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Hell's Best Kept Secret


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#1 Adam Nagy

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Posted 22 April 2009 - 08:34 PM

I know that Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron aren't real effective at discussing the philosophy of science but as evangelists I believe they are dead on. They have been gifted to bring correction to a church that has become soft on how to evangelize effectively. This video and their series "The Way of the Master" have really been an eye opener to me and I hope others are blessed by this:



I have been street witnessing now for about two years and the blessing that flows from interacting with people who are hungry for truth, but blinded by sin, is an awesome blessing. It's amazing to see God's law pierce to the conscious. It either makes them run or it softens a heart to hear the truth and the Gospel. I'm still amazed at how often it holds someone when the truth of God's perfection in His Word reveals our/their sinfulness.

I believe many people get hurt witnessing to a friend or loved one because they are so anxious to share the Good News that they start sharing Jesus love with an unrepentant sinner who thinks they are 'good enough'. Scripture always demonstrates the Law to the proud and Grace to the humble. How often do we get that backwards?

#2 the totton linnet

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 12:44 PM

There can be no blessing apart from the forgiveness of sin that's for sure, on one of those vids Adam he says in a totally innocent pun how he might "break the ice" by talking about the titanic :D

#3 Adam Nagy

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 01:20 PM

There can be no blessing apart from the forgiveness of sin that's for sure, on one of those vids Adam he says in a totally innocent pun how he might "break the ice" by talking about the titanic :lol:

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:D

You're too much. I'm glad we talked about this before hand but maybe we should cautiously discuss this message and others may also like to interject. I don't think Kirk and Ray are perfect and occasionally I sense they can be a little legalistic but the fact is we all fall short. I know their approach seems unconventional to us but that's what makes it worth discussing.

I want to include these videos as well:

[godtube]271fe6017eeffa642b7d[/godtube]

[godtube]e0ffdef2b531c96c88a7[/godtube]

I hope this doesn't turn into a drag out debate but simply a desire to grow in love and truth.

#4 the totton linnet

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 04:12 PM

Right I will step up to the line, one thing I would like to say at the start about those early martyrs, apart from James and stephen there is no actual record that those apostles were martyred in the way the catholic church tradition teaches, Stephen met his savage end because his testimony was with words that the Jews could not withstand and his face shone like an angel.
Acts ch.7 vs 51-53. "ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost, as your fathers did so do ye. Which of the prophets have your fathers not persecuted and they have slain them which shewed before the coming of the Just One of Whom ye have now been the betrayers and murderers who have recieved the law and have not kept it."
I want to show you that every single prophet Stephen talked about if the Jews had listened to them they would have had a happier life, even Jeremiah in Isreal's darkest days spoke from God saying "I know the plans I have for you, plans for good and not for evil, to give you a hope and a future" God's word to the Jews never varied or faltered it was blessing and prosperity ALL the way for ALL providing only they would cleave to the Lord their God, even in their wickedness when He was punishing them His message was surrender to Nebuchadnesser and do not go to Egypt and I will bless you. But they rebelled every time.
In the case of the towers 9/11 what happened that frightful morning does not show at all that God's plan for them was ever to suffer such tragedy or that His plan was not abundant life, it was the thief who came to steal and to kill and to destroy.
When Jesus promised that "he that believeth in Me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living waters" He was not speaking about the happiness that money or physical pleasure can give He was talking about a joy unspeakable exalted and full of glory. When He promised peace it was a peace which the world cannot give. Lets get that right.
When I was saved my face was lit up for days, many days, it was almost embarrassing because people were shocked by my appearance, and stuttered out the first thing that came to their mind like "I try to be a good person" and stuff like that, even complete strangers, I tried to press my cheeks down but seconds later I realised my face was lit up again.
This is the life of Jesus in the soul, I know what I am talking about when I tell people they can be happy beyond their wildest dreams. The Apostles were whipped and persecuted because many signs and wonders were done among the people and the people held them in high honour and more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women even the shadow of Peter wrought great miracles of healing, but when they were in prison God sent an angel to open the prison door and told them to go stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this Life.
When people hate you and grit their teeth and it makes you even gladder, when you find yourself passed over for things and stuff still His peace rests upon you.
Paul was hounded everywhere he went because "through [Jesus] forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you and by Him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses." to really understand that you have to check what it was that obediance to the law promised people to be freed from, ultimately it is death. But in the realm or dominion of death is sickness, poverty, all the woes that came through man's disobedience through sin.
I disagreed a good deal more with the 2nd vid than I did with the 1st Adam [sorry] Jesus did not send us out with the message of sorrow and suffering.
See once again there is a failure to divide the word properly, to any who will follow Him and be disciples. Were all at Corinth disciples? Paul wrote to them "already ye live like kings, and would that ye did indeed reign for then we should also reign with you."
If you want to serve people, that's when the trials and persecution really starts but even then is promised more joy, more peace and a broad assurance of victory.
I am sure others will take a different view to this. But you did ask for it :D :lol:

#5 chipwag64

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Posted 25 May 2009 - 07:36 AM

I think the emphasis in the videos, as always with Way of The Master is the methodology of their evangelism.
I think that the blind man scenario speaks clearly to the dangers of wrong evangelism techniques and messages.
The good news of the gospel is not an add-on to one's life, where an already good or decent life can be made better.
The idea is that everyone's life, apart from Christ, no matter whether rich or poor, happy or miserable, healthy or sick, educated or not will always end in the judgement of an eternal sentence of "Guilty", given by a righteous judge!!
People have to be brought to the realization that they have NO defense in the courtroom to come; nothing in THIS world will be given in exchange for a pardon.

Chip

#6 the totton linnet

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 07:06 AM

I think the emphasis in the videos, as always with Way of The Master is the methodology of their evangelism.
I think that the blind man scenario speaks clearly to the dangers of wrong evangelism techniques and messages.
The good news of the gospel is not an add-on to one's life, where an already good or decent life can be made better.
The idea is that everyone's life, apart from Christ, no matter whether rich or poor, happy or miserable, healthy or sick, educated or not will always end in the judgement of an eternal sentence of "Guilty", given by a righteous judge!!
People have to be brought to the realization that they have NO defense in the courtroom to come; nothing in THIS world will be given in exchange for a pardon.

Chip

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I want to share a thought, it will be no use for me to try and win an argument here, I'm not trying to but if I can show something about God which I know is true and which I see fully borne out in scripture [perhaps not thoroughly thrashed out yet] here goes-remember I am just throwing a thought in.
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Scripture base. Acts.c10vs1-4.
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, a devout man and one that feared God with all his house which gave much alms to the people and prayed to God alway.
He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him and saying unto him "Cornelius."
And when he looked on him he was afraid and said "what is it Lord?" And he said unto him "thy prayers and thine arms are come up for a memorial be fore God.
verse 34-36
Then Peter opened his mouth and said "of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons but in every nation, he that feareth Him and worketh righteousness is accepted with Him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel preaching peace by Jesus Christ [He is Lord of all]
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I recently saw a vid on u tube called "Billy Graham is going to hell" I'm sure not many people agree with that but there is a loud and vociferous body of people who do. Besides them there are a number of more moderate bible believers who would strongly disapprove of what Billy said in an interview with that old fox Schuler regarding "the wider hope." In a way Schuler tricked the aging evangelist into saying a form of words that doesn't really represent what Billy believes or what he has preached during a long and fruitful life of serving the Lord in the Gospel [Dear Lord give me the 'nth 01 part of a fraction of souls that Billy has won for the kingdom] how any American christian can reproach Billy Graham is to their shame, and I have different opinions about Billys theological stance and methods-theology affects methods- but I love Billy.
What Billy said in a way is not terribly far away from Paul said in Romans ch.2vs14-16. For when the gentiles which have not the law do by nature the things contained in the law,these, having not the law are a law unto themselves, which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to the gospel that I preach.
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You see what I am saying about Cornelius is God sees the good works that people do, in every nation, He hears peoples prayers-we say God is just and must be just or else how could He be God? then how can He overlook good works that people do and be just?-You can't have it both ways dearies, if He is just and must punish sin, and I do not disagree with that, but then He also must see and reward the good that people do.
I discovered this tension very early on in evangelism, how DO you tell the little nursy who perhaps could have done a lot better for herself career wise but she loves people and wants to rather reach out and help and bring healing for a lot less personal reward? how do you say God is going to condemn such an one.
Now hang on just a bit.
I believe in the case of Cornelius shows that God went to extraordinary lengths to get the gospel to him whereby he [believing it] must be saved, thank God the church was moving in visions and supernatural workings of the Holy Spirit, thank God for the faithfulness in prayer of Peter, this is the church in action as it ought to be, we will yet see again such a church, look at the great strides that have been made by supernatural ministries in India and Africa. We won't kid ourselves that we are yet on a par with the apostolic church, but there is much to rejoice.
Although I believe that there IS to be a solemn day of judgement, hell truly DOES exists in all the fearfulness described in the bible-I believe if I were not saved I would personally have gone there-but the thought I want to share is that this is not so black/white as it is presented by most evangelicals.
I can show it from the scripture, I did so on a very Calvinistic forum and not one of the theological doctors and liguistic scholars etc could throw down my argument, all they could say was no, no, you're wrong, you're wrong, SHUT UP. then they chucked me off ;)
You see they have their doctrines just as the Pharisees did [and I am not saying they are insincere or not saved] but when you study the bible through a mindset, a paradigm, then you overlook whole swathes of truth like Cornelius, [because they were arguing as Calvinists do that God does not answer the prayers of the unsaved] You glance over scripture like "who-so-ever gives one of My disciples so much as a cup of water because he is a disciple shall by no means lose his reward."
To sum up I would re-emphasise that the message of Paul's sermons in acts was the facts that a Saviour has come and that He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I think it is right that people should know that there is a kingdom to be gained and a hell to be avoided but I cannot feel qualified to judge who is going to go there, only I would say that I feel sure that I would have, had the Lord not had mercy on me.
I am not against preaching eternal punishment but the manner in which it is preached. And I earnestly believed if a doctrine is distorted it gives the devil a foothold and grounds whereby he can 1) fight a successsful campaign against a doctrine [as in univeralism, the Oprah Winfield stuff and 2) he can drive people away from hearing a message that is abhorrent to them when otherwise they might listen.
What I am appealing is for a tidying up of the negative truths of the gospel message and a more scriptural balance.
Now a bombshell, [help! I'm a heretic] God is going to create a NEW heaven and a NEW earth. Well you say we all know that, well if the regeneration are to dwell and reign with Him in heaven, who do you think will dwell in this new earth? not sinners I grant but then sin will have been abolished, and if the righteous sheep cannot be identified with "these my brethren" who are the church, then who are the righteous sheep? I say they are the meek who will inherit the earth. This is a THIRD WAY and is different to the universalist argument and different to the extreme fundamentalist argument [and sometimes not so extreme fundamentalist] my trouble is that I can see it in scripture but I don't know anybody else who can.
If it is so then there is certainly to be an age to come after this present gospel age, the millennial age, which also is a gospel age but when the kingdom of God will be manifest and triumphant-a glorious age of peace and righteousness.

