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#121 CTD

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 08:45 PM

There you go.

Sinning is when you break Gods rules. Therefore, if AIDS is a byproduct of sin, then AIDS is Gods punishment for sin.

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That's your own reasoning - not Ron's.

Not all bad things are punishment. That's a very juvenile extrapolation you have made there, on your own.

If one jumps off a cliff and dies, is the death a natural result of the action or is it "a punishment"? I'm surprised an adult would even attempt to pass off such reasoning, let alone attribute it to another. Or at least I would be surprised in most contexts...

#122 CTD

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 09:15 PM

The reasoning of God's enemies is outrageously absurd.

God is supposed to protect them from the consequences of their own actions - always - or He is somehow wrong. God has made a provision, but rejecting Him and His provision should still have no consequences. Apparently He is their slave or something. It makes no sense at all.

Don't forget that this would require God, an entity with unlimited foresight, to create masters for Himself, a silly enough proposal, right? No, not yet. Not until we include the issues of justice and righteousness. A just, righteous God creates for Himself wicked masters, knowing in advance they will require Him to promote evil.

Review if you think I invented anything at all. This is exactly what God's enemies would have us believe. In the fields of arrogance and absurdity, who can rival them? Who can even aspire to compete?

#123 Ron

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 03:58 AM

That's your own reasoning - not Ron's.

Not all bad things are punishment. That's a very juvenile extrapolation you have made there, on your own.

If one jumps off a cliff and dies, is the death a natural result of the action or is it "a punishment"? I'm surprised an adult would even attempt to pass off such reasoning, let alone attribute it to another. Or at least I would be surprised in most contexts...

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I think the problem he's running into is the fact of cause and effect, and inductive wrong doing. People tend to blame God for the results of their proclivities. Then, turn around and say "There is no God!"

#124 ModusTollens

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 02:21 AM

AIDS is a result of drug use and has nothing to do with HIV.  Here are some interesting facts...
1.  nearly 90% of American AIDS cases are males.  No known infectious disease discriminates on gender.
2.  HIV has never been isolated from semen.
3.  AIDS has never been transmitted by a needlestick injury. (compare several thousand cases of hepatitis/year).
4.  AIDS has never been produced in laboratory animals. (50 chimpanzees inoculated with HIV 20 years ago...none have contracted AIDS)
5.  An "incubation period" of 10+ years for an infectious disease is difficult to believe.
6.  THere are numerous patients with all the symptoms and signs of classic AIDS that are HIV negative.
7.  THere is a virtual 100% correlation between AIDS and drug use.
8.  S@xual partners of male hemophiliacs are not getting AIDS.
9.  AIDS is virtually unknown in teenagers.  (A venereal disease that spares teenagers?)
10.  AIDS is not prevalent in female prostitutes.
11.  AIDS risk groups  (h*m*sexuals, IV drug abusers, hemophiliacs), each have different manifestations of AIDS.  For example, Kaposi's sarcoma is essentially non-existent in IV drug users that are not also h*mosexual. THis is consistent with a lifestyle disease rather than infectious, which would show no such discrimination.
12.  HIV has never been proven to cause AIDS.  HIV was announced as the cuprit at a press conference before the theory was ever subjected to peer review.
13.  The positive correlation between AIDS cases and HIV positivity is artificial...
    First, all AIDS patients have to be HIV positive by definition.
    Second, the kind of patients that get AIDS are at risk for all kinds of other    viral illnesses.  You'll also find a very strong correlation between AIDS and hepatitis B, but that in no way implies causation.

I personally heard Peter Duesberg speak to a group of pathologists  in 1993, and was intrigued by his theory.  I have since seen that everything he said was true.
I see the AIDS paradigm similar to the evolutionary paradigm.  Although accepted by a vast majority of researchers, the facts speak for themselves.  This tragedy underscores the importance of nonbiased thinking in science.  Regardless of how much "evidence" is out there supporting the HIV-AIDS hypothesis, the entire theory can be demonstrated to be false because of a few fatal flaws.
I was a pathology resident when AIDS was first described.  Many of its predictions proved false.  For example, it was predicted that AIDS would explode into the heterosexual population and teenagers.  This has definitely not happened. 
There are, by the way, a growing number of physicians that are seriously questioning the HIV/AIDS theory.  There are numerous HIV positive patients that are not getting sick, and it is more and more apparent that AIDS is not infectious.

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1) Worldwide, approximately 50% of AIDS patients are women. I don't know about the US specifically, but almost all deviation from the 50/50 split worldwide has been shown to be the result of S@xual practices within cultures.

