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The 4Th Commandment. The Seventh Day Sabbath.


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#21 Teejay

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 09:36 AM

I don't have to get circumcised or keep festivals is because that was part of the ceremonial law, it was not on the Ten Commandments. I have not preformed great things through the Holy Spirit that just goes to show how much more I need to search for God. How many times must I repeat myself? The two laws are separate!

Tubal,

Fact: The Sabbath law was for Israel and was a perpetual covenant.

”’Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath… throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever…’” Ex. 31:16-17.

Tubal, can you agree with me and God that Sabbath law is perpetual and for the nation of Israel only?

Fact: The same God who gave Israel Sabbath law also gave Israel the law of circumcision—which is for Israel only and is perpetual?


Abraham and all his descendants had to circumcise (Gen. 17:10). God said that circumcision is “an everlasting covenant” (Gen. 17:9, 13). Now while the New Testament uses “circumcision… of the heart” (Rom. 2:29) as a metaphor, the Old Testament does so three times (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4). But such usage does not negate the requirement for Israel to obey God’s command to circumcise in either testament. God gave many commands to Israel as “perpetual statutes” which He withheld from the Body of Christ. While He made circumcision an “everlasting covenant” for Abraham and his descendants “throughout their generations” (Gen. 17:9, 13), He forbids circumcision for Christians today as a religious rite (Gal. 5:2-3; 3:10; Acts 15:24).

Tubal, can you agree with me and God that the covenant of circumcision was for Israel only and was perpetual?

Fact: He also told Israel to observe the Day of Atonement forever: “It [the Day of Atonement] is a Sabbath of solemn rest for you…. It is a statute forever” (Lev. 16:31).


Tubal, will you agree with me and God that the Feast of Atonement is for Israel only and is perpetual?

Fact: To save space, I do not want to quote all of Israel’s tithing laws. If all you are presently doing is tithing ten percent, then you are not keeping all of Israel’s tithing laws.

Challenge: Can you find any tithing laws in Paul’s writings?

Challenge: Can you name one man in the last 2,000 years who has done greater miracles than Jesus Christ? If you can’t, why can’t you?

Challenge: Can you name one man who was raised from the dead since the Peter and Paul? If you can’t, why can’t you? (Note: I’m not talking about resurrection in the sense that we will never die again.)

Challenge: You claim that if you strengthen your faith, then you will be able to do greater miracles than Jesus Christ (as He promised). But in the last 2,000 years, no one has done greater miracles than Jesus. Shouldn’t you rethink your position?

Challenge: Do you know of anyone who, through faith, has been able to drink poison and get bit by Texas Diamondbacks with immunity?

Why are you not concerned that the meat you eat was sacrificed to idols? Jesus scolded the Church at Pergamos for doing so (Rev. 2:1).






So according to you then Jesus didn't want a single Gentile to be saved because he didn't preach once to them.

No! Not according to me, but according to God and His word. Jesus said, “I have come only to the house of Israel. When He sent out His apostles to preach the gospel of the kingdom, He instructed them not to go to Gentiles or Samaritans, but only to the house of Israel. In the first chapter of Acts, He forbid them from going to any Gentiles but to Israel first and then Samaritans (half Jewish).

Jubal, this is going to shock you. Are you sitting down? Other than Peter being dragged kicking and screaming to witness to one Gentile (the centurion Cornelius), there is no Biblical record of any of the Twelve witnessing to one Gentile—not one. And God did this to show Peter than Israel was cut off as a nation and that their promised kingdom was not going to happen. Why is this true? Because the Holy Spirit fell on the Gentiles WITHOUT THEM BEING CIRCUMCISED. Up to this point in time in the life of Peter or any Jew, Gentiles had to approach God through the nation of Israel—get circumcised and keep the law.

A careful reading of the first half of the Book of Acts will reveal that Jesus’ return was contingent on Israel, as a nation, accepting their risen Messiah (see Acts 3:19-21 for example).


Again, I have said this many times. The law does not save nor count towards grace. Grace saves but if you are under grace you will keep the law because if you break the law you are removed from grace, go read the references I used from Paul last post. With all honesty and no insult intended, Paul's gospel is not a new gospel but you have distorted it as Peter said many do. Paul can not contradict the Bible, to base this doctrine solely on Paul shows that you are the one mistaken not he.

Did Paul teach that you have to get circumcised? If not, why not? Paul’s gospel is not hard to understand unless you’re a legalist—which you and Peter are.


The tree in the garden was a test, God's law is his test of obedience towards him. Question. Why did God need a test if there was no sin? Do not think that because you are saved by grace you have no need of the law because you will be lost. If there is no law there is no sin. So since you can't keep the law, rather than live by the Spirit keeping all of God's commandments you'd rather get rid of them?! There is not a single text in scripture supporting you brother TeeJay!

That “God’s law was a test of obedience” is arbitrary conjecture on your part. “Not a single text.” Let’s note the similarity between the Tree and the Law:





Serpent to Eve:
“Eat from the Tree”
Legalist to Believer:
“Keep the Law”
God: Do not eat from the tree lest
you die. Gen. 2:17
Serpent: You will not surely die.
Gen. 3:4
God: The law is a “ministry of
Death” 2 Cor. 3:7
Legalist: You will not surely die.
Serpent: The tree will open your
eyes and you will know
good and evil. Gen. 3:5
Legalist: The law will open your
eyes and you will know
good and evil.

Serpent: Eat from the tree and you
will be like God. Gen. 3:5
Legalist: Keep the law and you will
be holy like God.





The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Law



The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a ministry of death (Gen. 2:17). Partaking of it yields death. The Tree is not the only biblical entry rightly described as the ministry of death, however. Paul calls the Ten Commandments “the ministry of death.”



…the ministry of death [was] written and engraved on stones [Ten Commandments]. 2 Cor. 3:7



The Ten Commandments are the only commands in the entire Bible that are written and engraved on stone. Now compare the Tree and the law. “In the day that you partake of it, you shall die,” God warned of the Tree (Gen. 2:17). He could have warned of the law with the same words, “In the day that you partake of the law, you will surely die.” The passages below confirm this concept:



…apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. Rom. 7:8-9



And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Rom. 7:10-11



…sins which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to sin, producing death in me through [the law], so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. Rom. 7:13



After reading the nest passage, no Christian can ever again appeal to the law for help in achieving righteousness. By the same token, believers unschooled in the danger of the law are shocked by the following verse:



The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

1 Cor. 15:56



That the very existence of this verse is a surprise, and that its meaning is inexplicable to so many believers is an indictment of the teachings of today’s Christian church.



The Law Gives Passion to Our Evil Desires



Because of our flesh, the law gave passion to our evil desires:



For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law… Rom. 7:5-6



The forbidden law becomes the forbidden fruit, the prize men lie, die, and kill for. A book on the shelf goes unnoticed by a child until the parent says, “Do not touch that book. Do not even look at it.” (Perhaps we should try this with the Bible.) Prohibition creates lust (Mark 7:36; Rom. 7:5). When I was a child, the Catholic Church had a “don’t go see list” for recently released films. It made $millions for the movie industry.



Because we still wrestle with the flesh, the law still has the same effect, arousing sinful passions. Believers have not been immunized from the deleterious effects of the law, but they have been delivered from the law.



A man who recovers from food poisoning cannot now safely eat spoiled meat, for he has not become immune to the toxin. So too Christians are not to partake of the law or have fellowship with the deadly ministry of the law. Christians are simply “delivered from the law” and as such should not return to that which God has delivered them from.



The Tree Represents the Law



When Adam ate of the Tree (the offense) death came to all men. Then God gave men the law, so that which began with the Tree, the offense, “might abound” (Rom. 5:20). The law picked up where the Tree left off. In other words, you want Tree and law, I’ll give you law!



The Tree and the law serve the same purpose. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents the law. The law furthered the function of the tree. The law resumed the ministry of the Tree, namely, the ministry of death. Both the Tree and the law present an alternative to God. Men must choose between life and death, between the Tree of Life (Jesus) and the Tree of Death, between God and the law.



“The first man Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45) was not to partake of the Tree; members of the Christ, “the last Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45), are not to partake of the law [1 Cor. 15:56; Gal 3:2-3, 24-25; 1 Tim. 1:9]. Both kill as surely as God said they would.



