I don't have to get circumcised or keep festivals is because that was part of the ceremonial law, it was not on the Ten Commandments. I have not preformed great things through the Holy Spirit that just goes to show how much more I need to search for God. How many times must I repeat myself? The two laws are separate!
Fact: The Sabbath law was for Israel and was a perpetual covenant.
”’Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath… throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever…’” Ex. 31:16-17.
Tubal, can you agree with me and God that Sabbath law is perpetual and for the nation of Israel only?
Fact: The same God who gave Israel Sabbath law also gave Israel the law of circumcision—which is for Israel only and is perpetual?
Abraham and all his descendants had to circumcise (Gen. 17:10). God said that circumcision is “an everlasting covenant” (Gen. 17:9, 13). Now while the New Testament uses “circumcision… of the heart” (Rom. 2:29) as a metaphor, the Old Testament does so three times (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4). But such usage does not negate the requirement for Israel to obey God’s command to circumcise in either testament. God gave many commands to Israel as “perpetual statutes” which He withheld from the Body of Christ. While He made circumcision an “everlasting covenant” for Abraham and his descendants “throughout their generations” (Gen. 17:9, 13), He forbids circumcision for Christians today as a religious rite (Gal. 5:2-3; 3:10; Acts 15:24).
Tubal, can you agree with me and God that the covenant of circumcision was for Israel only and was perpetual?
Fact: He also told Israel to observe the Day of Atonement forever: “It [the Day of Atonement] is a Sabbath of solemn rest for you…. It is a statute forever” (Lev. 16:31).
Tubal, will you agree with me and God that the Feast of Atonement is for Israel only and is perpetual?
Fact: To save space, I do not want to quote all of Israel’s tithing laws. If all you are presently doing is tithing ten percent, then you are not keeping all of Israel’s tithing laws.
Challenge: Can you find any tithing laws in Paul’s writings?
Challenge: Can you name one man in the last 2,000 years who has done greater miracles than Jesus Christ? If you can’t, why can’t you?
Challenge: Can you name one man who was raised from the dead since the Peter and Paul? If you can’t, why can’t you? (Note: I’m not talking about resurrection in the sense that we will never die again.)
Challenge: You claim that if you strengthen your faith, then you will be able to do greater miracles than Jesus Christ (as He promised). But in the last 2,000 years, no one has done greater miracles than Jesus. Shouldn’t you rethink your position?
Challenge: Do you know of anyone who, through faith, has been able to drink poison and get bit by Texas Diamondbacks with immunity?
Why are you not concerned that the meat you eat was sacrificed to idols? Jesus scolded the Church at Pergamos for doing so (Rev. 2:1).
No! Not according to me, but according to God and His word. Jesus said, “I have come only to the house of Israel. When He sent out His apostles to preach the gospel of the kingdom, He instructed them not to go to Gentiles or Samaritans, but only to the house of Israel. In the first chapter of Acts, He forbid them from going to any Gentiles but to Israel first and then Samaritans (half Jewish).
So according to you then Jesus didn't want a single Gentile to be saved because he didn't preach once to them.
Jubal, this is going to shock you. Are you sitting down? Other than Peter being dragged kicking and screaming to witness to one Gentile (the centurion Cornelius), there is no Biblical record of any of the Twelve witnessing to one Gentile—not one. And God did this to show Peter than Israel was cut off as a nation and that their promised kingdom was not going to happen. Why is this true? Because the Holy Spirit fell on the Gentiles WITHOUT THEM BEING CIRCUMCISED. Up to this point in time in the life of Peter or any Jew, Gentiles had to approach God through the nation of Israel—get circumcised and keep the law.
A careful reading of the first half of the Book of Acts will reveal that Jesus’ return was contingent on Israel, as a nation, accepting their risen Messiah (see Acts 3:19-21 for example).
Did Paul teach that you have to get circumcised? If not, why not? Paul’s gospel is not hard to understand unless you’re a legalist—which you and Peter are.