#7 chipwag64

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 01:01 PM

Totton,

I am not sure I understand you correctly, what you are saying.
It almost sounds as if you believe there are three classes of people in the world; the believers who are saved by the blood of Christ and headed for heaven, the unbelievers who are on the wide road to hell, and a people who are saved from hell by good deeds, but not by faith in Christ, who will live in the new earth?
Just trying to understand what you are saying here.

Chip

#8 the totton linnet

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 03:52 PM

Totton,

I am not sure I understand you correctly, what you are saying.
It almost sounds as if you believe there are three classes of people in the world; the believers who are saved by the blood of Christ and headed for heaven, the unbelievers who are on the wide road to hell, and a people who are saved from hell by good deeds, but not by faith in Christ, who will live in the new earth?
Just trying to understand what you are saying here.

Chip

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Hi
Let me clean my tail a bit, 1) I do most fervently believe there is to be the day of judgement and it will be a fearful day 2) I do most fervently believe that on that day the wicked will be turned into hell, while I sorrow I also rejoice that sin and evil will be put away forever and God's justice will be vindicated.
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Let me give a brief exegesis of Matthew 25v31-46
When the Son of man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him
(The word angels here is important because in the original the same word can be translated holy ones or saints, now we are told that we who have followed Christ in regeneration are passed over in this judgement, we have already been judged, found guilty, condemned in Christ and by faith were crucified with Him and have been raised to newness of life in His resurrection.
We are also told that when He comes to judge He brings us with Him, according to Corinthians and Thess. "do you not know" Paul asks "that the saints are to judge the world?" so I take the view that the translation should be SAINTS and not angels)
Before Him will be gathered all the nations and He will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, He will place the sheep at His right hand but the goats onat the left
Then the King will say to those on the right hand "Come o blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..."
(notice He says blessed of MY Father, not your Father or our Father or even the Father)
"...for I was hungry and ye gave Me food...." etc
vs37
Then the righteous will answer Him "Lord when did we see Thee hungry....."etc
vs40
And the King will answer "Truly I say to you as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren you did it to Me..."
(There is no recognition between the righteous sheep and "these My brethren" or any recognition of the doctrine of the indwelling Christ in them. It just does not make good exegesis to say anything different than that these are two separate groups. It doesn't even make sensible reading)
Therefore I say that the sheep and the goats are being judged according to how they have treated the saints which is 100 per cent in line with all the other scriptures which deal with the last judgement.
Also bear in mind that if these sheep were the saints then they are being saved by good works and not by grace unmerited.
Still they are being judged by the gospel and by Jesus Christ.
What doesn't make sense is to suppose that the King gathers the sheep on His right hand and then begins to judge them by how they have treated themselves, or then would He not then turn to the goats and judge them by how they have dealt with the sheep, but they also are judged by how they treated "these My brethren"
Now I am not proposing that these inherit the kingdom of heaven with the saints "blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" but "blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth"
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Those who hold dispensationalist views will interpret this scripture differently, I do not hold those views.