…through one man’s offense [death] came to all men…. Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound.

Rom. 5:18, 20



The Tree is not the only entity that will give the “Knowledge of Good and Evil.”



…by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20



The knowledge of good and evil is a synonym for the law (Rom. 2:20; 3:20; 5:20; Deut. 1:39; Isa. 7:16, [8:4, 16-18]; 1 Cor. 13:8; Hos. 4:6 and Mal. 2:7). Further, the law is the “key of knowledge.” For lawyers pervert the law and thereby take away the key of knowledge. When the Pope makes a proclamation against the death penalty for murders, h*m*sexuals, adulterers, kidnappers, he is perverting the law and taking away the key of knowledge. Why should h*m*sexuals repent if they are told they are most wonderful? He also profanes God (Ezek. 13:19) “killing people who should not die and keeping people alive who should not live.” As Jesus said:



“Woe to you lawyers [popes]! For you have taken away the key of knowledge.” Luke 11:52



When God’s law is weakened or negated (no death penalty for example), we also weaken God’s greatest evangelical tool. And when people see no righteous justice on earth, it is extremely difficult for them believe in a righteous and just God. Also, the death penalty is at the heart of the gospel of Jesus. God demanded the death penalty of His Son to balance the scales of justice and pay for our sins.



The law teaches the knowledge of good and evil. The tree leads to death, and the law leads to death, never to the Promised Land. God indicated this after He gave the law, the knowledge of good and evil, to Moses and Israel. Those that were given “the knowledge of good and evil” died in the wilderness. An uncircumcised (Josh. 5:5) nation (symbolically, those not of the law) were to enter the Promised Land.



Surely not one of these men of this evil generation shall see that good land of which I swore to give to your fathers… Moreover your little ones and your children [to young to be held responsible under the law], who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

Deut. 1:35, 39



The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, that is, the law, hurts God’s people. It does not help. Adam was God’s person, and the Tree hurt him. Israel was God’s people, and the law hurt her. The day the law was given to Moses, “about three thousand men of the people fell that day” (Ex. 32:28). In symbolic contrast, the day the Spirit of Christ was given to Peter at Pentecost, “that day about three thousand souls were added” (Acts 2:41). Hence, “the letter [law] kills, but the Spirit gives life” (2 Cor. 3:6).



In 1 Corinthians 3:6, Christians often misinterpret the phrase, “The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” When Paul writes this, he does not mean that the “details” are harmful, but the “intention” is beneficial. Under the Gospel of Circumcision, it is the very details of the law that Jesus supported (Mat. 5:18) and even denounced whomever would break “one of the least” details of the law (Mat. 5:19). The letter is the law and the Spirit is God. In the very next sentence, Paul writes, “But if the ministry of death written and engraved on stones was glorious… (1 Cor. 3:7-8). The Ten Commandments are written and engraved on stone by the hand of God.



Let’s sum up:

Tree is the ministry of death. Gen. 2:17

The Law is the ministry of death. 2 Cor. 3:7



The

Do not partake of the Tree. Gen. 3:17

Do not partake of the Law. Rom. 7:6; 10:4



In the day you partake of the Tree, you will die. Gen. 2:17

In the day you partake of the Law, you will die. Rom. 7:9



By the Tree is the knowledge of sin. Gen. 3:22

By the Law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20; 7:78



The Tree brought the offense. Rom. 5:17

The Law made the offense abound. Rom. 5:20



The Tree’s curse died on the cross. Rom. 5:18-19

The Law was nailed to the cross. Col. 2:13-14, 16



The Tree of Life is in the new heaven. (Rev. 22:14), but not the Tree of Knowledge. (Ezek. 31:15; [Rev. 22:14])

The Law of the Spirit (Rom. 8:2) is in the new heaven, but not the Law of death (Rom. 8:2; 7:6).



There is no condemnation under the law if you keep it, only if you break it. Salvation is not a permanent state, you can become lost after accepting Jesus. What Paul is talking about when he says law is the ceremonial law, to think other wise is impossible. The law of the sacrifice unto God condemns but if you accept Jesus as your sacrifice you are free from that law, the ceremonial law.

Paul wrote, “Where there is no law, there is no transgression” (Rom. 4:15). Under Paul’s gospel of grace, there is no law for you to transgress. You have been “delivered from the ordinances that were against you” (unless you voluntarily put yourself back under the law). As far as your salvation not being a “permanent state”: This is true if you place yourself under Peter. If your salvation is contingent on good works and law keeping then salvation is not known until one dies. But, thank God, your apostle is Paul who teaches the complete opposite (see the following).

There would be no argument if only we could get rid of a troublesome little Jew named Saul of Tarsus (later renamed Paul, the “apostle to the Gentiles”):


Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress . . .? Yet. . . we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom. 8:35, 37-39

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. Gal. 2:20

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. . . Eph. 1:13-14

For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. 2 Tim. 1:12

Then Paul points out that we are members of Jesus’ Body, and Jesus will not deny us because then He would be denying Himself:

If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself [i.e., His Body; however, He will deny (v. 12) certain rewards (vv. 5-7) to the [i]shameful (v. 15) believer]. 2 Tim. 1:12[/i]

Other Scripture that supports security of your salvation: 1 Cor. 5:5; Gal. 5:22-23; Eph. 2:6; 4:30; Phil. 1:6; Col. 3:3, 13; 2 Tim. 1:12.

You have distorted Paul to perfection. So to make sure there is no transgression of the law we must get rid of it instead of keeping it? Does that make any sense? Can we do away with something God instituted.

No. We don’t get rid of it; we replace it. We replace the law with the Spirit of God. While the law is the forbidden fruit which “gives passion to our evil desires,” the Spirit of God should be our guide for righteous living. There was only one prohibitive law in the Garden: Do not partake of the Tree. Today there is only one law in the Body of Christ: Do not partake of the law. God does not desire a relationship with us based on law, but on love. The man who has never violated the law of adultery but lusts in his heart after his neighbors wife gets no praise from God. Why? Because he was not motivated by love for God and his wife but by the law. Make sense?


Not by being placed under the law are we slaves to sin but by committing sin.

John 8:34

Tubal, you have to decide whether you are under law or grace, Israel or the Body, Peter or Paul. The word “grace” (in the sense of salvation) can’t be found anywhere but Paul’s writings


Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.


Hebrews 12:5-8

To whom was Hebrews written? Hint: See title at the top of page: “The Epistle to the Hebrews”


You have forgotten the encouraging words that God speaks to you as his children:
“My child, pay attention when the Lord disciplines you.
Don’t give up when he corrects you.
The Lord disciplines everyone he loves.He severely disciplines everyone he accepts as his child.”
Endure your discipline. God corrects you as a father corrects his children. All children are disciplined by their fathers. If you aren’t disciplined like the other children, you aren’t part of the family.


How is he going to discipline you if there is no law?

I think it is you who without cause or authority desires to do away with God's Ten Commandments. Paul never teaches to get rid of God's law, not once. If grace is all you need then why did he kick out some church members that were not keeping God's law?
You twist Paul unto your own destruction brother!

The law is not for you, Tubal. When you accept Jesus, you have His righteousness. The law is good if one uses it lawfully (1 Tim. 1:8). If the law is not for you who are in Christ, then who is it for? See 1 Tim. 1:9-10).


On a previous thread, I tried to teach the dangers of not "rightly dividing" between Israel and the Body, Peter and Paul, law and grace. Failure to do so results in total confusion. As an example, Tubal, you don't even know if you are saved. And under the gospel of grace, if you don't know your are saved, you are not saved. I will be glad to teach you further on this, but if you've made up your mind to take the law into your bosom, then I must let you do so. But to the exent that you use the law as your motivation, to that extent, your walk with the Lord will be unfruitful.

TeeJay

#22 Tubal

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 10:25 PM

My argument is that keeping the Sabbath never gave the Jew rest. It was imposed on them because of their lack of faith. As I pointed out, the law was not a part of the Abrahamic covenant, it came at the height of the rebellion. Otherwise God would not have spoken of ANOTHER DAY. What day? Was it saturday? Sunday? No, it was "Today":

"Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his."

