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Why Not Take The Bible Literally?


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#21 Adam Nagy

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 07:24 AM

My usage of the word KNOW has no hidden agenda. I'm simply asking a question.

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John, you are going to have a vary frustrating stay here if you can't have some candor and answer questions. You did not address what I asked. You bypassed it, assuming that we both should be looking at things the same way. Is this a safe assumption? Before any of your questions can be answered about knowing something, isn't it fair for me to determine how you have decided to go about knowing anything?

You see, I've discovered that there is a very tricky intellectual playground, conscious or sub-conscious, that is used by people to shift epistemological goalposts around based on predetermined desires. So go back to my original post and tell us what foundational approach is at work here...

Your use of the word 'know' above peaks my curiosity. What do you mean by 'know'? Is this coming from someone who has a relativistic mindset or do you have actual epistemological criteria that are reasonable for finding truth? Do you even believe in things being objectively true or do you believe truth is an illusory thing conjured by the mind?

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You see there are four questions I would like answered to get to know you, for starters, and it will help us to keep from chasing our proverbial tails:

1. What do you mean by 'know' and is this coming from someone who has a relativistic mindset?

2. Do you have actual epistemological criteria that are reasonable for finding truth?

3. Do you believe in things being objectively true?

4. Do you believe truth is an illusory thing conjured by the mind?

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 07:52 AM

Adam,

I'm not skirting your questions.

By 'know', I take the word from it's root, knowledge.

I KNOW that the grass is green, because someone in the past detrmined what green is, and the colour of grass coresponded to what was designated green.

I kniow that the War of 1812 was fought to a stalemate because of the drain on resources the British Government due to the Iberian War. I know this because I have studied the Georgian period in depth. Documented facts from both sides of the conflict have allowed myself and previous historians to come to this conclsuion of knowledge.

I know the Earth is a Sphere because I have travelled Scotland-Scotland by travelling East through Europe, Asia, and North America. My own personal evidence collorates with the evidence of others wiser than I.

I'm a simple man. Something is either true or it isn't. It's real or it isn't.

I've never been to the Taj Mahal but I know it's real because others have felt and seen the Taj Mahal and recorded it's physical image.

I don't believe in the Sidhe (despite writing about them), as no-one has ever recorded or seen a Sidhe, therefore the Sidhe are not real.

Reality and truth in my humble opinion are interchangable, however if one of my Celtic cousins were to tell me that they believed in the Sidhe, I would respect their belief regardless of whether I found the concept to be alien.

If on the other hand someone told me that they didn't believe the taj Mahal was real, I would have to point them in the direction of the evidence that the Taj mahal exists as a physical entity.

I'm sorry if I'm not being cerebral enough.

I say what I think, and I believe what I believe.

#23 Adam Nagy

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 08:01 AM

Thanks, John. That was a good start. I want you to feel comfortable here, but we'll all have a better experience if we are as personal as a forum allows. There is no sense being too abstract. I like talking with people about ideas that are tangible not just abstract. Thanks for the response.

#24 ikester7579

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 12:15 PM

I never said the Bible was off, nor do I claim to be an expert in astro-physics, geology, paleantology, or theology.

All I was saying in my post is that the Bible was written by man, and even the most conservtive Christian, Jew, or Muslim must agree that man is a being of faults, ergo a book which was written by MAN was open to mis-representation and manipulation, as well as mis-translation, regardless of whether it was divinly inpired or not.

Men decided what was and was not included in the NT.

With those potential flaws, in my opinion the Bible should be treated as a guide and not a literal interpretation.

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With all due respect, if this is all you got, it's quite lame.

If God cannot control His creation in at least one interpretation to keep His word true, then He is not God. So since you made the claim, prove it. If you cannot then you are speaking of things you know not of.

And don't get offended either. I get told everyday that the reason I don't "believe" in evolution is because I don't understand it. So now I'm applying the same logic back to you.

Do yo find it kinda strange that knowledge of things not known yet were being written down in such a book? You won't find this type of information in any other religion that can be traced back unto it's interpretation.

Question: Are you an expert Bible scoffer?

#25 the totton linnet

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 01:55 PM

Adam,

I'm not skirting your questions.

By 'know', I take the word from it's root, knowledge.

I KNOW that the grass is green, because someone in the past detrmined what green is, and the colour of grass coresponded to what was designated green.

