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Two Gospels Revisited...


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#321 Remnant of The Abyss

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:52 PM

But the good fruit does not produce the saved condition. You cannot harmonise Paul and James unless you recognise the change preached by Paul.


Good clarification, although *I* didn't need it. But I'm glad you pointed this out for other's sakes. :)

#322 MamaElephant

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:23 PM

Would you say that I Peter 2:9,10 is referencing this idea of Israel being God's special chosen people? "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own posession...for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God..."

Think carefully now. If you think Peter was only ministering to Jews - you'd have to think that Peter is talking about Israel's special role here correct?

Thoughts?

#323 Stripe

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:37 AM

Thoughts?

Air's analysis is correct.

The first verse in the book tells us this letter is to "the dispersion".

#324 Teejay

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:19 PM

[quote] name='MamaElephant' timestamp='1334103830' post='83058']
Thoughts?
[/quote]

ME, The Dispersion were the Jews who were scattered due to persecution. See 1 Pet. 2:9; 2:12; & 4:3.

TeeJay

#325 Dig4gold

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 07:09 PM

There was a certain man that had a son. When the son was very young he was told to take the garbage out as his chore.
Many times the son would have to be told over and over and sometimes some discipline would need to be applied.

Many years had passed and the son was a man now with sons of his own. One day as he visited his elderly father he noticed that the garbage was in need of removal. He told his father to relax and he took the garbage out for him.

Now a couple of questions;
What was the young son's motivation for taking out the trash? (fear, obligation?)
What was the grown up son's motivation? (love, respect?)

Perhaps there is an analogy here in the way we respond to the Torah (teaching and instruction, not law)


Another story;

A family that had several children lived in a neighborhood in which there were several busy streets.
The children were given very stern warnings to not run into the streets. Their command came with discipline occasionally.

Some questions;

What was the motivation for the parents stern warning? (love, hate?)
Now that the children are grown is it OK for them to now run into busy streets? (yes, no?)


Maybe this is an example of why we were given the Torah.




#326 Dig4gold

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:53 AM

I'm not sure I really get this concept of 2 gospels. From what I've gathered Paul's gospel was one and even Yeshua's was another?

Question: Which one is cursed?


Gal. 1 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel [d]contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be [e]accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel [f]contrary to what you received, he is to be [g]accursed!

#327 Teejay

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 05:25 PM

Dig4gold, on 25 Dec 2012 - 20:15, said:
There was a certain man that had a son. When the son was very young he was told to take the garbage out as his chore.
Many times the son would have to be told over and over and sometimes some discipline would need to be applied.

Many years had passed and the son was a man now with sons of his own. One day as he visited his elderly father he noticed that the garbage was in need of removal. He told his father to relax and he took the garbage out for him.

Now a couple of questions;
What was the young son's motivation for taking out the trash? (fear, obligation?)
What was the grown up son's motivation? (love, respect?)



Perhaps there is an analogy here in the way we respond to the Torah (teaching and instruction, not law)


Another story;

A family that had several children lived in a neighborhood in which there were several busy streets.
The children were given very stern warnings to not run into the streets. Their command came with discipline occasionally.

Some questions;

What was the motivation for the parents stern warning? (love, hate?)
Now that the children are grown is it OK for them to now run into busy streets? (yes, no?)


Maybe this is an example of why we were given the Torah.

Dig,

God prefers motivation by love for Him and our neighbor rather than motivation by the law. But, the Torah does not allow a Jew under the gospel of circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9) to ignore the Mosaic law to circumcise, keep Sabbath law, and observe certain feasts. For Israel, under the covenant of circumcision, Sabbath law, circumcision, and Feast of Atonement are PERPETUAL, EVERLASTING, AS LONG AS THERE IS A NATION OF ISRAEL. Israel will be observing these covenants in their thousand year kingdom and in the new heaven and the new earth. For violation of these laws, God demands the death penalty. If they are not PERPETUAL, then God lied in the OT. Right?

When Paul was commissioned by Paul to go to the Gentiles with the gospel of uncircumcision, all people saved were saved under Paul's gospel of grace. There is no man presently on earth who is saved on the gospel of circumcision. That program is on hold until Jesus returns to Israel (Second Coming).

TeeJay

TeeJay

#328 Dig4gold

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 06:01 PM

"God prefers motivation by love for Him and our neighbor rather than motivation by the law."

 

A motivation of love is the best thing one can have to please our Father in heaven. It truely covers a multitude of sins.