2) HIV was isolated from both blood and semen as early as 1994

3) You are wrong. Hundreds of nurses/doctors and thousands of drug users are infected by needle stick injuries each year.

4) AIDS has never been produced in laboratory animals? Well not exactly the same kind of AIDS. HIV is Human Immunodeficiency Virus. Other animals have immunodeficiency viruses, but not the human variety. Cats get FIV, Feline Immunodeficiency Virus, etc.

5) The incubation period of HIV is 1 to 6 months, the incubation period of AIDS can be up to 10 years, but only in extraordinarily rare cases. 8 months is much more common, and 2 months is not rare.

6) Every single non-HIV case of "AIDS" has been shown to be spurious at best, and an outright misdiagnosis at worst. (Bird, 1992)

7) 100% correlation between AIDS and drug use? Drug use is a categorical variable, not viable to correlation. Your statement is false by definition (and even if we take your meaning as "association" rather than "correlation," your statement is false outright).

8) Clinical studies have indicated that about 20% of spouses of male hemophiliacs with HIV have caught the disease, too.

9) As of 2007, about 2 million people under age 15 were living with AIDS. It is the second most common cause of death worldwide in the 18-24 age group.

10) AIDS is hugely prevalent in female prostitutes; regular AIDS tests are mandatory for all female prostitutes in most regions where prostitution is legal because it is among the most commonly transferred STDs among this population.

11) I don't know much about the difference between "types" of AIDS and methods of infection...though I will say I doubt anyone using this forum (including myself) is really expert enough to draw conclusions from such data if it is true...I can't honestly say whether such a finding, if born out by research, would have any implications as to the nature of the virus.

12/13) http://www.avert.org...causes-aids.htm

#125 Ron

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 05:59 PM

Can you show me where I said "this is Gods punishment for h*m*s*xuality"? I believe it was you who made that assertion. Also, you may want to go back to the last page and re-read it. Getting your story straight may help you...

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There you go.

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And, as I stated, Anghellik9 was the one who blamed God for H*m*sexuals contracting aids. When, in fact, it was their own proclivities that brought it on. The problem lies with the relativists’ inability to accept the results of their actions.
And here we find Anghellik9 projecting onto me, his own assertions.

It's just one of the many symptoms in the epidemic known as sin. Hardly virtually unknown, hardly just aids, and hardly just teens.
When we start focusing on the real sickness, the root of the problem, then we'll make some headway into stemming the epidemic.


Sinning is when you break Gods rules. Therefore, if AIDS is a byproduct of sin, then AIDS is Gods punishment for sin.

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Sinning is when you go against what God said was evil and deadly. It’s like a warning sign that a bridge is out ahead, and yet the rebellious driver continues on ahead at breakneck speeds. Only to find them-selves hurt maimed or killed. Do we pass the buck and say it wasn’t the drivers own fault for the accident? NO!!!

#126 MamaElephant

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 06:13 PM


There you go.

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And, as I stated, Anghellik9 was the one who blamed God for h*m*sexuals contracting aids. When, in fact, it was their own proclivities that brought it on. The problem lies with the relativists’ inability to accept the results of their actions.

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Sinning is when you go against what God said was evil and deadly. It’s like a warning sign that a bridge is out ahead, and yet the rebellious driver continues on ahead at breakneck speeds. Only to find them-selves hurt maimed or killed. Do we pass the buck and say it wasn’t the drivers own fault for the accident? NO!!!

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Thank you Ron!

#127 Bex

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Posted 20 February 2011 - 08:06 PM

Good response Ron. It's interesting that one can claim "no belief in God" yet then blame all evils on this "non existent entity", but on the next hand, give no credit to this same God they "don't believe in" for all the good in the world. So God is to be "acknowledged" only to point a negative finger at, but ignored and not acknowledged when it comes to the blessings in life.

#128 ikester7579

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 04:35 AM

Good response Ron.  It's interesting that one can claim "no belief in God" yet then blame all evils on this "non existent entity", but on the next hand, give no credit to this same God they "don't believe in"  for all the good in the world.  So God is to be "acknowledged" only to point a negative finger at, but ignored and not acknowledged when it comes to the blessings in life.

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It's because they want a genie instead of a God.

#129 Bex

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 12:49 PM

It's because they want a genie instead of a God.

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A genie that has no laws and won't judge us after we're dead :lol:

#130 Levi

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 04:02 PM

I have done quite a bit of looking into the issues surrounding thyroid disease because my mother suffers from it and it nearly killed her. It is an auto immune disease aka AID.

