19 replies to this topic

[Fred Williams]

This may be the most prevalent of Bible clichés, if not the most controversial and the one likely to cause fellow Christians to seek me out and stone me. In defending unconditional forgiveness, one verse fellow Christians often try to cite by memory is:

Luke 17:3-4 If your brother sins against you, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, ' you shall forgive him."

The verse above appears in 90% of Christian's Bibles. However, it appears differently in the Bible I carry:

Luke 17:3-4 If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."

OK, I'm being a little facetious. The point is, the highlighted words above might as well not be in the Bible of the vast majority of Christians, because they read right past them as if they don't exist. When shown this, they will almost instantaneously object and still claim you should always forgive. "These plain words just can't be there, there must be an explanation" they think to themselves. You may cite the Lord's prayer or some other "forgive" verse, but just because it doesn't include the repent qualifier doesn't negate the qualifier, any more than eye witness accounts where each leaves out some detail doesn't mean there are conflicting accounts. There are verses without the repent qualifier, and there are verses with it. Therefore, the only way to reconcile the two is that "forgive if they repent" must be the correct version since it accommodates ALL the forgiveness verses. Forgive unconditionally does NOT accommodate the forgive with repent qualifier verses. Unfortunately there are scores of theologians who teach unconditional repentance, such as the popular Philip Yancy, and such teaching does more harm than good, as any unscriptural teaching does.

It also makes very good reasonable sense. How many times have you heard a fellow Christian, perhaps even yourself, say, "I know I'm supposed to forgive this person, but it is very very hard". When is it hard for us to forgive? When someone has wronged us and they are completely unrepentant of it! It makes no sense to forgive them, and even if we try, and convince ourselves we have, in our heart and mind we know we really haven't. If someone says their sorry or makes an amends, it's very easy to forgive, and we should without hesitation! Also, how does "forgiving" an unrepentant person do that person any good? Lack of accountability encourages further bad behavior.

Now I am not saying to harbor some bitter root if a person doesn't repent of some wrong they did you, but you are not required to forgive them! If you don't know if they have repented, then err on the side of forgiveness. I think this is why some verses don't contain the qualifer, Christ doesn't want us to abuse the repent qualifier. Sometimes a repentance or apology may not be explicit, but it may be implied by behavior of the person, so again, err on the side of forgiveness if you don't know for sure.

Finally, if you are thinking that we should forgive as Christ forgave, then I'm glad you are thinking this. Please do apply this standard. Ask yourself, does Christ forgive the unrepentant?

Fred

[jason]

This may be the most prevalent of Bible clichés, if not the most controversial and the one likely to cause fellow Christians to seek me out and stone me.   In defending unconditional forgiveness, one verse fellow Christians often try to cite by memory is:

Luke 17:3-4 If your brother sins against you, forgive him.  And if he sins against you seven times in a day, ' you shall forgive him." 

The verse above appears in 90% of Christian's Bibles. However, it appears differently in the Bible I carry:

Luke 17:3-4 If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.  And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him." 

OK, I'm being a little facetious. The point is, the highlighted words above might as well not be in the Bible of the vast majority of Christians, because they read right past them as if they don't exist. When shown this, they will almost instantaneously object and still claim you should always forgive. "These plain words just can't be there, there must be an explanation" they think to themselves. You may cite the Lord's prayer or some other "forgive" verse, but just because it doesn't include the repent qualifier doesn't negate the qualifier, any more than eye witness accounts where each leaves out some detail doesn't mean there are conflicting accounts. There are verses without the repent qualifier, and there are verses with it. Therefore, the only way to reconcile the two is that "forgive if they repent" must be the correct version since it accommodates ALL the forgiveness verses. Forgive unconditionally does NOT accommodate the forgive with repent qualifier verses.  Unfortunately there are scores of theologians who teach unconditional repentance, such as the popular Philip Yancy, and such teaching does more harm than good, as any unscriptural teaching does.

It also makes very good reasonable sense. How many times have you heard a fellow Christian, perhaps even yourself, say, "I know I'm supposed to forgive this person, but it is very very hard". When is it hard for us to forgive? When someone has wronged us and they are completely unrepentant of it! It makes no sense to forgive them, and even if we try, and convince ourselves we have, in our heart and mind we know we really haven't.  If someone says their sorry or makes an amends, it's very easy to forgive, and we should without hesitation! Also, how does "forgiving" an unrepentant person do that person any good? Lack of accountability encourages further bad behavior.

Now I am not saying to harbor some bitter root if a person doesn't repent of some wrong they did you, but you are not required to forgive them! If you don't know if they have repented, then err on the side of forgiveness. I think this is why some verses don't contain the qualifer, Christ doesn't want us to abuse the repent qualifier. Sometimes a repentance or apology may not be explicit, but it may be implied by behavior of the person, so again, err on the side of forgiveness if you don't know for sure.

Finally, if you are thinking that we should forgive as Christ forgave, then I'm glad you are thinking this. Please do apply this standard. Ask yourself, does Christ forgive the unrepentant?

Fred

commone sense. i was assaulted by a man in the army. i was groped and he was drunk and i was asleep. i thought it was a dream. i dont hate this man but i dont like him. if it came to charges and i could, then i would ensure that full ucmj would be reigning down on him.

but i would still pray for him.

[Teejay]

=jason,May 31 2011, 05:53 AM]
commone sense. i was assaulted by a man in the army. i was groped and he was drunk and i was asleep.  i thought it was a dream. i dont hate this man but i dont like him. if it came to charges and i could, then i would ensure that full ucmj would be reigning down on him.

but i would still pray for him.

Jason,

It's okay to rebuke him. It's okay to hate him. I hate the unrepentant H*mos*xual child molester with righteousness indignation. In order for you to rebuke and hate him, you must (dare I say it) judge him. It's okay for you to do this.

Now if you were to meet him, and he is unrepentant, you should rebuke him harshly. And it's okay to rebuke him publicly. Paul rebuked Peter publicly and to his face. And you should warm him that unless he repents, you will sit in judgment of him. On the other hand, if he is repentant and asks you to forgive him, then you must forgive him (as Jesus commands). In his repentant mode, this is a good time to warm him that while you will certainly forgive him of the wrong he has done to you, he must realize that ultimate forgiveness must come from God. And this requires him to accept Jesus Christ. "No man comes to the Father except through Me," Jesus warned. Perhaps this is one of the reasons Jesus Christ did not want us friviously forgiving the unrepentant and squandering an opportunity to witness?

You are correct that you can't take vengeance on him yourself. As Paul points out, the government is God's minister to bring vengeance and wrath on evil doers." God has not granted authority to individuals to take individual vengeance.

False Bible beliefs have bad consequences. I was teaching a Bible study on forgiveness in Colorado. After the class, a young man came to me and related that a former business partner had stole $10,000 from him. His pastor told him that he had to forgive this unrepentant thief. But he related to me that try as he may, he could not really do it in his heart. He was guilt ridden for not being able to forgive. I asked him if the man had returned the money and asked forgiveness. He had not. This young man was elated to realize that he did not have to forgive unless there was repentance. Ironically, if a member of his pastor's church had stolen money from the collection box, the pastor would not hesitate to kick him out of the church.

TeeJay

[jason]

Jason,

It's okay to rebuke him.  It's okay to hate him.  I hate the unrepentant H*mos*xual child molester with righteousness indignation.  In order for you to rebuke and hate him, you must (dare I say it) judge him.  It's okay for you to do this.

Now if you were to meet him, and he is unrepentant, you should rebuke him harshly.  And it's okay to rebuke him publicly.  Paul rebuked Peter publicly and to his face.  And you should warm him that unless he repents, you will sit in judgment of him.  On the other hand, if he is repentant and asks you to forgive him, then you must forgive him (as Jesus commands).  In his repentant mode, this is a good time to warm him that while you will certainly forgive him of the wrong he has done to you, he must realize that ultimate forgiveness must come from God.  And this requires him to accept Jesus Christ.  "No man comes to the Father except through Me," Jesus warned.  Perhaps this is one of the reasons Jesus Christ did not want us friviously forgiving the unrepentant and squandering an opportunity to witness?