You just like the rest, are ignoring the fact that the weekly Sabbath was from creation not from the covenant with Abraham. From Abraham forward all ceremonies were to point to Jesus. God did not make "Today" holy. God made the seventh day holy, before sin. It is not a shadow. It was before the Jew.

I said nothing about doing whatever we feel like. How is serving in the new way by the Spirit synonymous with doing what we feel like?

Now you have been trying to make the point that part of the law no longer applies, right? So explain again what you think my strawman was.

You are constantly changing the definition of the law. Your straw man was that you, asked for a text in the Bible pointing to a place in scripture about how making the law shorter something or another, the point is it was totally irrelevant to this discussion then you say "No you can't!" While I was never trying to make that point. He is talking about the law of the flesh. You are equivocating the law of the flesh and the law of God and switching the definitions in and out as it suits you to make your point.

The Spirit does nothing of the sort. Where did you get that idea? We choose whether or not to follow the Spirit.

Trying to follow the law missuses what it was intended for - to be a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. Once we find Christ it is WRONG to try to go back and follow the law. This is made clear in Galatians.

What law are you talking about? So it's ok to keep the Sabbath to get to know Christ? That makes no sense. You are mixing and matching the definition of what law in this context means. I didn't mean it forces us to walk in the law of God. If we are living by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit then we will obey all of God's law. Where did I get that idea?
Romans 8:4

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.



The teachings of Paul ARE the teachings of Jesus. Jesus obeyed the Father. He spoke the words that were given to him and worked according to the timeplan that was given to him. The full revelation of the Gospel was handed over to Paul - the last person anyone would expect to have received it - because it was God's pleasure to do so.



No I don't think so. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;"

Again you are totally ignoring me when I say the law does not save. That is not what I am arguing. God would not go contrary to how Jesus lived, neither does Paul. You distort him. Jesus obeyed the father, and like his example so should we. Paul does not supersede Jesus nor can he change the commandments of God. Check yourself and your doctrine.
Romans 3:9-11

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

I fully agree with Paul, not a single one that understands. And by the way, if both Jew and Gentile are under sin that means they are judged by God's law, which according to Paul himself is still binding, including the Sabbath.

Historically we can prove early Christian Gentiles kept the Sabbath. There is no excuse.
http://www.cogwriter.com/sabbath.htm

I highly recommend this read, it is for your profit.

and

"no one is justified before God by the law" Gal 3:11

Trying to keep the law is not keeping the law!

I agree trying to keep the law is not keeping it. Any man that says he is sinless is also a liar. If you have broken one law you have broken them all. I simply said I try because God knows me better than I know myself and I do not want to lie, besides it is totally irrelevant to this discussion my character flaws. We are talking about God's law not me. I should not be anyone's example, only Jesus.

That's nice, but you are trying to dodge the question. Your assertion was that "if you are in Jesus you will live as he lived and keep all that he kept. The full and complete law of God".

My question is whether you do keep the full and complete law of God, not whether or not you "do your best".

I cannot say I do because if I say I do and am not without knowledge of it I am a lair. To my knowledge I am. This is irrelevant to the discussion. Please do not ask me anything in this thread that has nothing to do with the 4th commandment Sabbath and why you don't keep it, thanks. We are here to see if your not keeping it is truly based on the Bible, which I have shown many times is not.

My point is that Philip was not busy tring to follow any written code when he obeyed the Lord. He was obeying the commandments of God in a new way, not in the old way, and that is what you see repeatedly heppening throughout the account of the acts of the apostles.

Ok but he was still obeying the commandments. Jesus does not want us to keep the law like a Pharisees or a Sadducee, but how he kept it. No where does that text author the removal of the 4th commandment, try again.

You guys are not reading my posts. I find it frustrating to be repeating often what I have written the first 3 posts. This thread is very one sided. I acknowledge your arguments and refute them but you guys don't acknowledge any of the strong points I am making nor refute them. You are getting off topic and moving away from the issue. Focus on what we are discussing here. The Ten Commandments. So far no one has been able to give me a reason based on the Bible alone for not keeping the Sabbath but instead all you have done is change the definition of the law to other definitions in Paul's writings which are totally out of context it its use to try to prove that the law of God is no longer binding. None of it? Please use logic and stop with the straw men and the equivocations of definition.

I pray that your next post in this thread UppsalaDragby has some good points as to why you don't keep the Sabbath.

God bless.

#23 Tubal

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 10:38 PM

The law has nothing to do with salvation. We are still bound by the law of the land.


No matter how you live, what you do or what law you keep, you can never attain salvation through the law. Anyone who tries, curses themselves.

Where is that in the Bible? My Bible says
Revelation 22:14

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Oh look at that, I guess keeping the law is going to be important to go to heaven, who would have guessed? I'm just kidding, but you see how your logic is full of fallacies right?

No adherence to any law will ever add anything to our salvation which is complete in Jesus Christ.

Again which law are we talking about because in that case I'd have to choose. I do agree Jesus saves us from the penalty of sin with his grace and frees us from the law of the sacrifice. I don't agree that we no longer need God's law, His Ten Commandments. Watch out with how you define the law. Please be more clear next time as to avoid confusion, your own.

Then why are you teaching that the law is still active?

Because God's law still is.

Are you just talking about a personal preference?

God's law is not personal preference, though many think it is..

What are you talking about? I added nothing to the scripture I quoted. The law brings death. The power of sin is in the law. Without the law there would be no sin. These are central concepts to Paul's gospel.

Again, be careful how you define law. Paul uses another type of law to illustrate his point. Either the flesh is our master and we are under its law or God is our master and we are under His law. When he says living by the Spirit makes us free from the law of sin he is talking about the law of the flesh, which makes us sin against the Lord. How can the power of sin be the law of God? Obviously not! The law of the flesh which entices us to sin is where it gets its strength. Be very careful the definitions you use out of context.

Focus, you too are another that has made me repeat myself way too much. We are talking about the 4th commandment. You too have changed and matched the definition of the law, equivocating it to whatever suits your needs. I am talking about God's law and that alone. Now, on what base have you to not keep God's law? This is the discussion. If you can come up with an argument that I have not refuted in the first 3 points or up until now, so be it. Post it and I'll refute that too as I have been doing this whole time.

#24 Stripe

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 11:07 PM

If you're repeating yourself, perhaps it is because you are not listening. :)

#25 Tubal

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 11:39 PM

Tubal,

Fact: The Sabbath law was for Israel and was a perpetual covenant.

”’Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath… throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever…’” Ex. 31:16-17.

Tubal, can you agree with me and God that Sabbath law is perpetual and for the nation of Israel only?

Fact: The same God who gave Israel Sabbath law also gave Israel the law of circumcision—which is for Israel only and is perpetual?


Abraham and all his descendants had to circumcise (Gen. 17:10). God said that circumcision is “an everlasting covenant” (Gen. 17:9, 13). Now while the New Testament uses “circumcision… of the heart” (Rom. 2:29) as a metaphor, the Old Testament does so three times (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4). But such usage does not negate the requirement for Israel to obey God’s command to circumcise in either testament. God gave many commands to Israel as “perpetual statutes” which He withheld from the Body of Christ. While He made circumcision an “everlasting covenant” for Abraham and his descendants “throughout their generations” (Gen. 17:9, 13), He forbids circumcision for Christians today as a religious rite (Gal. 5:2-3; 3:10; Acts 15:24).

Fact: The Sabbath was instituted before any Jew ever existed.

Fact: God's law is a covenant for anyone that wants to be His. It is a covenant between Him and His people. Being a Jew does not save. We are God's people.

Fact: Circumcision was abolished very plainly in scripture but the Sabbath was not. The seventh day Sabbath is not part of the ceremonial law.

Fact: You are blurring the line between the Ten Commandments to the Ceremonial law to prove your point when I already clearly showed how God distinguished them.

Tubal, can you agree with me and God that the covenant of circumcision was for Israel only and was perpetual?

Fact: He also told Israel to observe the Day of Atonement forever: “It [the Day of Atonement] is a Sabbath of solemn rest for you…. It is a statute forever” (Lev. 16:31).

