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Matter And Stuff


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#1 trilobyte

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 07:30 AM

A quick question for our evo friends...

Has the "stuff" (matter) of the universe always existed, that is, is it ...eternal... or was it created?

#2 jason78

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 07:19 AM

A quick question for our evo friends...

Has the "stuff" (matter) of the universe always existed, that is, is it ...eternal... or was it created?

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Thats an avenue of ongoing scientific investigation. Also, why have you only limited yourself to two possibilities?

#3 trilobyte

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Posted 19 August 2007 - 09:24 AM

Thats an avenue of ongoing scientific investigation.  Also, why have you only limited yourself to two possibilities?

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Do you have a third?

#4 jason78

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Posted 19 August 2007 - 10:40 AM

They could be spontaneously generated and then decay. There are lots of possibilities.

#5 4jacks

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 12:35 PM

Thats an avenue of ongoing scientific investigation. 

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I don't believe that it is an avenue of ongoing scientific investigation. If it was scientist would have to have some clue on how to investigate it and there would be actual scientist to invest the question.

As it is right now, no one is investigating it because there are no means of investigation.

Unless of course I am wrong and you know of a group who are investigating this and how they intend to do that?



They could be spontaneously generated and then decay.  There are lots of possibilities.

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I’m sorry, but that is not a possibility.
The Law of Conservation of Energy/Matter states that energy/Matter cannot be created or destroyed, but can change its form.

#6 trilobyte

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 02:16 PM

They could be spontaneously generated and then decay.  There are lots of possibilities.

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How is that a 3rd?

#7 jason78

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 04:35 PM

How is that a 3rd?

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It's something you didn't think of.

So where is this arguement going anyway?

#8 HatsOffAndApplause

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 01:14 AM

Well, yeah, this is an ongoing scientific investigation. And yes, we do have the means to study it. Granted, we can't go back in time and look at the beginning of the universe, if such an event actually exists, but we can make hypotheses and test these. For example, you know those giant particle accelerators in Europe? Those are used to re-create conditions similar to the beginning of the universe.

Here's an article from Wiki

Here's a journal article on the beginning of the universe.

Another article on ongoing investigation

Problem is, our technology limits the amount of energy we can supply to a particle. But, fortunately, these particle accelerators are getting stronger. And with better technology comes the ability to better research these conditions.

And yes, the law of conservation of energy does say that energy cannot be created or destroyed. But, if we take the entire universe as our system, it is possible that the net energy of our universe is zero. Hence all the research into 'dark energy.' It's also possible that something existed prior to 'The Big Bang.' Maybe our universe cycles every trillion years or so, springing back on itself in an infinite loop. But, there is not yet a way to show this, for if there existed anything prior to the big bang, all information was destroyed.

#9 4jacks

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 11:03 AM

Well, yeah, this is an ongoing scientific investigation.  And yes, we do have the means to study it.  Granted, we can't go back in time and look at the beginning of the universe, if such an event actually exists, but we can make hypotheses and test these.  For example, you know those giant particle accelerators in Europe?  Those are used to re-create conditions similar to the beginning of the universe.

Here's an article from Wiki

Here's a journal article on the beginning of the universe.

Another article on ongoing investigation

Problem is, our technology limits the amount of energy we can supply to a particle.  But, fortunately, these particle accelerators are getting stronger.  And with better technology comes the ability to better research these conditions.


The Problem in your articles is that they are all dividing by zero and pretending like it is a real expression or a concept that represents reality in the formation of the universe. There are no point singularities. You can not divide by zero.


And yes, the law of conservation of energy does say that energy cannot be created or destroyed.  But, if we take the entire universe as our system, it is possible that the net energy of our universe is zero.  Hence all the research into 'dark energy.'  It's also possible that something existed prior to 'The Big Bang.'  Maybe our universe cycles every trillion years or so, springing back on itself in an infinite loop.  But, there is not yet a way to show this, for if there existed anything prior to the big bang, all information was destroyed.