You are correct that you can't take vengeance on him yourself.  As Paul points out, the government is God's minister to bring vengeance and wrath on evil doers."  God has not granted authority to individuals to take individual vengeance.

False Bible beliefs have bad consequences.  I was teaching a Bible study on forgiveness in Colorado.  After the class, a young man came to me and related that a former business partner had stole $10,000 from him.  His pastor told him that he had to forgive this unrepentant thief.  But he related to me that try as he may, he could not really do it in his heart.  He was guilt ridden for not being able to forgive.  I asked him if the man had returned the money and asked forgiveness.  He had not.  This young man was elated to realize that he did not have to forgive unless there was repentance.  Ironically, if a member of his pastor's church had stolen money from the collection box, the pastor would not hesitate to kick him out of the church.

TeeJay

that was back in 1992 when that occured to me. he was a Bis*xual male and i was but i didnt act on that then, that is another day and time to tell.


i dont know what i would say to him. i would tell him something. even if he repents it hard to be friends with someone who did that. and uh i have forgave a man for raping my sister. but i wont be his friend. he in essence destroyed and took my sister's innocence and even now i cant feel some pain and while i dont hate him. the ickiness over that doesnt just go away. oh i forgive you and lets be friends even though you are a christians now. not that he is.

[jason]

that was back in 1992 when that occured to me. he was a Bis*xual male and i was but i didnt act on that then, that is another day and time to tell.
i dont know what i would say to him. i would tell him something. even if he repents it hard to be friends with someone who did that. and uh i have forgave a man for raping my sister. but i wont be his friend. he in essence destroyed and took my sister's innocence and even now i cant feel some pain and while i dont hate him. the ickiness over that doesnt just go away. oh i forgive you and lets be friends even though you are a christians now. not that he is.

you all juxtapose judge with calling sin sin. is that correct? judging a man to be in sin isnt judging them at all as in condemning them to hell.

[Teejay]

=jason,May 31 2011, 06:31 PM]
you all juxtapose judge with calling sin sin. is that correct? judging a man to be in sin isnt judging them at all as in condemning them to hell.

Jason,

Paul wrote that you will judge angels. God will delegate the task of judging to His saints. That's you (if you are a Christian?). If you don't believe that you are supposed to judge, then please tear the Book of Judges out of your Bible.

TeeJay

[Teejay]

=jason,May 31 2011, 06:31 PM]
you all juxtapose judge with calling sin sin. is that correct? judging a man to be in sin isnt judging them at all as in condemning them to hell.

Jason,

I think what Fred is trying to do is expose false Christian beliefs (cliches') that are not supported by Scripture. You just posted another cliche'. Your posted that the saints will not "condemn them to hell." Before you postedit, you should have researched your Bible to see if what you said was true. What does Scripture say?

“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that you shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? I say this to your shame. Is it so that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?” (1 Cor. 6:2-5).

Notice that Christians “will judge the world!” (1 Cor. 6:2). For Paul said, “If the world will be judged by you. . .” God, the Great High Judge, delegates judgment to His people. Even spirit beings will submit to believers: “Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” Then and now, believers should “ judge. . . according to My judgments” (Ezek. 44:24) as God said. The Almighty commits judgment into the hands of His obedient servants (Rev. 20:4).

If God were the only Judge, the sins of all men would be “clearly evident, preceding them to judgment” (1 Tim. 5:24a). But because human beings will judge their fellow men on Judgment Day, therefore the sins “of some men follow later” (1 Tim. 5:24b). The human judges will already have been aware of the sins of notorious men. But they will not learn of the sins of obscure men until they are revealed at Judgment Day. Also, these human judges will then become aware of the sins of leaders, celebrities, and even family members who had carefully concealed their wickedness.

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, may have known of this. For he said, “the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment on all” (Jude 14:15). The Lord, with His saints, will judge the world!

Even Nineveh Will Judge. Jesus too said, “The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it. . .” (Mat. 12:41). And as Solomon wrote, “jealously is a husband’s fury; therefore, he will not spare [the adulterer who violated his wife] in the day of vengeance. He will accept no recompense nor will he be appeased” (Prov. 6:34-35). God gives the responsibility for vengeance, condemnation, and judgment to His servants for “every tongue which rises against you in judgment YOU [Jason] shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord” (Isa. 54:17).

You wrote, "I don't know what I would say to him." What you should say to him is in Jesus' teaching about judging. Jesus said that you should not try to get the speck out of your brother's eye if you have a log in your own. Notice that Jesus then said to first get the log out of your eye and then you can see clearly to get the speck out of your brother's eye. Jesus did not say to leave the speck in your brother's eye. Jason, now that you're a Christian, and are free from that lifestyle (gotten the log out your eye), and you can see clearly, then you should rebuke this man. If he repents, you should forgive him but warn him that ultimately, all sin is against God and ultimate forgiveness must come from God through Jesus Christ. If he does not repent, then you should warn him that he is destined for hell for eternity. Then you can shake the dust off your feet.

You wrote that you forgave the man who raped your sister. Again, you are the victim of bad Bible teaching. I would not be surprised if you got this from some pastor or Bible teacher. You do not have authority or standing to forgive your sister's rapist. Only your sister and God can do that. He raped your sister, not you. If I owe you $100, you and only you can forgive the debt. Why? Because I owe the $100 to you (not your sister). For this reason, God even forbade earthly judges or government officials to forgive and show mercy (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31).

Then you wrote that you do not hate him. We just got finished teaching on "love the sinner and hate the sin." God hates the unrepentant sinner. Why don't you? Don't try and be nicer than God. Love is precious and you should not love the unrepentant H*mos*xual. If you want to show love to him, you do it by rebuking him and warning him and pointing him to Jesus Christ.

If Bill Clinton and Hillary go to hell, it will be with the loving embrace and send-off of Billy Graham. On national TV, Billy told Bill that he was a good president, a good man, and would make a good evangelist. Instead, Billy Graham should have harshly rebuked Bill and Hillary Clinton in front of the whole world. Can you ever imagine John the Baptist or Jesus doing what Billy Graham did? When Bill Clinton wakes up in hell, he will be shocked: "What am I doing here? Billy Graham told me I was a good man?" Billy should have told the Clintons the truth.

TeeJay

[jason]

Jason,

I think what Fred is trying to do is expose false Christian beliefs (cliches') that are not supported by Scripture.  You just posted another cliche'.  Your posted that the saints will not "condemn them to hell."  Before you postedit, you should have researched your Bible to see if what you said was true.  What does Scripture say?

“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?  And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?  Do you not know that you shall judge angels?  How much more, things that pertain to this life?  I say this to your shame.  Is it so that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?”  (1 Cor. 6:2-5).

Notice that Christians “will judge the world!” (1 Cor. 6:2).  For Paul said, “If the world will be judged by you. . .”  God, the Great High Judge, delegates judgment to His people.  Even spirit beings will submit to believers:  “Do you not know that we shall judge angels?”  Then and now, believers should “ judge. . . according to My judgments” (Ezek. 44:24) as God said.  The Almighty commits judgment into the hands of His obedient servants (Rev. 20:4).

If God were the only Judge, the sins of all men would be “clearly evident, preceding them to judgment” (1 Tim. 5:24a).  But because human beings will judge their fellow men on Judgment Day, therefore the sins “of some men follow later” (1 Tim. 5:24b).  The human judges will already have been aware of the sins of notorious men.  But they will not learn of the sins of obscure men until they are revealed at Judgment Day.  Also, these human judges will then become aware of the sins of leaders, celebrities, and even family members who had carefully concealed their wickedness.

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, may have known of this.  For he said, “the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment on all” (Jude 14:15).  The Lord, with His saints, will judge the world!

Even Nineveh Will Judge.  Jesus too said, “The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it. . .” (Mat. 12:41).  And as Solomon wrote, “jealously is a husband’s fury; therefore, he will not spare [the adulterer who violated his wife] in the day of vengeance.  He will accept no recompense nor will he be appeased” (Prov. 6:34-35).  God gives the responsibility for vengeance, condemnation, and judgment to His servants for “every tongue which rises against you in judgment YOU [Jason] shall condemn.  This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord” (Isa. 54:17).