That is a ceremonial sabbath. Not creation Sabbath. Stay on task here, we are talking about creation Sabbath, the Ten Commandments. Circumcision is not perpetual because it has ended, No Jew nor Gentile needs to get circumcised because Jesus did away with that and all other ceremonies. You know this, you know I know this. Why are you asking me?

Tubal, will you agree with me and God that the Feast of Atonement is for Israel only and is perpetual?

Fact: To save space, I do not want to quote all of Israel’s tithing laws. If all you are presently doing is tithing ten percent, then you are not keeping all of Israel’s tithing laws.

Challenge: Can you find any tithing laws in Paul’s writings?

Challenge: Can you name one man in the last 2,000 years who has done greater miracles than Jesus Christ? If you can’t, why can’t you?

Challenge: Can you name one man who was raised from the dead since the Peter and Paul? If you can’t, why can’t you? (Note: I’m not talking about resurrection in the sense that we will never die again.)

Challenge: You claim that if you strengthen your faith, then you will be able to do greater miracles than Jesus Christ (as He promised). But in the last 2,000 years, no one has done greater miracles than Jesus. Shouldn’t you rethink your position?

Challenge: Do you know of anyone who, through faith, has been able to drink poison and get bit by Texas Diamondbacks with immunity?

Why are you not concerned that the meat you eat was sacrificed to idols? Jesus scolded the Church at Pergamos for doing so (Rev. 2:1).

Revelation 2:1 says no such thing, maybe you ment Revelation 2:12?
Revelation 2:12-16

And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Here a comparason is being made. Why do you twist and distort?

Anyway none of this is relevant. I am talking about the 4th commandment, that which is part of the ten. Focus. I am not going to dance with you, sit down and concentrate. Mixing and blurring the difference between the ceremonial and ten commandments will get you no where. Stop equivocating. If you have run out of arguments to defend why you do not keep the 4th commandment then stop posting because as far as I can see you are wrestling for scraps, irrelevant scraps. The thread is not called "God's law" or "Circumsicion" It is called the 4th commandment. Stay on topic.


No! Not according to me, but according to God and His word. Jesus said, “I have come only to the house of Israel. When He sent out His apostles to preach the gospel of the kingdom, He instructed them not to go to Gentiles or Samaritans, but only to the house of Israel. In the first chapter of Acts, He forbid them from going to any Gentiles but to Israel first and then Samaritans (half Jewish).

Acts 1:8

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

"uttermost part of the earth". Though this is irrelevant to the thread OP.

Jubal, this is going to shock you. Are you sitting down? Other than Peter being dragged kicking and screaming to witness to one Gentile (the centurion Cornelius), there is no Biblical record of any of the Twelve witnessing to one Gentile—not one. And God did this to show Peter than Israel was cut off as a nation and that their promised kingdom was not going to happen. Why is this true? Because the Holy Spirit fell on the Gentiles WITHOUT THEM BEING CIRCUMCISED. Up to this point in time in the life of Peter or any Jew, Gentiles had to approach God through the nation of Israel—get circumcised and keep the law.

A careful reading of the first half of the Book of Acts will reveal that Jesus’ return was contingent on Israel, as a nation, accepting their risen Messiah (see Acts 3:19-21 for example).

You are equivocating again the Ten Commandments with the Ceremonial. Stop doing this. The promised kingdom is the one prophesied by Daniel. The kingdom of God on the second coming of Jesus. This is irrelevant. Not a valid arguement to defend not keeping the Sabbath. Try again.

Did Paul teach that you have to get circumcised? If not, why not? Paul’s gospel is not hard to understand unless you’re a legalist—which you and Peter are.

Ah, classy. Circumcision is not part of the Ten commandments, nor is it a reason to stop keeping creation Sabbath. God bless.

That “God’s law was a test of obedience” is arbitrary conjecture on your part. “Not a single text.” Let’s note the similarity between the Tree and the Law:

Serpent to Eve:
“Eat from the Tree”
Legalist to Believer:
“Keep the Law”
God: Do not eat from the tree lest
you die. Gen. 2:17
Serpent: You will not surely die.
Gen. 3:4
God: The law is a “ministry of
Death” 2 Cor. 3:7
Legalist: You will not surely die.
Serpent: The tree will open your
eyes and you will know
good and evil. Gen. 3:5
Legalist: The law will open your
eyes and you will know
good and evil.

Serpent: Eat from the tree and you
will be like God. Gen. 3:5
Legalist: Keep the law and you will
be holy like God.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Law

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a ministry of death (Gen. 2:17). Partaking of it yields death. The Tree is not the only biblical entry rightly described as the ministry of death, however. Paul calls the Ten Commandments “the ministry of death.”

…the ministry of death [was] written and engraved on stones [Ten Commandments]. 2 Cor. 3:7

The tree was a test. God had a law in Eden, thou shalt not eat.
2 Corinthians 3:3-8

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Nothing about the Seventh day sabbath. Paul points us to Jesus, Jesus says if you love him keep his commandments. How much longer must I repeat myself?

The Ten Commandments are the only commands in the entire Bible that are written and engraved on stone. Now compare the Tree and the law. “In the day that you partake of it, you shall die,” God warned of the Tree (Gen. 2:17). He could have warned of the law with the same words, “In the day that you partake of the law, you will surely die.” The passages below confirm this concept:

…apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. Rom. 7:8-9

And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Rom. 7:10-11

…sins which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to sin, producing death in me through [the law], so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. Rom. 7:13

After reading the nest passage, no Christian can ever again appeal to the law for help in achieving righteousness. By the same token, believers unschooled in the danger of the law are shocked by the following verse:

The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

1 Cor. 15:56

That the very existence of this verse is a surprise, and that its meaning is inexplicable to so many believers is an indictment of the teachings of today’s Christian church.

The Law Gives Passion to Our Evil Desires

Because of our flesh, the law gave passion to our evil desires:

For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law… Rom. 7:5-6

The forbidden law becomes the forbidden fruit, the prize men lie, die, and kill for. A book on the shelf goes unnoticed by a child until the parent says, “Do not touch that book. Do not even look at it.” (Perhaps we should try this with the Bible.) Prohibition creates lust (Mark 7:36; Rom. 7:5). When I was a child, the Catholic Church had a “don’t go see list” for recently released films. It made $millions for the movie industry.

Because we still wrestle with the flesh, the law still has the same effect, arousing sinful passions. Believers have not been immunized from the deleterious effects of the law, but they have been delivered from the law.

A man who recovers from food poisoning cannot now safely eat spoiled meat, for he has not become immune to the toxin. So too Christians are not to partake of the law or have fellowship with the deadly ministry of the law. Christians are simply “delivered from the law” and as such should not return to that which God has delivered them from.

The Tree Represents the Law

When Adam ate of the Tree (the offense) death came to all men. Then God gave men the law, so that which began with the Tree, the offense, “might abound” (Rom. 5:20). The law picked up where the Tree left off. In other words, you want Tree and law, I’ll give you law!

The Tree and the law serve the same purpose. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents the law. The law furthered the function of the tree. The law resumed the ministry of the Tree, namely, the ministry of death. Both the Tree and the law present an alternative to God. Men must choose between life and death, between the Tree of Life (Jesus) and the Tree of Death, between God and the law.

“The first man Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45) was not to partake of the Tree; members of the Christ, “the last Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45), are not to partake of the law [1 Cor. 15:56; Gal 3:2-3, 24-25; 1 Tim. 1:9]. Both kill as surely as God said they would.

…through one man’s offense [death] came to all men…. Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound.

Rom. 5:18, 20

The Tree is not the only entity that will give the “Knowledge of Good and Evil.”

…by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20

The knowledge of good and evil is a synonym for the law (Rom. 2:20; 3:20; 5:20; Deut. 1:39; Isa. 7:16, [8:4, 16-18]; 1 Cor. 13:8; Hos. 4:6 and Mal. 2:7). Further, the law is the “key of knowledge.” For lawyers pervert the law and thereby take away the key of knowledge. When the Pope makes a proclamation against the death penalty for murders, h*m*sexuals, adulterers, kidnappers, he is perverting the law and taking away the key of knowledge. Why should h*m*sexuals repent if they are told they are most wonderful? He also profanes God (Ezek. 13:19) “killing people who should not die and keeping people alive who should not live.” As Jesus said:

“Woe to you lawyers [popes]! For you have taken away the key of knowledge.” Luke 11:52

When God’s law is weakened or negated (no death penalty for example), we also weaken God’s greatest evangelical tool. And when people see no righteous justice on earth, it is extremely difficult for them believe in a righteous and just God. Also, the death penalty is at the heart of the gospel of Jesus. God demanded the death penalty of His Son to balance the scales of justice and pay for our sins.

