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Lake Suigetsu


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#1 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 19 May 2007 - 06:17 PM

I am going to instead present one piece of evidence that the earth's lower age limit is greater than 15,000 years, then, without invoking radiometric dating.  This would effectively demonstrate that the earth is indeed at least this old.  I recognize that this doesn't show the earth is 4.55 billion years old, but demonstrates that it is older than 6,000.


I don't think to many Creationist's are going to be upset if the earth was 10k, or even 15k years old..... Honestly, if it was even 100k years old I don't think too many people are going to keel over.

I humbly request that we carefully go over each piece of evidence individually before we move on to evidence of a young earth or more evidence of an old earth so as to honor the quality over quantity philosophy of this establishment.
The a sample taken from the core of Lake Suigetsu measuring 75 meters deep reveals over 60,000 alternating layers; dark and light.  The light layers have been observed to form annually due to Spring diatom growth.  That is all.


1st off, don't you think it would be pretty amazing that the conditions in that lake remained constant for 70k years?

2nd, you simply don't know what it was like 5000 years ago, and there may have been condistions where the plants blossomed 5 or 6 times a year, and now they only blossom once a year.

So, we really just don't know, but you certainly connot claim any date based on the formation rates of the varves today. You can just say that if things have been the same for so many years then that lake is such and such old, But its still an if, maybe it is, maybe it isnt.

Finally, Guy Berthault has done some experimention shown that you can create these types of sediments with flowing water.

SEDIMENTOLOGY—Experiments on lamination of sediments, resulting from a periodic graded-bedding subsequent to deposition—a contribution to the explanation of lamination of various sediments and sedimentary rocks.

These sedimentation experiments have been conducted in still water with a continuous supply of heterogranular material. A deposit is obtained, giving the illusion of successive beds or laminae. These laminae are the result of a spontaneous, periodic and continuous grading process, which takes place immediately, following the deposition of the heterogranular mixture.

The thickness of the laminae appears to be independent of the speed of sedimentation but increases with extreme differences in the size of the particles in the mixture. Where a horizontal current is involved, thin laminated superposed layers developing laterally in the direction of the current, are observed.

The mixture was fed from the distributor into the test tube of water at three successive speeds of 50, 100 and 150g per hour for identical periods of time. Lamination appeared in the deposit and the thickness did not vary with the sedimentation speed. The original lamination was reproduced with virtually the same thickness (see Figure 6).


You can read about that here:
Lamination with water flow

Terry

#2 Zedekiah Dacorath

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Posted 20 May 2007 - 11:49 AM

I don't think too many Creationists are going to be upset if the earth was 10k, or even 15k years old.....  Honestly, if it was even 100k years old I don't think too many people are going to keel over.

Alright. What do you think is the oldest age a Young Earth Creationist would accept?

1st off, don't you think it would be pretty amazing that the conditions in that lake remained constant for 70k years?

Sure, I think it is fascinating. It doesn't look like it has remained precisely constant, though. Changes in layers give away alleged climate variations.

2nd, you simply don't know what it was like 5000 years ago, and there may have been conditions where the plants blossomed  5 or 6 times a year, and now they only blossom once a year.

I don't know for certain, but I'm fairly sure. What kind of climate conditions would allow for five to six blooms in one year? Assuming there were such conditions, what evidence is there of them? What impact would this have on the local cultures in the past?

So, we really just don't know, but you certainly cannot claim any date based on the formation rates of the varves today.  You can just say that if things have been the same for so many years then that lake is such and such old, But its still an if, maybe it is, maybe it isnt.

If the varves disturbances were consistent with tree rings disturbances , would that help cement the assertion that the varves are at least a semi-accurate lower bound on the age of the earth?

Finally, Guy Berthault has done some experimention shown that you can create these types of sediments with flowing water.
You can read about that here:
Lamination with water flow


These sedimentation experiments have been conducted in still water with a continuous supply of heterogranular material.
We've observed that pollen layers are formed annually (as far back as we have observed, to be fair) because of seasons, not because of their particle size.

A deposit is obtained, giving the illusion of successive beds or laminae.
Even if they have effectively demonstrated that layers such as this can be formed this way doesn't mean that they were all formed this way.
Based on the information table on the page, how can they account for their sediments being thicker than some found in nature?
A look in general :
Lake Suigetsu's varves contain the same sediment, just bands of biological matter changing the color. This experiment doesn't seem to evaluate that.

#3 trilobyte

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Posted 20 May 2007 - 04:41 PM

Here is a great link on experiments that form layers.

#4 Guest_92g_*

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Posted 20 May 2007 - 06:40 PM

I don't know for certain, but I'm fairly sure.  What kind of climate conditions would allow for five to six blooms in one year?  Assuming there were such conditions, what evidence is there of them?  What impact would this have on the local cultures in the past?


Who knows what conditions would alllow it? It doesn't matter, its a possibility, and its speculation either way unless someone was there to record it.

So now were just down too whose speculation we like the best. That's hardly scientific evidence of anything..... The Azaleas in SC are typically thought of as spring bloomers, but depending on the weather, they may blossom 2-3 times a year.