You wrote, "I don't know what I would say to him."  What you should say to him is in Jesus' teaching about judging.  Jesus said that you should not try to get the speck out of your brother's eye if you have a log in your own.  Notice that Jesus then said to first get the log out of your eye and then you can see clearly to get the speck out of your brother's eye.  Jesus did not say to leave the speck in your brother's eye.  Jason, now that you're a Christian, and are free from that lifestyle (gotten the log out your eye), and you can see clearly, then you should rebuke this man.  If he repents, you should forgive him but warn him that ultimately, all sin is against God and ultimate forgiveness must come from God through Jesus Christ.  If he does not repent, then you should warn him that he is destined for hell for eternity.  Then you can shake the dust off your feet.

You wrote that you forgave the man who raped your sister.  Again, you are the victim of bad Bible teaching.  I would not be surprised if you got this from some pastor or Bible teacher.  You do not have authority or standing to forgive your sister's rapist.  Only your sister and God can do that.  He raped your sister, not you.  If I owe you $100, you and only you can forgive the debt.  Why?  Because I owe the $100 to you (not your sister).  For this reason, God even forbade earthly judges or government officials to forgive and show mercy (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31).

Then you wrote that you do not hate him.  We just got finished teaching on "love the sinner and hate the sin."  God hates the unrepentant sinner.  Why don't you?  Don't try and be nicer than God.  Love is precious and you should not love the unrepentant H*mos*xual.  If you want to show love to him, you do it by rebuking him and warning him and pointing him to Jesus Christ.

If Bill Clinton and Hillary go to hell, it will be with the loving embrace and send-off of Billy Graham.  On national TV, Billy told Bill that he was a good president, a good man, and would make a good evangelist.  Instead, Billy Graham should have harshly rebuked Bill and Hillary Clinton in front of the whole world.  Can you ever imagine John the Baptist or Jesus doing what Billy Graham did?  When Bill Clinton wakes up in hell, he will be shocked:  "What am I doing here?  Billy Graham told me I was a good man?"  Billy should have told the Clintons the truth.

TeeJay

that is because i neglected to tell you i hated that man. think about if a man kills your son are you not too hurt? is he not your blood?


trust me if i acted on hate and hating the sin as you do and do the same then most of americans would be dead. i hate the sin yes but i will warn them to repent but wow to say that we are to hate them as God does?

You all havent a clue as to how much i hate the sin of bisexuality and the man that lead me down that path. yup it takes two and i did hate that man, and God told me one day, well if you hate him then perhaps i should judge thee that way too.

telling them its sin, is one thing and if they repents its on them not me. i am not the one to judge as i know me. i have did you all come across to. much of america would be dead.


one chance to repent and thats it. done. i would slay thee then and there. is that not the same thing? me thinks so.whenever i warn any member of the lbgt that its sin i would also best check my heart. am i wanting them to repent or do i hate them and dont want them to repent.

[jason]

ok. let me get this straight?

judging

if i sinner a bi male(which i do know of some and my neighbors are lesbians)
should i then just walk up and tell them hey you need to repent as God isnt to be mocked and if you dont hell we be your home?

if that is judgment that then is a call to repent.not judging them to hell on the final jugdment. i know of the verses you speak and in revalation that is fulfilled.

warning them of sin and impedending damnation isnt what i think you are at glance saying.

ususally with the lbgt they are not going to listen to that style of approach. i did. but one has to establish some relationship. the person who called and told me , knew me for yrs.

sadly christians have told the G*ys that they are damned and God wont forgive them and called them names and hated them and killed them.

i have been subjected to some of that.

[Teejay]

=jason,Jun 1 2011, 05:57 AM]
that is because i neglected to tell you i hated that man. think about if a man kills your son are you not too hurt? is he not your blood?

Yes, your sister is your blood. But you can only forgive him for the hurt caused you. You can't forgive him for the rape. Only your sister can do that. And then you and your sister can only forgive him if he repents and asks your sister's forgiveness first.

trust me if i acted on hate and hating the sin as you do and do the same then most of americans would be dead. i hate the sin yes but i will warn them to repent but wow to say that we are to hate them as God does?

God does not want you to "act on your hate" and take revenge. The Bible teaches that God has established government to execute vengeance on those who commit crimes.

Jason, I gave you the verses that show that you should not love the unrepentant child molester for example:

What is hypocritical love? The Bible answer is, “Should you love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you” (2 Chr. 19:2). Warning the wicked of the coming judgment is harsh, but is a necessary component of acceptable love. A love that is not hypocritical rebukes and condemns, and then points to Jesus Christ.

You all havent a clue as to how much i hate the sin of bisexuality and the man that lead me down that path. yup it takes two and i did hate that man, and God told me one day, well if you hate him then perhaps i should judge thee that way too.

Jason, I was going to let this go. But I must point out that the Bible does not mention "bisexuality" as a sin. When a man lies with another man, he has committed the sin of h*m*s*xuality which is punishable by death (Lev. 18:22 & 29; 20:13). It matters not that he likes girls too. I to have committed a crime for which I should have been put to death--adultery.

If you have repented of your sin of h*m*s*xuality and have left that lifestyle, then that was not God talking to you. He has forgiven you. Read your last sentence. That was Satan putting a guilt trip on you and getting you to question God's word: "Did Jesus really say that you are forgiven?" He used the same trick with Eve at the tree. Did God really say..."

telling them its sin, is one thing and if they repents its on them not me. i am not the one to judge as i know me. i have did you all come across to. much of america would be dead.

Jason, so you got the log out of your own eye. Did Jesus teach that you should now leave your neighbor with the speck in his eye? Or did He teach that you should help your neighbor by getting the speck out of his eye now that you can see clearly? Think about it! Why aren't you the one to judge? Having been in that lifestyle and having first hand experienced the horrors of it, you are more fit to judge in this area than I.

Actually if God's law was strictly enforced and evil men were swiftly executed, more Americans would be alive. There would be far less murderers, kidnappers, false witnesses, rapes, adulterers,, and homosexuls. For as Solomon said, "men would hear and fear...."

one chance to repent and thats it. done. i would slay thee then and there. is that not the same thing? me thinks so.whenever i warn any member of the lbgt that its sin i would also best check my heart. am i wanting them to repent or do i hate them and dont want them to repent.

I'm not sure what you mean by this last post?

TeeJay

[jason]

Yes, your sister is your blood.  But you can only forgive him for the hurt caused you.  You can't forgive him for the rape.  Only your sister can do that.  And then you and your sister can only forgive him if he repents and asks your sister's forgiveness first.
 
God does not want you to "act on your hate" and take revenge.  The Bible teaches that God has established government to execute vengeance on those who commit crimes.

Jason, I gave you the verses that show that you should not love the unrepentant child molester for example:

What is hypocritical love?  The Bible answer is, “Should you love those who hate the Lord?  Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you” (2 Chr. 19:2).  Warning the wicked of the coming judgment is harsh, but is a necessary component of acceptable love.  A love that is not hypocritical rebukes and condemns, and then points to Jesus Christ.
Jason, I was going to let this go.  But I must point out that the Bible does not mention "bisexuality" as a sin.  When a man lies with another man, he has committed the sin of h*m*s*xuality which is punishable by death (Lev. 18:22 & 29; 20:13).  It matters not that he likes girls too.  I to have committed a crime for which I should have been put to death--adultery.

If you have repented of your sin of h*m*s*xuality and have left that lifestyle, then that was not God talking to you.  He has forgiven you.  Read your last sentence.  That was Satan putting a guilt trip on you and getting you to question God's word:  "Did Jesus really say that you are forgiven?"  He used the same trick with Eve at the tree.  Did God really say..." 
Jason, so you got the log out of your own eye.  Did Jesus teach that you should now leave your neighbor with the speck in his eye?  Or did He teach that you should help your neighbor by getting the speck out of his eye now that you can see clearly?  Think about it!  Why aren't you the one to judge?  Having been in that lifestyle and having first hand experienced the horrors of it, you are more fit to judge in this area than I.