The law teaches the knowledge of good and evil. The tree leads to death, and the law leads to death, never to the Promised Land. God indicated this after He gave the law, the knowledge of good and evil, to Moses and Israel. Those that were given “the knowledge of good and evil” died in the wilderness. An uncircumcised (Josh. 5:5) nation (symbolically, those not of the law) were to enter the Promised Land.

Surely not one of these men of this evil generation shall see that good land of which I swore to give to your fathers… Moreover your little ones and your children [to young to be held responsible under the law], who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

Deut. 1:35, 39

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, that is, the law, hurts God’s people. It does not help. Adam was God’s person, and the Tree hurt him. Israel was God’s people, and the law hurt her. The day the law was given to Moses, “about three thousand men of the people fell that day” (Ex. 32:28). In symbolic contrast, the day the Spirit of Christ was given to Peter at Pentecost, “that day about three thousand souls were added” (Acts 2:41). Hence, “the letter [law] kills, but the Spirit gives life” (2 Cor. 3:6).

In 1 Corinthians 3:6, Christians often misinterpret the phrase, “The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” When Paul writes this, he does not mean that the “details” are harmful, but the “intention” is beneficial. Under the Gospel of Circumcision, it is the very details of the law that Jesus supported (Mat. 5:18) and even denounced whomever would break “one of the least” details of the law (Mat. 5:19). The letter is the law and the Spirit is God. In the very next sentence, Paul writes, “But if the ministry of death written and engraved on stones was glorious… (1 Cor. 3:7-8). The Ten Commandments are written and engraved on stone by the hand of God.

Let’s sum up:

Tree is the ministry of death. Gen. 2:17

The Law is the ministry of death. 2 Cor. 3:7



The

Do not partake of the Tree. Gen. 3:17

Do not partake of the Law. Rom. 7:6; 10:4



In the day you partake of the Tree, you will die. Gen. 2:17

In the day you partake of the Law, you will die. Rom. 7:9



By the Tree is the knowledge of sin. Gen. 3:22

By the Law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20; 7:78



The Tree brought the offense. Rom. 5:17

The Law made the offense abound. Rom. 5:20



The Tree’s curse died on the cross. Rom. 5:18-19

The Law was nailed to the cross. Col. 2:13-14, 16



The Tree of Life is in the new heaven. (Rev. 22:14), but not the Tree of Knowledge. (Ezek. 31:15; [Rev. 22:14])

The Law of the Spirit (Rom. 8:2) is in the new heaven, but not the Law of death (Rom. 8:2; 7:6).

Paul wrote, “Where there is no law, there is no transgression” (Rom. 4:15). Under Paul’s gospel of grace, there is no law for you to transgress. You have been “delivered from the ordinances that were against you” (unless you voluntarily put yourself back under the law). As far as your salvation not being a “permanent state”: This is true if you place yourself under Peter. If your salvation is contingent on good works and law keeping then salvation is not known until one dies. But, thank God, your apostle is Paul who teaches the complete opposite (see the following).

There would be no argument if only we could get rid of a troublesome little Jew named Saul of Tarsus (later renamed Paul, the “apostle to the Gentiles”):


Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress . . .? Yet. . . we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom. 8:35, 37-39

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. Gal. 2:20

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. . . Eph. 1:13-14

For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. 2 Tim. 1:12

Then Paul points out that we are members of Jesus’ Body, and Jesus will not deny us because then He would be denying Himself:

If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself [i.e., His Body; however, He will deny (v. 12) certain rewards (vv. 5-7) to the [i]shameful (v. 15) believer]. 2 Tim. 1:12[/i]

Other Scripture that supports security of your salvation: 1 Cor. 5:5; Gal. 5:22-23; Eph. 2:6; 4:30; Phil. 1:6; Col. 3:3, 13; 2 Tim. 1:12.



No. We don’t get rid of it; we replace it. We replace the law with the Spirit of God. While the law is the forbidden fruit which “gives passion to our evil desires,” the Spirit of God should be our guide for righteous living. There was only one prohibitive law in the Garden: Do not partake of the Tree. Today there is only one law in the Body of Christ: Do not partake of the law. God does not desire a relationship with us based on law, but on love. The man who has never violated the law of adultery but lusts in his heart after his neighbors wife gets no praise from God. Why? Because he was not motivated by love for God and his wife but by the law. Make sense?

Tubal, you have to decide whether you are under law or grace, Israel or the Body, Peter or Paul. The word “grace” (in the sense of salvation) can’t be found anywhere but Paul’s writings

[b][i]

The law is not for you, Tubal. When you accept Jesus, you have His righteousness. The law is good if one uses it lawfully (1 Tim. 1:8). If the law is not for you who are in Christ, then who is it for? See 1 Tim. 1:9-10).

On a previous thread, I tried to teach the dangers of not "rightly dividing" between Israel and the Body, Peter and Paul, law and grace. Failure to do so results in total confusion. As an example, Tubal, you don't even know if you are saved. And under the gospel of grace, if you don't know your are saved, you are not saved. I will be glad to teach you further on this, but if you've made up your mind to take the law into your bosom, then I must let you do so. But to the exent that you use the law as your motivation, to that extent, your walk with the Lord will be unfruitful.

TeeJay

Equivocation. One giant ball of irrelevant, entaglement of equivocation. I am not talking about the ceremonial law. The Bible is clear about the difference.

1 Timothy 1:9-10

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

There is none righteous. Therefor the law is made for all.

Walk as Jesus walked. Jesus kept the law and he is righteous. The law shows us in what we are failing. If you are not failing in anything you are still under the law.

To think you are saved and not keep the law of God is foolish, the Sabbath is to be kept now, the Sabbath will be kept in heaven. You have no reason to not keep it.
Matthew 7:21-23

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I will not repeat myself. I have already said more than enough to get you out of blindness. Stay on topic and God bless.

This thread is about the seventh day Sabbath. The 4th commandment of God. Do not talk about that which is already clearly seperated. The ceremonial law or the law of the flesh which is of sin. Do not try to remove the law completly using Paul's writings.

#26 Salsa

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 04:49 AM

You just like the rest, are ignoring the fact that the weekly Sabbath was from creation not from the covenant with Abraham. From Abraham forward all ceremonies were to point to Jesus. God did not make "Today" holy. God made the seventh day holy, before sin. It is not a shadow. It was before the Jew.


I am not ignoring that at all! What happened during creation does not have any impact on the fact that the weekly sabbath given to the Jews was a shadow. ALL shadows are modelled after some kind of reality, but they are not the realities themsleves. You should also be well aware that the shadow did not give them any rest:

"Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert, where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did.That is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.' So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness."

The true Sabbath is one of the realities in Christ, because we no longer need to follow a written, external, code of instruction, but rather an internal law that is personal and unique to each believer.

You are constantly changing the definition of the law.


I am? Where did I define the law? Aren't you the one who at one stage is claiming that the 10 command must be kept, but not the ceremonial laws, and then at another stage say that the "full and complete" law must be kept? And now you are saying that my definition is changing. What then is YOUR definition of the law??

Your straw man was that you, asked for a text in the Bible pointing to a place in scripture about how making the law shorter something or another, the point is it was totally irrelevant to this discussion then you say "No you can't


I am still struggling to find the strawman asking that question. Asking a question and then providing an answer is commonly recognized as a "rhetorical question", not a strawman. But the question was still there in case you have an answer to it that I have overlooked.

While I was never trying to make that point. He is talking about the law of the flesh. You are equivocating the law of the flesh and the law of God and switching the definitions in and out as it suits you to make your point.


Where have I been "switching definitions"?

What law are you talking about? So it's ok to keep the Sabbath to get to know Christ? That makes no sense. You are mixing and matching the definition of what law in this context means. I didn't mean it forces us to walk in the law of God. If we are living by the Spirit, the Holy Spirit then we will obey all of God's law. Where did I get that idea?