#9 CTD

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 09:28 PM

And the response to "I don't need to repent and be saved. I can just squeak by and make it into the new earth." would be?

#10 the totton linnet

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 06:25 AM

And the response to "I don't need to repent and be saved. I can just squeak by and make it into the new earth." would be?

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Hi CTD
OK so what is your response now when people respond in a flippant manner? it's hardly a modern phenomena that people regard even the most dire threatenings with a cheery wave, I think [to me] the thought that each man and woman must one day appear before Almighty God to give account of all they have done is more to the point of what really affects people than anything, I think there is within all of us a recognition that what we do must have consequences and we must one day answer for it.
My own personal line is "well most people think I'm an ordinary, good sort of girl, but I don't think I would like to stand before God as my Judge if I were not sure that Jesus had already been judged and punished on my behalf."
People know what they have done and are doing in their lives, even in a tiny place like my home town I am sure I am rubbing shoulders with murderers, rapers, destroyers of young lives through s@x perversion and drugs.
I want to interject something, because no evangelism or witness is of any use what-so-ever unless the Holy Ghost is working with us, Jesus said that it is He who convicts the world of sin, I see a lot of jumping up and down and angriness in evangelism that is born of trying "in the flesh" to bring some kind of fear and conviction into people.
When we share the gospel, in whatever portion of it we share we must be in total reliance that, speaking in the very Presence of God, He will 1) give us that word which He would have the people recieve 2) that He will take His word and make it effective.
See one of the things that bothered me with the vid was the absolute rigidity of the formula, but sometimes Jesus cried out "Any one athirst? let him come to Me and drink"
How in that vid they just scooted over the Lord's dealing with the woman of Samaria to zero in on her supposed, I don't know what it was adultery? infidelity? prostitution? actually Jesus doesn't accuse her of any of those things. Oohh what about the water He promised her which if anyone drink they will never thirst again, what about the well of water springing up into everlasting life? this is the good news and boy didn't she bite, sure she did cos the Holy Ghost was there to make it real to her, I wouldn't be surprise if she didn't drool as the Lord spoke to her. This is what I'm trying to show.
God's word is EVERY bit as powerful when you share the GOOD stuff of the GOOD news to needy people-and people ARE needy and they are all around us.
The same people who rejected John the Baptist's message-and he was the very last in the line of old testament prophets-rejected Christ's message also.
Of course if we ain't experiencing within ourselves the water of life in us as a well springing up into everlasting life we can't share it, instead of giving the servants and handmaids their due portion in season we must beat them and flog them into submission.
Now nobody is more aware than I am that in order for any real and meaningful blessing to come to people they must needs to repent, they must come to the cross for the washing away of sins, therefore the cross IS the source of blessing not condemnation, it is there that wall of partition was broken down and the emnity with God [that is the cause of ALL mans grief] was put aside-what a message this is. This is the message that will bring miracles, healing, deliverance and salvation, this is the message that turned the multitudes both of men and women to the Lord in the early days. But I tell you that in order to preach it you must put away all wrath and malice, you can't preach it angry-except angry at the devil and all the mis-conceptions he puts in the way of people even giving you a fair hearing-
I was sharing with a waitress who works nearby where I work and we had become buddies, she didn't know why she was attracted to me, she is just an ordinary wild living pretty Brit girl you meet her everywhere, a night time binger. She was sharing how hurt she was when her schoolgirl first love and she broke up, how empty it had left her. I asked her if I might pay for her, she giggled a bit but consented. I place my hand on her head and prayed "Dear Jesus fulfil this life."
A couple of weeks later I went in and asked after her and they said "oh she's gone.....GONE? gone where?....she's gone back home to Eastbourne, apparently her ex-boyfriend came looking for her so she went off with him, they are going to get married." Now you will say oh but she didn't get saved, no, but give it time, she will never forget that someone prayed for her in Jesus name and good things started to happen.