Actually if God's law was strictly enforced and evil men were swiftly executed, more Americans would be alive.  There would be far less murderers, kidnappers, false witnesses, rapes, adulterers,, and homosexuls.  For as Solomon said, "men would hear and fear...."
I'm not sure what you mean by this last post?

TeeJay

ok? by your thinking on that leviticus 18 verse. then lesbianism isnt a sin. i know you don mean that.

uh i'm sure you realise that being a bi isnt listed but it was around then as it was common among greeks. i had to the desire for a man and at the same time a woman. i choose which one to act on. but the other side i didnt was always there.

there are some h*m*sexuals that havent ever liked a girl. i know a man coming out of that and he is just now liking the opposite s@x. he is 28 and never wanted a girl.

therefore while its a choice to repent, one cant say that person choose to all of sudden be that way. i have learned that its a complicated reason for them and i myself to become what we did. i dont buy the genes deal, but to say that one has a choice isnt totally off either. meaning that either a spirit dominates you and owns you and coerces you to that life. i am also sure that one can repent if they so chooose. some of that is also from self-laothing and aka narcism and also child abuse

you also missread that.

i meant to edit that line on God saying i wasnt forgiven

when i fell in love with a man and repented i despised him for what he made me do. God rebuked me and said if judge you now, you are just as guilty of that sin but you repented and he hasnt. forgive him for now you are able to understand him.pray that he does repent.

for you see he was honest in what he was , a man that had gender confusion and didnt hide it from me. i was just as guilty of that sin as he was. i had no right to hate him. i feel sorry for him., he needs to repent

ok let me clarify this statement that you cant understand.

how would you that doesnt know much on what i or the others in the lbgt feel on this statement? God hates fags.

keep in mind they have been beaten to death, called names, spit upon. jailed etc.

with that in mind answer the question and i will add some scenerios that i will face in the army national guard sooner or later.

[Teejay]

=jason,Jun 1 2011, 04:54 PM]
ok? by your thinking on that leviticus 18 verse. then lesbianism isnt a sin. i know you don mean that.

There are many confused Christians who teach that Lev. 18:22 only applies to men (or sodomy). And they argue that only the male homo should be put to death because God does not specifically say that lesbians should be put to death. The Jews had a Hebrew idiom (uncovering one's nakedness) which was nice way of saying don't have S@xual relations. Let's see what happens if we don't use common sense:

"The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shall not uncover her nakedness [a nice way of saying do not have S@xual relations with her]. The nakedness of thy father’s wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father’s nakedness. The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad [related by blood or marriage], even their nakedness thou shall not uncover." Lev. 18:7-9

"Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father’s brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter-in-law: she is thy son’s wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness." Lev. 18:14-15

"And the man that lieth with his father’s wife hath uncovered his father’s nakedness…. [crystal clear here]" Lev. 20:11

"And if a man shall lie with his uncle’s wife, he hath uncovered his uncle’s nakedness…. And if a man shall take his brother’s wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother’s nakedness…." Lev. 20:20-21

"In thee [Israel] have they discovered their fathers’ nakedness: in thee have they humbled [violated] her that was set apart [isolated] for pollution [during her menstrual period]." Ezek. 22:10

"Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness [during her menstrual period]." Lev. 18:19

In all these passages, God is warning the man not to do these things. Does this mean that the wife is exempt from these commands and she can uncover the nakedness of her family. Of course not! And Paul writes, "For this reason God gave them over to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature" (Rom. 1:26).

uh i'm sure you realise that being a bi isnt listed but it was around then as it was common among greeks. i had to the desire for a man and at the same time a woman. i choose which one to act on. but the other side i didnt was always there.

God commanded the death penalty for two men lying together. God did not command the death penalty for a man lying with a woman. If a young man and oman were caught together, God advised that the elders marry them. God commands the death penalty for a man and woman when the woman is married to another man. Then both the man and woman were put to death.

It matters not if you like women. If man lies with man, both are h*m*sexuals and have broken God's law. A man only has rape once to become a rapist. A man only has to kidnap once to be labeled a kidnapper.

there are some h*m*sexuals that havent ever liked a girl. i know a man coming out of that and he is just now liking the opposite s@x. he is 28 and never wanted a girl.

For years, I liked being intoxicated. I did not like being sober much. But with God's help, I quit. My liking or disliking has no bearing on what God forbids (being a drunkard).

therefore while its a choice to repent, one cant say that person choose to all of sudden be that way. i have learned that its a complicated reason for them and i myself to become what we did. i dont buy the genes deal, but to say that one has a choice isnt totally off either. meaning that either a spirit dominates you and owns you and coerces you to that life. i am also sure that one can repent if they so chooose. some of that is also from self-laothing and aka narcism and also child abuse

All men have their demons--some more than others. Many homos are in that lifestyle because they were molested and introduced to it by a male homo preditor (AKA Catholic priests).

I'm a happily married man and I have never been unfaithful to my wife. But I had a job where I traveled and was away from home quite a bit. Believe me! I had just as much temptation as any homo. I like women and they were everywhere available and willing. I chose to be a straight arrow. We all have desires and temptations. But we should not act on them. I had young men who worked for me who gave in to the temptation. Many of them are now alone. Their wives left them.

you also missread that.

i meant to edit that line on God saying i wasnt forgiven

when i fell in love with a man and repented i despised him for what he made me do. God rebuked me and said if judge you now, you are just as guilty of that sin but you repented and he hasnt. forgive him for now you are able to understand him.pray that he does repent.

for you see he was honest in what he was , a man that had gender confusion and didnt hide it from me. i was just as guilty of that sin as he was. i had no right to hate him. i feel sorry for him., he needs to repent

ok let me clarify this statement that you cant understand.

how would you that doesnt know much on what i or the others in the lbgt feel on this statement? God hates fags.

keep in mind they have been beaten to death, called names, spit upon. jailed etc.

with that in mind answer the question and i will add some scenerios that i will face in the army national guard sooner or later.

TeeJay

[Teejay]

This may be the most prevalent of Bible clichés, if not the most controversial and the one likely to cause fellow Christians to seek me out and stone me.   In defending unconditional forgiveness, one verse fellow Christians often try to cite by memory is:

Luke 17:3-4 If your brother sins against you, forgive him.  And if he sins against you seven times in a day, ' you shall forgive him." 

The verse above appears in 90% of Christian's Bibles. However, it appears differently in the Bible I carry:

Luke 17:3-4 If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.  And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him." 

OK, I'm being a little facetious. The point is, the highlighted words above might as well not be in the Bible of the vast majority of Christians, because they read right past them as if they don't exist. When shown this, they will almost instantaneously object and still claim you should always forgive. "These plain words just can't be there, there must be an explanation" they think to themselves. You may cite the Lord's prayer or some other "forgive" verse, but just because it doesn't include the repent qualifier doesn't negate the qualifier, any more than eye witness accounts where each leaves out some detail doesn't mean there are conflicting accounts. There are verses without the repent qualifier, and there are verses with it. Therefore, the only way to reconcile the two is that "forgive if they repent" must be the correct version since it accommodates ALL the forgiveness verses. Forgive unconditionally does NOT accommodate the forgive with repent qualifier verses.  Unfortunately there are scores of theologians who teach unconditional repentance, such as the popular Philip Yancy, and such teaching does more harm than good, as any unscriptural teaching does.

It also makes very good reasonable sense. How many times have you heard a fellow Christian, perhaps even yourself, say, "I know I'm supposed to forgive this person, but it is very very hard". When is it hard for us to forgive? When someone has wronged us and they are completely unrepentant of it! It makes no sense to forgive them, and even if we try, and convince ourselves we have, in our heart and mind we know we really haven't.  If someone says their sorry or makes an amends, it's very easy to forgive, and we should without hesitation! Also, how does "forgiving" an unrepentant person do that person any good? Lack of accountability encourages further bad behavior.