I'm talking about the law that was written in the "Book of the Law" about which scripture teaches tells us:

"Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

Rom 8:4 says nothing that equates walking after the Spirit with observing the law - it merely teaches us that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who live by faith.

I fully agree with Paul, not a single one that understands. And by the way, if both Jew and Gentile are under sin that means they are judged by God's law, which according to Paul himself is still binding, including the Sabbath.
Historically we can prove early Christian Gentiles kept the Sabbath. There is no excuse.


A couple of points here:

1) assembling together with other believers on a weekly basis is not synonymous with "keeping the sabbath". This is keeping the sabbath according to the law:

"On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates." Ex 20:10

and

"Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people." Ex 31:14

2) Paul says absolutely nothing about the sabbath being "binding". What he does is teach us that there remains a "sabbath rest" that is "another day" because the sabbath day that the Jews were trying to observe did not give them rest.

I pray that your next post in this thread UppsalaDragby has some good points as to why you don't keep the Sabbath.

The only thing required to live by faith is to have a personal relationship with God and obey the commandments that he gives to us personally.

Righteousness by faith preceded the law. Testing of faith also preceded the law. Therefore it can be concluded that observing the law was never necessary for either salvation or testing of faith.

Trying to follow a written code of law, no matter what you include or exclude, inevitably leads ut to attemp to lead our lives through human effort, and since it makes it easy to compare our righteousness with others it also causes pride.

The righteousness that comes by faith on the other hand is different. It is different because it is built on a personal relationship rather than on a form common to others. When the Lord told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac was that something that he told anyone else to do? No, it wasn't. Was it a standard to be followed "literally" by everyone who was to live by faith? No. Did it harmonize with the 10 commandments? Hardly!

Similarly, if you read Hebrews 11 and go through the list of examples of how people walked the walk of faith then you will notice that they are all different. When God works through people he does it differently in differnt people, rather than according to a predetermined form, which is probably the reason why there is no one person on that list who's faith was commended for their ability to keep the law.

We should be striving to serve God in the new way, by the Spirit and not the old way by the written code!

#27 Teejay

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 07:51 AM

Tubal posted:

Fact: The Sabbath was instituted before any Jew ever existed.


Tubal, if we are to have an honest dialogue and reach truth, you are going to have to be honest with your opponents and with yourself. Your opening thread is not about the "Sabbath." It's about Sabbath "law." Why do you now want to call it simply a Sabbath and leave off law? If we are to continue, then you can't just simply dismiss what God's word says.

Prior to the issuance of this command in the wilderness, only the creation account records anything special about the seventh day:

"And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day. . . Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made." Gen. 2:2-3

No record of any prohibition against working on the Sabbath exists until God fed Israel with manna 2,500 years after creation. A careful study reveals that 110 chapters of the Bible report this early period of human history (Genesis 2 through 50, Exodus 1-19, and Job 1:42) without a single mention of a weekly prohibition of work or of any Sabbath observance. The Bible’s first mention of the word Sabbath occurs in God’s command to Israel that forbade the collection of manna on the Sabbath (Ex. 16:23). That reference does not use the definite article. If God had said, “Tomorrow is the Sabbath,” normal grammatical rules would indicate that they had prior knowledge of the Sabbath. Rather, God omitted the definite article and used the full form, Shabbaton Shabbat kodesh “a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath” in the way of a formal introduction of this concept to Israel.

Will you admit that God gave Sabbath law to Israel and Israel only?

Will you admit that Sabbath law was not a moral law that was written on our conscience but was symbolic?


Fact: God's law is a covenant for anyone that wants to be His. It is a covenant between Him and His people. Being a Jew does not save. We are God's people.


Tubal, we are both believers, albeit you're a confused believer. You posted, "Fact: God's law is a covenant for anyone that wants to be His." This is arbitrary conjecture on your part. If you are going to simply submit your arbitrary opinion with no Scriptural references, then we may as well get off this thread and turn on the TV. What your posting here is according to Tubal. Okay! According to TeeJay, "God's law is not a covenant for anyone that [who] wants to be His." According to TeeJay, TeeJay is right and according to Tubal, Tubal is right. An arbitrary belief is not allowed in logical discourse because no truth can ever be reached.


Fact: Circumcision was abolished very plainly in scripture but the Sabbath was not. The seventh day Sabbath is not part of the ceremonial law.


Tubal, here again you present an arbitrary argument with no scriptural basis. You are now making up a religion out of whole cloth. What does God say? Let's look:

“And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off [killed] from his people; he has broken My covenant.” Gen. 17:14

And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the Lord met him [Moses] and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses feet, and said, “Surely you are a husband of blood to me!” So He let him [Moses] go. Then she said, “You are a husband of blood!”—because of the circumcision…. Ex. 4:24-26

This is My covenant which you shall keep between Me and you and YOUR DECENDANTS AFTER YOU: Every male child among you shall be circumcised" (Gen. 17:10).


Moses learned firsthand how serious God was about circumcision. After working with Moses for eighty years, God sought to kill him because he failed to circumcise his son by his Midianite wife Zipporah. And his pagan Midianite wife did not take kindly to having to cut off the foreskin of her perfectly healthy son. But had she not, God would have killed Moses. Under Moses, Israel would learn also that failure to obey some of these commands meant a death penalty, even though some laws were symbolic and not moral nor immoral. The first man to violate the Sabbath law was executed (Num. 15:33-35).

Will you admit that the covenant of circmcision was for Israel only?

Will you admit that God's circumcision covenant is perpetual for Israel?

If God says it's perpetual, by what authority does Tubal declare it not perpetual? Please answer.


Fact: You are blurring the line between the Ten Commandments to the Ceremonial law to prove your point when I already clearly showed how God distinguished them.




Stripe posted: No matter how you live, what you do or what law you keep, you can never attain salvation through the law. Anyone who tries, curses themselves.

Tubal replied: Where is that in the Bible? My Bible says Revelation 22:14

Tubal, this is why you're confused. Revelation is written to Israel and not to you.

I differ in that I believe that all on this thread are aware of the difference between symbolic and moral law. Symbolic law was for Israel only and pointed to Jesus Christ. Moral law was written on our hearts. No one had to tell Cain that he had sinned when he was confronted by God for killing his brother. But Sabbath law was not written on our hearts. Until God gave His Sabbath law to Israel, no man's conscience was ever bothered if he worked on the Sabbath, because there was no Sabbath law (symbolic law until God gave it to Israel).


And you have given us a reason for why God gave the Sabbath law--according to Tubal. Let's look at the real reason God gave His Sabbath law:

God gave the sign of the Sabbath so that Israel will know that the LORD has sanctified, that is, has set them apart, from the people. God taught this same truth through dietary symbolism:

“I am the LORD your God who has separated you from the peoples. You shall therefore distinguish between clean beasts and unclean. . . which I have separated from you as unclean. And you shall be holy to Me, for I the LORD am holy, and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be Mine.” Lev. 20:24-26

Many of the Sabbath passages intertwine two truths. One, the Sabbath is a sign. Two, the Sabbath is for Israel.

“Moreover I also gave them [Israel, vv. 5, 9, 13] My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me. . . Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me. . .” Ezek. 20:12-13
Tubal, let me know if you are going to continue to give arbitrary arguments, dismissing what God says about a matter. If so, then there is no further reason to dialogue.

TeeJay

#28 Tubal

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 06:23 PM

The true Sabbath is one of the realities in Christ, because we no longer need to follow a written, external, code of instruction, but rather an internal law that is personal and unique to each believer.

So God has no standard he wants us to follow? Just do whatever each one of us thinks is right?

Tubal, this is why you're confused. Revelation is written to Israel and not to you.

You have no scripture on which to assume the book of Revelation was written only for the Jew. What of the other books for that matter?
You seem to prefer the writings of Paul, why don't you take a pair of scissors and cut off what you don't need and keep what is convenient. You all have a religion based on Paul, and I say religion not Christianity. Because those that are called Christians follow Jesus and live as he lived but it is clear who you all follow and distort.