I kniow that the War of 1812 was fought to a stalemate because of the drain on resources  the British Government due to the Iberian War. I know this because I have studied the Georgian period in depth. Documented facts from both sides of the conflict have allowed myself and previous historians to come to this conclsuion of knowledge.

I know the Earth is a Sphere because I have travelled Scotland-Scotland by travelling East through Europe, Asia, and North America. My own personal evidence collorates with the evidence of others wiser than I.

I'm a simple man. Something is either true or it isn't. It's real or it isn't.

I've never been to the Taj Mahal but I know it's real because others have felt and seen the Taj Mahal and recorded it's physical image.

I don't believe in the Sidhe (despite writing about them), as no-one has ever recorded or seen a Sidhe, therefore the Sidhe are not real.

Reality and truth in my humble opinion are interchangable, however if one of my Celtic cousins were to tell me that they believed in the Sidhe, I would respect their belief regardless of whether I found the concept to be alien.

If on the other hand someone told me that they didn't believe the taj Mahal was real, I would have to point them in the direction of the evidence that the Taj mahal exists as a physical entity.

I'm sorry if I'm not being cerebral enough.

I say what I think, and I believe what I believe.

View Post

*
You say you know the Taj Mahal on the evidence of others, why not use that criteria with the scriptures? why is the testimony of Peter or John or Paul who was at first the arch enemy of the church, why should you dicount their witness? they say Jesus is alive. I say He is alive, He brought my spirit to newness of life. Have YOU been born again? untold millions claim to have been born again, all claim their sins have been forgiven through the cross, a new peace and joy has been their experience. For example John Wesley says that during a prayer meeting in Aldersgate St. London "my heart was strangely warmed and I knew that He had borne away my sins, even mine" I remember when this happened to me. Has He washed YOUR sins away? have you recieved new life in your spirit?
The way we know the bible is God's word is by proving in our own lives it is so, by doing what He tells us to do. De_Skudd will answer the historical questions [where is Dee?] but I can affirm my own witness He is alive.

#26 Adam Nagy

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 02:06 PM

De_Skudd, is MIA for a little while but his work is right at hand...

http://www.evolution...?showtopic=1957

#27 Guest_Alcatraz_*

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 05:07 AM

With all due respect, if this is all you got, it's quite lame.

If God cannot control His creation in at least one interpretation to keep His word true, then He is not God. So since you made the claim, prove it. If you cannot then you are speaking of things you know not of.

And don't get offended either. I get told everyday that the reason I don't "believe" in evolution is because I don't understand it. So now I'm applying the same logic back to you.

Do yo find it kinda strange that knowledge of things not known yet were being written down in such a book? You won't find this type of information in any other religion that can be traced back unto it's interpretation.

Question: Are you an expert Bible scoffer?

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No, I'm not an 'expert Bible scoffer', and I don't think I have said anything other than positive about the Bible.

I also think that there are other religions which can claim to trace their information in the same manner as Christians and the Bible, such as Islam and the Qu'ran.

You say you know the Taj Mahal on the evidence of others, why not use that criteria with the scriptures? why is the testimony of Peter or John or Paul who was at first the arch enemy of the church, why should you dicount their witness? they say Jesus is alive. I say He is alive, He brought my spirit to newness of life. Have YOU been born again? untold millions claim to have been born again, all claim their sins have been forgiven through the cross, a new peace and joy has been their experience. For example John Wesley says that during a prayer meeting in Aldersgate St. London "my heart was strangely warmed and I knew that He had borne away my sins, even mine" I remember when this happened to me. Has He washed YOUR sins away? have you recieved new life in your spirit?
The way we know the bible is God's word is by proving in our own lives it is so, by doing what He tells us to do. De_Skudd will answer the historical questions [where is Dee?] but I can affirm my own witness He is alive.


Sorry, mate. Whilst I admire the strength of your convictions, most of that post was sermonised rhetoric, and did not relate to any of my points.

The Taj Mahal exists as a fact. I could get on a plane tomorrow and fly to India and see the Taj Mahal for myself.

The divinity of the Bible (the reason for its literal interpretation) is based on faith.

You have that faith, and I admire, and respect that, but please let us not confuse faith with fact, especially when there is no tangible, imperical evidence that the Bible was NOT mis-represented or manipulated by its flawed human authors. Unless of course you believe that those whoe wrote the Bible were perfect.

??