Now I am not saying to harbor some bitter root if a person doesn't repent of some wrong they did you, but you are not required to forgive them! If you don't know if they have repented, then err on the side of forgiveness. I think this is why some verses don't contain the qualifer, Christ doesn't want us to abuse the repent qualifier. Sometimes a repentance or apology may not be explicit, but it may be implied by behavior of the person, so again, err on the side of forgiveness if you don't know for sure.

Finally, if you are thinking that we should forgive as Christ forgave, then I'm glad you are thinking this. Please do apply this standard. Ask yourself, does Christ forgive the unrepentant?

Fred

Fred, I think we should explore this tope a bit more. There seems to be much confusion, not only IF we should forgive, but who HAS STANDING to forgive. The following are excerps from the news that I picked out to use for I Bible study I do on forgiveness.

Michael Ross raped and murdered eight women in Connecticut. After years of litigation, he is to be put to death. One of his surviving victims, a Vivian Dobson, is lobbying to stay his execution. When interviewed on Fox News, she said she forgives him and does not believe the government has the right to execute him.

Someone should explain to Miss Dobson that she should rebuke Michael, and if he repents, forgive him. Jesus said in Luke 17:3, “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.” In Matthew 18:22, Jesus added that you should forgive your brother “seventy times seven [if he repents].”

Paul teaches that the unrepentant world is under the law, and that the law is designed to show guilt and to bring people to Christ. When people take away the condemnation of God’s law and fail to rebuke, they take away God’s primary evangelistic tool.

"But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless… and for sinners… for murders… for sodomites, for kidnappers, for perjurers…" 1 Tim. 1:8-10

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God… Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ…" Gal. 3:19, 31, 24-25

Someone should explain to Miss Dobson that even if Michael Ross asked for her forgiveness, she can only forgive the wrong that Michael did to her. Miss Dobson can’t forgive him for his other victims. They can’t forgive him either, because they are not alive. Only God can forgive Michael Ross and then only if he repents and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Paul writes, “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [God] and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Rom. 10:9).

Someone should explain to Miss Dobson that even if Michael Ross confesses Jesus as his Lord, he should still be executed. Earthly judges are directed by God to judge the flesh and are not to show mercy (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31). God judges the heart.

And someone should explain to Miss Dobson that she is being nicer than God. Jesus Christ (God) did not do away with the death penalty for capital crimes. Jesus emphasized that He did not come “to destroy the Law or the prophets” (Mat. 5:17-19). Jesus blasted the Pharisees for not carrying out the death penalty (Mat. 15:3-4; Mark 7:8-11). The Apostle Paul supported the death penalty in Acts 25:11 and Romans 13:4. The Book of Hebrews supports capital punishment (Heb. 10:28-29). And the Book of Revelation supports capital punishment (Rev. 13:10 & 16:5-6). And the thief on the Cross endorsed the death penalty.

Timothy McVeigh blew up a federal building in Oklahoma and murdered many innocent men, women, and children who were in the building. He went to his execution, unrepentant and mumbling some nonsense, “If I go to hell, so be it; I will adapt and survive.” But this morning, April 17, 2005, on Fox News, a survivor of the bombing, Cathy Sanders, said that in a face-to-face meeting with McVeigh, she forgave him. (Although Cathy survived, two of her grandchildren were killed in the bombing.) Cathy can forgive McVeigh for the hurt that he caused her (only if he repents), but she can’t forgive the debt he owes to her grandchildren. Only they and God can forgive this injustice.

During the Vietnam War, Hanoi Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam and gave aid and comfort to our enemies in time of war. Our POW’s were being tortured by Vietnamese guards. One of the guards’ favorite torture was hanging our soldiers from a wooden beam until their arms dislocated at the shoulders. For Jane’s visit, the guards took our soldiers, gave them a bath, put new clothes on them, doctored their wounds, fed them and falsely presented them to TV cameras as being treated humanely. When our soldiers tried to pass notes to Jane to let the world know that they were being tortured, she turned the notes over to the Vietnamese guards. The result was worse torture.

Recently, Senator John McCain was asked what he would say to Jane Fonda if he met her. (Senator McCain was a POW in North Vietnam.) Paraphrasing, he replied that he had no animosity, and that he had done foolish things in his youth and that Jane probably regrets what she did. However, recent television interviews with Hanoi Jane, in as late as April 2005, indicate a half-hearted regret—regret that she had made a PR blunder, but no repentance.

In 2006, an evil pervert barricaded himself in an Amish school with several young girls. When police arrived and attempted rescue, he murdered the girls and took his own life. He had tied the feet of the girls and the police found S@xual lubricants on his person. It’s obvious that he had planned to sodomize these young ladies.

The Amish leaders immediately forgave him. The news media lauded their unconditional love and forgiveness. One news media reported that an Amish person approached the murderer’s wife and family and said, “We forgive you.” For what? The murderer’s wife and children were innocent. But this shows how confused Christians become when they do not read and obey Scripture.

Vivian Dobson, Cathy Sanders, Senator McCain and the Amish leaders all have one thing in common. Self-righteousness! “Look at me and see how forgiving and good I am.” This type of forgiveness is phony and does nothing for the sinner who is going to hell. Unsolicited forgiveness is totally ineffective. Unless Michael, Tim, and Jane repent, they will stand guilty before the Judge of all the Universe. But why should they repent, if they are not told they are sinners? For the mass murderer of those poor Amish children, it’s too late. He’s in hell awaiting God’s righteous judgment


We Should Not Falsely Represent God

An ambassador to a foreign country should not falsely represent his country’s leader. False representation of a leader’s position can sometimes have grave consequences. One such example comes to mind when one of our State ambassadors led Saddam Hussien to erroneously believe that we would not interfere with his invasion of Kuwait. This false representation led to Desert Storm.

We Christians are ambassadors for Christ (2 Cor. 5:20). Misrepresenting Jesus Christ’s position is far more serious. If we forgive the unrepentant and teach others to do so, we point people to hell. Because then an unbeliever will falsely believe that if Jesus is real, He will forgive. “Why not? All of His followers have forgiven me—no matter what I’ve done. I know I’m an unrepentant sinner, but they forgave anyway. I have nothing to worry about. So shoot! I’ll just have a good time. Maybe I’ll look into Hinduism or Islam. Even if Jesus is the right way, I’m forgiven—according to his followers. I might even look into Native American spirits. Why not? That Christian religion is a piece of cake. Everyone is forgiven. The Christian God loves everyone, respects diversity, tolerates perverse life styles even.” Sadly, this is the message the church (Christ’s ambassadors) has given to an unbelieving world headed for hell.

TeeJay

[Fred Williams]

Fred, I think we should explore this tope a bit more.  There seems to be much confusion, not only IF we should forgive, but who HAS STANDING to forgive.  The following are excerps from the news that I picked out to use for I Bible study I do on forgiveness.

Michael Ross raped and murdered eight women in Connecticut.  After years of litigation, he is to be put to death.  One of his surviving victims, a Vivian Dobson, is lobbying to stay his execution.  When interviewed on Fox News, she said she forgives him and does not believe the government has the right to execute him.

Someone should explain to Miss Dobson that she should rebuke Michael, and if he  repents, forgive him.  Jesus said in Luke 17:3, “Take heed to yourselves.  If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.”  In Matthew 18:22, Jesus added that you should forgive your brother “seventy times seven [if he repents].”

Paul teaches that the unrepentant world is under the law, and that the law is designed to show guilt and to bring people to Christ.  When people take away the condemnation of God’s law and fail to rebuke, they take away God’s primary evangelistic tool.

"But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, knowing this:  that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless… and for sinners… for murders… for sodomites, for kidnappers, for perjurers…" 1 Tim. 1:8-10

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God…  Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ…"  Gal. 3:19, 31, 24-25

Someone should explain to Miss Dobson that even if Michael Ross asked for her forgiveness, she can only forgive the wrong that Michael did to her.  Miss Dobson can’t forgive him for his other victims.  They can’t forgive him either, because they are not alive.  Only God can forgive Michael Ross and then only if he repents and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior.  Paul writes, “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [God] and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Rom. 10:9).

