endeavor.

To me, it says that God is allowing David to be put through Satan's temptation. That said, I want to look deeper into these passages and either confirm or refute that notion. My one hangup is that God allowing Satan to tempt David doesn't seem (to me) to equal God personally moving David to count Israel and Judah. Could be a problem with translation.

#3 AFJ

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:59 AM

The peopl who make these accusations are ignorant of the scripure. I tend to agree with alot of the previous post. We can see a similar principle in Matthew 4:1.

--- Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.


Jesus had no sinful weakness, but David and Israel did. Jesus showed who he was through the adversity of temptation. And David showed his lack of faith, and pride, through numbering Israel. God has to work within this sinful world, and he allows us to deal with Satan. It's the same thing we see in the first chapter of Job.


6One day the angelsa came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satanb also came with them. 7The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.”
8Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
9“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10“Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
12The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.


This shows a Biblical pattern of how God achieves his purposes by allowing Satan to tempt us. He is "the accuser of the brethren, which stands before God to accuse them day and night (Rev. 12:10) Satan automatically wants to destroy us. It's only God that puts a hedge of protection around us. But sometimes, for whatever reason, he allows us to be tempted and tried, in order to bring us back, or to work character in us. Or maybe a little of both. :)

Again I leave on last scripure, to show that it's a pattern. When something is shown throughout scripture, we are able to show that it is the way thing are. The spiritual world is opened up by the visions of the prophets, so that we're not in ignorance as to what's going on with us!


Zechariah 3:1 Then the angel showed me Jeshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD. The Accuser, Satan, was there at the angel's right hand, making accusations against Jeshua.


Jeshua was a real flesh and blood high preist in the time of the rebuilding of the temple, after the return from the dispersion under Babylon and Persia. Satan, not wanting God's plan to be fulfilled, accuses even the high preist of Israel. But God makes provision for Jeshua's unworthiness if you read the next verses. Just as God has made provsion for our own unworthiness by the blood of Jesus Christ!
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#4 MarkForbes

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Posted 17 January 2012 - 04:03 AM

OK, one vers maybe looking at the bigger picture, while the other one gives more detail.

I am however not 100% satisfied with those explanations.
There were also certain events prior to this. the issue of Satan's temptation would then be like a judgment about the prior events.

#5 ikester7579

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 11:09 PM

The way I look at things (which could be incorrect--this is just my opinion):

-- Satan is the author of temptation.

-- David is prideful, as if the credit for Israel's success belongs to him instead of God.

-- God allows Satan the chance to lure David into this prideful endeavor.

To me, it says that God is allowing David to be put through Satan's temptation. That said, I want to look deeper into these passages and either confirm or refute that notion. My one hangup is that God allowing Satan to tempt David doesn't seem (to me) to equal God personally moving David to count Israel and Judah. Could be a problem with translation.


I agree. David is the apple of God's eye so it's only logical that Satan would tempt him.

#6 chipwag64

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Posted 21 January 2012 - 08:15 AM

This is a good question.
I believe that the first verse of both accounts gives the context.
In 2 Samuel 24, we see that God's purpose was using David against Israel in judgment, while in 1 Chronicles 21, Satan was opposing Israel for evil.
It's hard for us to comprehend how two opposing beings could work in one man in the same event. But the outcome is just what God wanted, showing us that He is always in control.
I believe that when God allows us to sin, it is always to bring about something good for us; whereas Satan would always seek our destruction.

#7 AFJ

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:02 AM

OK, one vers maybe looking at the bigger picture, while the other one gives more detail.

I am however not 100% satisfied with those explanations.
There were also certain events prior to this. the issue of Satan's temptation would then be like a judgment about the prior events.

Mark,
I believe if you know that God has specifically allowed Satan to do things achieve his objective, then you can reconcile the seeming contradiction. It's like the old saying, God takes what Satan intended for evil, and makes it good. He allows Satan to do things, which Satan intends against God's will, only to find that the final result is the achievment of God's will. The cross is the prime illustration of this principle.

If God allowed Satan to provoke David, then he did in effect 'move' David to number Israel. In other words, it was not the Holy Spirit, or a word from God that directed him to do so, but he allowed Satan to expose a weakness in David, that God already knew was there. It was Satan that used David's natural understanding (i.e. the philosophy of 'there is strength in numbers) to direct him to act and think in the same manner a heathen king would. This can happen to Christians, and does many times.

As far as God being angry at Israel, he had every reason to be. They were in a continuous state of rebellion from their inception. God acheived judgement against Israel by David's sin. Before David did this, his leadership was somewhat of a hedge of intercession in behalf of Israel. But his righteousness was a righteousness by faith. He had defeated the lion and the bear, and Goliath, and won many battles by faith.

The numbering of Israel was a symptom of David's temporary lapse in faith, which removed the hedge of favor which covered rebellious Israel.

#8 Stripe

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:44 AM

From a first look the versus seem to contradict each other. In one God is the driving force and in the other it is Satan.

Any explanations for this?

Some simple analysis of the logic dispels any sense of contradiction.

First - we get rid of the false attribution you applied. There is no need to equate satan's provocation with God's movement as if they are both "driving forces".

Then we simply look at the two actions and see if one necessarily denies the possibility of the other. If God made David do something, does that necessarily mean satan cannot provoke David to do the same thing?

Clearly not. End of debate.




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