#28 Arch

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 06:52 AM

If God cannot control His creation in at least one interpretation to keep His word true, then He is not God.

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Doesn't this imply that God will periodically remove mankinds freewill? I thought you believed otherwise?

Regards,

Arch.

#29 Adam Nagy

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 07:01 AM

Doesn't this imply that God will periodically remove mankinds freewill? I thought you believed otherwise?

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Ask Jonah if his freewill was removed.

#30 CTD

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 03:11 PM

You have that faith, and I admire, and respect that, but please let us not confuse faith with fact, especially when there is no tangible, imperical evidence that the Bible was NOT mis-represented or manipulated by its flawed human authors. Unless of course you believe that those whoe wrote the Bible were perfect.

??

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Tangible evidence? Prove a negative? Why don't you stop propagandizing and say things that make sense?

"??" indeed!

#31 Arch

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 06:04 PM

Ask Jonah if his freewill was removed.

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Was Jonah there when the Bible was put together? Coz that's what I was refering to.

Regards,

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#32 Adam Nagy

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 06:18 PM

Was Jonah there when the Bible was put together? Coz that's what I was refering to.

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Well, there is an OT book written about his calling on his life as a prophet. He was a resistant prophet and yet he obeyed the LORD. So grab yourself a Bible and you can read the entire book of Jonah in about fifteen minutes. When you're done, tell us if his freewill was ever once violated. :blink:

#33 Arch

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 06:40 PM

Well, there is an OT book written about his calling on his life as a prophet. He was a resistant prophet and yet he obeyed the LORD. So grab yourself a Bible and you can read the entire book of Jonah in about fifteen minutes. When you're done, tell us if his freewill was ever once violated. :blink:

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I'm actually at my parents place this weekend so I don't have access to my Bible. If you think it's really worth it I can look it up online though.

But I'm still not sure why I'm looking this up. ikester suggested that the original compilers of the Bible may not have had free will. This has nothing to do with Jonah.

"If God cannot control His creation in at least one interpretation to keep His word true, then He is not God."

By the sounds of it God can give and take free will as He sees fit. He very well may have chosen to give Jonah free will, but by ikester's statement it seems as though God removed that free will from those compiling the Bible. I was under the impression God did not do this?

Regards,

Arch.

#34 the totton linnet

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 07:00 PM

No, I'm not an 'expert Bible scoffer', and I don't think I have said anything other than positive about the Bible.

I also think that there are other religions which can claim to trace their information in the same manner as Christians and the Bible, such as Islam and the Qu'ran.
Sorry, mate. Whilst I admire the strength of your convictions, most of that post was sermonised rhetoric, and did not relate to any of my points.

The Taj Mahal exists as a fact. I could get on a plane tomorrow and fly to India and see the Taj Mahal for myself.

The divinity of the Bible (the reason for its literal interpretation) is based on faith.

You have that faith, and I admire, and respect that, but please let us not confuse faith with fact, especially when there is no tangible, imperical evidence that the Bible was NOT mis-represented or manipulated by its flawed human authors. Unless of course you believe that those whoe wrote the Bible were perfect.

??

View Post

*
You'd better believe it was sermonised rhetoric, just the kind you are giving out, and God exists as a fact too and you could prove it more easily than you can prove that the Taj Mahal exists, if you ever wanted to, just open a bible at the place where it tells you to humble yourself before the mighty hand of God, repent and believe. You would soon find out that faith is a little more complex than mere human knowledge and when you have it a lot more sure too. And for preciousness not remotely comparable.
I had no intention of relating to your points, I'm telling you what I've got. Your knowledge will perish with you, what I've got is living.

#35 ikester7579

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 07:36 PM

No, I'm not an 'expert Bible scoffer', and I don't think I have said anything other than positive about the Bible.

I also think that there are other religions which can claim to trace their information in the same manner as Christians and the Bible, such as Islam and the Qu'ran.

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If you knew anything about the Chritian faith and the Quran (Islam), you would also know that one was a branch off the other in the time of Abraham. The Christian Bible stuck with the story of Abraham going through Issac. Islam branched off of Abraham going through Ishmael. That is why the creation story is nearly the same. But was changed just enough so that their version would not seem related to ours.

But the info and knowledge of certain things have been omitted, so in that aspect it's not the same. And basically bringing this up is your attempt to dodge a direct question because you know the answer to what was asked would make you ponder God. And the group you are associated with does not allow such things.

