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Matter And Stuff


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#21 Guest_serenity2511_*

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 11:52 PM

Science is simply not completely sure yet where the universe came from and what was there before the Big Bang. Notice I use the word "yet" because science is always progressing. It is absurd to think that humanity will ever know all there is to know about the universe but fortunately that will not stop the inquisitive among us from trying; the polar opposite, it seems, of "God did it." I also think its interesting how two seperate explanations have been offered as to why God is not affected by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics:

He existed before it did and encompasses it.

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And:

Because God invented it.

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A question to Trilobyte, are you saying that inventors cannot be affected by their inventions? What if I build a robot and it ends up harming me in some way?

However, I was able to find this rather interesting article which explains what we call the "big bang" in terms of superstring theory. It is a very interesting read.
article

#22 4jacks

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 12:10 PM

So my next question to you is this, why couldn't matter, or the universe in general, have always been there?

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That would answer the Orginal Question. I wouldn't really agrue with it, but how do other old earth evolutionist feel about that?

If you tell me a rock is 9.23423^100000 years old, you should also have some theory on where it came from or how it came to be.

As far as I know, no other old earthers are teaching that matter is infinitely old.

I like your answer better though, you should put that in the text books !

#23 trilobyte

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 09:02 AM

Science is simply not completely sure yet where the universe came from and what was there before the Big Bang.  Notice I use the word "yet" because science is always progressing.  It is absurd to think that humanity will ever know all there is to know about the universe but fortunately that will not stop the inquisitive among us from trying; the polar opposite, it seems, of "God did it."  I also think its interesting how two seperate explanations have been offered as to why God is not affected by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics:
And:

A question to Trilobyte, are you saying that inventors cannot be affected by their inventions?  What if I build a robot and it ends up harming me in some way?

However, I was able to find this rather interesting article which explains what we call the "big bang" in terms of superstring theory.  It is a very interesting read.
article

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From your link...
Moreover, they say the Big Bang is just the latest in a cycle of cosmic collisions stretching infinitely into the past and into the future.


All this does is then move the question back...where did that matter and stuff that collided come from? Did it always exist or was it created?

Concerning the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics..and your robots...how is the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics going to harm God?

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 01:09 PM

Moreover, they say the Big Bang is just the latest in a cycle of cosmic collisions stretching infinitely into the past and into the future. 
All this does is then move the question back...where did that matter and stuff that collided come from?  Did it always exist or was it created?


The matter just keeps getting destroyed and created again. You also underestimate the effect the idea of multiple dimensions would have on cyclical cosmic collisions. And I feel I must ask, why is the onus on me to provide answers to your questions? I never claimed to definitively know to answer to any of them. You're as capable as I am of researching the answers to your queries.

Concerning the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics..and your robots...how is the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics going to harm God?


Well, if something I created could hypothetically harm me, why can't something God created, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, harm Him? If entropy affects everything, why would God be excused from that?

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#25 trilobyte

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 01:37 PM

That's like asking if God can create a rock so big and heavy that even He can't lift it.

Where are you trying to take this discussion?

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 04:51 PM

That's like asking if God can create a rock so big and heavy that even He can't lift it.

Where are you trying to take this discussion?

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I'm just offering a hypothetical that has to do with the topic of this thread. And I disagree that my question is just like the "rock so heavy..." question because my hypothetical does not require any omnipotent ability to answer. I provided a non-supernatural example of a creator, me, being affected by his creation, a robot. Now, what makes God different? If God is truely outside the laws of nature, how can He affect the natural world at all?

#27 trilobyte

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 10:31 AM

I'm just offering a hypothetical that has to do with the topic of this thread.  And I disagree that my question is just like the "rock so heavy..." question because my hypothetical does not require any omnipotent ability to answer.  I provided a non-supernatural example of a creator, me, being affected by his creation, a robot.  Now, what makes God different?  If God is truely outside the laws of nature, how can He affect the natural world at all?

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Because He made it.

#28 Guest_serenity2511_*

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 10:54 AM

Because He made it.

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Because he made what, exactly?

#29 trilobyte

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 02:41 PM

Everything.

#30 Guest_serenity2511_*

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 05:26 PM

Everything.

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Fair enough. Then answer me this, do you think God is a part of nature or do you think He's outside of it?

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 05:29 PM

Fair enough.  Then answer me this, do you think God is a part of nature or do you think He's outside of it?

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Whatever God is, he something that trancends the physical universe. He exists outside of it, but I think the Bible teaches that he also permeates it, and holds it together.

Terry

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 05:34 PM

If entropy affects everything, why would God be excused from that?


It does not effect him because he is not strictly a material being. Not everything that exists is subject to the laws of physics. E.g. Information exists, and it is not subject the the laws of physics.

In fact without information, life would not be possible, which is why its untenable to hold the position that information came about without God as the author. I.e. information is not a property of matter, so there can never be striclty a materislitic explantion for it, or life.

Terry

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 06:03 PM

Whatever God is, he something that trancends the physical universe.  He exists outside of it, but I think the Bible teaches that he also permeates it, and holds it together.

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So, God exists both within the grasp of and outside of nature? Is He affected by natural processes at all? If not, how can he be affected by natural emotions such as jealousy or rage; examples of which there are myriad in the Bible. If so, then how can He be both omniscient and omnipresent?