I have also spend time in the third world and made some observations about the overall general health of the people in those countries.

I have heard several things that seem to line up with what I have seen with my eyes and what I consider to be inline with the truth.

1, HIV is prevalent in groups that have an exceptionally high rate of parasitic infections

2, There are over 120 parasites that can host in the human body

3, Some parasites are extremely well adapted to overcoming the human immune system

4, Once a person suffers from a parasitic infection that is not addressed the immune system starts to go into overdrive and eventually begins to lose the fight, when this happens more and more types of parasites begin to take advantage and take up host.

5, This is well documented and the medical fraternity term it "opportunistic" parasitic infection.

6, Before the hiv epidemic hit the H*mos*xual population and American doctor produced a paper warning of an impending parasitic endemic in the H*mos*xual population of New York

7, The two are related in some shape or form, there has been reports of cancer "tumors" turning out to be clumps of calcified parasites.

8, I do not trust pharmaceutical companies to produce cures, this is bad business over producing pills that prolong.

9,I have heard stories from people in the third world and in the first world of anti parasitic remidies that have cured people form malaria to aids and cancer.

There is a video on youtube by a doctor who has continued the heridic study into the "cancer parasite" that was turned away from nearly 100 years ago. Go have a look search for "cancer parasite" it is extremly coincidental to say the least, both in that these observations can be made and that there is non funded research and medical evidences stretching back nearly one hundred years. hmmmmm

#131 Levi

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Posted 09 August 2011 - 04:21 PM

Oh dear how silly of me, I just noted that the evolutionists have now jumped on this and are calling it carcinogenesis! Lying mongrels, this knowledge has been around for decades and doctors where poo pooed and boo'd down over it,now they claim they have cracked it with evolutionyary study and its a new speciation. Makes me so mad sometimes!

#132 Quaker Reason

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 04:08 PM

You guys who don't believe that HIV causes AIDS are in the same boat (percentage wise) as the people who deny the holocaust and those who believe the world is still flat.

#133 MarkForbes

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 05:11 PM

You guys who don't believe that HIV causes AIDS are in the same boat (percentage wise) as the people who deny the holocaust and those who believe the world is still flat.

Yes and "evolution deniers" are also a minority and so are the "climate deniers". As long as they can bring some evidence (or counter evidence, demolish evidence) and argue it sound I am fine with it.
People that die from Aids die from a broad spectrum of symptoms. That suggests that there could also be something different concerning the causalities, when compared with diseases that follow a very narrow path of development.

#134 ikester7579

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Posted 04 January 2012 - 06:05 PM

You guys who don't believe that HIV causes AIDS are in the same boat (percentage wise) as the people who deny the holocaust and those who believe the world is still flat.


I find the flat earth remark ironic coming from a fellow YECer.

Here are 2 videos on HIV in case someone does not understand it:





What is a possible cause of aids?


Ever heard of Xenotransplantation? This is where science transplants either organs, or tissue, from an animal into a human. This was popular back in the early 60's, because science was really working on proving evolution (our relationship with the chimps, apes, babbons, etc...). If the transplants would have worked, they would have used this as evidence for evolution and our relation to chimps through evolution of DNA. Here is a history of how many times this was attempted. Keep in mind that the first recognised cases of AIDS occurred in the USA in the early 1980s. 20 years after the first experiments with Xenotransplantation, which is more than enough time for a quick mutating virus like aids to adapt to the new human systems..
  • 1963-1964
Dr. Keith Reemtsma, a surgeon at Tulane University in New Orleans, transplants thirteen chimpanzee kidneys into humans. Twelve of the patients survive between nine and sixty days. One patient, however, survives for nine months on primitive immunosuppression drugs with no signs of rejection.
  • 1964
While at the University of Colorado, Dr. Thomas Starzl transplants six baboon kidneys into humans. Survival rates range between nineteen and 98 days, with most patients dying of infections.
  • 1977
Dr. Christian Barnard, the South African surgeon who had performed the first human heart allotransplant in 1967, attempts to use chimpanzee and baboon hearts as bridge organs in patients who had undergone unsuccessful open heart surgery. The recipient of the baboon heart dies after six hours, while the recipient of the chimpanzee heart survives for four days before it is rejected.
  • 1984
Dr. Leonard Bailey leads a group of surgeons who transplant a baboon heart into a newborn infant, known as "Baby Fae," who was born with a poorly developed left side of her heart. She is treated with cyclosporine, an immunosuppressive drug that greatly increased survival rates in allotransplants, and survives for twenty days before the heart is rejected. Some have speculated that blood type incompatibility between Baby Fae and the donor baboon may have played a role in the rejection process.