#11 the totton linnet

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 10:08 AM

Right at the risk of making everyone sick of the sight of me, here we go again, I've already indicated the weakness of my argument but I am thrashing it out as I go I utterly believe the scriptures and like anyone else if I see things I don't understand I may cry to the Lord about it but at the end of the day without bending and twisting the scripture to fit my liking, I accept it and commit it to God Who I am sure knows best. But FIRST let me be sure what it DOES say and not what Calvin or Arminus or Darby want it to say, or even Iraeneus or Justyn Martyr.
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"If anyone give to one of these little ones so much as a cup of cold water, because he is a disciple, truly I say unto you he shall by no means lose his reward."
This is a very isolated word in the gospel but it is a VERY strong word, it may be argued that the Lord is saying that such a one would surely be given a chance to hear and respond to the gospel.
That is a reasonable comment and I am sure many who are in a doctrinal mindset would argue it. I don't believe that's what the Lord is saying.
The great scripture that the Universalists use and beat to death because it is the only one they can find is in 1. Timothy c4vs10...because we trust in the Living God Who is the Saviour of all men, specially those who believe.
They try to make this mean that everyone is going to be saved, I utterly reject that but yet it needs looking at.
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Right on to the other great new testament passage that deals with the last judgement Revelations c20vs11-15 the great white throne judgement. I am sure everyone will agree this is the same judgement that Jesus told about in Matthew c25 the sheep and goats.
It does not matter what particular eschatological school you belong to, you can be pre/post trib, mid trib, pre/post millen, Darbyite dispensationalist , any which how's yer father you like, christians are not judged here. All the apostles allude to a judgement that christians must face and those scriptures ought to be looked at but this is not that judgement.
This judgement comes after the great persecution, the destruction of Antichrist, the binding of Satan, the 1,000 year reign.
The church has been raptured, the dead in Christ have been raised first and then those who were yet alive at the Lord's coming were caught up together with them in the air SO SHALL WE ALWAYS BE WITH HIM-hallelujah
in verse 4 of chapter 20. And I saw thrones and seated on them were those to whom authority to judge was commited. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God and who had not worshipped the beast or it's image and had not recieved it's mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a 1000 years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years were ended. This is the first resurrection blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection.
That is the resurrection of the church and the rapture. After the 1000 year reign Satan is loosed he goes forth to decieve the nations once more, is defeated and finally he and all his cohorts are cast into the lake of fire.
Now we come to verse 11 and the great white throne and He that sat upon it, from His Presence earth and sky fled away and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small standing before the throne and books were opened. Then another book ws opened which is the Lamb's book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them and they were judged, each one of them according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name wes not found written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Chapter 21 deals with the new heaven and the new earth.
What is clear to me, though others will form their own judgements is that this great white throne judgement does not involve the saints, they are not the ones being judged here, they were in the first resurrection, this is the second and final resurrection and the people were being judged according to their works, what they had done, and there was a book of life. Now I have to say that it does NOT say anybody's name was written therein nor does it tell what happened to any whose names may have been therein whereas it does tell the awful fate of those whose names were NOT written in the book of life. But that there WAS such a book or IS such a book would seem to suggest to me that some people will have their names written in it.

#12 chipwag64

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 10:09 AM

Totton,

I understand your position and your arguements regarding evangelism, and I posted before about having a proper balance in doing so.
Jesus DID tell the woman of Samaria that she sinned and that she was to go and sin no more, there was the acknowledgment of sin and also the grace of forgiveness in one discourse; a beautiful picture of balance.
The cross is NOT just a symbol of love and forgiveness.
The cross is a multi-faceted picture of pain and suffering, wrath and judgment and death; but just as telling is the picture of healing and cleansing, love and mercy, forgiveness and life.
Who knows what became of your waitress friend; it would be absolutely wonderful if she did become saved through your loving talks with her.
BUT, if all she wanted was her boyfriend back and nothing more, and she never repents and becomes saved, well, she may have filled a whole in her heart that maybe God was calling her to Himself through, who knows?
Please don't think that I am implying anything or that you should have done things differently, not at all.
The thing is, God calls us to Himself in many ways.We don't know who He is working on and when, so, in light of this, the WHOLE gospel needs to be preached in it's entirety so that people who are looking for help with earthly things also understand that heavenly things are much more important.
Remember, seek ye first the Kingdom of God, THEN all these things will be added unto you.
I am still wondering if I understood your position on the different classes of people though.

Chip

BTW, "hell-fire" and "damnation" preachers don't have to be uncivil at all to get the message across, some of us do it with fear and love as it only should be done.