If the varves disturbances were consistent with tree rings disturbances , would that help cement the assertion that the varves are at least a semi-accurate lower bound on the age of the earth?


Perphaps, but what difference does it really make. Dr. Humprey's has established an upper age of the earth around 10k years based the decay rate of the earth's magnetic field, and he's also demonstrated that the earth's probably less than 10k years old based on the helium diffusion rates from zircons.

So, the Suigetsu data if it really shows an earth that's 70k years old is probably misunderstood.....

These sedimentation experiments have been conducted in still water with a continuous supply of heterogranular material.
We've observed that pollen layers are formed annually (as far back as we have observed, to be fair) because of seasons, not because of their particle size.


The effects were also produced in flowing currents:

When deposition took place in a water flow, the lamination phenomenon was also observed. The geometry of lamination was modified by the water flow, but the latter was not the cause of the modification.

The periodic graded laminae were similar to the laminae or varves observed in nature which are interpreted as a superposition of seasonal or annual beds. Their origin, however, was quite different, arising from periodic structuring after deposition.

A deposit is obtained, giving the illusion of successive beds or laminae.
Even if they have effectively demonstrated that layers such as this can be formed this way doesn't mean that they were all formed this way.

They even took a sample with diatomic particles, broke them up, and put them through the experiment, and reproduced the original stratification.

A diatomite from Auvergne shows lamination (see Figure 5). Reduced to its elementary particles it was calibrated by a cyclone and particles of at least 80 microns were selected. Examination by microscope confirmed that the majority of the diatoms were unbroken. The larger particles were coloured with methylene blue and then mixed with the smaller particles.

The mixture was fed from the distributor into the test tube of water at three successive speeds of 50, 100 and 150g per hour for identical periods of time. Lamination appeared in the deposit and the thickness did not vary with the sedimentation speed. The original lamination was reproduced with virtually the same thickness (see Figure 6).

In the end it doesn't really matter.... The simple fact of the matter is that there is more than one way to form such laminates, and they can formed quickly. I don't know how they formed, and if you want to believe they took 70k years your welcome to that opinion. I'm sure that if enough people put their minds to finding an alternative they could find it, there just aren't enough people interested.....

So, there is really not much to be excited about here, at least in my opinion...

Terry

#5 Zedekiah Dacorath

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Posted 21 May 2007 - 01:39 PM

Who knows what conditions would alllow it?  It doesn't matter, its a possibility, and its speculation either way unless someone was there to record it.
So now were just down too whose speculation we like the best.  That's hardly scientific evidence of anything.....  The Azaleas in SC are typically thought of as spring bloomers, but depending on the weather, they may blossom 2-3 times a year.

I'm going to have to appeal again to current conditions at the very least hinting at the past if there is no difference in the varves that formed last year or the ones that allegedly were formed 10,000 years ago.
I'll admit that such favorable weather can also cause more than one tree ring to form, but the difference between two rings in one year and one ring can be determined by their proximity and coloration.

Perphaps, but what difference does it really make.  Dr. Humprey's has established an upper age of the earth around 10k years based the decay rate of the earth's magnetic field, and he's also demonstrated that the earth's probably less than 10k years old based on the helium diffusion rates from zircons.

If it is the same to you, I would rather not get off topic, which I already did by introducing the tree ring suggestion. (Sorry!)


So, the Suigetsu data if it really shows an earth that's 70k years old is probably misunderstood.....

The effects were also produced in flowing currents:

When deposition took place in a water flow, the lamination phenomenon was also observed. The geometry of lamination was modified by the water flow, but the latter was not the cause of the modification.

The periodic graded laminae were similar to the laminae or varves observed in nature which are interpreted as a superposition of seasonal or annual beds. Their origin, however, was quite different, arising from periodic structuring after deposition.

They even took a sample with diatomic particles, broke them up, and put them through the experiment, and reproduced the original stratification.

A diatomite from Auvergne shows lamination (see Figure 5). Reduced to its elementary particles it was calibrated by a cyclone and particles of at least 80 microns were selected. Examination by microscope confirmed that the majority of the diatoms were unbroken. The larger particles were coloured with methylene blue and then mixed with the smaller particles.

The mixture was fed from the distributor into the test tube of water at three successive speeds of 50, 100 and 150g per hour for identical periods of time. Lamination appeared in the deposit and the thickness did not vary with the sedimentation speed. The original lamination was reproduced with virtually the same thickness (see Figure 6).

I went for the still water statement because, if memory serves, the lake is relatively still.

Based on these experiments, what point in time do you think all of the layers formed rapidly/would no longer correspond to the varve/year idea? What conditions would be right for the varves to form rapidly with the appropriate amount of diatoms?

In the end it doesn't really matter....  The simple fact of the matter is that there is more than one way to form such laminates, and they can formed quickly.  I don't know how they formed, and if you want to believe they took 70k years your welcome to that opinion.  I'm sure that if enough people put their minds to finding an alternative they could find it, there just aren't enough people interested.....
So, there is really not much to be excited about here, at least in my opinion...

Fair enough, I suppose.




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