Again, I have said this many times. The law does not save nor count towards grace. Grace saves but if you are under grace you will keep the law because if you break the law you are removed from grace, go read the references I used from Paul last post. With all honesty and no insult intended, Paul's gospel is not a new gospel but you have distorted it as Peter said many do. Paul can not contradict the Bible, to base this doctrine solely on Paul shows that you are the one mistaken not he.
That “God’s law was a test of obedience” is arbitrary conjecture on your part. “Not a single text.” Let’s note the similarity between the Tree and the Law:
The tree in the garden was a test, God's law is his test of obedience towards him. Question. Why did God need a test if there was no sin? Do not think that because you are saved by grace you have no need of the law because you will be lost. If there is no law there is no sin. So since you can't keep the law, rather than live by the Spirit keeping all of God's commandments you'd rather get rid of them?! There is not a single text in scripture supporting you brother TeeJay!
Serpent to Eve:
“Eat from the Tree”
Legalist to Believer:
“Keep the Law”
God: Do not eat from the tree lest
you die. Gen. 2:17
Serpent: You will not surely die.
God: The law is a “ministry of
Death” 2 Cor. 3:7
Legalist: You will not surely die.
Serpent: The tree will open your
eyes and you will know
good and evil. Gen. 3:5
Legalist: The law will open your
eyes and you will know
good and evil.
Serpent: Eat from the tree and you
will be like God. Gen. 3:5
Legalist: Keep the law and you will
be holy like God.
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Law
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a ministry of death (Gen. 2:17). Partaking of it yields death. The Tree is not the only biblical entry rightly described as the ministry of death, however. Paul calls the Ten Commandments “the ministry of death.”
…the ministry of death [was] written and engraved on stones [Ten Commandments]. 2 Cor. 3:7
The Ten Commandments are the only commands in the entire Bible that are written and engraved on stone. Now compare the Tree and the law. “In the day that you partake of it, you shall die,” God warned of the Tree (Gen. 2:17). He could have warned of the law with the same words, “In the day that you partake of the law, you will surely die.” The passages below confirm this concept:
…apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. Rom. 7:8-9
And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Rom. 7:10-11
…sins which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to sin, producing death in me through [the law], so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. Rom. 7:13
After reading the nest passage, no Christian can ever again appeal to the law for help in achieving righteousness. By the same token, believers unschooled in the danger of the law are shocked by the following verse:
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
1 Cor. 15:56
That the very existence of this verse is a surprise, and that its meaning is inexplicable to so many believers is an indictment of the teachings of today’s Christian church.
The Law Gives Passion to Our Evil Desires
Because of our flesh, the law gave passion to our evil desires:
For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sins which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law… Rom. 7:5-6
The forbidden law becomes the forbidden fruit, the prize men lie, die, and kill for. A book on the shelf goes unnoticed by a child until the parent says, “Do not touch that book. Do not even look at it.” (Perhaps we should try this with the Bible.) Prohibition creates lust (Mark 7:36; Rom. 7:5). When I was a child, the Catholic Church had a “don’t go see list” for recently released films. It made $millions for the movie industry.
Because we still wrestle with the flesh, the law still has the same effect, arousing sinful passions. Believers have not been immunized from the deleterious effects of the law, but they have been delivered from the law.
A man who recovers from food poisoning cannot now safely eat spoiled meat, for he has not become immune to the toxin. So too Christians are not to partake of the law or have fellowship with the deadly ministry of the law. Christians are simply “delivered from the law” and as such should not return to that which God has delivered them from.
The Tree Represents the Law
When Adam ate of the Tree (the offense) death came to all men. Then God gave men the law, so that which began with the Tree, the offense, “might abound” (Rom. 5:20). The law picked up where the Tree left off. In other words, you want Tree and law, I’ll give you law!
The Tree and the law serve the same purpose. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents the law. The law furthered the function of the tree. The law resumed the ministry of the Tree, namely, the ministry of death. Both the Tree and the law present an alternative to God. Men must choose between life and death, between the Tree of Life (Jesus) and the Tree of Death, between God and the law.