#13 Adam Nagy

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 10:34 AM

I believe their are many loving and well meaning believers who give up part of their ministerial arsenal, so to speak, not because of a scriptural mandate but a cultural climate...

Totten, we have a good working relationship. I would like your opinion about how Mark Driscoll approaches the very issue of balance that we're discussing here. I find his perspective especially anointed for addressing our cultural hang-ups:

http://www.evolution...?showtopic=2315

#14 Adam Nagy

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 10:46 AM

I want to add to what Chip said, that people need to realize that ministry in the evangelical sense is not one size fits all. Chip hit on this and I want to add to what he said with an illustration. It's easy to take your own experience and incorrectly believe it applies universally. What does this mean?

If an individual was reached by someone who showed tenderness and compassion without much direct ministry, they may believe that all cases simply require tenderness and compassion without much direct ministry. If someone was reached with the glaring threat of damnation and bold exposure of their sinful nature, they may believe that all cases simply require the glaring threat of damnation and bold exposure of their sinful nature. If someone was reached with an intellectual argument that exposed a deep seeded philosophical flaw, they may believe that all cases simply require an intellectual argument that exposes deep seeded philosophical flaws.

Do you see an overly narrow pattern here? Our goal should be to abide in the Word of God, be lead by His Holy Spirit, and not necessarily over simplify things based on personal experiences.

#15 the totton linnet

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 11:37 AM

Totton,

I understand your position and your arguements regarding evangelism, and I posted before about having a proper balance in doing so.
Jesus DID tell the woman of Samaria that she sinned and that she was to go and sin no more, there was the acknowledgment of sin and also the grace of forgiveness in one discourse; a beautiful picture of balance.
The cross is NOT just a symbol of love and forgiveness.
The cross is a multi-faceted picture of pain and suffering, wrath and judgment and death; but just as telling is the picture of healing and cleansing, love and mercy, forgiveness and life.
Who knows what became of your waitress friend; it would be absolutely wonderful if she did become saved through your loving talks with her.
BUT, if all she wanted was her boyfriend back and nothing more, and she never repents and becomes saved, well, she may have filled a whole in her heart that maybe God was calling her to Himself through, who knows?
Please don't think that I am implying anything or that you should have done things differently, not at all.
The thing is, God calls us to Himself in many ways.We don't know who He is working on and when, so, in light of this, the WHOLE gospel needs to be preached in it's entirety so that people who are looking for help with earthly things also understand that heavenly things are much more important.
Remember, seek ye first the Kingdom of God, THEN all these things will be added unto you.
I am still wondering if I understood your position on the different classes of people though.

Chip

BTW, "hell-fire" and "damnation" preachers don't have to be uncivil at all to get the message across, some of us do it with fear and love as it only should be done.

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Hi
You mixed 2 stories together there with the woman at the well and the woman caught in adultery [I wonder where the man adulterer was] In either case Jesus did not condemn-"Go and sin no more" is a good message.
I repeat over and over that I believe in the washing away of sins at the cross, the new birth, the indwelling Christ.
Sometimes if you are sensitive to God's leading you will know when you are sharing with people that they are not ready to be saved, as was the case with my waitress friend. Believe in the Holy Ghost, believe He is working with you and working in the hearts of people you are sharing with, believe He will send others along who can perhaps reap the fruit of the seeds you have sown.
Also if she does indeed get married she will be bringing her life into a much better style of living than she had previously and more in line with the gospel.
Remember to keep people in prayer after you have shared as much as you should, if God had told me to shove 6 chapters of Romans down her neck I would have, He had me pray for her instead, whose servant I am.
I preach the cross, I preach the wrath of God, He bore it for me, is there pain? sorrow? distress? "He hath borne our sorrows and carried our griefs" it IS all mercy and love. The judgement that belonged to me fell on Him.
I say to people constantly SHOW ME, show me in the gospels or the book of acts, go to, go to, read for yourselves when Jesus met Peter, when He called James and John, when He met Nathaniel, when He call Matthew, that old rascal Zacheus in the tree. You can't show me where He brought them to account, go through the encounters in the book of acts. Did all these repent? sure they did. When Peter saw that draught of fishes he fell on his knees and said "oh Lord depart from me a sinful man."
Read the sermons in acts.
I was at a prayer meeting recently where they were praying because a six year old boy was excluded because he was going around telling all his little buddies if they did not repent Jesus would send them to hell. These good charismatic folk were outraged that the authorities should behave in such a way, but they said the little guy is not daunted he now stands at the school gates telling the kiddies as they come out that they will be damned if they don't believe, and everyone said "praise the Lord" I said "why praise the Lord?"
I do not blame the lad, no, no, but couldn't he have picked up a better message than that from his Sunday school? it makes my toes curl up, we recently had over here a couple of sunday school teachers who when one of the little lambs asked about a certain star who had died was sent home in a flood of tears at being told that the said star was now roasting in hell.
I know you do not advocate such a way, I can tell you have a balanced approach, never the less not all do.
Achilles was a great warrior in the Trojan wars, he was invincible in every way except this, he had a weak heel, anybody who discovered it was able to overthrow him. What I say is that this doctrine of eternal punishment in the way it is held and the way it is preached is the soft underbelly of the evangelical church and the devil knows it and he mounts a ferocious attack upon it and IS in fact winning the argument-that is what this Oprah Winfield stuff is all about.
I go back to my point, IF God is just [and we know He is] and He must punish the wicked, not even those little kiddies would argue that the wicked should go unpunished, it is perfectly plain and fair to all, well then He would not be just if He did not reward the good. I think I see in the scripture that He WILL reward the good deeds people have done.
I don't have a thing in the world against the doctrine that God will punish the wicked-it's the "believe or be damned" message that is causing the problem and which makes evangelism so difficult and more and more difficult to the point of near impossibility-I do not see it in the scriptures, not as it relates to the actual sharing of the gospel.