Gentlemen, I am at a loss for words.
Posted Image
I'm sorry, there seems to be nothing more I can do for either of you. The level of entrenched confusion present in both of your minds is far beyond what I can comprehend or contend with. If you truly believe that the Sabbath, the 4th commandment is no longer binding to God's people then so be it. Though I think it is clear what the Bible says. The law that was written on tablets of stone is now written on flesh tablets in the heart of those that walk according to the Spirit. Not a single law less and not a law more. So that we may live according to the law of God not according to the law of flesh. Keep the law because you love Jesus not because it saves. The love of Jesus is what saves not the law.

I have nothing else to say other than what I have already said in this thread. God is clear on what his commandments are and who is to keep them. Remember this. The majority is always wrong. As in the days of Noah so will the coming of the Son of Man be. May God have mercy on us on that day. Until you all continue distorting and equivocating.

#29 Teejay

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 06:55 PM

[quote] name='Tubal' timestamp='1336526638' post='83818']
So God has no standard he wants us to follow? Just do whatever each one of us thinks is right?

You have no scripture on which to assume the book of Revelation was written only for the Jew. What of the other books for that matter?
You seem to prefer the writings of Paul, why don't you take a pair of scissors and cut off what you don't need and keep what is convenient. You all have a religion based on Paul, and I say religion not Christianity. Because those that are called Christians follow Jesus and live as he lived but it is clear who you all follow and distort.

Gentlemen, I am at a loss for words.
Posted Image
I'm sorry, there seems to be nothing more I can do for either of you. The level of entrenched confusion present in both of your minds is far beyond what I can comprehend or contend with. If you truly believe that the Sabbath, the 4th commandment is no longer binding to God's people then so be it. Though I think it is clear what the Bible says. The law that was written on tablets of stone is now written on flesh tablets in the heart of those that walk according to the Spirit. Not a single law less and not a law more. So that we may live according to the law of God not according to the law of flesh. Keep the law because you love Jesus not because it saves. The love of Jesus is what saves not the law.

I have nothing else to say other than what I have already said in this thread. God is clear on what his commandments are and who is to keep them. Remember this. The majority is always wrong. As in the days of Noah so will the coming of the Son of Man be. May God have mercy on us on that day. Until you all continue distorting and equivocating.
[/quote]

Tubal, would you like me to show you, with Scripture, that Revelation is for and to Israel? I can. But God's word, so far, has been unable to put a dent in armor of your worldview.

When you started this thread, I don't think you had given this subject enough study or thought. And I, UD, and Stripe have set your worldview on this subject back on its head. But please understand that it is not us you disagree with; it's God and His word because the Scripture I presented to you refutes your argument.

It's okay to be wrong. We all are at one time or another. But it would be nice if you would humble yourself and admit you were wrong. Only then can I teach you how Paul's gospel of grace works and more importantly, how to know that you are saved.

Again, would you like me to show you that Revelation is written to Israel?

TeeJay

#30 Tubal

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 07:46 PM

Tubal, would you like me to show you, with Scripture, that Revelation is for and to Israel? I can. But God's word, so far, has been unable to put a dent in armor of your worldview.

When you started this thread, I don't think you had given this subject enough study or thought. And I, UD, and Stripe have set your worldview on this subject back on its head. But please understand that it is not us you disagree with; it's God and His word because the Scripture I presented to you refutes your argument.

It's okay to be wrong. We all are at one time or another. But it would be nice if you would humble yourself and admit you were wrong. Only then can I teach you how Paul's gospel of grace works and more importantly, how to know that you are saved.

Again, would you like me to show you that Revelation is written to Israel?

TeeJay

If it brings you pleasure to think you have the truth then so be it but you have not defeated me, not even close. All you and them like you have done is repeat like a parrot your arguments about circumcision and being blind freely to the knowledge that it is part of the ceremonial law and to use the equivocation of saying "ah but it is a perpetual sign" is nonsense. Using the "Spirit" to do away with one commandment among ten for no reason what so ever. With this thread I thought we would discuss but never, no not even once has anyone shown me any sort of acknowledgment of my arguments. This whole discussion has been one sided. I have never seen the mental gymnastics you 3 are capable of, my mind is younger and it isn't even that flexible. As for Revelation, do as you please, I personally went back and read the whole book of Revelation when you first made this claim but if you feel in your heart you have something to share then do so. And as for this thread, when people start reading my posts and actually thinking before repeating the same worn out arguments I have debunked since ages past. Then I will post again on this topic of the law of God.

#31 Fred Williams

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 08:11 PM

All, turns out Tubal was an atheist troll and has been banned. Sorry we did not spot this loser sooner.

Fred

#32 Calypsis4

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:45 AM

All, turns out Tubal was an atheist troll and has been banned. Sorry we did not spot this loser sooner.

Fred


Wow. An 'atheist troll;'. What did I miss, Mr. Williams?

I am glad, however, that as an ex-SDA, I did not engage him in debate for I knew he would insist that the rest of us come under the curse of the law like he is/was...then again if he is an atheist trickster I must have overlooked something.

Best wishes.

#33 Teejay

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 03:49 PM

[quote] name='Fred Williams' timestamp='1336533115' post='83823']
All, turns out Tubal was an atheist troll and has been banned. Sorry we did not spot this loser sooner.

Fred
[/quote]

Fred,

I must ask how you concluded he was an "atheist troll"? I judged him to be a confused believer who had unwittingly put himself under the law. Just recently, my wife and I had lunch with an acquaintance who was a Seventh Day Adventist. She and her church believed we must keep the whole law--the feasts, dietary laws, clothing, etc. No amount of Scripture would dissuade her that she was "saved by grace and not by works lest any man should boast."

Recall our recent argument for two gospels. What we have on this thread and my wife's friend is a direct result of the failure of Christians to understand this concept--that Israel was the "people of the circumcision" or law and that the Paul, and no one but Paul, introduced a gospel of grace plus nothing. Even if you believe in Paul's gospel of grace, failure to understand that Israel was under the law results in confusion.

"Indeed I, Paul, say to you [Jews and Gentiles] that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law" (Gal. 5:2-3). What Christians do not understand is that circumcision is key to understanding law and grace. Circumcision is the representation of the whole law--symbolic and moral. One can substitute any law for "circumcision" in the above passages. Paul could just as easily have written, "... if you speak in tongues, get circumcised, get baptized, keep the Sabbath, keep the dietary laws, observed the feasts, tithe faithfully, give to the poor, visit the sick, visit the prisoners, fast, or any work or law, then Christ will profit you nothing." Under the gospel of grace, one's motivation to do good or keep the law must be motivated by love for God and love for his neighbor. Day by Day, hour by hour, we must"walk in the Spirit and we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh [law]". And, most importantly, we must "rightly divide" between Israel and the Body of Christ, between Peter and Paul, between law and grace.

TeeJay

#34 Teejay

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 04:17 PM

[quote] name='Tubal' timestamp='1336531600' post='83821']
If it brings you pleasure to think you have the truth then so be it but you have not defeated me, not even close. All you and them like you have done is repeat like a parrot your arguments about circumcision and being blind freely to the knowledge that it is part of the ceremonial law and to use the equivocation of saying "ah but it is a perpetual sign" is nonsense. Using the "Spirit" to do away with one commandment among ten for no reason what so ever. With this thread I thought we would discuss but never, no not even once has anyone shown me any sort of acknowledgment of my arguments. This whole discussion has been one sided. I have never seen the mental gymnastics you 3 are capable of, my mind is younger and it isn't even that flexible. As for Revelation, do as you please, I personally went back and read the whole book of Revelation when you first made this claim but if you feel in your heart you have something to share then do so. And as for this thread, when people start reading my posts and actually thinking before repeating the same worn out arguments I have debunked since ages past. Then I will post again on this topic of the law of God.
[/quote]

At the start of the Iraq invasion, there was an Iraqi who would appear in TV and announce that "we have the Americans on the run and victory is assured for the people of Iraq." He would make these annoncements as the American soldiers were toppling Saddam's statue. I had wondered what happend to him? Tubal's announcement of victory in this debate sounds familiar.

Tubal said that he had read all of Revelation and saw no evidence that it was written to Jews. John was a Jew. Revelation is all about the coming Tribulation. The Tribulation is not for the Body of Christ; it's for Israel. This alone should tell us something.