Someone should explain to Miss Dobson that even if Michael Ross confesses Jesus as his Lord, he should still be executed.  Earthly judges are directed by God to judge the flesh and are not to show mercy (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31).  God judges the heart.

And someone should explain to Miss Dobson that she is being nicer than God.  Jesus Christ (God) did not do away with the death penalty for capital crimes.  Jesus emphasized that He did not come “to destroy the Law or the prophets” (Mat. 5:17-19).  Jesus blasted the Pharisees for not carrying out the death penalty (Mat. 15:3-4; Mark 7:8-11).  The Apostle Paul supported the death penalty in Acts 25:11 and Romans 13:4.  The Book of Hebrews supports capital punishment (Heb. 10:28-29).  And the Book of Revelation supports capital punishment (Rev. 13:10 & 16:5-6).  And the thief on the Cross endorsed the death penalty.

Timothy McVeigh blew up a federal building in Oklahoma and murdered many innocent men, women, and children who were in the building.  He went to his execution, unrepentant and mumbling some nonsense, “If I go to hell, so be it; I will adapt and survive.”  But this morning, April 17, 2005, on Fox News, a survivor of the bombing, Cathy Sanders, said that in a face-to-face meeting with McVeigh, she forgave him.  (Although Cathy survived, two of her grandchildren were killed in the bombing.)  Cathy can forgive McVeigh for the hurt that he caused her (only if he repents), but she can’t forgive the debt he owes to her grandchildren.  Only they and God can forgive this injustice.

During the Vietnam War, Hanoi Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam and gave aid and comfort to our enemies in time of war.  Our POW’s were being tortured by Vietnamese guards.  One of the guards’ favorite torture was hanging our soldiers from a wooden beam until their arms dislocated at the shoulders.  For Jane’s visit, the guards took our soldiers, gave them a bath, put new clothes on them, doctored their wounds, fed them and falsely presented them to TV cameras as being treated humanely.  When our soldiers tried to pass notes to Jane to let the world know that they were being tortured, she turned the notes over to the Vietnamese guards.  The result was worse torture.

Recently, Senator John McCain was asked what he would say to Jane Fonda if he met her.  (Senator McCain was a POW in North Vietnam.)  Paraphrasing, he replied that he had no animosity, and that he had done foolish things in his youth and that Jane probably regrets what she did.  However, recent television interviews with Hanoi Jane, in as late as April 2005, indicate a half-hearted regret—regret that she had made a PR blunder, but no repentance.

In 2006, an evil pervert barricaded himself in an Amish school with several young girls.  When police arrived and attempted rescue, he murdered the girls and took his own life.  He had tied the feet of the girls and the police found S@xual lubricants on his person.  It’s obvious that he had planned to sodomize these young ladies.

The Amish leaders immediately forgave him.  The news media lauded their unconditional love and forgiveness.  One news media reported that an Amish person approached the murderer’s wife and family and said, “We forgive you.”  For what?  The murderer’s wife and children were innocent.  But this shows how confused Christians become when they do not read and obey Scripture.

Vivian Dobson, Cathy Sanders, Senator McCain and the Amish leaders all have one thing in common.  Self-righteousness!  “Look at me and see how forgiving and good I am.”  This type of forgiveness is phony and does nothing for the sinner who is going to hell.  Unsolicited forgiveness is totally ineffective.  Unless Michael, Tim, and Jane repent, they will stand guilty before the Judge of all the Universe.  But why should they repent, if they are not told they are sinners?  For the mass murderer of those poor Amish children, it’s too late.  He’s in hell awaiting God’s righteous judgment
We Should Not Falsely Represent God

An ambassador to a foreign country should not falsely represent his country’s leader.  False representation of a leader’s position can sometimes have grave consequences.  One such example comes to mind when one of our State ambassadors led Saddam Hussien to erroneously believe that we would not interfere with his invasion of Kuwait.  This false representation led to Desert Storm.

We Christians are ambassadors for Christ (2 Cor. 5:20).  Misrepresenting Jesus Christ’s position is far more serious.  If we forgive the unrepentant and teach others to do so, we point people to hell.  Because then an unbeliever will falsely believe that if Jesus is real, He will forgive.  “Why not?  All of His followers have forgiven me—no matter what I’ve done.  I know I’m an unrepentant sinner, but they forgave anyway.  I have nothing to worry about.  So shoot!  I’ll just have a good time.  Maybe I’ll look into Hinduism or Islam.  Even if Jesus is the right way, I’m forgiven—according to his followers.  I might even look into Native American spirits.  Why not?  That Christian religion is a piece of cake.  Everyone is forgiven.  The Christian God loves everyone, respects diversity, tolerates perverse life styles even.”  Sadly, this is the message the church (Christ’s ambassadors) has given to an unbelieving world headed for hell.

TeeJay

Very, very well stated, I think it was worth quoting your entire post, I highly recommend our members and visitors read this. Thanks TeeJay!

Fred

[Remnant of The Abyss]

In my opinion, something is lacking about this thread. Nowhere is sin defined. Because as Christians, we all are supposed to understand what sin is. Yet is it possible to know something and still make wrongful assumptions/assessments.

An example for clarification:

A Christian wife asks her Christian husband the old loaded question "Do these jeans make me look fat?" The husband, wanting to answer honestly, yet take some of the sting out of what he's really thinking answers "Well honey, honestly they are not the most flattering." At that point the wife explodes and screams "You have sinned against me!"

So, are hurt feelings a sin? Was any real sin committed here? As a general rule, I'm unsure about the answer to the first question, but in this case where the husband was being honest, and didn't intentionally hurt his wife's feelings, I don't think any sin was committed.

Is there a difference between unintentionally hurting the feelings of another and intentionally hurting the feelings of another? Does the intentional qualify as sin? I'm not sure. But it IS a matter of the heart.

Now, what if the wife sticks to her guns and demands repentance from her husband?? In my opinion, the wife should simply forgive her husband's "trespass", unconditionally, as there is no "repentance" to be had. As far as I see it, no sin was committed, therefore no apology needs to be offered from the husband.

But of course a situation like this could result in a "Mexican Standoff", couldn't it?

To really complicate matters, consider this. What if the wife was angry with the husband to begin with? Then she used this loaded question to slam him over the head with it like a frozen salami? Would she be the one who first sinned, if indeed this qualifies as sin? Is the husband guilty of sinning at this point with his answer?

Bottom line for me: identifying "sin" is not always so black and white.

[Teejay]

[quote] name='Remnant of The Abyss' timestamp='1332525831' post='82293']
In my opinion, something is lacking about this thread. Nowhere is sin defined. Because as Christians, we all are supposed to understand what sin is. Yet is it possible to know something and still make wrongful assumptions/assessments.[/quote]

RoTA, sin is breaking of God's law. God gave three tiers of the His law. The first and most important tier governs our relationship with God: "I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other God's before me...." The second tier governs our relationship with men: "Thou shall not steal, lie, commit adultery, covet, bear falsewitness etc. The third tier is symbolic, given to Israel only, and points to Jesus. The "spotless lamb for sacrifice" pointed to Jesus the sinless Lamb who would be sacrificed for us.

All sin is not a crime (coveting for example). But all crimes are sins. And all sin is against God. Ultimate forgiveness must come from God. But we have "standing" to forgive sin or crimes against us. A crime or sin committed against me can't be forgiven by you, because you can't forgive another's debt. This is why there were no bankruptcy courts in God's dispensaiton of law. If I owe you $10, Fred can't forgive my debt to you. Only you can. The Amish people forgave the man who raped and killed those school girls. But they did not have standing to do so. Only God and the girls can forgive the murderer. Make sense?

We wrongly teach Christians today that we are to forgive frivolously wthout regard to whether the person who has wronged you has repented and asked your forgiveness. This is a form of self-righteousness. And when you hear people on TV who forgive with no regard as to what Jesus commander, they are puffed up: "Just look at me how forgiving I am."

If you forgive everyone for everything, then forgiveness loses its value. And forgiveness is a precious commodity. Jesus died on the Cross so that we can be forgiven.