I guess what I'm getting at here is, just so we can stay on topic: who designed God? If the answer is, "no one, he was always there." Then why can't the energy of the universe have always been there, infinitely colliding with other three dimensional worlds whose dimensions we cannot see, as is described in the article to which I linked a few posts previous?

In fact without information, life would not be possible, which is why its untenable to hold the position that information came about without God as the author. I.e. information is not a property of matter, so there can never be striclty a materislitic explantion for it, or life.


Information is a construct of humanity; it is merely a way of quantifying and explaining the natural processes which occur all around us. Just as the letter "A" means nothing without a human who speaks English to interpret it. And even if the existance of information proves the existance of a creator, it does not prove the existance of the Judeo-Christian god.

#34 trilobyte

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 06:30 PM

Fair enough.  Then answer me this, do you think God is a part of nature or do you think He's outside of it?

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God (Jesus) is the creator...not the creation.

#35 trilobyte

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 06:33 PM

And even if the existance of information proves the existance of a creator, it does not prove the existance of the Judeo-Christian god.

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That's the job of the bible and the Holy Spirit.
You should study prophecy...some pretty interesting events that have happened and will happen as predicted by the bible.

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 07:02 PM

God (Jesus) is the creator...not the creation.

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So God has always been there?

#37 jason78

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 11:54 AM

Translation....I never had a 3rd. I just typed it because I thought it sounded good and nobody would call me on it.

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Your insult is unbecoming of a christian.

#38 trilobyte

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 06:21 PM

So God has always been there?

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Yes. The bible teaches God has always been there.

I am He who exist.
God is self existent being who posseses intrinsically the power of being, not self created. He has his being of himself, and has no dependence upon any other.

Considering the law of noncontradiction states the concept of self creation violates the law. For something to create itself it must have the ability to be and not to be at the same time. It is impossible to be, before, it is. Hence the contradiction.
It is then easy to reach a conclusion that God is intrinsic due to his very nature. It is by this nature that God is distinguished or identified. He is who exist. Never did He not exist and therfore no need for a creator as some suggest.

God is without termination or finitude, He is free from the succession of time, He recognized a succession of events, but all past present and future events are equally vivid to Him. We as humans are currently “trapped” in our dimension. Only our present and our memories of the past are vivid to us.
People often try to limit Gods intrinsic values to their human fallible finite concepts. They rationalize and correctly realize the materials in the universe needed a creator considering it is a non-thinking “thing”. The Big bang couldn't create itself. The big bang couldn’t think. It couldn’t create order from chaos. Nature can’t design. As we all know, God can think, nature can’t. It is the self existent God who has created the things of nature.

(ref: Ryrie, Sproul, Henry)

#39 trilobyte

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 06:24 PM

jason78,
In the past I have noticed that an evo tactic is to type certain "facts"..because they think they sound good or right.

As to what is becoming or unbecoming of a christian...How would you know?

#40 Guest_serenity2511_*

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 07:18 PM

Yes. The bible teaches God has always been there.


Thank you for a succinct answer to my question. I, however do not accept the bible as the inspired word of any deity so this argument does not really hold much weight.

I am He who exist.
God is self existent being who posseses intrinsically the power of being, not self created.  He has his being of himself, and has no dependence upon any other.

Considering the law of noncontradiction states the concept of self creation violates the law. For something to create itself it must have the ability to be and not to be at the same time. It is impossible to be, before, it is.  Hence the contradiction.
It is then easy to reach a conclusion that God is intrinsic due to his very nature. It is by this nature that God is distinguished or identified. He is who exist. Never did He not exist and therfore no need for a creator as some suggest.

God is without termination or finitude, He is free from the succession of time, He recognized a succession of events, but all past present and future events are equally vivid to Him.  We as humans are currently “trapped” in our dimension.  Only our present and our memories of the past are  vivid to us.
People often try to limit Gods intrinsic values to their human fallible finite concepts.  They rationalize and correctly realize the  materials in the universe needed a creator considering it is a non-thinking “thing”.  The Big bang couldn't create itself.  The big bang couldn’t think.    It couldn’t create order from chaos.  Nature can’t design.   As we all know, God can think, nature can’t.  It is the self existent God who has created the things of nature.



As for the rather lengthy argument you provided, of whose authenticity I was unable to find an verification given the names of the presumed authors you provided, I must admit I am unable to make much sense of it or think of any reason as to why you provided it as evidence of God's eternal existance.

First of all, it is obvious that this argument does not appear in the bible so why you would provide it after saying, "Yes, the bible teaches God has always been there," is a mystery to me.

Now, to the meat of the argument. The entirety of it seems to be based on the assumption that, "God is self existent being who posseses intrinsically the power of being, not self created. He has his being of himself, and has no dependence upon any other," proof of which is never offered. It also includes the assumption that God must somehow be able to both be and not be at the same time since this is a requirement for God's existance not violate the law of contradiction. Not the mention the assumptions that, "God is without termination or finitude, He is free from the succession of time, He recognized a succession of events, but all past present and future events are equally vivid to Him." I really would like to know how the author(s) of this piece came to know so much about God.

Come to think of it, this argument is just one unwarranted assumption after another with a few logical fallacies thrown in for good measure; such as one of my favorites, the "ad populum" fallacy: "As we all know, God can think, nature can’t." All of which lends to me further confusion as to why you reproduced this argument in the first place.

And one more thing, isn't it against forum rules to simply reproduce an argument without offering any comment on it?

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