Posted Image

Babt fae, a lesson unlearned: http://www.curedisea...90/BabyFae.html

  • 1992
Dr. Thomas Starzl, now at the University of Pittsburgh, transplants a baboon kidney into a patient with AIDS and hepatitis B, because it is believed baboons are resistant to hepatitis B. The patient survives for 70 days, with no evidence of rejection. He dies of an infection his body could not fight off due to heavy immunosuppression. In the fall of 1999 it is discovered that archived blood and tissue samples of the patient contained baboon cytomegalovirus. It remains undetermined whether the virus had infected human cells or whether baboon cells had migrated from the liver into other tissues.
A Polish surgeon transplants a pig heart into a human patient, who survives for less than 24 hours. The cause of death is attributed to the small size of the heart, which could not support the body's circulatory system.
On Christmas Eve, scientists at Imutran deliver the first transgenic pig, which they name Astrid. The group of scientists, led by Dr. David White, had inserted a small amount of human DNA into a fertilized pig egg, in an attempt to create pig organs that would not be rejected by humans.
  • 1993
Dr. Thomas Starzl again attempts transplanting a baboon liver into a patient suffering from hepatitis B. This patient never regains consciousness after the operation, and dies of infection under heavy immunosuppression. Starzl, who had received permission for several more xenotransplant operations, halts his program to perform further research regarding transplant rejection.
  • 1995
Scientists at Diacrin, Inc. receive FDA permission to begin clinical trials using fetal pig neurons to treat patients suffering from Parkinson's disease. These Phase 1 trials when concluded show efficacy and no safety problems, leading to Phase 2 trials in the late 1990s.
In May, scientists from Nextran announce that they have developed transgenic pig hearts that survive as long as 30 hours inside baboons, as compared to the 60 to 90 minute survival time for regular pig hearts. In July, the FDA approves Nextran's proposal to use transgenic pig livers as bridge organs on up to ten patients.
AIDS patient Jeff Getty receives a transplant of baboon bone marrow cells at San Francisco General Hospital, performed by Dr. Suzanne Ilstaad. Because baboon stem cells are resistant to AIDS, the hope was that they would help Getty's bone marrow produce AIDS-fighting immune cells. The baboon cells do not take; they remain in Getty's system for only two weeks after the transplant. He is still alive and blood tests so far have not revealed any baboon viruses in his system.
  • 1997
Professor Robin Weiss discovers that viruses embedded in every pig cell -- known as porcine endogenous retroviruses (PERV) -- can infect human cells in culture. In the journal Nature he reports that each pig cell carries approximately 50 copies of the PERV virus, and that up to three of them are capable of infecting human cells. As a result, in October the FDA halts all clinical trials until researchers can prove they have developed procedures to detect low levels of PERV virus infection. The moratorium is lifted in January 1998.
  • 1998
Professor Fritz Bach of Harvard Medical School and colleagues call for a moratorium on human clinical xenotransplant trials until the public has debated the risk.
  • 1999
The FDA effectively bans use of nonhuman primates in xenotransplants, citing the risk of cross-species infection.
A study of 160 people who had received various pig tissues and/or cells reveals that none had been infected with the PERV virus. The study was conducted by researchers at Imutran, in collaboration with the CDC and reported in the journal Nature science.
  • 2000
Scientists at PPL Therapeutics in Scotland announce in the journal Nature that they have cloned five piglets for the first time. A team of Japanese scientists announces in the journal Science that they have also cloned a piglet using a different method
Scientists at Infigin announce in the journal Nature Biotechnology that they have produced two litters of transgenic, cloned pigs.
In the journal Nature, Dr. Daniel Salomon of the Scripps Research Institute announces the results of a study which found transmission of the PERV virus during a transplant of pig pancreatic cells into heavily immunosuppressed diabetic mice. This finding is the first evidence of cross-species transmission of a retrovirus during a transplant. Salomon found that the mice developed PERV infections that lasted for as long as two months before going dormant.
The British animal rights organization Uncaged Campaigns receives leaked documents of an Imutran study of the survivability of pig organs in primates over a five-year period. The study showed the average survival time was thirteen days, with a quarter of the primates dying within two days.
The International Society for Heart and Lung Transplantation issues a report which advises that clinical xenotransplantation trials should not be undertaken until authorities have determined a minimal virus risk, and until 60% of pig organs survive in non-human primates for a minimum of three months. However, they conclude "Xenotransplantation has the potential to solve the problem of donor organ supply, and therefore research in this field should be actively encouraged and supported."
  • 2001
The United Kingdom Xenotransplantation Regulatory Authority (UKXIRA) publishes its third annual report, which states "Although alternative therapies are in development, xenotransplantation may still offer the prospect of a viable treatment within a worthwhile time frame. However, on the basis of current evidence, whole-organ xenotransplantation, as a solution to the ongoing shortage of organs for transplant, appears to be some way off." They conclude that they do not support a moratorium on xenotransplantation, and that until the infection risk is understood, they will assess particular procedures on a case-by-case basis.
  • 2001, March
Preliminary analysis of Phase 2 controlled trials treating Parkinson's disease patients with injected pig neuro cells indicate a setback. Although there were improvements, the study found no difference in the improvements between the patients who had been treated with the pig cells and those who had a placebo treatment.