Jesus talking to the Ephesus church: "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of THOSE WHO SAY THEY ARE JEWS AND ARE NOT, BUT ARE A SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN" (Rev. 2:9). Does this sound like Jesus is talking to Gentiles?

Jesus talking to the Sardis church: "Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say THEY ARE JEWS AND ARE NOT, but lie--indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you" (Rev. 3:9). Does this sound like Jesus is talking to Gentiles?

TeeJay

#35 Calypsis4

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 04:26 PM

Teejay

I must ask how you concluded he was an "atheist troll"? I judged him to be a confused believer who had unwittingly put himself under the law.


Well, now I am very curious about this matter.

And, most importantly, we must "rightly divide" between Israel and the Body of Christ, between Peter and Paul, between law and grace.

TeeJay


Between Peter and Paul?

#36 Teejay

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:11 PM

='Calypsis4' timestamp='1336605965' post='83851']
Teejay


Well, now I am very curious about this matter.


Cal, Fred may not be at liberty to divulge how he knows. Remember, he is a computer engineer and he may be able to tap into our computers? (if he taps into mine, he will die of boredom.)

Between Peter and Paul?


Yes, Peter and Paul. See Galatians 2:7-9. Peter was born a Jew, circumcised on the eighth day, and was saved under the gospel of circumcision or the law. Many Christians think that after the Cross, the Jews were not under the gospel of circumcision or law. Nothing could be further from the truth. In warning of the coming Tribulation, Jesus cautioned Israel (the Twelve): "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath" (Mat. 24:20). Note that what Jesus was cautioning was after the Cross. In Revelation 2:14 (after the Cross), Jesus scolds the Pergamos church for eating meat sacrificed to idols--just the opposite of what Paul teaches (1 Cor. 8).

Note that Paul warned that if one was saved under the gospel of circmcision (Peter), he had to stay under that gospel. And if one was saved under the gospel of grace (Paul), he was not to put himself under the law (Peter): "Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised" (1 Cor. 7:18). "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:29).

Also recall that Israel was cut off for unbelief. Although Jews like Peter did not lose their salvation, the promised kingdom for Israel upon Jesus' return was temporarily put on hold and has been on hold for over 2,000 years. Prior to the Tribulation for Israel described in Revelation, the Body of Christ, of Whom you and I are members, will be raptured. Israel will then go through their tribulation at the end of which Jesus will return to His people Israel, set up His kingdom, sit on King David's throne in Jerusalem, Judge nations (put the sheep on His right and the goats on His left), etc. Israel will have a thousand year kingdom at the end of which God will create a new heaven and a new earth. Israel citizenship is on earth (Mat. 5:5; 6:10; Rev. 5:10; Deut. 30:-5; Ps. 2:8; 25:13; 37:9, 11, 22; Prov. 2:21-22, 10:30; James 5:7-8). Our citizenship is heavenly (Phil. 3:20; 2:10; Eph. 1:10; 3:15; Col. 1:5, 20; 3:1, 2; 2 Cor. 5:1; 2 Tim. 4:18).

I pray this clears up things a bit.

TeeJay

#37 Calypsis4

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:46 PM

Cal, Fred may not be at liberty to divulge how he knows. Remember, he is a computer engineer and he may be able to tap into our computers? (if he taps into mine, he will die of boredom.)



Yes, Peter and Paul. See Galatians 2:7-9. Peter was born a Jew, circumcised on the eighth day, and was saved under the gospel of circumcision or the law. Many Christians think that after the Cross, the Jews were not under the gospel of circumcision or law. Nothing could be further from the truth. In warning of the coming Tribulation, Jesus cautioned Israel (the Twelve): "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath" (Mat. 24:20). Note that what Jesus was cautioning was after the Cross. In Revelation 2:14 (after the Cross), Jesus scolds the Pergamos church for eating meat sacrificed to idols--just the opposite of what Paul teaches (1 Cor. 8).

Note that Paul warned that if one was saved under the gospel of circmcision (Peter), he had to stay under that gospel. And if one was saved under the gospel of grace (Paul), he was not to put himself under the law (Peter): "Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised" (1 Cor. 7:18). "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:29).

Also recall that Israel was cut off for unbelief. Although Jews like Peter did not lose their salvation, the promised kingdom for Israel upon Jesus' return was temporarily put on hold and has been on hold for over 2,000 years. Prior to the Tribulation for Israel described in Revelation, the Body of Christ, of Whom you and I are members, will be raptured. Israel will then go through their tribulation at the end of which Jesus will return to His people Israel, set up His kingdom, sit on King David's throne in Jerusalem, Judge nations (put the sheep on His right and the goats on His left), etc. Israel will have a thousand year kingdom at the end of which God will create a new heaven and a new earth. Israel citizenship is on earth (Mat. 5:5; 6:10; Rev. 5:10; Deut. 30:-5; Ps. 2:8; 25:13; 37:9, 11, 22; Prov. 2:21-22, 10:30; James 5:7-8). Our citizenship is heavenly (Phil. 3:20; 2:10; Eph. 1:10; 3:15; Col. 1:5, 20; 3:1, 2; 2 Cor. 5:1; 2 Tim. 4:18).

I pray this clears up things a bit.

TeeJay


I agree with what Mr. Williams did but I don't know all the facts. I think he knows what he is doing. At bottom line he really isn't obligated to tell us.

Concerning the gospel, I disagree. There is only ONE gospel...the gospel of Jesus Christ. All sinners are saved the same way. You're merely talking about different applications as it relates to Jews who choose voluntarily to live & worship much the way they did before they placed faith in Jesus Christ as opposed to those who chose not to. But Gentiles are in no wise obligated to perform the rituals and or traditions of Israel as it is revealed in the Law.

Sure, the matter is clear to me: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, (that includes Peter) or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:6-8

Then Paul further emphasized it:

"As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

There is just one and never has been another. It is called by different names in different places but it is still the same.

"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;"

...is true for certain...but this only means that to Peters call the emphasis was reaching the Jews and to Pauls it was reaching the Gentiles. That's all.

Both Peter and Paul taught 'One Lord, one faith, one baptism' and both preached salvation by grace through faith in Christ. I Peter 1:5--Eph. 2:8-9.

But I won't make any further comment here no matter how you reply because I didn't come to Evol. Fairytale to argue theology with those I agree with on creation.
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#38 Teejay

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 04:32 AM

Cal,

If you want to discuss this further, we can go to the two gospels thread. You are correct in that today there is one gospel of grace for Israel and the Body--because God cut off Israel back in the Book of Acts and took Paul, bypassed Israel, and went directly to the Gentiles with a different dispensation--grace instead of law. But the "nation" of Israel will always be under the gospel of circumcision because they are the "people of the circumcision." They will be circumcising, keeping feasts, and Sabbaths in their thousand year kingdom and in the new heaven and the new earth.

I suggest you read what I posted on the Two Gospels thread.

TeeJay

#39 Calypsis4

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 06:03 AM

Cal,

If you want to discuss this further, we can go to the two gospels thread. You are correct in that today there is one gospel of grace for Israel and the Body--because God cut off Israel back in the Book of Acts and took Paul, bypassed Israel, and went directly to the Gentiles with a different dispensation--grace instead of law. But the "nation" of Israel will always be under the gospel of circumcision because they are the "people of the circumcision." They will be circumcising, keeping feasts, and Sabbaths in their thousand year kingdom and in the new heaven and the new earth.

I suggest you read what I posted on the Two Gospels thread.

TeeJay


Good for them. But that's then and this is now.

No.

#40 Fred Williams

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 06:17 AM

I'd rather not divulge our trade secrets on how we can sometimes spot posers, just know that it isn't based on speculation or best guess. FYI, we had one guy several years ago who went to great lengths to pretend to be a creationist, and eventually one of the Admins at that time signed him up as a moderator! Ikester was suspicious from the beginning and warned me about him, but I rejected his suspicion because I didn't think someone would go to so much bother on such a small corner of the net as ours. Boy was I wrong, as a smoking gun on this guy was eventually uncovered that proved beyond any shadow of doubt he was an evolutionist (and likely homosexual). Similar to Tubal, his posts revealed he might be a counterfeit, but for me I can't rely on mere speculation.

One way to find out how we figure some of these bozos out is to volunteer to be a moderator. :)

Fred




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