“The first man Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45) was not to partake of the Tree; members of the Christ, “the last Adam” (1 Cor. 15:45), are not to partake of the law [1 Cor. 15:56; Gal 3:2-3, 24-25; 1 Tim. 1:9]. Both kill as surely as God said they would.
…through one man’s offense [death] came to all men…. Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound.
Rom. 5:18, 20
The Tree is not the only entity that will give the “Knowledge of Good and Evil.”
…by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20
The knowledge of good and evil is a synonym for the law (Rom. 2:20; 3:20; 5:20; Deut. 1:39; Isa. 7:16, [8:4, 16-18]; 1 Cor. 13:8; Hos. 4:6 and Mal. 2:7). Further, the law is the “key of knowledge.” For lawyers pervert the law and thereby take away the key of knowledge. When the Pope makes a proclamation against the death penalty for murders, h*m*sexuals, adulterers, kidnappers, he is perverting the law and taking away the key of knowledge. Why should h*m*sexuals repent if they are told they are most wonderful? He also profanes God (Ezek. 13:19) “killing people who should not die and keeping people alive who should not live.” As Jesus said:
“Woe to you lawyers [popes]! For you have taken away the key of knowledge.” Luke 11:52
When God’s law is weakened or negated (no death penalty for example), we also weaken God’s greatest evangelical tool. And when people see no righteous justice on earth, it is extremely difficult for them believe in a righteous and just God. Also, the death penalty is at the heart of the gospel of Jesus. God demanded the death penalty of His Son to balance the scales of justice and pay for our sins.
The law teaches the knowledge of good and evil. The tree leads to death, and the law leads to death, never to the Promised Land. God indicated this after He gave the law, the knowledge of good and evil, to Moses and Israel. Those that were given “the knowledge of good and evil” died in the wilderness. An uncircumcised (Josh. 5:5) nation (symbolically, those not of the law) were to enter the Promised Land.
Surely not one of these men of this evil generation shall see that good land of which I swore to give to your fathers… Moreover your little ones and your children [to young to be held responsible under the law], who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
Deut. 1:35, 39
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, that is, the law, hurts God’s people. It does not help. Adam was God’s person, and the Tree hurt him. Israel was God’s people, and the law hurt her. The day the law was given to Moses, “about three thousand men of the people fell that day” (Ex. 32:28). In symbolic contrast, the day the Spirit of Christ was given to Peter at Pentecost, “that day about three thousand souls were added” (Acts 2:41). Hence, “the letter [law] kills, but the Spirit gives life” (2 Cor. 3:6).
In 1 Corinthians 3:6, Christians often misinterpret the phrase, “The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” When Paul writes this, he does not mean that the “details” are harmful, but the “intention” is beneficial. Under the Gospel of Circumcision, it is the very details of the law that Jesus supported (Mat. 5:18) and even denounced whomever would break “one of the least” details of the law (Mat. 5:19). The letter is the law and the Spirit is God. In the very next sentence, Paul writes, “But if the ministry of death written and engraved on stones was glorious… (1 Cor. 3:7-8). The Ten Commandments are written and engraved on stone by the hand of God.
Let’s sum up:
Tree is the ministry of death. Gen. 2:17
The Law is the ministry of death. 2 Cor. 3:7
Do not partake of the Tree. Gen. 3:17
Do not partake of the Law. Rom. 7:6; 10:4
In the day you partake of the Tree, you will die. Gen. 2:17
In the day you partake of the Law, you will die. Rom. 7:9
By the Tree is the knowledge of sin. Gen. 3:22
By the Law is the knowledge of sin. Rom. 3:20; 7:78
The Tree brought the offense. Rom. 5:17
The Law made the offense abound. Rom. 5:20
The Tree’s curse died on the cross. Rom. 5:18-19
The Law was nailed to the cross. Col. 2:13-14, 16
The Tree of Life is in the new heaven. (Rev. 22:14), but not the Tree of Knowledge. (Ezek. 31:15; [Rev. 22:14])
The Law of the Spirit (Rom. 8:2) is in the new heaven, but not the Law of death (Rom. 8:2; 7:6).