Another reason that Jesus so wisely taught to rebuke and not forgive unless there was this: If you do not rebuke him, he is unconvicted and has no reason to repent to you or God. When he comes to you in a repentant mode, he is ready to be witnessed to about Jesus Christ. And if God will not forgive the unrepentant, then we should not try to be nicer than God. It's not possilbe to be nicer than God.

[quote]An example for clarification

A Christian wife asks her Christian husband the old loaded question "Do these jeans make me look fat?" The husband, wanting to answer honestly, yet take some of the sting out of what he's really thinking answers "Well honey, honestly they are not the most flattering." At that point the wife explodes and screams "You have sinned against me!"

So, are hurt feelings a sin? Was any real sin committed here? As a general rule, I'm unsure about the answer to the first question, but in this case where the husband was being honest, and didn't intentionally hurt his wife's feelings, I don't think any sin was committed.[/quote]

God said that you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. But God says it's okay to lie to your enemies. The harlot hid the Jewish spies on her roof and then lied to the King of Jeraco. God blessed her. The mid-wives in Egypt lied to the Pharaoh and God blessed them. The Christians who hid Jews in Nazi and lied and disobeyed the Nazi government will be given gold crowns in heaven. But is it okay to lie in court against your neighbor? No. The penalty for being false witness in court against your neighbor is determined by what is at stake in the case. In a capital crime (murder, rape, kidnapping) God demands te death penalty for a false witness. Will God hold you responsible for lying if you withhold hurtful truth from your wife or daughter by not telling her the truth that she is fat. I think not. If a lie is told to hurt someone, then God gets angry.

[quote]Is there a difference between unintentionally hurting the feelings of another and intentionally hurting the feelings of another? Does the intentional qualify as sin? I'm not sure. But it IS a matter of the heart.[/quote]

Of course there is a difference. In the OT, if you committed a crime against your neighbor, God only had one question: Did you intend to do it. God did not hold a man guilty if he accidently killed his neighbor (hit him with an axe, etc.). But God would hold him responsible for criminal negligence. If he had a mean bull that tried to kill people in the past, and he did not put the bull in strong enclosure, and the bull killed someone, God demanded the death penalty for this. If he left an open hole in his sidewalk and a man stepped into it in the dark, he was held criminally negligent.

[quote]Now, what if the wife sticks to her guns and demands repentance from her husband?? In my opinion, the wife should simply forgive her husband's "trespass", unconditionally, as there is no "repentance" to be had. As far as I see it, no sin was committed, therefore no apology needs to be offered from the husband.[/quote]

What tresspass? Telling your wife that she does not look fat is an act of love with no intentions to hurt her. No?

[quote]But of course a situation like this could result in a "Mexican Standoff", couldn't it?

To really complicate matters, consider this. What if the wife was angry with the husband to begin with? Then she used this loaded question to slam him over the head with it like a frozen salami? Would she be the one who first sinned, if indeed this qualifies as sin? Is the husband guilty of sinning at this point with his answer?

Bottom line for me: identifying "sin" is not always so black and white.
[/quote]

If men ignore God and what he says in His law, then, yes, identifying sin is difficult. But I think I answered your questions. I don't think Jesus had your above scenario in mind when He commander His apostles to "rebuke" and only forgive if he "repents and asks forgiveness." He was talking about serious situations. I was teaching a class in Colorado on forgiveness and a young man approached me after the class. He related to me that a business partner of his had stolen $10,000 from him. His pastor had told him that he had to forgive the thief. I asked him if the man had returned the $10,000 and asked his forgiveness. He told me the man was totally unrepentant and he had to dissolve the partnership. He confided in me that he was unable to forgive the man as his pastor had admonished him to do. I instructed him that Jesus said that he should have "rebuked" the man and that Jesus forbid him to forgive this man until he returned the money and asked forgiveness in a repentant mode. He was so relieved because although he lied to himself that he had forgiven the man, he felt guilty that he really had not forgiven him. See what happens when we disobey Jesus and come up with our own opinions?

TeeJay

[Teejay]

Hello all,

Today, I watched the Todd Friel TV show "Wretched" (recorded Tuesday, Dec. 17, 2013) on the NRB channel.  On his show was an excellent example of frivolous self-righteous forgiveness.  The scene can be watched if you Google Todd Friel's TV show.  An Hispanic woman confronted the man who murdered her son.  There is no evidence of this man repenting or asking the mother or God to forgive him.  Here is what she said to him:

 

"Look at me...  You're forgiven in Jesus'  name.  I am a Christian and I am forgiving you and I will continue praying for you, Allison [the murderer of her son], I will never visit you in jail because I have not the courage to go there.  Look at me... but I will be praying.  Someday you will find this God I serve and you will serve Him as well.  I do not hate you, Allison.  I've waited all this year to be here and say it to you.  When they told me you killed my son, I didn't believe it and prayed for you.  Look at me...  I need to look at you because you killed my son and I could not see him for the last time.  You do know Daniel [her son] was not a bad boy.  You do know how Daniel was a working man.  But I am here and I will continue praying for you.  [She prays:] My Lord, accompany Allison wherever he is...  Please do not leave him alone, my Lord.  God, give comfort to his mother because she is suffering as much as I am.  I thank you, my Lord, Amen!

I can excuse this poor, confused woman who obviously received some false Bible teaching from a Christian pastor.  But I do not excuse Todd Friel who is on national TV falsely representing Jesus Christ.  We are ambassadors for Jesus Christ and we should not represent Him falsely.

To frivolously forgive in this manner, one has to pretend that Jesus did not give a class on this in the gospel of Luke:  "Take heed to yourselves.  IF your brother sins against you, REBUKE him, and IF [IF, IF , IF, IF] he repents, forgive him" (Luke 17:3).  Further, while Jesus admonished us not to try to get the speck out of our brother's eye if we have a log in our own, He did not tell us to walk away feeling good about ourselves while leaving the speck in our brother's eye.  Jesus said to get the speck out of our own eye and then get the speck out of our neighbor's eye.  But this frivolous, nicer-than-God forgiveness does exactly that; it leaves the speck (or log) in our brother's eye.  Forgiveness is not for the person who has been wronged; rather it's for he benefit of the one who sins against his brother.  The purpose is to get him saved.  Recall that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees harshly:  "Woe to you..." rebuke.  By today's standards, Jesus seems awfully harsh here.  But when we read the Book of Acts and Paul's letters, there are "believing Pharisees" mentioned.  Apparently, Jesus' harsh rebuke caused some self-examination among them.  The Pharisees were very self-righteous.  Frivolous forgiveness by Jesus would have left them self-righteous.

If we ignore God's word (Luke 17:3), logic should tell us that this woman, although the mother of her murdered son, does not have standing or authority to forgive this man.  She is, for one, usurping God's authority.  God does not give us authority to forgive an unrepentant sinner.  Secondly, she can't forgive the debt owed to another.  If Fred Williams owes me $100, Jason can't forgive my debt to Fred.  Only Fred can forgive that debt.  Likewise, the only two persons who can forgive this murderer is his victim (her son) and God, and only if he repents and asks forgiveness.

Then Todd, sang the praises of this poor woman and held her up as an example of what all Christians should do.  He even brought up the argument that if we do not forgive, we will "have bitterness in our hearts."  If it's righteous bitterness towards an unrepentant sinner, why should I not want to retain it in my heart.  The Apostle Paul went to his grave with bitterness towards Alexander the copper-smith.  Apparently Alexander sinned greviously against Paul and never repented.  The "bitterness in one's heart" theme is Hollywood psycho-babble.

Todd portrayed this as true Christian love.  If this woman had been properly schooled in the class that Jesus gave on this subject, she would have rebuked this man harshly, warned him that he is destined to an eternity in hell, and that she will not forgive him until he repents and asks her forgiveness.  When he comes to her in a repentant mode, that this the time to witness to him about Jesus:  "Of course I forgive you.  I am elated to forgive you.  But now you must seek forgiveness from God, because all sin is against God.  [And then present him with the gospel (Rom. 10:9-10]."  If he prays the prayer of salvation and accepts Jesus Christ, remind him that when he gets to heaven, he will still have to seek forgiveness from her son; and  that she can only forgive him for the hurt he caused her; she can't forgive the hurt he did to her son.  Only God and her son can do that.