#16 the totton linnet

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 11:51 AM

I want to add to what Chip said, that people need to realize that ministry in the evangelical sense is not one size fits all. Chip hit on this and I want to add to what he said with an illustration. It's easy to take your own experience and incorrectly believe it applies universally. What does this mean?

If an individual was reached by someone who showed tenderness and compassion without much direct ministry, they may believe that all cases simply require tenderness and compassion without much direct ministry. If someone was reached with the glaring threat of damnation and bold exposure of their sinful  nature, they may believe that all cases simply require the glaring threat of damnation and bold exposure of their sinful  nature. If someone was reached with an intellectual argument that exposed a deep seeded philosophical flaw, they may believe that all cases simply require an intellectual argument that exposes deep seeded philosophical flaws.

Do you see an overly narrow pattern here? Our goal should be to abide in the Word of God, be lead by His Holy Spirit, and not necessarily over simplify things based on personal experiences.

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Dearest Beloved Adam you are stating my case not yours, it is there right there on those vids, one shoe fits all cases. And I would add far from being revolutionary they are preaching exactly what-the more hardline admittedly-evangelicals DO preach. But it is these hyper types that are so loud and vociferous that we all get tarred with the same brush. hmm however I will probably best rest my case. FOR NOW! :P

#17 Adam Nagy

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 12:39 PM

Dearest Beloved Adam you are stating my case not yours...

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I can see why you would think that but the one sided part that I refer to is someone thinking that grace is both good for the humble and the proud. People who are proud will always trample on the salvation message, based on kindness alone, because they are prideful in their sin. We are told to show them that sin is exceedingly sinful. How can we do that without recognizing that the Law is good when it is used for it's purpose?

But we know that the law is good , if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Remember Paul is talking in the New Covenant context. This scriptures is based on how a believer is to convey the message after Christ's atonement on the cross.

Without that key element, the gospel message is not 'gospel' or good news because it makes no sense.

Let me ask you this. When someone is saved, what are they saved from? Do they have to be saved before this truth is revealed to them by an evangelical believer?

#18 CTD

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 02:38 PM

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Hi CTD
OK so what is your response now when people respond in a flippant manner?

You may review my history and see for yourself how I tend to respond in certain situations.

I have encountered this idea of a "second-class salvation" before, and it has severe problems. This problem is taken from the real world, as a matter of fact.

A man I've seen a handful of times over several years believes he has some sort of second-class ticket to inherit an earth reserved for those who "aren't good enough" for heaven. When he first "discovered" second-class salvation, he gave up drugs and drinking, but later he decided he didn't need to give up such things. After all, he's satisfied with escaping punishment.

He has no interest in scripture, since that's "for Christains who are going to heaven". Claims he discovered the loophole himself, and then had it confirmed by someone with a degree in theology.

After seeing your opinion on alter calls, I would not expect you to support teaching that would lead people into such a dangerous delusional state. Before you claim it doesn't lead there, you better have some sort of answer to the question I posted.

And the response to "I don't need to repent and be saved. I can just squeak by and make it into the new earth." would be?