Reference: http://www.pbs.org/w...m/etc/cron.html


Could this be a cause of the aids virus?

In February 1999 it was announced that a group of researchers from the University of Alabama had studied frozen tissue from a chimpanzee and found that the simian virus it carried (SIVcpz) was almost identical to HIV-1. The chimpanzee came from a sub-group of chimpanzees known as Pan troglodytes troglodytes, which were once common in west-central Africa.
It is claimed by the researchers that this shows that these chimpanzees were the source of HIV-1, and that the virus at some point crossed species from chimpanzees to human. However, it was not necessarily clear that chimpanzees were the original reservoir for HIV-1 because chimpanzees are only rarely infected with SIVcpz.
The findings of this 10-year long research into the origin and evolution of HIV by Paul Sharp of Nottingham University and Beatrice Hahn of the University of Alabama were published in 2003. They concluded that wild chimps became infected simultaneously with two simian immunodeficiency viruses (SIVs) which had "viral s@x" to form a third virus capable of infecting humans and causing AIDS.
Professor Sharp and his colleagues discovered that the chimp virus was an amalgam of the SIV infecting red-capped mangabeys and the virus found in greater spot-nosed monkeys. They believe that the hybridisation took place inside chimps that had become infected with both strains of SIV after hunting and killing the two smaller species of monkey.

The origins of HIV and AIDS: http://www.avert.org...in-aids-hiv.htm

#135 Quaker Reason

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 12:13 AM

Bible has never stated that the world is flat.

#136 MarkForbes

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 04:01 AM

Bible has never stated that the world is flat.

In fact it seems that was never ever part of any standard cosmology. In the time of Columbus and before educated people generally believed in the spheric shape of the Earth.

The problem with the issue at hand is that publicly and pharma funded academia did jump on the HIV-causes-AIDS causality at a very early age. Alternative explanations were shunned and research was funneled in a specific direction that way. But what if the causality is different? In that case research is prevented from detecting, explaining and documenting it. HIV critics may accepting the existence of HIV and also that there is a correlation between the HIV and AIDS, the big question is however the causality.

And as said, there is a broad complex of symptoms, who says there isn't a broad spectrum of causes as well. Ikester pointing to some paths that should be considered. Interestingly, in the Western world AIDS seems to be more linked to h*m*s*xuality, drug abuse and blood transfusion, while in Africa it seems to be more related to promiscuity in general.

#137 ikester7579

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 06:04 PM

Bible has never stated that the world is flat.


And then why would you use that statement? You see atheists use that to try and discredit YECs by calling us flat earthers. Now since you claim YEC and now used that comment makes me wonder about your world view of YEC. We generally don;t have YECs calling another YEC a flat earth believer. The last time it happened it turned out to be someone posing as something they were not.

#138 Quaker Reason

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Posted 05 January 2012 - 06:11 PM

And then why would you use that statement? You see atheists use that to try and discredit YECs by calling us flat earthers. Now since you claim YEC and now used that comment makes me wonder about your world view of YEC. We generally don;t have YECs calling another YEC a flat earth believer. The last time it happened it turned out to be someone posing as something they were not.

Oh I see what the problem is here. I was saying that those who don't believe HIV causes AIDS are in the same numbers percentage wise as flat earth, etc. I don't remember but I think less than 0.4% of people believe the world is flat still.

#139 MarkForbes

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 05:18 AM

Oh I see what the problem is here. I was saying that those who don't believe HIV causes AIDS are in the same numbers percentage wise as flat earth, etc. I don't remember but I think less than 0.4% of people believe the world is flat still.

That still is an appeal to herd instinct or ad populum in reverse.

A bigger problem then thinking what causes it is how some people think one can cure it:
http://www.sciencein...pril/virgin.htm




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