#36 Guest_Alcatraz_*

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 09:03 AM

*
You'd better believe it was sermonised rhetoric, just the kind you are giving out, and God exists as a fact too and you could prove it more easily than you can prove that the Taj Mahal exists, if you ever wanted to, just open a bible at the place where it tells you to humble yourself before the mighty hand of God, repent and believe. You would soon find out that faith is a little more complex than mere human knowledge and when you have it a lot more sure too. And for preciousness not remotely comparable.
I had no intention of relating to your points, I'm telling you what I've got. Your knowledge will perish with you, what I've got is living.

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YOU have FAITH that God exists. As I indicated earlier, I applaud that faith and belief.

But to make the statement that it easier to prove that God exists than the Taj Mahal is stretching things.

The fact that the Taj Mahal exists is a statement based on FACT.

The fact that Bible is Divine and infalible is a statement based on FAITH.

#37 Preachbill

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 10:30 AM

YOU have FAITH that God exists. As I indicated earlier, I applaud that faith and belief.

But to make the statement that it easier to prove that God exists than the Taj Mahal is stretching things.

The fact that the Taj Mahal exists is a statement based on FACT.

The fact that Bible is Divine and infalible is a statement based on FAITH.

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Maybe this will help clear up some of the questions or issue's on the Bible.

Apocalyptic Preview-Chain of revelation.

The phrase "the book of revelation" is at once connotative of the apocalypse of John on Patmos, but the whole Bible is the book of revelation from God to man, and is the culmination of a divine pattern and policy of God's communication with man. This chain of revelation, from the voice of God in the garden of Eden to the voice of the blood of Christ on the cross, follows a divine pattern from its forms of communicatin to the compleation of the divne purpose in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Primitive revelation was "oral", when God addressed the patriarchs in direct verbal communication. Then revelation took the form of "theophany"-the manifestation of God in symbols and types and visions. After this, revelaton assumed an "ethnic" character in the formation of the Hewbrew race, the existence of which was but an early form of divine revelation, from which developed the "national" feature of revelation in the establishment and organization of the nation Israel. Finally, revelation reached its "documentary" culmination and was committed to the records of the Old and New Testament. The various parts and portions were gathered into one, the many methods merged into the completed revelation, and the Bible thus becomes the longest thread of thought ever woven in the loom of time.
Hebrews 1:1-2-God spake in time past (the old dispensations) unto the fathers (from Adam to Moses) by the prophets (the agents of ancient revelation) in sundry times (in various parts or portions) and in divers manners (employing many methods of communication), but in the last days (the gospel dispensation) God has spoken unto us by his Son (Jesus the Christ), whom he appointed heir of all things (spoken by the prophets).

#38 ikester7579

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 11:43 AM

Alcztraz,

One more thing. They changed the name of God so that it could not be traced to God's rejection Ishmael because of the mixed bloodline. Having a new god made it to where they could make up their own history and time-line, and seek revenge on all those whom either held the truth about what happened. Or were responsible through their bloodline for what happened.

This is why Islam teaches it's children to hate certain races of people, and certain people just for what they believe. It's a revenge for what has happened to Ishmael because Abraham did not have enough faith to wait upon God for what was promised unto him. So this is a type of holy war that dates back to Abraham. And because the people would rather hate than forgive, it will continue until the end of this world. And there is nothing anyone can do to stop it because this hate is indoctrinated into each generation.

#39 Ron

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 02:02 PM

Doesn't this imply that God will periodically remove mankinds freewill? I thought you believed otherwise?

Regards,

Arch.

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No Archie, man still has free will to write what ever he wants. But God has shown the propensity to not use those who wish not to be used. Jonah could have kept running from God, and eventually God would have used someone else (to Jonah’s ultimate chagrin).

#40 Ron

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 02:16 PM

Was Jonah there when the Bible was put together? Coz that's what I was refering to.

Regards,

Arch.

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What would make you think that Jonah wasn't there as the Bible was being put together?

Jonah Ben-Amittai was a prophet of Israel from the Village of Gath Hepher. He was a prophet somewhere between the time of 793 and 753 BC (during the reign of Jeroboam II). Jesus mentions him in the historical sense in Matt 12:39 – 41, Matt 16:4, Luke 11:29&30 + 32.

So, yes… Jonah was there during the putting together of the Old Testament anyway.




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