Having said that, being led by the Holy Spirit will also direct us to walk in His Torah. I'll give a few references so that it doesn't seem that I am making that up.

 

If you love Me keep My commandmentsJohn 14:15

 

"For we know that the Torah is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. Rom 7:10

 

  "For  the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. (notice it does not say free from the Torah)

3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (remember, the Torah is Spiritual)

5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Rom 8:2-8

 

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. I John 3:4

 

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’Mat 7:21-23

 

 

The Spirit of Truth and the Word of Truth are in harmony! Is our righteousness based on our keeping the Torah? Of course not, the Torah is not a way to life it is a way of life for the redeemed. The fleshly person will not be led by the Spirit to walk according to God's teachings and instructions (they cannot even uderstand it) but we as believers should be led to walk in the Way. And always be motivated by love!

 

 

Your word I have treasured in my heart, That I may not sin against You. Psalm 119:11



#329 Teejay

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 08:15 AM

I'm not sure I really get this concept of 2 gospels. From what I've gathered Paul's gospel was one and even Yeshua's was another?

Question: Which one is cursed?


Gal. 1 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel [d]contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be [e]accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel [f]contrary to what you received, he is to be [g]accursed!

Dig,

If you ask yourself some questions and answer them honestly, you will have the answer.  Read the first two chapters of Galatians before answering.  Some questions to ask yourself:

Who was Paul writing to here?

Who was preaching a gospel that was "contrary" to his gospel of grace?

What gospel was Paul referring to that was "contrary" to his gospel?

What gospel did Paul's recipients of this writing receive?

TeeJay

 



#330 Teejay

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 08:19 AM

Dig,

Did Peter and his converts have to circumcise, keep the Sabbath laws, and observe the Feast of Atonement AFTER THE CROSS?

 

Yes or no please?

 

TeeJay



#331 Dig4gold

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 08:44 AM

Teejay, actually I asked you a question, a simple question; "which one is cursed?"

#332 Teejay

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 09:40 AM

Teejay, actually I asked you a question, a simple question; "which one is cursed?"

 

Dig,

Anyone who teaches a gospel TO PAUL'S CONVERTS that differs from "his" gospel of grace which is salvation by faith plus nothing.

 

Now, will you please answer my questions?

 

TeeJay



#333 Dig4gold

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 12:07 PM

Not so fast. Was the Gospel that Yeshua (Jesus) taught different from Paul's?

#334 Teejay

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 03:23 PM

Not so fast. Was the Gospel that Yeshua (Jesus) taught different from Paul's?

Dig,

With respect, I answered your question.  Now would you please answer mine?  I will answer yours, but we must have a proper exchange.  No?

 

TeeJay



#335 Dig4gold

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 03:58 PM

With all do respect I must have missed your answer. Would you mind repeating it or directing me to the place where you answered my question?

#336 Dig4gold

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 04:09 PM

Just to be clear if Yeshua or Peter had a different Gospel other than Paul's Gospel which one was cursed?

Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

#337 Teejay

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 04:52 PM

I'm not sure I really get this concept of 2 gospels. From what I've gathered Paul's gospel was one and even Yeshua's was another?

Question: Which one is cursed?


Gal. 1 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel [d]contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be [e]accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel [f]contrary to what you received, he is to be [g]accursed!

 

Dig,

1.  Paul's writing in the Book of Galatians is addressed to members of the Body of Christ.  It is not addressed to Peter or James or any of the circumcision believers.
2.  Paul only cursed any gospel that was "contrary" to what HE PREACHED to members of the Body of Christ, not what Peter preached to his converts.
3.  Paul only cursed any gospel other than what members of the Body received from him (and Timothy).

TeeJay



#338 Dig4gold

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 09:30 PM

Thanks for the explanation, but I wholeheartedly disagree with that theory.

#339 Teejay

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 10:28 AM

Thanks for the explanation, but I wholeheartedly disagree with that theory.


Dig,

And I "wholeheartedly disagree with your disagreement."  If we agreed, we would not be having this exchange.  I answered your questions, will you now answer mine?

 

TeeJay



#340 Dig4gold

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 04:17 PM

Fair's fair. Your question was, "Did Peter and his converts have to circumcise, keep the Sabbath laws, and observe the Feast of Atonement AFTER THE CROSS?"  (emphasis mine)

 

I need to ask two questions myself before I answer. One, by using the words "have to" in your question are you asking if they needed to obey the commands for their salvation? Two, are you suggesting that "Peter's converts" were different from Paul's converts in their belief/trust in Yeshua?






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