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If something existed before the "big bang" the law of conservation states that it would still exist. No matter how big your bang is.

Even if all the net energy in the universe is equal to zero, that doesn't make the matter dissappear.

So anyway the OP's orginal question still stands out to the evolutionist. Where did all the matter come from?

#10 trilobyte

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 05:35 PM

It's something you didn't think of.

So where is this arguement going anyway?

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Translation....I never had a 3rd. I just typed it because I thought it sounded good and nobody would call me on it.

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 07:36 PM

Since the theory of evolution makes no mention whatsoever of where all the matter in the universe came from, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that science is just not sure yet.

Now I have a question, where did God come from?

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 01:14 AM

God is and always was and always will be. He didnt come from anywhere,

#13 4jacks

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 08:01 AM

Since the theory of evolution makes no mention whatsoever of where all the matter in the universe came from, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that science is just not sure yet. 

Now I have a question, where did God come from?

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Fortunate for us christians the bible has an answer.

I'm going to take the time to type it up, even though I don't think you care and no one will read it.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavans and the earth......

There was no PLACE for God to come FROM. So God didn't come from anywhere.

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 11:28 AM

There was no PLACE for God to come FROM. So God didn't come from anywhere.

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So my next question to you is this, why couldn't matter, or the universe in general, have always been there?

#15 Dave

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 11:41 AM

So my next question to you is this, why couldn't matter, or the universe in general, have always been there?

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I'm no expert, but I believe the answer to your question could be found in a study of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

"Always" is a really super-powerful word. It doesn't mean "for a long time," or "for a very long time," or even "for a very, very long time." It means absolutely, eternally forever in the past.

So, when a law that is recognized by all scientists without controversy states that eventually the universe will run down, it doesn't leave much room for "always been there."

Which, by the way, is a strong point for Biblical creation.

Dave

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 01:45 PM

But that's where the Big Bang comes in; I was merely proposing a hypothetical to counter the idea that God has always been there. The scientific concensus is that the universe as we know it has not always been there. So indeed, the universe may be "running down" but that is no reason to think that it is not 14 billion years old. The scale of the word "always" as you mentioned is really only matched by the unimaginable immensity of the universe. Simply put, it is going to take a a very long to time for the universe to completely "run down."

That brings me to another interesting question, why isn't God affected by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics?

#17 Dave

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 04:48 PM

The scientific concensus is that the universe as we know it has not always been there.


Well, that takes us right back to the question in the original post. If the universe didn't always exist, there must have been nothing there. So, where did the universe come from?

Possible answers:

1.) Nothing
2.) Something
3.) Special creation

If the answer is number 1, you'd have to be a magician to convince anyone the universe could just spring naturalistically from nothing. Big Bang -- First there was nothing. Then it exploded. Right.

If the answer is number 2, what is that "something?" And how could there be a something if there was nothing?

So, what's keeping folks from believing the logical answer, number 3?

To answer your other question about God, He is not subject to the laws of the universe.

Dave

#18 trilobyte

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 05:13 PM

So my next question to you is this, why couldn't matter, or the universe in general, have always been there?

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The evo theory seems to suggest that...so perhaps you can explain it....or is you theory based upon FAITH?

#19 trilobyte

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 05:14 PM

That brings me to another interesting question, why isn't God affected by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics?

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Because God invented it.

#20 lwj2op2

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 08:04 PM

But that's where the Big Bang comes in; I was merely proposing a hypothetical to counter the idea that God has always been there.  The scientific concensus is that the universe as we know it has not always been there.  So indeed, the universe may be "running down" but that is no reason to think that it is not 14 billion years old.  The scale of the word "always" as you mentioned is really only matched by the unimaginable immensity of the universe.  Simply put, it is going to take a a very long to time for the universe to completely "run down."

That brings me to another interesting question, why isn't God affected by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics?

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He existed before it did and encompasses it.




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