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See, that's what people think when you teach that "second class salvation" is available. Who in their right mind would dare even "aspire" to first class? What sinner, understanding sin and guilt, could ever hope to be "good enough"?

Now nobody is more aware than I am that in order for any real and meaningful blessing to come to people they must needs to repent, they must come to the cross for the washing away of sins, therefore the cross IS the source of blessing not condemnation, it is there that wall of partition was broken down and the emnity with God [that is the cause of ALL mans grief] was put aside-what a message this is. This is the message that will bring miracles, healing, deliverance and salvation, this is the message that turned the multitudes both of men and women to the Lord in the early days. But I tell you that in order to preach it you must put away all wrath and malice, you can't preach it angry-except angry at the devil and all the mis-conceptions he puts in the way of people even giving you a fair hearing-

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They must repent and be born again. Nothing else will do. There is no neutrality, there is no half salvation.

#19 Dave

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 04:47 PM

Hello all,

Again, a major misunderstanding of God's word comes about because of a misinterpretation of scripture.

I encourage everyone here to reread Matthew 25 with the view in mind that Jesus is answering his disciples' questions about the last days, the End Times, His Second Coming.

The "Sheep and Goats" passage has nothing to do with salvation, the Great White Throne Judgment or the Judgment Seat of Christ. There is no hidden meaning to the sheep and goats, as Christ spells out Himself who they are, and who the brethren are.

In short, it is the waning days of the 7-year tribulation. The sheep are those who remain alive after persecution who refused to worship the antichrist (Satan), and who aided the brethren. The goats are those who are alive at the end of the tribulation who took the mark of the beast, and who persecuted the brethren (the chosen people of God, the Jews). They are real people, alive -- not allegorical or a parable.

The "goats" are cast into the Lake of Fire. The "sheep" go on to populate the world during the Millennial reign of Christ.

Pick up any good study Bible and read the commentaries. They all agree with this interpretation.

The ones who come up with a different reading of Matthew 25 do so because they have severe problems with the rest of God's word and must torture Jesus' plain words to fit their own agenda.

My favorite Bible teacher, Chuck Missler, is fond of saying that if you torture scripture long enough you can make it say anything you want. The "Sheep and Goats" of Matthew 25 has been tortured to death.

Dave

#20 the totton linnet

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 04:59 PM

You may review my history and see for yourself how I tend to respond in certain situations.

I have encountered this idea of a "second-class salvation" before, and it has severe problems. This problem is taken from the real world, as a matter of fact.

A man I've seen a handful of times over several years believes he has some sort of second-class ticket to inherit an earth reserved for those who "aren't good enough" for heaven. When he first "discovered" second-class salvation, he gave up drugs and drinking, but later he decided he didn't need to give up such things. After all, he's satisfied with escaping punishment.

He has no interest in scripture, since that's "for Christains who are going to heaven". Claims he discovered the loophole himself, and then had it confirmed by someone with a degree in theology.

After seeing your opinion on alter calls, I would not expect you to support teaching that would lead people into such a dangerous delusional state. Before you claim it doesn't lead there, you better have some sort of answer to the question I posted.
See, that's what people think when you teach that "second class salvation" is available. Who in their right mind would dare even "aspire" to first class? What sinner, understanding sin and guilt, could ever hope to be "good enough"?
They must repent and be born again. Nothing else will do. There is no neutrality, there is no half salvation.

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My answer is exactly the same, I am not better than the apostle Paul, I'm still struggling to get to grips with his teachings, but people took his teaching on grace and twisted it to mean that once they were saved they could live in sin, was that Paul's fault?
What nobody is doing is looking at the scripture I've given and giving a satisfactory exegesis, if you can show me it is wrong I will submit to it-better be good mind-
Also respectfully, I am not preaching anything different than the salvation I have recieved, regeneration, the kingdom of God, what I am saying here is why I do NOT believe the "believe or be damned" message AS IT IS held and preached and beloved of so many evangelicals but not, I am trying to point out, as it was preached in the gospels or the book of acts by the apostles. I accept as Chip says that not all evangelicals preach it that way, I have thoroughly been enjoying watching the earlier ministry of Billy Graham on u tube [never actually having heard him preach before] but he is hardly the favourite of the fundies is he? even though he has led so many to the Lord-yes I disagree with his altar calls, but wow if only I could be used in the way he has been used.
I have met a guy who stood forward at a B.G. meeting who is living in sin who claims he is saved cos he came forward, Billy himself talks about the drunk he met on an airplane who was going all around the plane telling everyone how he was "shaved through Billy Graham" :P that isn't what Billy preaches so he can't be blamed.




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