I am forwarding this post to Todd Friel and inviting him to defend his position.  I don't think he can using Scripture.

TeeJay 

[Teejay]

Hello all,

While Todd Friel did not accept my invitation to defend his position here in open debate, He did reply to me.  I think that all of you will find his reply a little shocking.  I will be willing to wager that Todd will not accept reproof.  My experience with TV evangelists is they are very prideful and will deny God's word rather than repent.  I pray that Todd will prove me wrong.  Here is his email with my reply?


Todd,  I am posting this on my thread on Evolution Fairytale along with my opening argument.  I would rather you humble yourself and take correction from a brother, but until you do that I must correct your  false teaching publicly to correct the many people you've misled publicly.  .

Todd posted:  "There are indeed some theologians that believe that forgiveness should not be granted unless the offending party repents.  I happen to disagree.  I simply do not see that in Scripture."

TeeJay's reply:  If I can give you a ton of Scripture to show that God demands repentance, will it cause you to humble yourself, admit you were wrong, and correct the false teaching you gave on your TV program.  I can give the Scripture if you like?  If you answer that you do not want to hear God's verses on this, I must quote Proverb 20:17:  "... he who rejects reproof, leads others astray."

I will quote Luke 17:3 from the New King James:  "Take heed to yourselves.  If [IF, IF, IF, IF] your brother sins against you, REBUKE him.  And if [IF, IF, IF] he repents, forgive him" (Luke 17:3).  I will also quote from my older King James:  "Take heed to yourselves:  If your brother trespasses against thee, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him" (Luke 17:3).  I have to ask what you do with Matthew 18:15-17, especially verse 17?  Can you quote Luke 17:3 from the Bible you are using?

The law of non-contradiction does not allow the modern day theologians and our Lord to both be correct at the same time in the same way.  Shouldn't our Lord's teaching trump theologians teaching?
 

Todd posted:  "Jesus clearly states that we should forgive 70 times seven.  He does not mention that the person needs to repent."

 

TeeJay's reply:  Todd, with respect, you must have a different Bible.  My New King James reads:  "And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I REPENT,' you shall forgive him" (Luke 17:4).  I pray that you are not being purposely deceptive here and that you simply misread your Bible?
 

Todd posted:  "Certainly I do not believe that the person’s sins are forgiven by God.  

As you rightly state, only God can do that.

I am merely trying to be obedient to forgive as I have been forgiven."

 

TeeJay's reply:  If it is wrong for God to forgive the unrepentant, why is it right for us?

 

Using the logic of your argument thus far, I have to conclude that you think God forgave you even though you did not repent?????   Or did you repent??????

 

Todd posted:  "I trust you would agree with me that this is a difference of opinion and not an essential doctrine that would break fellowship with believers.

Correct?"

TeeJay's reply:  No.  What you posted is not correct.  If our Lord's teaching on this subject is just relative or subjective, then God's words is not absolute.  "A difference of opinion."   I interpret this to mean, "What's right for you is not right for me."  Or "what's true for you is not true for me."  Moral inconsistency is an absolute determinant for wrong.  Truth is non-contradictory and can't include falsehoods.  Something can't be both true and false at the same time in the same way.  Morality is likewise non-contradictory in that a particular behavior can't be both moral and immoral at the same time.  Simultaneously embracing opposite sides of a moral issue means to be immoral. 

Todd, the both of us can't be right at the same time in the same way.  Now both of us can be wrong.  Our personal "opinions" should not be our standard.  Rather, God's word should be our Standard when seeking truth.  Rather than agreeing with each other, shouldn't we both be agreeing with God?

I might add that when Jesus rebuked the Pharisees, He was more concerned about getting them to repent and get saved than He was about breaking fellowship with them.

My main question:  How is it possible to get the speck out of a brother's eye by not rebuking?

A brother in Christ,

 

TeeJay 

 

 

 

 

[Teejay]

Hello all,

Todd's reply to my last email:  "I was referring to Matthew 18:22."

But notice he conveniently ignores Jesus' admonition just a few verses earlier in Mat. 18:17.
 

TeeJay's response:  Let me see if I have this straight.  Jesus contradicts Himself in Luke 17:4 and Matthew 18:21:22?  "If he refuses even to hear the church [refuses to repent], let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector" (Mat. 18:17).  Why are you ignoring this as if it is not in God's word?

I will ask you again.  If I can provide you with a ton of Scripture (hurling elephants even), will you humble yourself, repent, and correct the false teaching you gave publicly on TV?

I posted on Evolutionary Fairytale: "I will be willing to wager that Todd will dig in his heels and refuse reproof on this.  My experience with TV evangelists is that they are very prideful and will deny God's word rather than admit they are wrong."  King David was loved by God because he was quick to repent.  God called him a "man after My own heart."  If King David had not repented, he would not now be in the Messianic line and he would now be in hell.  Todd, please prove me wrong.

While I love Todd as a Christian brother, I am ending this now.  I am embarrassed for him.  I will pray for him.

 

TeeJay

[Teejay]

Hello all,

One can go on line and watch a video of Robert Rule's self-righteous forgiveness.  I'm sure he felt so good about himself.  "Just look at me.  He violently raped and murdered my daughter, but I'm forgiving him.

 

1.  There is no evidence that Gary Ridgeway repented and asked to be forgiven.

 

2.  Jesus admonished us in Luke 17:3 that "if your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him."

 

3.  We can forgive a debt owed to us; we can't forgive a debt owed to another.  Gary Ridgeway did not murder and rape Robert Rule.  He raped and murdered his daughter.  Only his daughter and God can forgive Ridgeway, and then only if he repents and asks forgiveness.

 

4.  Neither can the judge forgive Ridgeway.  God forbid government officials to show mercy by judging God's law (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:3, 21; Pro. 6:30-31)

5.  Forgiveness is not to make the forgiver feel good about himself or get bitterness out of his heart.  But rebuke, repentance, and forgiveness points to God.

 

6.  Robert Rule tells Ridgeway that he does not hate him.  God calls this hypocritical love.  What is hypocritical love?  The Bible answer is, “Should you love those who hate the Lord?  Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you” (2 Chr. 19:2).  Warning the wicked of the coming judgment is harsh, but is a necessary component of acceptable love.  A love that is not hypocritical rebukes and condemns, and then points to Jesus Christ.

 

Let's look at how not to forgive:
 

Robert Rule forgives unrepentant Green River killer Gary Ridgeway for murdering his daughter Linda Rule.

“Mr. Ridgway, there are people here who hate you, I'm not one of them. I forgive you for what you've done. You've made it difficult to live up to what I believe, and it is what God says to do, and it is to forgive. And He doesn't say to forgive just certain people, He says to forgive all. So you are forgiven, sir.

 

"My daughter, our daughter, my wife and I, she was 16. At the time you killed her, my wife and I were separated. We were divorced, and she had to live on the street. She did things that I may not have been proud of, but she was still my daughter. She was still a little girl in my eyes.

 

"The job I have one month a year is to love children. I'm very fortunate in that respect right now because it's Christmas time again. I pity you, sir, because you won't have a Christmas. You won't have the love around you that everyone needs at Christmas time. And I hope some day when you stand in front of God, He can make it a little easier for you, and you can say you're sorry to Him for what you did because what you did was take a life, took all these different lives. But you didn't take just their lives. All the people that were involved with each person's life, you took. It adds up. It just multiplied.

 

"So, that's one of the reason's I feel sorry for you. You hurt more than just 48 people, you hurt all their families, their extended families, and I know there's even people in my family who would rather see you dead. I myself would rather see you executed than to live out a whole life in prison, spending money, the state's money, to keep you alive, in my opinion that's wrong. But I appreciate that you said that you killed our daughter... There is definitely closure when you know who did it and you did, and I'm sorry for you. Thank you."

 

TeeJay