Paul wrote, “Where there is no law, there is no transgression” (Rom. 4:15). Under Paul’s gospel of grace, there is no law for you to transgress. You have been “delivered from the ordinances that were against you” (unless you voluntarily put yourself back under the law). As far as your salvation not being a “permanent state”: This is true if you place yourself under Peter. If your salvation is contingent on good works and law keeping then salvation is not known until one dies. But, thank God, your apostle is Paul who teaches the complete opposite (see the following).
There is no condemnation under the law if you keep it, only if you break it. Salvation is not a permanent state, you can become lost after accepting Jesus. What Paul is talking about when he says law is the ceremonial law, to think other wise is impossible. The law of the sacrifice unto God condemns but if you accept Jesus as your sacrifice you are free from that law, the ceremonial law.
There would be no argument if only we could get rid of a troublesome little Jew named Saul of Tarsus (later renamed Paul, the “apostle to the Gentiles”):
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress . . .? Yet. . . we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom. 8:35, 37-39
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. Gal. 2:20
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. . . Eph. 1:13-14
For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. 2 Tim. 1:12
Then Paul points out that we are members of Jesus’ Body, and Jesus will not deny us because then He would be denying Himself:
If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself [i.e., His Body; however, He will deny (v. 12) certain rewards (vv. 5-7) to the [i]shameful (v. 15) believer]. 2 Tim. 1:12[/i]
Other Scripture that supports security of your salvation: 1 Cor. 5:5; Gal. 5:22-23; Eph. 2:6; 4:30; Phil. 1:6; Col. 3:3, 13; 2 Tim. 1:12.
No. We don’t get rid of it; we replace it. We replace the law with the Spirit of God. While the law is the forbidden fruit which “gives passion to our evil desires,” the Spirit of God should be our guide for righteous living. There was only one prohibitive law in the Garden: Do not partake of the Tree. Today there is only one law in the Body of Christ: Do not partake of the law. God does not desire a relationship with us based on law, but on love. The man who has never violated the law of adultery but lusts in his heart after his neighbors wife gets no praise from God. Why? Because he was not motivated by love for God and his wife but by the law. Make sense?
You have distorted Paul to perfection. So to make sure there is no transgression of the law we must get rid of it instead of keeping it? Does that make any sense? Can we do away with something God instituted.
Not by being placed under the law are we slaves to sin but by committing sin.
John 8:34 Tubal, you have to decide whether you are under law or grace, Israel or the Body, Peter or Paul. The word “grace” (in the sense of salvation) can’t be found anywhere but Paul’s writings
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
To whom was Hebrews written? Hint: See title at the top of page: “The Epistle to the Hebrews”
You have forgotten the encouraging words that God speaks to you as his children:
“My child, pay attention when the Lord disciplines you.
Don’t give up when he corrects you.
The Lord disciplines everyone he loves.He severely disciplines everyone he accepts as his child.”
Endure your discipline. God corrects you as a father corrects his children. All children are disciplined by their fathers. If you aren’t disciplined like the other children, you aren’t part of the family.
How is he going to discipline you if there is no law?
I think it is you who without cause or authority desires to do away with God's Ten Commandments. Paul never teaches to get rid of God's law, not once. If grace is all you need then why did he kick out some church members that were not keeping God's law?
You twist Paul unto your own destruction brother! The law is not for you, Tubal. When you accept Jesus, you have His righteousness. The law is good if one uses it lawfully (1 Tim. 1:8). If the law is not for you who are in Christ, then who is it for? See 1 Tim. 1:9-10).
On a previous thread, I tried to teach the dangers of not "rightly dividing" between Israel and the Body, Peter and Paul, law and grace. Failure to do so results in total confusion. As an example, Tubal, you don't even know if you are saved. And under the gospel of grace, if you don't know your are saved, you are not saved. I will be glad to teach you further on this, but if you've made up your mind to take the law into your bosom, then I must let you do so. But to the exent that you use the law as your motivation, to that extent, your walk with the Lord will be unfruitful.